muslim patrol why?

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after seeing this


and what it sparked

i am askng myself, why?

i know that its a minority of (extremist religious) muslims that is unfortunately souring the view about muslims in the uk in general.

my question is:
if they want to live in a state with sharia law, why did they even move to a country without it? whats the point?
has integration and respect (to the state you currently live in) become something inconceivable in general?
and cant the state do anything (more effective) against them harassing people that dont want to share their lifestyles?

are these legitimate questions or am i just feeding attention whoring trolls?

inb4:
image
yes, i know its like kicking the hornets nest, but i want to know whats your take on this situation.

and please, for the love of your "humanity" keep conversations as polite as you can.

Er, like you say, extremist minority. That's why.

Mind you, there is a lot of exaggeration about anything with the word Sharia in it. "Sharia law in the UK" sounds a lot scarier than "Muslims in the UK are turning to their religious leaders for advice in resolving disputes between themselves". As a result, I'd be wary of any report that uses that word.

It's only a minority who are this intolerant but still, this sort of case shows the importance of trying to get immigrants who are edcuated and share our values. Hardline Islam requires adherence to Sharia law and so is fundamentally incompatible with democracy. The UK is a hell of a popular destination for immigrants so it's not like we can't afford to be picky, we should try to limit immigration to mainly Western countries or nations like Japan who's values are fairly compatible with our own.

Two issues-
1. Someone from within the community wants to leave the community or the old lifestyle they lived in,
2. and a group in the community enforcing their ideals on the whole community.

I think I said it before - I don't mind religious courts. There are some issues with it, most prominent of which as people who are of no faith or those who refuse to fall under that jurisdiction, but otherwise go ahead.

rhizhim:
if they want to live in a state with sharia law, why did they even move to a country without it? whats the point?

I'm sure most of them were born and/or raised in the UK. I even saw a ginger muslim there, too. I doubt he's from Morocco.

Many muslims in Europe live by their beliefs more strictly because they're in a foreign culture. When you see muslims in Turkey, they're nowhere near as strict and traditional in how they dress. As a matter of fact, Turkey is more strict about not allowing women to wear headscrafs in class than any European country.

As for the video... It seemed more like just two retards rather than an actual movement, but then I'm not too well known with the whole Islam situation in Britian. We got Sharia4Holland over here, but they haven't been in the news for a long time now. Seeing stuff like this still pisses me off though.

Casual Shinji:

rhizhim:
if they want to live in a state with sharia law, why did they even move to a country without it? whats the point?

I'm sure most of them were born and/or raised in the UK. I even saw a ginger muslim there, too. I doubt he's from Morocco.

Many muslims in Europe live by their beliefs more strictly because they're in a foreign culture. When you see muslims in Turkey, they're nowhere near as strict and traditional in how they dress. As a matter of fact, Turkey is more strict about not allowing women to wear headscrafs in class than any European country.

As for the video... It seemed more like just two retards rather than an actual movement, but then I'm not too well known with the whole Islam situation in Britian. We got Sharia4Holland over here, but they haven't been in the news for a long time now. Seeing stuff like this still pisses me off though.

i doubt that. and turkey doesnt fully support sharia law.

Sharia in the secular Muslim states:
Muslim countries such as Mali, Kazakhstan, and Turkey have declared themselves to be secular, meaning religious interference in state affairs, law, and politics is prohibited. In short, sharia is limited to personal and family matters.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharia

you should look on a country where sharia law is in full effect, meaning countries like saudi arabia, iran etc.

