So, My Family Thinks the Sandy School Shooting Was Set Up By The Government To Create Stricter Laws.

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Uszi:

Go for broke. Throw in a Leprechaun.

... Riding a unicorn...

Well, we all believe some silly things, but being stupid is just, well stupid. As much as I don't care for how the government is run, no, this conspiracy has no weight behind it for one simple reason: Nobody profits from stricter gun laws. That's what every conspiracy should focus on, which corporation and lobbying arm would stand to gain from this. In other words, the 9/11 truthers, the nuts who think 9/11 was planned by the govt. are more valid than this conspiracy because several very powerful corporations with massive lobby arms have profited massively from the actions that resulted and were justified with the tragedy of 9/11. There's no endgame profit, no motive for banning certain kinds of firearms for the people who finance the government. No motive, no conspiracy.

Ask them, very simply, how the government persuades a 20 year old to kill himself?

If a government representative came and offered them billions of dollars to shoot themselves in the head, would any of them do it?

farson135:
Well, don't tell them that the very same day as the shooting the US decided to send 400 troops to Turkey.

You can try and tell them the truth. This incident was not planned by the government but they are using it for political gain. The media did not set up the incident but they are blowing it out of proportion. In other words, the Government and media are manipulating the incident (which makes them assholes) but they are not evil. In other words, instead of trying to blow their views out of the water try and modify them to a more reasonable position.

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Holy crap that's an incredibly reasonable approach to this situation, congrats.
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Xukog:
Yea.....I don't know what to say. My brother and Mother believe it was set up to create a call for stricter gun laws. They have never been like this before. Please help me figure out how to explain how crazy this is.

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Listen to farson, he had a good idea.

evilthecat:
Ask them, very simply, how the government persuades a 20 year old to kill himself?

If a government representative came and offered them billions of dollars to shoot themselves in the head, would any of them do it?

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Ever heard about suicide bombers? People who put on a bunch of explosives and blow themselves up so they could hurt others who were around them in the blast? There's a process to making them able to accept this action and be willing to commit suicide. It can be done. It had been done.

Then again, I don't think the government of the USA did it.

I don't want to say that I necassarily believe this, but the government has done worse things. *Cough*9/11*Cough*

Unfortunately, they aren't alone in that, there's loads of them, and they are harassing people that helped the victims:

http://www.salon.com/2013/01/15/this_man_helped_save_six_children_is_now_getting_harassed_for_it/

...

Takes me back to when people were saying the Howard government orchestrated Port Arthur for the same reasons.

TheIronRuler:
Ever heard about suicide bombers? People who put on a bunch of explosives and blow themselves up so they could hurt others who were around them in the blast? There's a process to making them able to accept this action and be willing to commit suicide.

The conditions required are somewhat unique.

Also, the effectiveness of "training" in rendering a person, particularly a very young person, willing to kill themselves for an abstract cause is hugely overstated in every case where such tactics have been used. To a certain extent this isn't surprising, because such programs require failures to be suppressed. Nearly 70 years after world war 2, the popular view of the special attack corps in Japan is still pretty much indistinguishable from wartime propaganda. Noone has ever wanted to talk about those people who had to be dragged to their cockpits, or who tried to turn their planes around, or who panicked. For the most part, noone still does.

It's probably fun, on a level, to think there's some kind of special brainwashing process which will make ordinary people into soulless kill-zombies with no regard for their own life. The reality is a bit more involved. I wouldn't be surprised if it comes out in half a decade that many of our current suicide attackers are not exactly the eager volunteers their controllers like to pretend they are.

Besides "tighter gun control" is hardly the kind of cause which will engender the raw expectation and personal desperation required to convince someone to kill themselves.

I can understand how your family feels, because it all just seems too perfect, what with Obama in is second term (with no fear of reelection) and the perfect incident goes down for him to pass draconian laws, and he goes right ahead and starts stirring the pot as soon as the incident happens, like it was all planned.

