UK Coalition idiocy of the week

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snowbear:
I guessing you're all part of the something for nothing scumbags. We need money to run these services, money that we simply don't have, and don't give me the whole we can just keep borrowing until we get out of debt crap. The more you borrow the worse it will be in the long run. Do you really want us to end up like Greece and Ireland??

How about we all work a bit harder, stop borrowing and only buy things we can actually afford. The people in this country have gone soft and stupid.

Please Mr government don't take away my benefits I wont be able to afford my sky tv and fags if you do...

I missed the part where this thread was about benefits, it was actually about the coalition ripping the guts out of the countries infrastructure. You know the stuff you actually need to have a functioning society?

Things like the criminal justice system (top to bottom) and emergency services are critically important. But as you want to talk about benefits lets do that, so lets start with the your lack of understanding. The benefits system and the NHS where tied directly into the post war recovery, Britain as a whole wanted a better life for all. Healthcare for those in need and a helping hand for those in poverty. The term "New Jerusalem" was actually used, the idea that bit by bit Britain could build a better country. A perfect vision that can never be carried out perfectly but far better than enforced socialism or very little support at all like we see in some countries.

Its not about "getting something for nothing" its about seeing someone in need and helping them, some do take advantage yes but thats slowly being taken care of. Here is the real kicker though, through no fault of their own anyone here posting in or reading this thread can end up in need. People lose jobs, people suffer horrible illness or accidents and need time to recover before being able to work. It is also a two way street, the people paying the taxes to support people in their time of need benefit too. Everybody in the country benefits from having a society with better health care and less poverty, you only have to look at other relatively wealthy nations that lack social programs to see how better off we are. If you want a vivid example of how bad somewhere can get without social programs and national infrastructure and a general lack of government support check out Novokuznetsk in Russia.

Sleekit:
i'd just like to drop in the tory MP referring to the house of parliament canteen staff as "servants".

http://news.sky.com/story/1039333/tory-mp-chope-calls-commons-staff-servants

it's maybe a bit unfair (ive been known to talk of "public servants" myself...but then that's not what he said...) but i found it funny.

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Seriously!?!

Shit, I went into that thinking it was a comment taken out of context and spun to make it worse than it was, because surely nobody can be that fucking up themselves these days, even a Tory...but no, he just outright referred to them as "servants", and when other MP's questioningly or indignantly called out "servants!?" at him, his response was to say "exactly" and continue talking. And these remarks only minutes after his arguing that corporations should be able to opt-out of the minimum wage.....has this entire fucking party just stepped through a temporal rift from the 1800's?

Well you guys make me chuckle thanks for that. I would really like to know why you think your entitled to ANY benefits at all? If you've previously had a job and you know actually paid some taxes into the system then fine. If You haven't then Id say you should be happy with anything you've gotten.

I propose a new system. How about people that are able to work but choose not to / are picky about where they work can only claim up to the amount of taxes they have actually paid in their lifetime. If people choose to reeducate themselves or are in education would be supported and helped but after that you're on your own.

As for not wanting to clean toilets after uni. I can assure you having no jobs looks worse. At least with cleaning toilets its looks like you're willing to get your hands dirty. People are feel so entitled these days. I believe you should only get out of life what you put in. If your not willing to start at the bottom and work up then good luck but you can rot on the streets for all i care.

@Jtyran It's all part of the same thing, trying to save money. Cuts have to be made somewhere the country cant keep spending way more than its earning. Sure cutting the NHS ect sucks, I'm just making the point that if there wasn't so many people claiming benefits then perhaps they wouldn't need to make such harsh cuts.

What scares me is you lot are actually going to vote labour back in to mess up any progress made and sink us completely.

snowbear:
Well you guys make me chuckle thanks for that. I would really like to know why you think your entitled to ANY benefits at all? If you've previously had a job and you know actually paid some taxes into the system then fine. If You haven't then Id say you should be happy with anything you've gotten.

I propose a new system. How about people that are able to work but choose not to / are picky about where they work can only claim up to the amount of taxes they have actually paid in their lifetime. If people choose to reeducate themselves or are in education would be supported and helped but after that you're on your own.

As for not wanting to clean toilets after uni. I can assure you having no jobs looks worse. At least with cleaning toilets its looks like you're willing to get your hands dirty. People are feel so entitled these days. I believe you should only get out of life what you put in. If your not willing to start at the bottom and work up then good luck but you can rot on the streets for all i care.

