Holocaust Denial, Holocaust Exaggeration, Holocaust discussion

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Agema:
Pope Pius XI thoroughly condemned Naziism.

Pity the papacy did bugger all to help.

For what it's worth, a google search will reveal just as many quotes by Hitler proclaiming his faith as disowning and abusing it. The whole issue is unsettled, historically. He was certainly an enemy of the Church, but that's not the same.

Silvanus:
Pity the papacy did bugger all to help.

Indeed. Not, I fear, that there was much they could do. Pius XI might have, but he died.

For what it's worth, a google search will reveal just as many quotes by Hitler proclaiming his faith as disowning and abusing it. The whole issue is unsettled, historically. He was certainly an enemy of the Church, but that's not the same.

It is not entirely cut and dried, but the balance of evidence leans very heavily in favour of him not being a Christian. I think it very reasonable to state Hitler was religious, and in a way that drew on some Christian ideology. But he was surely not a Christian in any generally accepted sense of the term.

For instance, we might point out Hitler was originally a Catholic, and when necessary, called upon that. However, he was well known to be non-observant; the Catholic church was attacked more than any other; Hitler wished to create a church of Germany through the Protestant church; he had no time for the Pope. A man who pays no respect to, despises and attempts to wreck the Catholic church cannot meaningfully be called a Catholic. Just as a man who says he is non-violent and then randomly punches people in the street should not be called non-violent.

It is striking that Hitler's / the Nazi's support for Christianity appears in material for public consumption, and the hatred in private. It is by far most plausible that the support was for the most part a facade for political purposes due to ruling a country over 90% Christian, and whose primary enemies were atheistic Communists. You will find the Soviets did similar: they heavily repressed religion, but during the war used Orthodoxy to drum up support for defence of the motherland.

Agema:
Simply wrong anyway, because Christianity of the time was largely against, for instance, mass slaughter and slavery, two things the Nazis enthusiastically engaged in.

Can you prove that that is true? Because there's neither biblical nor historical evidence to back this up. The bible is very much in favour of slaughtering heretics, it's mandatory on pain of damnation even (if you 'hold back your sword from blood' (of non-Christians, you're doomed), and history shows Christianity like any religion is rather happy to cause massacres and genocides too.

Agema:
Pope Pius XI thoroughly condemned Naziism.

Yeah, when it was clear they were going to lose the war and were doing horrible things, after Jews had been getting taken to concentration camps under his nose for years, and after he had approved of a concordat that recognized the nazis as righteous and rightfull rulers....

Agema:
Try reading "Mit brennender Sorge", from a Christian perspective. That's got several.

You mean that pamphlet in which the pope defended the reichskonkordat where he recognized the nazis as being righteous rulers, and where he defended the Old Testament that's stuffed full of atrocities that closely resemble the Holocaust carried out by the technical means of those days?

The only thing he criticised, was that nazism was attempting to create a new distribution of powers between religion and nationalism, by creating a new christian national identity that didn't involve the power of the church as a necessary component. A sensible political move for the pope, because the nazis were stripping him of his power over German Christians.

Agema:
Or we could look at it from the Nazi point of view: all the opinions that can be found from the diaries and writings of Hitler's top circle (e.g. Goebbels, Bormann, Speer) seem to think Hitler didn't like Christianity at all, and thought it encouraged unhealthy attitudes.
"The heaviest blow which ever struck humanity was Christianity; Bolshevism is Christianity's illegitimate child. Both are inventions of the Jew." - Hitler
"The law of selection justifies this incessant struggle, by allowing the survival of the fittest. Christianity is a rebellion against natural law, a protest against nature. Taken to its logical extreme, Christianity would mean the systematic cultivation of the human failure". - Hitler
"The Ten Commandments have lost their validity. Conscience is a Jewish invention, it is a blemish like circumcision." - Hitler
"National Socialism [Nazism] and Christianity are irreconcilable" Martin Bormann
And there are plenty of other ones. He dismissed a field marshal saying (paraphrased) "like all Christians, he wants to pray not fight".

I wondered why you didn't bother to source that, and googling revealed why. It's from a bunch of conservative Christian sites, who in turn are citing the book "Hitler speaks" by Hermann Rauschning, an American anti-nazi who has been criticised for making up all of what he attributes to Hitler. It's unlikely Rauschning and Hitler ever even met once, let alone the hundreds of times that Rauschin lied that he did.

You see now why I warned that there's a campaign of lies and misinformation going on by Christians to pretend that Hitler and the nazis as a whole weren't faithfull Christians? I said that because it's happening.