But there's just not enough evidence to suggest a conspiracy, only a few conflicting stories and some evidence of a few actors hamming it up for the media, but I think the media would be willing to twist a few facts and even plant an actor or two to sensationalize things a little more. There was a lot more sketchy things about the Aurora shooting than this one.

But then again, we still don't know exactly what made Lanza snap... I'll tell you what though, if another major shooting happens in the next few months my suspicions are going to raise several fold.

If you guys want to see what's perpetuating these theories, just look up "Sandy Hook hoax" on YouTube, there are dozens of videos.

I would suggest that if the OP cannot turn around his family's thinking that he at least try his best to keep his family calm, let them know that it's unlikely that any gun measures of any significance are going to get passed, even if it was set up. The last thing we need is more unwarranted fear and worrying.

Hammartroll:
But then again, we still don't know exactly what made Lanza snap... I'll tell you what though, if another major shooting happens in the next few months my suspicions are going to raise several fold.

No reason to. Until Breivik, the highest body count for a shooting spree was the Port Arthur Massacre, and Martin Bryant (from a place called New Town, as it happened), was supposedly inspired by the Dunblane massacre in the UK just over a month before.

Tell them they are disgusting human beings and should be ashamed of themselves. This had nothing to do with politics, and to think so spits on the graves of those children and in the faces of their families. Tell them they don't deserve the freedoms they have because they are terrible dangerous minded people who think such a thing. And that previously the Obama administration has done nothing to hurt peoples ability to posses a gun, and in fact made it easier. Tell them they are filled with paranoia without facts and that once again they should be ashamed of their very existence, and you are ashamed of them because such vile filth can leave nothing but shame.

Vegosiux:
Go out, and buy about 250 rolls on tinfoil, leaving half in each their rooms, and slap some pictures of black helicopters on the walls while you're at it.

...I'm sorry, I don't have a rational response. Try to be cool and slow, and explain, I suppose, but...ugh. Just be persistent. I've no idea.

That's still a damn sight more rational than anything his parents have said....

Hammartroll:
But then again, we still don't know exactly what made Lanza snap...

His mother was a paranoided deluded 'prepper' who thought the end of the world was around the corner, and you need to be always armed to the teeth, because everybody turns into wild savage beasts at the drop of a hat, let alone any sort of calamity.

Anyone wants to take guesses on what teaching such a state of fear and paranoia, such an irrational negative image of other people and such a justification of the use of deadly force against others, does to a child?

TheIronRuler:

evilthecat:
Ask them, very simply, how the government persuades a 20 year old to kill himself?

If a government representative came and offered them billions of dollars to shoot themselves in the head, would any of them do it?

.
Ever heard about suicide bombers? People who put on a bunch of explosives and blow themselves up so they could hurt others who were around them in the blast? There's a process to making them able to accept this action and be willing to commit suicide. It can be done. It had been done.

Then again, I don't think the government of the USA did it.

Suicide attackers tend to require one of two things though,
1- An all pervasive culture of self-sacrifice, which is very hard to instill in a twenty year old living in one of the most individualistic nations on earth or
2- The promise of a post-death reward of some kind, normally along the lines of admittance to paradise. In this case, the shooter presumably wanted the post death reward of fame, but if that was already an attractive prospect to him, then government intervention would not be required in order to push him into committing such and act.

the clockmaker:

TheIronRuler:

evilthecat:
Ask them, very simply, how the government persuades a 20 year old to kill himself?

If a government representative came and offered them billions of dollars to shoot themselves in the head, would any of them do it?

.
Ever heard about suicide bombers? People who put on a bunch of explosives and blow themselves up so they could hurt others who were around them in the blast? There's a process to making them able to accept this action and be willing to commit suicide. It can be done. It had been done.

Then again, I don't think the government of the USA did it.

Suicide attackers tend to require one of two things though,
1- An all pervasive culture of self-sacrifice, which is very hard to instill in a twenty year old living in one of the most individualistic nations on earth or
2- The promise of a post-death reward of some kind, normally along the lines of admittance to paradise. In this case, the shooter presumably wanted the post death reward of fame, but if that was already an attractive prospect to him, then government intervention would not be required in order to push him into committing such and act.

