Silvanus:
The descendants of a wrongdoer do not have any responsibility for the wrongdoing of their ancestor, but that does not mean they remain entitled to advantages (financial or otherwise) stolen by their ancestors.

But it doesn't work as simply as this, because we're talking about entire ethnic groups, tribes etc, rather than just somebody who still owns the loot his racist grandfather stole. The British people can't just "return" what they stole from their former colonial holdings, because the material wealth has long been absorbed into our economy, the people we took as slaves have all long been worked to death or eventually freed... and even so, the legacy of colonialism is far more damaging than just what we took.

So we do have a responsibility to redress the lasting damage to poorer nations. 'Responsibility to help' is distinct from 'responsibility for what was done wrong in the first place'.

And other wealthy nations share in the responsibility to help, whether those nations had a part in the crime or not, because it's just morally right regardless.

I agree that the " responsibility for the wrong doing" and the " responsibility to help" are two very different things and both should be addressed. Where we can actually apply " responsibility for the wrong doing", such as the case with DeBeers, we should. And as Human beings we should have the "responsibility" to help one another because we are human and can change these things if we try hard enough, we just have to want to and apply ourselves to do so. Even though I do not come from wealth or have benefitted in any way from the wrongs done to my people and others, I too feel a responsibility as a human being to help those who need to be helped, and feel I would be at fault for their suffering, and more responsible for wrongdoing as well if I failed to do so. It would make me an "accomplice" if I ignored it and allowed it to continue. I am not sure if that is " right" or " wrong" but I do know that is how I view myself in that situation.

I know White people are kinda assholes, when you look at history, but times have changed, and "reverse racism" is only contributing to the problem. There will never be no racism in the world, but humanity just needs to learn to meet each other half-way.

DevilWithaHalo:
Racism is racism; it doesn't matter what race the aggressor is or what race the victim is.

Reverse racism is... an odd phrase, one which need not exist for all it does is alter the perceptions of specific kinds of racism when there isn't a justification for it.

And i got ninja'd

I dont think racism agaisnt white people is a big problem now. There is some discriminatory actions, sure. However there are still far more racism from the white people which is a bigger issue at the moment.

AstroSmash:

Helmholtz Watson:

AstroSmash:

So you want people, who have nothing to do with slavery, to pay people, who never were slaves, based on...what? The color of their skin(since not everyone can prove their ancestors were slaves)? You essentially want children to pay for the sins of their fathers.

Reparations only work when the people responsible pay the victims.

No more like people who's families were slave owners have to pay up. The people who's families came here dirt poor from places like Ireland, Italy, Germany, ect. don't have to pay a dime. Or to compare it to your comment about kids, its like your grandfather stole a sports car and passed it on to you when he died and now the original owner is asking for you to give it back.

Except pretty much 99% of society has been somehow swindled, tricked with clever ruses so that someone can get rich.
Besides, what if a black person works for a company that has somehow benefited from slavery? Does he get reduced reparations?
Slavery was outlawed...what, 150 years ago? That's 150 years of a business being run WITHOUT slavery. You want to penalize someone for NOT having slaves? How far back can we go with these reparations? Can I demand Austria to pay me reparations, because my country was under their rule up until the 1st World War (and they were significantly enriched by it)? What about Germans, who were, by default, first class citizens up until the time slavery was outlawed in the US?

Hell, maybe we can get egyptians to pay jews some money.

Reparations only work when perpetrators pay the victims. You can't go back in time to an arbitrary date and demand reparations.

Edit: What if the businesses would pay black people tickets to Africa? Would that be fair? It would sure as hell level the playing field now, wouldn't it?

Edit n2: What if a German immigrant married a slave owner, had a kid, and that kid married a black girl and had kids, and now that kid is head of accounting of some tobacco/cotton corporation? What does he pay/receive?

Well don't you see that as a huge problem if 99% of people are effected by this? If the people perpetrating these things were forced to give back the money, there would be no purpose in " swindling" and more people would stop doing it all together, since it is no longer profitable for themselves or their families. Justice being denied and the crooks being rewarded here is the problem that should be resolved so that we can reduce the number of people harmed by these things.

However, as already discussed, it is difficult to prove such actions the longer the crime goes unpunished, so rather we should accept " General responsibility" to help those affected by such things, and also hold accountable those who we can for such actions at the same time.