@Jtyran It's all part of the same thing, trying to save money. Cuts have to be made somewhere the country cant keep spending way more than its earning. Sure cutting the NHS ect sucks, I'm just making the point that if there wasn't so many people claiming benefits then perhaps they wouldn't need to make such harsh cuts.

What scares me is you lot are actually going to vote labour back in to mess up any progress made and sink us completely.

So you're just going to completely ignore the effort everyone has gone to to demolish your factually-devoid posts and keep spouting the same vacant rhetoric? Good oh, nice to know what kind of poster you are up-front, so we can avoid putting in any effort in the future; maybe you'd have better luck over on the Daily Mail comments section?. I hereby dub thee "British Gorfias".

Magichead:

snowbear:
Well you guys make me chuckle thanks for that. I would really like to know why you think your entitled to ANY benefits at all? If you've previously had a job and you know actually paid some taxes into the system then fine. If You haven't then Id say you should be happy with anything you've gotten.

I propose a new system. How about people that are able to work but choose not to / are picky about where they work can only claim up to the amount of taxes they have actually paid in their lifetime. If people choose to reeducate themselves or are in education would be supported and helped but after that you're on your own.

As for not wanting to clean toilets after uni. I can assure you having no jobs looks worse. At least with cleaning toilets its looks like you're willing to get your hands dirty. People are feel so entitled these days. I believe you should only get out of life what you put in. If your not willing to start at the bottom and work up then good luck but you can rot on the streets for all i care.

@Jtyran It's all part of the same thing, trying to save money. Cuts have to be made somewhere the country cant keep spending way more than its earning. Sure cutting the NHS ect sucks, I'm just making the point that if there wasn't so many people claiming benefits then perhaps they wouldn't need to make such harsh cuts.

What scares me is you lot are actually going to vote labour back in to mess up any progress made and sink us completely.

So you're just going to completely ignore the effort everyone has gone to to demolish your factually-devoid posts and keep spouting the same vacant rhetoric? Good oh, nice to know what kind of poster you are up-front, so we can avoid putting in any effort in the future; maybe you'd have better luck over on the Daily Mail comments section?. I hereby dub thee "British Gorfias".

You actually put effort into that post... all I saw was whining. I didnt see any sources backing up claims that spending more and getting further into debt will do any good what so ever. You also failed to answer my question.

But you enjoy sucking the system dry see if I care.

snowbear:
@Jtyran It's all part of the same thing, trying to save money. Cuts have to be made somewhere the country cant keep spending way more than its earning. Sure cutting the NHS ect sucks, I'm just making the point that if there wasn't so many people claiming benefits then perhaps they wouldn't need to make such harsh cuts.

What scares me is you lot are actually going to vote labour back in to mess up any progress made and sink us completely.

You are eating the shit sandwich the Tories are serving, the cost of welfare is not all that high. For example social services cost more than housing benefit payments. Another example would be the way the cost of the Trident upgrade would pay the entire unemployment benefit bill (at current expenditure) for fourteen years. Finally pensions cost twice as much as,

-Family and children spending
-Unemployment benefit
-Housing benefit
-Social protection R&D
-Social protection

All put together, pensioners obviously deserve that I am just pointing out how the benefit budget is not all that high compared to other areas of spending. You are taking the Tory propaganda and believing it, they like to try and use welfare to divide people into so called "shirkers and workers" to try and cover up the fact that unless you are incredibly wealthy or a business owner they have you bent over as well.

Edit:

snowbear:
I didnt see any sources backing up claims that spending more and getting further into debt will do any good what so ever. You also failed to answer my question.

I am no economist but its fairly well known and researched that expansionary fiscal policy is a better way of dealing with a recession than a contractionary fiscal policy which is better used when a nations debt becomes unserviceable or if growth is too rapid. Despite what the Torys claim the national deficit was high but serviceable and the IMF and various fiscal agencies have told the government time and time again the spending cuts are a bad idea. So where has it left us? The deficit plan is in tatters, spending has actually increased and we are firmly in the grip of a double dip recession.

Want a case of something for nothing? Lets have a look at Mr Osbourne, do you like paying taxes to fund his personal paddock? Or how about him selling his house for 900,000? A house that the British taxpayer contributed 100,000 towards.