The really important rules to beware of are enshrined in written Saudi law, with criminals subject to the full strength of the infamous Saudi penal system. In addition to obvious crimes like murder (punishable by beheading) and theft (amputation of the hand for repeat offenders), acts considered serious crimes include adultery, homosexual activity and possession of alcohol or drugs.
In practice, though, most visitors will be primarily concerned with the code of morality, involving things like women not covering up properly, not observing prayer or (during Ramadan) fasting times, etc. These rules are enforced by the infamous muttawa (pl. mutawain), the zealous volunteers of the religious police formally known as the Committee for the Propagation of Virtue and the Prevention of Vice.

the countries where women can be punished with lashes

for wearing pants
http://www.deccanherald.com/content/120668/F

for driving a car
http://www.nola.com/crime/index.ssf/2011/09/saudi_woman_sentenced_to_10_la.html

for being gang raped:
http://www.hicktownpress.com/saudi-arabian-woman-ordered-jailed-and-whipped-for-being-gang-raped/

and so on.

wearing or not wearing a Hijab is a minor concern and its not enforced by sharia law(only by parents).

but still, the moral police can force you to go back into a burning building for not wearing one

Saudi Arabia's religious police stopped schoolgirls from leaving a blazing building because they were not wearing correct Islamic dress, according to Saudi newspapers

In a rare criticism of the kingdom's powerful "mutaween" police, the Saudi media has accused them of hindering attempts to save 15 girls who died in the fire on Monday

....
According to the al-Eqtisadiah daily, firemen confronted police after they tried to keep the girls inside because they were not wearing the headscarves and abayas (black robes) required by the kingdom's strict interpretation of Islam

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/1874471.stm

It's clear that these vigilante power-tripping numbskulls don't represent the majority, but I think it's clear that Islam as a political movement or ideology is potentially very harmful, especially when it comes into conflict with western society (isn't that basically what the current French intervention in Mali is about?).

I hope the group of bullies shown in the video get taught a lesson about how welcome their views are.

Bah! I shall counter them by wandering the streets with alcohol and bacon! If they show up, I'll really piss them off. If not, I'll have a great time.

What a couple of assholes. I've always hated bullies, and that's all that these two idiots are: bullies. I get the same feeling watching this video whenever I see a video of someone else doing something dickish to people you can tell can't, or won't, defend themselves. It's not too difficult to find other people doing the same thing with different ideals because they all have the same intentions: "I'm going to put you down because I know you won't do anything to stop me."

WaitWHAT:
Bah! I shall counter them by wandering the streets with alcohol and bacon! If they show up, I'll really piss them off. If not, I'll have a great tiem.

Pelting them with bacon is a just and tasty punishment. Is there laws against throwing an entire bloody ham at a person? I dont think there should be.

I think we should set up "Dont be a random twat to other people" patrol. We enforce the idea that ambushing and intimidating lone people to follow your religion is abhorrent and disgusting. All can be armed with bacon and beer.

BiscuitTrouser:

Pelting them with bacon is a just and tasty punishment. Is there laws against throwing an entire bloody ham at a person? I don't think there should be. [T,IFTFY]

I think we should set up "Dont be a random twat to other people" patrol. We enforce the idea that ambushing and intimidating lone people to follow your religion is abhorrent and disgusting. All can be armed with bacon and beer.

You know what? I say we take this to its logical conclusion and throw all-night street parties with beer and various delicious pig products. It's the only sensible thing to do.

To quote my British friends; this has really gotten my knickers in a twist. If it was me I would probably come back with big scary men and scantily dressed women to piss them off some more. This kind of crap is really unacceptable, but I don't think anyone is denying that.

It's something really dangerous. If you allow such gangs to operate and terrorise communities, they have a huge impact because they force people to radicalise. Not just that, but those unwilling to be bullied into submission will in turn stand up against them, other ethnicities will see this and resent it, the overal result being more violence.

So combating this sort of 'moral enforcement gang' should be a police priority wherever such groups are active. There've been good results from singling out and targeting these groups specifically. Harass the community? The police harasses you right back if you're known to be a member. Arrest them as soon as you have something, challenge them if they're hanging around somewhere, take every complaint about them seriously, never assume anything they're involved with to be 'just an incident'.

Ussually that curtails such a group's influence and drives the members apart.


Although I'm writing that from a Dutch city where police has lost effective control over entire neighbourhoods to such islamic enforcement gangs, sadly, and our spineless socialist mayor is still refusing to do anything other than pretend to be shocked after gay rights activists report 23 couples each year are terrorised out of their houses by such gangs. Oh yeah, of course one Moroccan family who got bullied from their home because 2 of their sons were such neighbourhood terrorists received a new house for free, money to compensate them and police attention. But if you're white, or even worse, homosexual, then fuck you for as far as the mayor is concerned. And he commands the police, sadly, who try their best, but their hands are tied.

