Russia Moves Forward With Anti-Gay Law

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Every time I look at my country (US), I think the struggles of gays and lesbians are bad. Nice for Russia to provide a little perspective, with a law that will essentially make it illegal to be gay.

The new law, passed by a combo of the Russian Orthodox Church and the Kremlin would make it illegal nationwide to provide minors with information that is defined as "propaganda of sodomy, lesbianism, bisexuality and transgenderism." It includes a ban on holding public events that promote gay rights. Punishment would be a minimum $16,000 fine and imprisonment.

Russian Lawmakers have accused gays of decreasing Russia's already low birth rates and said they should be barred from government jobs, undergo forced medical treatment or be exiled.

"Until this scum gets off of Russian land, I fully share the views of those who are trying to purge our motherland of it," Rev. Sergiy Rybko was quoted as saying by the Orthodoxy and World online magazine. "We either become a tolerant Western state where everything is allowed - and lose our Christianity and moral foundations - or we will be a Christian people who live in our God-protected land in purity and godliness."

Pro-Gay advocates are calling the law a smokescreen for the increasing opposition to the government and its current president Vladamir Putin.

Thoughts? Concerns? Ideas?

SOURCE: http://news.yahoo.com/russia-moves-enact-anti-gay-law-nationwide-125825051.html

Meh, mostly I wonder how many Russians will have to die to get rid of this new wave of authoritarianism. You'd think that after more than a century of oppression, Russians collectively would've learned not to.

Not to say every Russian is okay with the new oppression, but collectively, they are.

These anti-gay measures we're seeing from governments around the world are the death spasms of bigotry. Growing pains - it'll pass.

Blablahb:
Meh, mostly I wonder how many Russians will have to die to get rid of this new wave of authoritarianism. You'd think that after more than a century of oppression, Russians collectively would've learned not to.

Not to say every Russian is okay with the new oppression, but collectively, they are.

Well you gotta look at the shit they dealt with for about a decade after the Soviet Union fell. Massive crime, drug epidemic, economy was rocky, ect. As far as most Russians are concerned things just got better when Putin and those like hims started coming around. This is the first time Russia has had a Non-authoritarian government in.......forever.

OT: While its a pretty low move and against my beliefs, I can see where they are coming from. The Russians have a pathetic population growth rate at the moment and I can see why they'd lash out at anything that can be seen as a contributing factor in it. The Russians are nothing else if not proud of being Russian, and low growth rate is bad for Russia.

As Rybko said, it's either relativism or some form of order. They've opted for a christian framework and such, denounce relativistic and extreme-tolerant attitudes.

Although I do think that the legislation is more about re-inforcing power rather than advocating some sort of moralist policy.

Quite disgusting. But that's what happens when you mix extremist institutionalized religion with politics. Let's hope the backlash is powerful enough to stop this.

EDIT:

al4674:
As Rybko said, it's either relativism or some form of order. They've opted for a christian framework and such, denounce relativistic and extreme-tolerant attitudes.

There is no particular "christian framework" to opt for. There are many, many different ways of interpreting Christianity, including much less bigoted ones. You're insulting a lot of reasonable Christians right here. Not to mention that Western countries with greater acceptance of homosexuals are far from relativistic and without order.

Blablahb:
Meh, mostly I wonder how many Russians will have to die to get rid of this new wave of authoritarianism. You'd think that after more than a century of oppression, Russians collectively would've learned not to.

Not to say every Russian is okay with the new oppression, but collectively, they are.

Well, I'd say that's the root of it really. They went from a Tsarist dictatorship to a Communist dictatorship to a corrupt oligarchy. It's hard to get liberty to take root when the people have no experiences of it.

In the UK democracy, was a slow uphill battle over several centuries with each new freedom a battle against the status quo. France tried a short cut and quickly fell back into tyranny, before slowly becoming a democracy again. Germany did the same, but was helped by the allies to remain stable after Hitler fell.

