Russia Moves Forward With Anti-Gay Law

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NameIsRobertPaulson:

Lunar Shadow:
Would be nice if they state which blocs are supporting it rather than using the blanket statement of "Russian Lawmakers"

According to the article, the law would be country-wide.

I understand that, I meant WHO is supporting it rather than it's jurisdiction. As in which parties/voting blocs. THe reason I am wondering is that lately American media has been very biased when reporting on Russian news. Just look at the adoption ban, which the news failed to mention is part of a tit-for-tat legislative kerfluffle over the US's Magnitsky Act, which blacklists any Russian officials accused (just accused, not actually proven or convicted ie: without due process) of human rights violations from entering the country. I am tired of the media's protrayal of Russia as monolithic, though I do realize that this may b e partly out of habit fromt eh Cold War. Which may just restart due to petty bullshit like the above.

TheIronRuler:
Hey guys, you're treating this crap as if it had already passed. My Russian TV news channel says that its implementation (i.e. the debate and vote on it) have been postponed for now because of fights that broke out outside of the main building.

The very notion that something like this was proposed is disgusting, and it only gets worse if it is actually passed. I've heard the same nonsense directed at me because I have zero sexual interest in anyone of any gender; as if my other contributions to the world were meaningless because I do not procreate. To propose the persecution of gays over this is beyond the point of ridiculous paranoia and political bullshitting - it is a poor attempt to mediate the people that would lead to much worse off social relations rather than a proposal for an actual method for dealing with the multiple contributions to the problem itself. This incompetence of government, society, and the individuals who make up both cannot be tolerated.

Hap2:

TheIronRuler:
Hey guys, you're treating this crap as if it had already passed. My Russian TV news channel says that its implementation (i.e. the debate and vote on it) have been postponed for now because of fights that broke out outside of the main building.

The very notion that something like this was proposed is disgusting, and it only gets worse if it is actually passed. I've heard the same nonsense directed at me because I have zero sexual interest in anyone of any gender; as if my other contributions to the world were meaningless because I do not procreate. To propose the persecution of gays over this is beyond the point of ridiculous paranoia and political bullshitting - it is a poor attempt to mediate the people that would lead to much worse off social relations rather than a proposal for an actual method for dealing with the multiple contributions to the problem itself. This incompetence of government, society, and the individuals who make up both cannot be tolerated.

.
Ok, I got to be frank with you lot, and any of you that find this 'disgusting' or 'bigoted' or whatever-
You're taking this out of proportions. It's maddening to see this running amok in the thread and stopping myself from answering each and every one of you. Read the god damned proposed bill. It's a flawed view of homosexuality and its spread, in which they think that if information regarding this will not be peddled to minors then its spread will decrease and won't catch onto 'confused' people. This doesn't make homosexuals chattel. This doesn't make homosexuals illegal. This fines organizations and the like that move this 'information' to the young. In their minds, this is something sick that needs to be kept away from the youth of the public - those who are easily influenced. This is no different than other censorship laws (gore in Germany, anyone?). There, I'm done with this fiasco.

Take this into proportion. Other countries execute homosexuals. There are more of these than you think, and the majority of the world's gay community lives under governments that either deny their existence, persecute them or deny them equal rights like any other citizen. This will not fade away soon, and it will cling into our existence. However, a cultural shift is under way. This will not solve a thing, but it will make this phenomenon more tolerable.

This cannot be tolerated? In many of these countries the gays cannot be tolerated. Iran's president goes out and proudly proclaims that he has no homosexuals in his country. Is it because he killed them all? It might be. It's a capital offense. But the gay culture doesn't exist in Iran as it does in any other form in countries that tolerate it.

Realize that homosexuals are being tolerated for the most part in much of the governments that do not treat homosexuality as a crime. There is a long way to go till being gay won't be considered a bad thing. There is a huge difference between this law proposal (and various others regarding homosexuality in Russia) and between the issue of its legality.

that fucking hypocrite. the christian church spent decades under the soviet union being supressed, etc and now they have some power back they want to reintroduce the level of discrimination that gay people had under the soviet union. glad to see they learned nothing

TheIronRuler:

itsthesheppy:

TheIronRuler:
-snip-

I'm acting awfully? What?