That right there is not even self interest, its downright kleptocracy.

Snowbear, you seem to literally be willing to go back to the 1900s in terms of welfare reform. Would I be right, because I think that under those circumstances we're completely right to reject what you say out of hand without having to get into it any further.

snowbear:

Magichead:

snowbear:
Well you guys make me chuckle thanks for that. I would really like to know why you think your entitled to ANY benefits at all? If you've previously had a job and you know actually paid some taxes into the system then fine. If You haven't then Id say you should be happy with anything you've gotten.

I propose a new system. How about people that are able to work but choose not to / are picky about where they work can only claim up to the amount of taxes they have actually paid in their lifetime. If people choose to reeducate themselves or are in education would be supported and helped but after that you're on your own.

As for not wanting to clean toilets after uni. I can assure you having no jobs looks worse. At least with cleaning toilets its looks like you're willing to get your hands dirty. People are feel so entitled these days. I believe you should only get out of life what you put in. If your not willing to start at the bottom and work up then good luck but you can rot on the streets for all i care.

@Jtyran It's all part of the same thing, trying to save money. Cuts have to be made somewhere the country cant keep spending way more than its earning. Sure cutting the NHS ect sucks, I'm just making the point that if there wasn't so many people claiming benefits then perhaps they wouldn't need to make such harsh cuts.

What scares me is you lot are actually going to vote labour back in to mess up any progress made and sink us completely.

So you're just going to completely ignore the effort everyone has gone to to demolish your factually-devoid posts and keep spouting the same vacant rhetoric? Good oh, nice to know what kind of poster you are up-front, so we can avoid putting in any effort in the future; maybe you'd have better luck over on the Daily Mail comments section?. I hereby dub thee "British Gorfias".

You actually put effort into that post... all I saw was whining. I didnt see any sources backing up claims that spending more and getting further into debt will do any good what so ever. You also failed to answer my question.

But you enjoy sucking the system dry see if I care.

What question? "Why are you entitled to benefits"? I didn't answer it because it's a fucking stupid question, with a self-evident answer; the social contract. I earn money, I pay taxes, and some of those taxes are used to pay for social security for the disabled and the unemployed. I do this because, indirectly, a substantial portion of my individual prosperity is dependent on the system as a whole continuing to function. I also do this because having a social security system guarantees that if I myself ever fall on hard times I don't have to worry that I'm going to be thrown in a fucking debtors prison or die of dissentary in a gutter.

And frankly, you're not worth the effort of providing links, if you're so interested(*snort* aye, righto pal, sure) look at the government's own fucking reports on the matter, they're all available on the DWP and ONS websites in PDF form.

Yet you claim you are in uni and would shun a job that you deem unfit for someone of your education. I dont see that as paying into any sort of social contract. Its nothing short of being a selfish theif. You are not fit to be part of any society if all you are going to do is swear your head off and take advantage of others.

snowbear:

@Jtyran It's all part of the same thing, trying to save money. Cuts have to be made somewhere the country cant keep spending way more than its earning. Sure cutting the NHS ect sucks, I'm just making the point that if there wasn't so many people claiming benefits then perhaps they wouldn't need to make such harsh cuts.

What scares me is you lot are actually going to vote labour back in to mess up any progress made and sink us completely.

It's important to understand that a deficit exists not because the country is "spending way more than its [sic] earning". It's that the government is spending more than it deigns to collect in tax revenue, because it prefers borrowing to cutting spending or raising taxes.

It is also important to remember that benefits for the unemployed (not including the old age retired) are a trivial part of the government budget. Minus state pensions, welfare is about 12% of the government budget, or around 4% total national GDP. Of course, much of that 12% isn't going to unemployed people: worker tax credits, child benefits, some disability & carer support, etc. When you get to the actual unemployed, you are down to a sum of perhaps half of that 12%, and maybe even that's too much.

To look at it another way, recessions do necessitate increased welfare: the increase from 2007 to 2012 was from 3% GDP to 4% GDP annually. In the same period, the UK's debt grew from 44% GDP to 85% GDP. Now, I'm pretty sure that at an extra 1% GDP annual spending on welfare for five years does not equate to an extra 41% GDP debt.

Thus, with all the figures above, I would invite you to consider more deeply whether it is remotely realistic that the UK government's debt problems are really due to the drain of unemployed people who can't be bothered working.

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