Only in the 'New world' did democratic principles thrive, because they where there from the outset, and there was no existing power which lost out by its appearance to fight against it. History teaches us that replacing tyranny with democracy isn't quick or easy.

Blablahb:
Meh, mostly I wonder how many Russians will have to die to get rid of this new wave of authoritarianism. You'd think that after more than a century of oppression, Russians collectively would've learned not to.

Not to say every Russian is okay with the new oppression, but collectively, they are.

A good start would be for them to have some kind of "freedom" that didn't involve risk capitalists tearing the entire country down in the wake of the fall of the authoritarian rulers. Russia's single biggest problem is that the people, as a whole, simply doesn't think democracy and capitalism are viable systems since both are deeply associated with the plundering of former USSR assets in the early 90's and the subsequent economical and social problems in the late 90's. If your only brush with western democracy is comparable to being raped, robbed and left in a garbage dumpster on a national scale, then even the sustained abuse of a repressive authoritarian government might seem relatively decent.

It's like looking at a train wreck.

The Kremlin is using the orthodox church as a mere tool of course, but it doesn't stop this from being any less despicable.

Gethsemani:

Blablahb:
Meh, mostly I wonder how many Russians will have to die to get rid of this new wave of authoritarianism. You'd think that after more than a century of oppression, Russians collectively would've learned not to.

Not to say every Russian is okay with the new oppression, but collectively, they are.

A good start would be for them to have some kind of "freedom" that didn't involve risk capitalists tearing the entire country down in the wake of the fall of the authoritarian rulers. Russia's single biggest problem is that the people, as a whole, simply doesn't think democracy and capitalism are viable systems since both are deeply associated with the plundering of former USSR assets in the early 90's and the subsequent economical and social problems in the late 90's. If your only brush with western democracy is comparable to being raped, robbed and left in a garbage dumpster on a national scale, then even the sustained abuse of a repressive authoritarian government might seem relatively decent.

Boris Yeltsin and Alexander Rutskoy right? I think the problem with Russia was that it tried to convert to capitalism too quickly leaving a hole for inflation and massive corruption.

You also have to remember that a short while ago there were several protests where younger people were ushered in positions on the lower rung of the government. There has been a modicum of resistance.
Not enough evidently.

I think the following jokes are also good indicator of a mentality.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_political_jokes

And meanwhile in America, all of a sudden, years of Communism are suddenly forgiven by Christian conservatives and many boners were sported....

GunsmithKitten:
And meanwhile in America, all of a sudden, years of Communism are suddenly forgiven by Christian conservatives and many boners were sported....

It is really funny. We established this country as a Christian nation in 1954 to separate us from the "Godless Communists" and now Russia has a bigger Theocracy than we do. The ultimate irony in this is that groups like Focus on the Family will fail to see the irony in this.

This is insane. Isn't there some sort of nation-wide uproar and media coverage of this law? Let me tell you, shit would hit the fan at relativistic velocities if a law like this was introduced over here.

itsthesheppy:
These anti-gay measures we're seeing from governments around the world are the death spasms of bigotry. Growing pains - it'll pass.

.
Check and see how many countries in the world treat Homosexuality as a crime. Some with imprisonment, others with the death sentence. Not to even mention gay 'rights'.
.

NameIsRobertPaulson:

GunsmithKitten:
And meanwhile in America, all of a sudden, years of Communism are suddenly forgiven by Christian conservatives and many boners were sported....

It is really funny. We established this country as a Christian nation in 1954 to separate us from the "Godless Communists" and now Russia has a bigger Theocracy than we do. The ultimate irony in this is that groups like Focus on the Family will fail to see the irony in this.

.
Both of you - how the hell did you reach that conclusion? Russia have been suffering a population crisis for the past two decades, this is a measure that they believe would somehow stop this phenomenon. Obviously it's wrong, but it's just one in many measures made by the Government to keep the growth of ethnic Russians within Russia at a healthy rate.
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Pinkamena:
This is insane. Isn't there some sort of nation-wide uproar and media coverage of this law? Let me tell you, shit would hit the fan at relativistic velocities if a law like this was introduced over here.