While the Nazi party in its early days had several essential 'program points' that were their central tenets. One of those crucial points of nazism read:
"We demand liberty for all religious denominations in the State, so far as they are not a danger to it and do not militate against the morality and moral sense of the German race. The Party, as such, stands for positive Christianity, but does not bind itself in the matter of creed to any particular confession..."[1]

If you take what Hitler himself wrote however, you'd see he was strongly religiously motivated. He writes things like "he's doing the work of the Lord", that Jesus is his great inspiration and so on. Not just that, but also indirectly. He speaks for instance of Austria, and how in his opinion they failed to combat Jews. Hitler thinks this is because they (as in the Christian Movement in Austria) failed because they regarded anti-semitism as merely a religious matter instead of both a religious and racial matter (he writers this in chapter 3). Only a Christian would write like that. Someone who doesn't care about Christianity would see no point in a religious fight against Jews to begin with.

Blablahb:
Can you prove that that is true? Because there's neither biblical nor historical evidence to back this up. The bible is very much in favour of slaughtering heretics, it's mandatory on pain of damnation even (if you 'hold back your sword from blood' (of non-Christians, you're doomed), and history shows Christianity like any religion is rather happy to cause massacres and genocides too.

The Bible contains what you might call "mixed messages".

Reading through the history of the Hebrews in the Old Testament, it is easy to find bloodthirsty passages. However, a Christian should much more reasonably follow the teachings of Christ and his subsequent acolytes, which are to be found in the New Testament. I have no intention of very tediously listing reams of quotes urging non-violent conduct, the pointlessness of conversion by force, peaceful coexistence with fellow humans whether Christian or non-Christian, and so on.

The fact you casually elide all mention of such things for your point, despite your supposed time with Christians, indicates nothing more than cherry-picking, and deliberate dishonesty on your part. I'd guess you're probably not ashamed, as you act like it's more important to appear to be correct than actually be correct.

The OT is certainly part of the Bible, and thus supplies credible (if, by being pre-Christian, I would argue weaker) arguments to defend killing heretics, which have been occasionally enthusiastically used throughout history. However, the vast series of strictures against slaughtering people elsewhere form more than sufficient counter. This sort of thing is because religion, like much in the world, is very complex, and thus ill-suited to the sort of simplistic, cartoon characterisation you wish to apply to it.

If we remove arguments about where the balance lies, simply to point out that it is Biblical to be pacifistic and Biblical to not be, then there are no useful grounds to argue that it is Christian ideology to slaughter people, because it's also Christian ideology to not slaughter people. There is a further problem to arguing that it is Christian ideology to slaughter fellow human beings, because for all that some Christians have, the majority have not and do not now. How the majority of Christians think and act about their religion is, to a great extent, the empirical reality of what Christian ideology believes. Which rather puts you in the position of trying to deny empirical reality. But then, with your prejudice, you may well do so.

Yeah, when it was clear they were going to lose the war and were doing horrible things, after Jews had been getting taken to concentration camps under his nose for years, and after he had approved of a concordat that recognized the nazis as righteous and rightfull rulers....

Pope Pius XI died before WW2 started. Duh.

It is hard to have a useful conversation with someone incognisant and disinterested in the facts important to his argument.

Agema:
The only thing he criticised, was that nazism was attempting to create a new distribution of powers between religion and nationalism, by creating a new christian national identity that didn't involve the power of the church as a necessary component. A sensible political move for the pope, because the nazis were stripping him of his power over German Christians.

No, it criticised much more. That you argue it does not is just more cherry picking from you. From Wikipedia, because it's easy:
"The encyclical condemned particularly the paganism of the national-socialism ideology, the myth of race and blood, and the fallacy of their conception of God. It warned Catholics that the growing Nazi ideology, which exalted one race over all others, was incompatible with Catholic Christianity"

and you can check the citations for yourself.

Are you never embarrassed at not checking facts, and being so wrong so often? Astonishing.

You see now why I warned that there's a campaign of lies and misinformation going on by Christians to pretend that Hitler and the nazis as a whole weren't faithfull Christians? I said that because it's happening...
[snip]

This little passage, of course, is just ad hominem conspiracy theory bullshit. It's argument is merely "I don't want to deal with your evidence, so I'm just going to call it a conspiracy of lies."

What I'm arguing is all respected academic biographical/historical analysis that you could read for yourself, had you the intellectual courage and honesty to do so.

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