And no, " giving someone a plane ticket to Africa" surely would not cover their suffering caused by the actions taken against them in the first place, since of course the damage has been done, families torn apart, there is no place for them to " return to" now that their families have been separated, villages destroyed. They are now foreigners in their own homelands. You do not " help them" by creating more problems for them, instead the respect that was not given in the first place, giving them a choice of what they think should happen here is the solution now to solve this. Having equal respect for another race, also means respecting them as equals enough to have confidence in their decisions to allow them to make their own decisions about what is best for them, and what would be most beneficial to them to help them out of their current situations. making decisions for them is what started the problems here, instead yes help should be given, and they should be able to determine what they help should be. if it is truly " help" they should be able to tell you what would " help" rather than " harm".

How about Native Americans, for example? Where are you going to " give them a plane ticket" to? The problem often being with how the funds are distributed is the government gives one person or small group all the money to "buy their silence", and the rest of the people suffering get left out of the equation, that really is not the way to solve these things, and often in the case of Native Americans, for example, money doesn't exactly solve all the problems, because they still have no real "homeland" to go home to, it has been concreted over and other people living there now. Not all problems can be simply solved by " throwing money at it". Many tribes need control over their own affairs, which still hasn't happened in this day and age before any money can even help solve the problems created for them by years of capitivty.

The US created " tribal councils" and US created "Bureau of Indian Affairs" the US created " tribal courts", the US created " tribal police" are still controlled by the US and even then not given any real authority other than have the ability to sell out the tribes, that is not respecting people as equals enough to give them control over their own affairs, that is putting on an act to appease the onlookers to make it appear as if they have control, but not really allowing them to have any say in what happens to them. That isn't what I would call " helping them", it is just creating a different form of prison that looks good from the outside.

AstroSmash:

Lil devils x:
Not all problems can be simply solved by " throwing money at it".

:)

My work here is done.

But keep in mind that much of the work that needs to be done takes programs and services that cost much more than just giving people "money" directly. They need those in addition to money in most cases. Just looking at Tribal healthcare, education and security issues alone, that is going to take enormous amounts of resources to resolve.

http://www.spotlightonpoverty.org/ExclusiveCommentary.aspx?id=0fe5c04e-fdbf-4718-980c-0373ba823da7
http://www.onjinjinkta.com/native/reservationindex.html

At first racism against white people (seeins as how I am one) does bother me. Especially when the bastards go off on the ''heterosexual white male'' stint.[SARCASM] But then I remember...

And then I go off to my palacial estate to play golf with the other godlike white men in the Whitey Club for White Men Club. [/SARCASM]

Do we mean actual racism or the soft "reverse racism" that usually involves things like "preventing them damn negros from getting jobs?"

Because the latter is the more common use of "reverse racism." People with an inherent benefit complaining that they no longer get special privileges for being (generally white).

While I will agree with the incredibly soft point that "all racism is bad," what is generally meant by "reverse racism" is not racism so much as over-privileged people whining that they're losing their privilege.

As a white person, it doesn't bother me at all. I enjoy considering myself mature enough to realise that their "reverse racism" doesn't even come close to what they experience as actual racism, so I bask in having the dignity and poise of not complaining of a splinter in my finger while someone sitting next to me has six or seven metal pipes through their torso.

I think racism is alive and well across the board, and that includes racism from the to put it delicately "less advantaged" to the most. I don't think the term reverse is correct, as it is just plain old racism whether it's a white or a black (or whoever) doing it. It's a mentality. It's come to be that people don't think it's possible for anyone but white people to be racist, and that's ridiculous.

white people pay taxes, yall so crazy

Not even a little. Yes, racism is racism, but would I trade places with any racial minority in existence? Of course not. If a little resentment and judgement from peoples who have long been oppressed by my people is the price I pay for my white privilege, so be it.

In an ideal world, there would be no racism. For now, let us whiteys stop whining about the fact that some people don't like us and focus on real race issues. Like the "War on Drugs." Thousands of minority persons die every year thanks to that racist crap, and we're complaining about jobs and scholarship money?

DevilWithaHalo:

Lil devils x:
Hopi girl:

What shade of tan is that? Is it even on the color wheel? LOL

It's really tough to tell with the lighting. But my first guess would be Fulvous, which is a shade of brown (of which Tan is a shade of as well).

Is someone was actually Tan (the color), I'd suspect they were sickly or suffering from a vitamin deficiency.

Just out of curiosity, but are you in a line of work which involves colours?
Or am I simply bad at colours?
Because I couldn't have named that skin colour for the life of me.
Then again, if asked about the colour of my skin,(I am a caucasian) I would have to go with "maybe orange-pinkish-something with a bit of brown", which, incidentally, is the same description I would have used for the Hopi girl shown above.

OT:
Racism is always bad.