.
I haven't heard of it much. I watch Russian news pretty much daily and I haven't seen much cover of this. Then again I haven't watched it for the last two days...
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ClockworkPenguin:

Blablahb:
Meh, mostly I wonder how many Russians will have to die to get rid of this new wave of authoritarianism. You'd think that after more than a century of oppression, Russians collectively would've learned not to.

Not to say every Russian is okay with the new oppression, but collectively, they are.

Well, I'd say that's the root of it really. They went from a Tsarist dictatorship to a Communist dictatorship to a corrupt oligarchy. It's hard to get liberty to take root when the people have no experiences of it.

In the UK democracy, was a slow uphill battle over several centuries with each new freedom a battle against the status quo. France tried a short cut and quickly fell back into tyranny, before slowly becoming a democracy again. Germany did the same, but was helped by the allies to remain stable after Hitler fell.

Only in the 'New world' did democratic principles thrive, because they where there from the outset, and there was no existing power which lost out by its appearance to fight against it. History teaches us that replacing tyranny with democracy isn't quick or easy.

.
You're painting "the new world" with one brush... that wasn't the case at all.

TheIronRuler:

itsthesheppy:
These anti-gay measures we're seeing from governments around the world are the death spasms of bigotry. Growing pains - it'll pass.

.
Check and see how many countries in the world treat Homosexuality as a crime. Some with imprisonment, others with the death sentence. Not to even mention gay 'rights'.

Beat me to it. The idea that bigotry is dying is wishful thinking at best.

GunsmithKitten:
And meanwhile in America, all of a sudden, years of Communism are suddenly forgiven by Christian conservatives and many boners were sported....

Heh.

GunsmithKitten:
And meanwhile in America, all of a sudden, years of Communism are suddenly forgiven by Christian conservatives and many boners were sported....

This got a genuine laugh-out-loud out of me. :)

To be fair, the Communism is not forgiven, and this pro-LGBT conservative is not sporting boners.

NameIsRobertPaulson:
"We either become a tolerant Western state where everything is allowed - and lose our Christianity and moral foundations - or we will be a Christian people who live in our God-protected land in purity and godliness."

It's interesting how they pretty much just come out and say it, instead of trying to spin it. "We can either be Tolerant or Christian." It's disgusting but I can appreciate how forward they are in their Ignorance. Has Russia ever been a nice place to live for anyone?

Notsomuch:

NameIsRobertPaulson:
"We either become a tolerant Western state where everything is allowed - and lose our Christianity and moral foundations - or we will be a Christian people who live in our God-protected land in purity and godliness."

It's interesting how they pretty much just come out and say it, instead of trying to spin it. "We can either be Tolerant or Christian." It's disgusting but I can appreciate how forward they are in their Ignorance. Has Russia ever been a nice place to live for anyone?

It's a pretty nice place to live in for the billionaires and their trophy wives that rule the country atm.

itsthesheppy:
These anti-gay measures we're seeing from governments around the world are the death spasms of bigotry. Growing pains - it'll pass.

I'm not so sure. I definitely think that full marriage equality and protections for LGBTs is the end point that all Western countries will come to sometime this century, and a lot of fundamentalist religious types in those Western countries are having severe tantrums about that because they know they've already lost and they're desperate, but most of the world won't reach the same conclusion.

The lesson here is that just because a country ends communism it doesn't necessarily mean the end of authoritarianism. If there's another lesson it's that LGBTs are one of the easiest and most effective scapegoats and political distraction tools for governments today and to always be skeptical when you hear someone with power blaming anything on a group of people whose only difference to everyone else is that they fall in love with people that have the same parts as themselves.

http://populationpyramid.net/Russian+Federation/2010/

What low birth-rate? they seem to have a fairly standard populace. Compare the USA here:
http://populationpyramid.net/United+States+of+America/2010/

Would be nice if they state which blocs are supporting it rather than using the blanket statement of "Russian Lawmakers"

Shameful really and I don't know which is worse. The fact that this could simply be ignorant bigotry or an attempt to use this as a way of clutching onto power. Bigots are a blight on the species but someone using other peoples bigotry and intolerance to serve themselves make me want to vomit.