.
Your posts. They make it seem as if all of those "bigoted" people live in some far away land where your "enlightened" values won't reach them, but you're sure that with time they will die out or subscribe to your ideals. This is why they're doing it, to try and stop the spread of your "enlightened" ideals!

To summarize, what you're saying is coming from a fairy-tale, or from a person that doesn't know his geo-politics.

I agree with IronRuler. I feel this has less to do with bigotry below the surface, and at the core from the russian point of view is national security. They need to get their birth rates up any way they can in their minds. They're one of the big 3 players in the world and they need to keep their competitive edge.

TheIronRuler:

Hap2:

TheIronRuler:
Hey guys, you're treating this crap as if it had already passed. My Russian TV news channel says that its implementation (i.e. the debate and vote on it) have been postponed for now because of fights that broke out outside of the main building.

The very notion that something like this was proposed is disgusting, and it only gets worse if it is actually passed. I've heard the same nonsense directed at me because I have zero sexual interest in anyone of any gender; as if my other contributions to the world were meaningless because I do not procreate. To propose the persecution of gays over this is beyond the point of ridiculous paranoia and political bullshitting - it is a poor attempt to mediate the people that would lead to much worse off social relations rather than a proposal for an actual method for dealing with the multiple contributions to the problem itself. This incompetence of government, society, and the individuals who make up both cannot be tolerated.

.
Ok, I got to be frank with you lot, and any of you that find this 'disgusting' or 'bigoted' or whatever-
You're taking this out of proportions. It's maddening to see this running amok in the thread and stopping myself from answering each and every one of you. Read the god damned proposed bill. It's a flawed view of homosexuality and its spread, in which they think that if information regarding this will not be peddled to minors then its spread will decrease and won't catch onto 'confused' people. This doesn't make homosexuals chattel. This doesn't make homosexuals illegal. This fines organizations and the like that move this 'information' to the young. In their minds, this is something sick that needs to be kept away from the youth of the public - those who are easily influenced. This is no different than other censorship laws (gore in Germany, anyone?). There, I'm done with this fiasco.

Did you miss the part where public displays of affection and or public rallies (i.e. pride events) were made offenses that were subject to fines and jail time? People should not be forced to hide for something that is neither dirty nor harmful. What this represents is the affirmation of an nonsensical idea of hatred, paranoia, and outright ignorance. Such an idea is fucking disgusting, no matter who it is directed towards.

Take this into proportion. Other countries execute homosexuals. There are more of these than you think, and the majority of the world's gay community lives under governments that either deny their existence, persecute them or deny them equal rights like any other citizen. This will not fade away soon, and it will cling into our existence. However, a cultural shift is under way. This will not solve a thing, but it will make this phenomenon more tolerable.

I am well aware of that. However, that does not make this any less of a move backwards. This is not a removal of barriers, but an addition to appease incompetent masses who cannot be bothered to understand anything more complex than operating a telephone when it comes to social/political issues. Remember that this proposal has two parts: both an anti-gay part, and political scapegoating. The latter only works because the people themselves are so incompetent at understanding that they need to be appeased with something as hateful and stupid as the motivations behind this proposal. Human limitations, both psychological/neurological and circumstantial, in such a case are truly lamentable.

This cannot be tolerated? In many of these countries the gays cannot be tolerated. Iran's president goes out and proudly proclaims that he has no homosexuals in his country. Is it because he killed them all? It might be. It's a capital offense. But the gay culture doesn't exist in Iran as it does in any other form in countries that tolerate it.

Realize that homosexuals are being tolerated for the most part in much of the governments that do not treat homosexuality as a crime. There is a long way to go till being gay won't be considered a bad thing. There is a huge difference between this law proposal (and various others regarding homosexuality in Russia) and between the issue of its legality.

Humanity's continued disinclination to be involved and knowledgeable about political and social issues cannot be tolerated. Perhaps I did not make myself clear enough. The Russian proposal here is one mere example.