The use of the phrase "reverse racism" bothers me, because it's clearly an unnecessary distinction. Racism does not bother me one bit though, only those ignorant of modern genetics would try and claim that humanity does not contain races.

Calibanbutcher:

DevilWithaHalo:

Lil devils x:
Hopi girl:

What shade of tan is that? Is it even on the color wheel? LOL

It's really tough to tell with the lighting. But my first guess would be Fulvous, which is a shade of brown (of which Tan is a shade of as well).

Is someone was actually Tan (the color), I'd suspect they were sickly or suffering from a vitamin deficiency.

Just out of curiosity, but are you in a line of work which involves colours?
Or am I simply bad at colours?
Because I couldn't have named that skin colour for the life of me.
Then again, if asked about the colour of my skin,(I am a caucasian) I would have to go with "maybe orange-pinkish-something with a bit of brown", which, incidentally, is the same description I would have used for the Hopi girl shown above.

In so much that any artist involves colors in their work. Don't feel bad about not knowing all the colors, the human eye can only detect about 10 million color variants and even artists need color references and charts to work with. I "may" know more about colors then some because the science behind them fascinated me so much; why certain people were blind to specific colors, how animals view different levels of the spectrum, how perception changes the value of color, why people react differently on a psychological level to different colors, etc.

Caucasians are far from white, now Albinos on the other hand...

lowhat:
The use of the phrase "reverse racism" bothers me, because it's clearly an unnecessary distinction. Racism does not bother me one bit though, only those ignorant of modern genetics would try and claim that humanity does not contain races.

It's funny you say that, since race is a social construct and actually has very little to do with genetics.

Biologically, species are all that matter. Everything below species (subspecies, breed, strain, serotype) are arbitrary classifications that humans find convenient. Everything above seems more objective, until you consider that everything with a spine is still a fish in the same way that humans are still apes, and apes are still monkeys, and monkeys are still mammals, and mammals are still vertebrates, all of which descended from early fish.

The only solid criteria of a subspecies is "a sweep of definitive alleles that are present in All members of a group, but in No members of a sister group". Our species fails in that respect even phenotypically; there are so called "Mongoloids" with blond hair, so called "Negroid" with Epicanthic Folds, so called "Caucasoid" with very dark skin, etc. The theoretical number of races put forth by antiquated anthropologists have ranged from 3 to 50+. If pressed, you can use all manner of measurement to make 7 billion races.

Or to put it another way, if 500 people traveled West from East Asia into the Levant, I doubt that all of them would agree upon a specific longitude where "Mongoloids" end and "Caucasoid" begin.

cobra_ky:

lowhat:
The use of the phrase "reverse racism" bothers me, because it's clearly an unnecessary distinction. Racism does not bother me one bit though, only those ignorant of modern genetics would try and claim that humanity does not contain races.

It's funny you say that, since race is a social construct and actually has very little to do with genetics.

That isn't true at all, race has a lot to do with Phenotypes in relation to genetics.

There is no such thing as "reverse racism." And there is absolutely nothing wrong with having a certain skin color, or being from a certain nation. Any who say it is, clearly don't know how the real world works. Or they're racist themselves, and can't stand the thought of certain groups of "those people" having a negative view of their race.

Doesn't matter if you're black, white, Hispanic, German, Asian, or etc. Racism is racism. If someone thinks all white people are racist, no matter what skin color they themselves may have, they themselves are racist.

Zachary Amaranth:
Do we mean actual racism or the soft "reverse racism" that usually involves things like "preventing them damn negros from getting jobs?"

Because the latter is the more common use of "reverse racism." People with an inherent benefit complaining that they no longer get special privileges for being (generally white).

While I will agree with the incredibly soft point that "all racism is bad," what is generally meant by "reverse racism" is not racism so much as over-privileged people whining that they're losing their privilege.

I feel this is the most accurate way of using that phrase, it's the first thing that came to mind when people were like "NO CAUSE REVERSE-RACISM IS JUST RACISM" but I couldn't put it into words. It may not be the right word for it, but it's more often than not how I see people using it.

I completely agree, to me it is exactly that people are getting upset when their race advantage is taken away.

Helmholtz Watson:

cobra_ky:

lowhat:
The use of the phrase "reverse racism" bothers me, because it's clearly an unnecessary distinction. Racism does not bother me one bit though, only those ignorant of modern genetics would try and claim that humanity does not contain races.

It's funny you say that, since race is a social construct and actually has very little to do with genetics.

That isn't true at all, race has a lot to do with Phenotypes in relation to genetics.