Lunar Shadow:
Would be nice if they state which blocs are supporting it rather than using the blanket statement of "Russian Lawmakers"

According to the article, the law would be country-wide.

ten.to.ten:

itsthesheppy:
These anti-gay measures we're seeing from governments around the world are the death spasms of bigotry. Growing pains - it'll pass.

I'm not so sure. I definitely think that full marriage equality and protections for LGBTs is the end point that all Western countries will come to sometime this century, and a lot of fundamentalist religious types in those Western countries are having severe tantrums about that because they know they've already lost and they're desperate, but most of the world won't reach the same conclusion.

The lesson here is that just because a country ends communism it doesn't necessarily mean the end of authoritarianism. If there's another lesson it's that LGBTs are one of the easiest and most effective scapegoats and political distraction tools for governments today and to always be skeptical when you hear someone with power blaming anything on a group of people whose only difference to everyone else is that they fall in love with people that have the same parts as themselves.

My point is the only reason countries are enacting these anti-gay laws is because rights for homosexuals are in the process of becoming a globally respected thing. It's very early in that process, but already the bigots of the world are seeing the shift and know that their days are numbered, and this is their desperate flailing as they're backed into the corner. It'll pass, slowly, painfully, but it'll pass.

Another example of some scum attempting to use their religion as an excuse to spread their hate.

So back to Religion-state project, ech russia? i guess even if soviets distrupted your plans, you ignore all the change in the world and go on on your merry way? How Dostoyevskyan of you.

TheIronRuler:

.
You're painting "the new world" with one brush... that wasn't the case at all.

That's fair criticism, I still stand by my general point that the cultural infrastructure necessary for a stable democracy doesn't appear overnight, but I accept that my comment was sloppy and lazy and I should really know better. My bad.

Sir Pootis:
http://populationpyramid.net/Russian+Federation/2010/

What low birth-rate? they seem to have a fairly standard populace. Compare the USA here:
http://populationpyramid.net/United+States+of+America/2010/

.
This is "population pyramid", it's not birth rates - birth rates for orthodox ethnic Russian is low, low, low, while other minorities are getting bigger. The solution to the problem is two-fold : Give incentives for ethnic Russians who live abroad to return to Russia (a package made to help them get an apartment, a job, etc.) and encourage births by giving away money to families with children and encouraging more births. This is also, as you have guessed it, mighty expensive. This law is just another measure to try and combat this phenomenon.
.

itsthesheppy:

ten.to.ten:

itsthesheppy:
These anti-gay measures we're seeing from governments around the world are the death spasms of bigotry. Growing pains - it'll pass.

I'm not so sure. I definitely think that full marriage equality and protections for LGBTs is the end point that all Western countries will come to sometime this century, and a lot of fundamentalist religious types in those Western countries are having severe tantrums about that because they know they've already lost and they're desperate, but most of the world won't reach the same conclusion.

The lesson here is that just because a country ends communism it doesn't necessarily mean the end of authoritarianism. If there's another lesson it's that LGBTs are one of the easiest and most effective scapegoats and political distraction tools for governments today and to always be skeptical when you hear someone with power blaming anything on a group of people whose only difference to everyone else is that they fall in love with people that have the same parts as themselves.

My point is the only reason countries are enacting these anti-gay laws is because rights for homosexuals are in the process of becoming a globally respected thing. It's very early in that process, but already the bigots of the world are seeing the shift and know that their days are numbered, and this is their desperate flailing as they're backed into the corner. It'll pass, slowly, painfully, but it'll pass.

.
No. You're also acting awfully towards a very large portion of the world's population.
.