As for what you said - simply because other countries commit even more horrendous acts does not make this proposal okay. Blind hatred in any form is still pointlessly destructive, and all too easy to dismiss as insignificant when one is not directly in the line of fire. I am well aware of human limitations when it comes to change and understanding. That does not mean the consequences of letting such limitations dictate one's actions and perspective are no less terrible.

discriminatory law. it's a terrible thing. that said its worth recognising we are not so far in front that we can afford to condemn smugly.

one of the key things i've been involved with in politics in Scotland was the whole "Section 28" thang. my family basically set up and ran the public campaigns opposite to brian souters (the owner of stagecoach) "keep section 28" & private referendum campaign in Scotland. it was us who set up the various Scottish "scrap the clause" websites (including a rather infamous shrine to Wendy Alexander the labour politician leading the then governments move to repeal the clause) as well as soliciting, collating, organising and managing press releases & lobbying and the like. ("we" won btw).

"Section 28" was introduced by the torys as part of the Local Government Act 1988.

it stated a local authority "shall not intentionally promote homosexuality or publish material with the intention of promoting homosexuality" or "promote the teaching in any maintained school of the acceptability of homosexuality as a pretended family relationship".

the effect of this was to effectively ban any discussion/acceptance of being gay as being "normal" in schools.

and that was basically the intent.

it also restricted the ability of schools to tackle any form of bullying with a homophobic content and "its existence caused many groups to close or limit their activities or self-censor. For example, a number of lesbian, gay and bisexual student support groups in schools and colleges across Britain were closed owing to fears by council legal staff that they could breach the Act"

this was in 1988-2003.

in Britain.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Section_28

when talk turned to repeal of the clause under new labour in Scotland brian souters multi-million pound "keep section 28" campaign and quest to hold a privately funded referendum on the subject actually led to since measured upswing in negative attitudes and violence aimed at gay people.

if i could find images of some of the billboard posters that he plastered the country with online you perhaps would find it easy to see why...they were truly appalling anti gay propaganda implying gay people were predatory paedophiles and school teachers wanted to turn children gay the like...and it certainly didn't help that for some reason they thought to was a good idea to go with a binary black, red and white colour scheme...my mother actually screeched the car to a halt in the middle of the main road in town exclaiming "WHAT THE FUCK IS THAT !!!" upon seeing her first one...said poster ended up, not torn down, but defaced for all to see the disapproval of its message. it was the first of many. ofc i have no idea how that happened officer...

even in the last year we still have mention of it : http://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/antihomosexual-section-28-was-right-for-schools-says-tory-mp-8398942.html

so ye it's a terrible thing to make such a law...but i for one am not going to claim we're so far ahead of Russia that we can afford to look down on it from a smug position of assumed societal superiority.

Sounds like this identity group served it's purpose.

Siberia from what I learned is extra cold and snowy this year.

Quite unfortunate.

Now why is the US sucking up to Putin again?

Ironically since Europe is not looking out for themselves for energy, Russia is exporting it to them. So the EU will be a pathetic whimper on statements from this. The bark will be brief, just to reassure the required interest group they will not realize the ruse. It's all for their money and power. Then they go right back to sleep.

Same old tale.

This isn't surprising at all. You turn your back on things, you grow complacent, you give them an inch, you let them have power, and they put us to the flame.

Hap2:

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Did you miss the part where public displays of affection and or public rallies (i.e. pride events) were made offenses that were subject to fines and jail time? People should not be forced to hide for something that is neither dirty nor harmful. What this represents is the affirmation of an nonsensical idea of hatred, paranoia, and outright ignorance. Such an idea is fucking disgusting, no matter who it is directed towards.

.
Organized pride parades, yes. Showing affection in public, no. Hell, I'm wildly uncomfortable going to pride parades myself. I don't want to see people dressed in outrageous clothes trying to stir up shit. If I wanted to do that I would go to an ultra-religious city and watch how people react.

"appease incompetent masses who cannot be bothered to understand anything more complex than operating a telephone when it comes to social/political issues" - How dare you talk down to so many people? Belittle their intelligence just because they don't agree with you? This is exactly what I hate about these threads.