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I think you have a very basic understanding of the local culture. Convincing someone to do this and pushing him over the edge takes months of intense 'brainwashing', for a lack of a better word. It doesn't have to be Islam or an afterlife.

TheIronRuler:

the clockmaker:

TheIronRuler:

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Ever heard about suicide bombers? People who put on a bunch of explosives and blow themselves up so they could hurt others who were around them in the blast? There's a process to making them able to accept this action and be willing to commit suicide. It can be done. It had been done.

Then again, I don't think the government of the USA did it.

Suicide attackers tend to require one of two things though,
1- An all pervasive culture of self-sacrifice, which is very hard to instill in a twenty year old living in one of the most individualistic nations on earth or
2- The promise of a post-death reward of some kind, normally along the lines of admittance to paradise. In this case, the shooter presumably wanted the post death reward of fame, but if that was already an attractive prospect to him, then government intervention would not be required in order to push him into committing such and act.

.
I think you have a very basic understanding of the local culture. Convincing someone to do this and pushing him over the edge takes months of intense 'brainwashing', for a lack of a better word. It doesn't have to be Islam or an afterlife.

Oh, I'm not denying that, only claiming that the two above elements tend to be prerequisites to begin the indoctrination.

the clockmaker:
Suicide attackers tend to require one of two things though,
1- An all pervasive culture of self-sacrifice, which is very hard to instill in a twenty year old living in one of the most individualistic nations on earth or
2- The promise of a post-death reward of some kind, normally along the lines of admittance to paradise. In this case, the shooter presumably wanted the post death reward of fame, but if that was already an attractive prospect to him, then government intervention would not be required in order to push him into committing such and act.

Depends, but many factors play a role. What for instance of those mentally handicapped Palestinian kids purchased from their parents by Hamas for a few dollars, strapped with explosives, and then sent to Israeli checkpoints?

That's basically just a way to get rid of unwanted members of society, and has nothing to do with (self-)sacrifice. And no way that such a kid believes in what he's been forced into doing.

And what about risking your life as opposed to certain death? I don't believe in an afterlife, but when attacked stood the ground, coordinated the defense and won, same for my bodyguards, none of whom were particularly religious to my knowledge. We aren't taught self-sacrifice, we don't believe in rewards for heroic death. But you do get paid to do your job, will face prosecution if you break ranks and flee, realise that the others around you are fucked if you run away, and there's more than a little outrage over being attacked and a desire to inflict harm and death on the guys shooting at you involved.

the clockmaker:

Suicide attackers tend to require one of two things though,
1- An all pervasive culture of self-sacrifice, which is very hard to instill in a twenty year old living in one of the most individualistic nations on earth or
2- The promise of a post-death reward of some kind, normally along the lines of admittance to paradise. In this case, the shooter presumably wanted the post death reward of fame, but if that was already an attractive prospect to him, then government intervention would not be required in order to push him into committing such and act.

Most ironically, though, I keep hearing about "sacrifice" from people who want to keep other people down - "You know, life is about sacrifice, you have to sacrifice some stuff for the greater good or for your own life." The moment the "sacrifice" is a detriment to said people, they start whistling a totally different tune entirely though. Not talking only about suicide bombers even here...

But basically, the sentiment in our culture seems to be "Sacrifice is a good thing, as long as it's only other people who have to do it."

Being willing to die for one's cause is only a virtue if it doesn't interfere with my life and all. Same for willingness to kill for one's cause.

You should tell them that propaganda doesn't normally work by lying in a way that any old idiot could catch them out. It works by how it frames and adds opinion to a core of truth. How the other side of the argument is presented, if at all as it's easier to create a false dichotomy than deal with real arguments that have substance. How it presents an emotional picture that does not allow for cool headed analysis.

There is no cure for idiocy.

The US have of course engaged in questionable speculations when the cold war was at its peak, but it's never actually carried out false flag operations against its own citizens.

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