ClockworkPenguin:

TheIronRuler:

.
You're painting "the new world" with one brush... that wasn't the case at all.

That's fair criticism, I still stand by my general point that the cultural infrastructure necessary for a stable democracy doesn't appear overnight, but I accept that my comment was sloppy and lazy and I should really know better. My bad.

.
It's ok, I guess. Do bear in mind that the "republics" in the Americas were republics, not democracies. They did fight against foreign rule - the Spanish, which after Napoleon's withdrawal desperately tried to get back to their colonies. The societies in the new world nations themselves were extremely segregated and unequal, with nothing pertaining to be a democracy at the time. The biggest players in early politics were the rich colonials, the military and the church. Many of these nations fell into authoritarian rule multiple times (Argentina, Chile, Bolivia, Peru, Paraguay.... and lots more). Blimey, just look at Mexico's history!

Saying that about Russia isn't just wrong, it's kinda racist, as if these poor Russians couldn't recognize democracy and western values if it bit their asses.

TheIronRuler:
-snip-

I'm acting awfully? What?

itsthesheppy:

TheIronRuler:
-snip-

I'm acting awfully? What?

.
Your posts. They make it seem as if all of those "bigoted" people live in some far away land where your "enlightened" values won't reach them, but you're sure that with time they will die out or subscribe to your ideals. This is why they're doing it, to try and stop the spread of your "enlightened" ideals!

To summarize, what you're saying is coming from a fairy-tale, or from a person that doesn't know his geo-politics.

TheIronRuler:

itsthesheppy:

TheIronRuler:
-snip-

I'm acting awfully? What?

.
Your posts. They make it seem as if all of those "bigoted" people live in some far away land where your "enlightened" values won't reach them, but you're sure that with time they will die out or subscribe to your ideals. This is why they're doing it, to try and stop the spread of your "enlightened" ideals!

To summarize, what you're saying is coming from a fairy-tale, or from a person that doesn't know his geo-politics.

You might be projecting.

I live in the United States of America, which can hardly stand as a paradigm of tolerance and enlightened forward thinking. Yes, my state recently legalized gay marriage. Others are flat-out banning it and last I checked, DOMA was still a thing.

But I will say that I'm more enlightened than someone, anyone, who stands opposed to equality for homosexuals. You're welcome to defend their bigotry if that is your prerogative. I'm not sure if that is your goal, however. I feel that you have, instead, built up some kind of entirely fictional idea of what you think I might be saying and have ridden off to heroically slay it. Calm down, Quixote. You're tilting at windmills.

Well that's just 40% more backwards.

Seriously, Russia, what are you doing? Too much vodka? I can't possibly express just how appalled I am by this, I mean, seriously, what the actual fuck? It's as if they just have to persecute someone, and now that the "cowboy spies" aren't a thing anymore...blah, I'll stop.

Vegosiux:
Well that's just 40% more backwards.

Seriously, Russia, what are you doing? Too much vodka? I can't possibly express just how appalled I am by this, I mean, seriously, what the actual fuck? It's as if they just have to persecute someone, and now that the "cowboy spies" aren't a thing anymore...blah, I'll stop.

Political scapegoating: focusing the minds of the people onto something simple to blame as the 'cause'. Common political tactic too, because a good portion of people aren't used to handling complexity. Nonetheless, as Skeleon said, disgusting.

Hey guys, you're treating this crap as if it had already passed. My Russian TV news channel says that its implementation (i.e. the debate and vote on it) have been postponed for now because of fights that broke out outside of the main building.

ClockworkPenguin:

Only in the 'New world' did democratic principles thrive, because they where there from the outset, and there was no existing power which lost out by its appearance to fight against it. History teaches us that replacing tyranny with democracy isn't quick or easy.

Not only are you painting the new world with one brush, you are forgetting the majority of the nations in Europe (you know, the ones that were not Germany, Russia, France or Englan).
In fact, the whole of Scandinavia were neither fascistic or authoritarian during the past century.

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