It's anti-homosexual, but it's not what you describe.

TheIronRuler:

Hap2:

.
Did you miss the part where public displays of affection and or public rallies (i.e. pride events) were made offenses that were subject to fines and jail time? People should not be forced to hide for something that is neither dirty nor harmful. What this represents is the affirmation of an nonsensical idea of hatred, paranoia, and outright ignorance. Such an idea is fucking disgusting, no matter who it is directed towards.

.
Organized pride parades, yes. Showing affection in public, no. Hell, I'm wildly uncomfortable going to pride parades myself. I don't want to see people dressed in outrageous clothes trying to stir up shit. If I wanted to do that I would go to an ultra-religious city and watch how people react.

Pride parades are not for someone like you, nobody is strapping you down and forcing your eyes open to watch. I don't go to them either (I am a quiet introvert), but at the very least I try to understand why they exist. I repeat: people should not be forced to hide for something that is neither dirty nor harmful. While some societies have begun to get their act together, others, as you yourself said, persecute gays for simply existing, as if they were morally shameful and thus deserving of scorn and harm. Pride parades are a counter to that - an event to show and for its participants to feel that being of a different sexuality is not shameful; it is part of who we are, and we ought to take pride in that, no matter what sexuality we have. Trying to pass off short sighted nonsense that pride parades are merely attempts "to stir up shit" is useless for discussion.

"appease incompetent masses who cannot be bothered to understand anything more complex than operating a telephone when it comes to social/political issues" - How dare you talk down to so many people? Belittle their intelligence just because they don't agree with you? This is exactly what I hate about these threads.

Take your false sense of outrage somewhere else, I'm not buying it. Let me dredge up something from the Liberals vs Conservatives thread I posted in regarding society, individuals, and their governments, since you do not seem to have any interest in quoting things within their context:

Hap2:
Never meant it to be, hence why I added the values aspect as well. I completely agree that there are more ways to manipulate than just appeals to emotions, such as values, the language one uses, the way information is slanted towards an audience, etc. Our psychology has a number of terrible flaws that often work against us and go unnoticed even when we are vigil. Though I admit, I was half asleep when I wrote that last post, so my usual editing skills were not up to their usual standard; I should have had a "such as" somewhere in there; my apologies.

The problem I was trying to get at is that conservatives are using such psychological flaws to their advantage, while various progressive groups seem to be letting themselves get steamrolled in the hope that people will be rational. As evilthecat demonstrated in the quote you provided, conservatives are using our flaws to manufacture 'truths' as opposed to using real fact (e.g. 'job creators', 'climate change' (instead of global warming), 'small business' instead of capitalism, etc.). As brutal as this sounds: humans are, for the most part, not rational creatures. Unless we have been raised or trained to use careful reasoning and skepticism, we will often 'think with our gut' instead of our minds, and even with such training there are no guarantees (conservative politicians seem to understand and exploit this, whereas progressives are failing to work a counter to turn things around). One still can be deluded about oneself and one's motives and be incapable of recognizing one's problems - addictions are a good example of this.

A philosopher's life is neither simple nor easy however. It is often more easier for people to let themselves be swayed by their 'gut' then it is to maintain that precarious balance on the cliffs of skepticism towards oneself and others without falling into the darkness of outright cynicism and utter self-doubt. Frankly, I find it immensely frustrating. So many of us desire the world to change, but so few seem to wish to take what little responsibility and power they have and make use of it. More often than not, those that do are out to make the world easier for themselves: ideologists with no sense of grounding or fact, who are often under the conservative banner rather than progressive; though I cannot say I am much in favour of today's progressives either - these problems of understanding are not exclusive to the right. We civilians are more content to sit back and whine like impatient dogs than we are to act like responsible adults and be realistic about what we can and cannot do right here, right now.

That must change if we are to work towards a future without petty partisan nonsense.