It has to do with arbitrary classifications based upon shallow observations.

The only solid criteria of a subspecies is "a sweep of definitive alleles that are present in All members of a group, but in No members of a sister group". Our species fails in that respect even phenotypically; there are so called "Mongoloids" with blond hair, so called "Negroid" with Epicanthic Folds, so called "Caucasoid" with very dark skin, etc.

Helmholtz Watson:

cobra_ky:

lowhat:
The use of the phrase "reverse racism" bothers me, because it's clearly an unnecessary distinction. Racism does not bother me one bit though, only those ignorant of modern genetics would try and claim that humanity does not contain races.

It's funny you say that, since race is a social construct and actually has very little to do with genetics.

That isn't true at all, race has a lot to do with Phenotypes in relation to genetics.

and how we perceive these phenotypes and react to others on the basis of them is socially constructed and largely arbitrary.

Allow me to demonstrate why I despise most people who are fighting 'racism'.

Consider the following statement:

"I am Black, and I am proud of being Black. I am proud of what Black people have accomplished in the last hundred years, and I want to see Black culture grow in power and importance in the world.

I feel that Blacks have suffered in the past, and I think that some Black people are still struggling in the modern world. I believe that some Black people are missing out on jobs because their abilities are ignored and they are judged by skin colour or sexual orientation or religion instead.

I think more needs to be done to promote Black culture, and to emphasise that Black people have a right to be proud of being Black!"

Is that racist? Replace every instance of "Black" with "White", and you can guarantee you'd have people screaming racism from the rooftops.

That is racism.

Wargamer:
Allow me to demonstrate why I despise most people who are fighting 'racism'.

Consider the following statement:

"I am Black, and I am proud of being Black. I am proud of what Black people have accomplished in the last hundred years, and I want to see Black culture grow in power and importance in the world.

I feel that Blacks have suffered in the past, and I think that some Black people are still struggling in the modern world. I believe that some Black people are missing out on jobs because their abilities are ignored and they are judged by skin colour or sexual orientation or religion instead.

I think more needs to be done to promote Black culture, and to emphasise that Black people have a right to be proud of being Black!"

Is that racist? Replace every instance of "Black" with "White", and you can guarantee you'd have people screaming racism from the rooftops.

That is racism.

Im sorry, but I think you really missed the point here. You do realize that many people are STILL suffering due to the actions of slavery, segregation, Indian reservations and many more actions that have taken place since? To say " this is past" is ignoring the fact that people are still being harmed by those actions. My neighbor who was literally living in a dirt hole was there because of the violence carried out against HER as a child due to how the white supremacists attacked them during desegregation. She was pulled out of school in the 4th grade because they feared for their lives.

The problem being now is that some people think this is past, and close their eyes to what this has caused in the present.

Lil devils x:

Im sorry, but I think you really missed the point here. You do realize that many people are STILL suffering due to the actions of slavery, segregation, Indian reservations and many more actions that have taken place since? To say " this is past" is ignoring the fact that people are still being harmed by those actions. My neighbor who was literally living in a dirt hole was there because of the violence carried out against HER as a child due to how the white supremacists attacked them during desegregation. She was pulled out of school in the 4th grade because they feared for their lives.

The problem being now is that some people think this is past, and close their eyes to what this has caused in the present.

It is you who has missed my point. I am not saying racism does not exist; I am saying that people wilfully overlook racist attitudes in non-white communities because "it's not racism if it's against whites."

That does not mean racially motivated crimes do not take place. That does not mean there is equality, nor does it mean everyone has magically forgotten about the past. However, doesn't it say a lot that every 'white vs white' atrocity in the history of mankind, some of which make the entire Black Slavery issue look downright friendly by comparison, gets very quickly written off as history and we move on?

No living black man in America was a plantation slave. Slavery was abolished in 1865, yet there are still people who bitch and moan to such an extent that sometimes I want to as them to lift up their shirt so we can all see the brand mark their master gave them. That attitude, put simply, helps no-one. It is one thing to make people aware of inequality, it is quite another to adopt a persecution complex and demand the world do everything you want.

Wargamer:

Lil devils x:

Im sorry, but I think you really missed the point here. You do realize that many people are STILL suffering due to the actions of slavery, segregation, Indian reservations and many more actions that have taken place since? To say " this is past" is ignoring the fact that people are still being harmed by those actions. My neighbor who was literally living in a dirt hole was there because of the violence carried out against HER as a child due to how the white supremacists attacked them during desegregation. She was pulled out of school in the 4th grade because they feared for their lives.