If we are being realistic about human beings, a large portion of us are apathetic, complacent, and unaware of or indifferent to our psychological, mental, and physical limitations; and how to handle them. Problems such as anthropogenic global warming do not pop up overnight after all. This apathy cannot always be helped, usually due to biological and circumstantial elements - no one is exempt from such things. However, we are not completely helpless either, and too many have become comfortable with saying "I want the world to change for the better, I want it fixed", while at the same time saying "I can't be bothered, it's not my problem, let someone else do it". Politicians are let loose on a long leash, and people who cannot be bothered to deal with understanding the complexities of life end up having to be appeased so the politicians can maintain their power base. Hence we get nonsense like this proposal.

This Russian proposal is nothing more than a political scapegoating that appeals to one of the simplest human emotional states: hatred for that which one does not understand. Such a political move can only exist in a society where the individuals that compose it irresponsibly leave whatever power of understanding they have lay fallow.

Hap2:
Human limitations, both psychological/neurological and circumstantial, in such a case are truly lamentable.

The solution:

Hap2:
If we could not be manipulated, politicians wouldn't rely on corrupt tactics. Tactics that work continuously tend to become tactics that are used continuously. If people really want to fix the world, they should start with what they can do with themselves. Read from multiple sources, analyze the facts and opinions carefully, use skepticism towards others and your own knowledge, ask questions, don't assume you know shit about a field you have no expertise in, etc. We are all responsible for how our countries are governed - blaming only the politicians (not that they are any less responsible) is nothing more than an affirmation of our incompetence and willingness to let others run our lives for us.

Instead of reading something polemical and seeing only offense (and that includes cherry-picking quotes out of their context to paint me in a false light), read critically and do not assume anything. This proposal is not merely a failing of politicians and an encouragement for hatred, it is a failure of society if we truly need to be appeased in such a manner. That, as I said, is both lamentable, and disgusting.

Wow, I thought America had problems with this. At least we're slowly moving forward, Russia is actively moving backwards.

Looks like it was backed by parliament.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-21194710

It's a shame things like this happen in the world.

Hey! Russia is still Russia! What a surprise. I'm currently reading "A Concise History of Russia by Paul Bushkovitch, and I have to honestly say that I don't think the Russians have ever had a happy government. A powerful government, yes, but a happy government? A nice government? I don't think they've EVER had a government that has treated the people well. Gorbachev was as close as they ever got a good leader (and he wasn't that good).

They're doing it more as a symbolic "rejection" of Western Values. They still see themselves as being "different" to the "yankees" and they want to assert this difference as a source of cultural and nationalistic pride. If the US didn't tolerate gay people, I can guarantee you Russia would not be making as big a deal about it.

They're also going to gradually expand these laws to cover any other type of protest. Like in the "good" ol soviet days, any dissent or criticism of Putin or The "united russia party" will be seen as "Foreign influence" and be crushed.

Well. That's sad. But on the other hand, this new wave of repression in Russia has resurrected the age old tradition of hilarious Russian Political Jokes! Here's one, from Russia itself:

Stalin's ghost appears to Putin in a dream, and Putin asks for his help running the country. Stalin says, "Round up and shoot all the democrats, and then paint the inside of the Kremlin blue." "Why blue?" Putin asks. "Ha!" says Stalin. "I knew you wouldn't ask me about the first part."

Seems the LGBT community has a tough fight for rights in Russia. There is equal support for making homosexual acts criminal and banning of discrimination of LGBT members. Those are not good numbers.

NameIsRobertPaulson:
Thoughts? Concerns? Ideas?

My first thought?

"This thread title doesn't really stack up. Seems more like they're moving backwards to me"

Second thought was more along the lines of "Oh look, another excuse to crack down on people who disagree with the government"

Well I am moving to Russia<----- Just kidding I am libertarian. But what do you expect. When the U.S somewhat won the Cold War we didn't run over to Russia, and did Germany/Japan like treaties telling them what to do, and how to do it because we were tired of the Cold War. As long as Russia as not Communist we were Okay. But just so you know this is the same country who rigs their election, and has a average male life expectancy of 64 years. Social control freaks who do try to control someone's lifestyle should be stopped on both sides both Liberal, and conservative.

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