The problem being now is that some people think this is past, and close their eyes to what this has caused in the present.

It is you who has missed my point. I am not saying racism does not exist; I am saying that people wilfully overlook racist attitudes in non-white communities because "it's not racism if it's against whites."

That does not mean racially motivated crimes do not take place. That does not mean there is equality, nor does it mean everyone has magically forgotten about the past. However, doesn't it say a lot that every 'white vs white' atrocity in the history of mankind, some of which make the entire Black Slavery issue look downright friendly by comparison, gets very quickly written off as history and we move on?

No living black man in America was a plantation slave. Slavery was abolished in 1865, yet there are still people who bitch and moan to such an extent that sometimes I want to as them to lift up their shirt so we can all see the brand mark their master gave them. That attitude, put simply, helps no-one. It is one thing to make people aware of inequality, it is quite another to adopt a persecution complex and demand the world do everything you want.

I keep hearing about the past and how slavery was abolished.. what about the present issues caused by this? How about the School I attended as a child where they punished us to " git the injun out' tied me to a chair and made to read the bible aloud? How about those schools that are STILL OPEN that the US government has deemed "necessary for assimilation"? How 'bout the US appointed BIA and the tribal councils the US placed to sell out the reservations to Uranium and coal mining poisoning the people living there NOW? What are you doing now to stop it and help them now? What is being done now to help the families who were torn apart from slavery and abuse and still " have no place to go?" The ghettos are still here as a result of the past actions, and the people are still enduring. Pretending like it is " past" doesn't make it so. The chain of events that were put in place due to the actions of slavery do not " just heal" in a few generations, you should understand that. Where is the wealth from all the labor unpaid?

Tell ya what, you give all the families that are suffering from that unpaid labor the wealth that was accumulated from doing so, and they might be able to say you at least tried to help.

Wargamer:

Is that racist? Replace every instance of "Black" with "White", and you can guarantee you'd have people screaming racism from the rooftops.

You also have a statement that no longer has the same body of truth behind it. To ascribe the protest simply to racism is to structure a false equity around the circumstances when none such exists.

And that's also the problem with cries of "reverse racism," or racism period. A bunch of (generally) white boys with a persecution complex complaining that they're being discriminated against based on the premise of an equivalence that doesn't exist.

Lil devils x:

I keep hearing about the past and how slavery was abolished.. what about the present issues caused by this?

Thankfully, the minute slavery was abolished, everything became equal. Because ponies. Black people were offered equal education, they were given good jobs, and they were welcomed with open arms in the free community. Those people who threatened to make the South a "nigger's graveyard" were just....Just kidding or something. And that's a good thing. When my father marched for the equal treatment of blak people a hundred-ish years after the abolition of slavery, when he was abused and even jailed and called a "nigger lover," he was just misguided into believing that was poor treatment of black people.

I mean, he's living proof that white people get the same kind of poor treatment if they side with black people, anyway.

cobra_ky:

Helmholtz Watson:

cobra_ky:

It's funny you say that, since race is a social construct and actually has very little to do with genetics.

That isn't true at all, race has a lot to do with Phenotypes in relation to genetics.

and how we perceive these phenotypes and react to others on the basis of them is socially constructed and largely arbitrary.

That's fine, but it doesn't change the fact that genetics does play a role in race.

Wargamer:
Allow me to demonstrate why I despise most people who are fighting 'racism'.

Consider the following statement:

"I am Black, and I am proud of being Black. I am proud of what Black people have accomplished in the last hundred years, and I want to see Black culture grow in power and importance in the world.

I feel that Blacks have suffered in the past, and I think that some Black people are still struggling in the modern world. I believe that some Black people are missing out on jobs because their abilities are ignored and they are judged by skin colour or sexual orientation or religion instead.

I think more needs to be done to promote Black culture, and to emphasise that Black people have a right to be proud of being Black!"

Is that racist? Replace every instance of "Black" with "White", and you can guarantee you'd have people screaming racism from the rooftops.

That is racism.

Over the past hundred years Black people unified and organized to resist centuries of oppression codified in law.

White people, in response, organized to defend and maintain those institutions.

Only one of those things is actually worth taking pride in. Only one of those things is actually racist.

Helmholtz Watson:

cobra_ky:

Helmholtz Watson:
That isn't true at all, race has a lot to do with Phenotypes in relation to genetics.

and how we perceive these phenotypes and react to others on the basis of them is socially constructed and largely arbitrary.

That's fine, but it doesn't change the fact that genetics does play a role in race.

and that doesn't change my argument that the role of genetics is minimal and its importance is overemphasized.