There've not been any convictions yet despite it being dozens of perpetrators and hundreds and hundreds of crimes. The only two arrests on the grounds of arson, assault and systematic vandalism were acquitted on the grounds that 'they wouldn't learn from punishment' in an ununderstandable verdict that reeks of racism.

So take a hint from a place that tried to ignore such a problem and suffered for it: Don't give such extremist groups any chance to operate.

thaluikhain:
Er, like you say, extremist minority. That's why.

Mind you, there is a lot of exaggeration about anything with the word Sharia in it. "Sharia law in the UK" sounds a lot scarier than "Muslims in the UK are turning to their religious leaders for advice in resolving disputes between themselves". As a result, I'd be wary of any report that uses that word.

Sharia in the UK is allot more scarier than Muslims in the UK for sure and for good reasons...
You can be a Muslim, a Catholic heck even a Pastafarian aslong as you keep it to your self, Sharia law has no place in any kind of a western society, unless you really like hanging gays, lashing women, and cutting the hands of thieves...

Does anyone know exactly whereabouts this is in London? It's about this time of year I like to take a stroll through my nation's capital, perhaps enjoying a bacon sandwich or two & some mulled cider.

EDIT: Apparently this is Whitechapel & Tower Hamlets. However this chap is gratifying in his response (though I've already got a few friends together for a nice evening stroll around the area tomorrow evening with mulled cider & bacon sandwiches).

In the first video in the OP I noticed 0:30 Assault (apprehension for one's safety from illegal violence), robbery according to section 8 of the 1968 Theft Act ( http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1968/60/section/8 ), littering, & sexual harassment at various points in the video.

2nd EDIT: Two men have already been arrested & charged "on suspicion of causing grievous bodily harm and public order offences". Good stuff!
http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2013/01/22/london-two-men-arrested-in-connection-with-anti-gay-muslim-area-video/

catalyst8:
snip

Thanks for sharing the video, good to get a balanced, and near-as-dammit "official" Muslim response to this.

I'd give the "bevvies and sarnies on tour" treatment a miss though, that's just silly tit-for-tat stuff which will completely bypass the intended recipients (they've already been charged in addition to being denounced as a pair of twats by their own community) and if anything will just inspire more partisan bullshit. Let it be.

Well where else are we going to get our petrol....

...Oh wait its that kind of patrol.
Well ignore them as long as they dont do anything illegal, charge them when they do.

Am I a terrible person for wishing that these two knuckleheads would have pulled this stunt in the WRONG neighborhood?

Blablahb:
It's something really dangerous. If you allow such gangs to operate and terrorise communities, they have a huge impact because they force people to radicalise. Not just that, but those unwilling to be bullied into submission will in turn stand up against them, other ethnicities will see this and resent it, the overal result being more violence.

So combating this sort of 'moral enforcement gang' should be a police priority wherever such groups are active. There've been good results from singling out and targeting these groups specifically. Harass the community? The police harasses you right back if you're known to be a member. Arrest them as soon as you have something, challenge them if they're hanging around somewhere, take every complaint about them seriously, never assume anything they're involved with to be 'just an incident'.

Ussually that curtails such a group's influence and drives the members apart.


Although I'm writing that from a Dutch city where police has lost effective control over entire neighbourhoods to such islamic enforcement gangs, sadly, and our spineless socialist mayor is still refusing to do anything other than pretend to be shocked after gay rights activists report 23 couples each year are terrorised out of their houses by such gangs. Oh yeah, of course one Moroccan family who got bullied from their home because 2 of their sons were such neighbourhood terrorists received a new house for free, money to compensate them and police attention. But if you're white, or even worse, homosexual, then fuck you for as far as the mayor is concerned. And he commands the police, sadly, who try their best, but their hands are tied.

There've not been any convictions yet despite it being dozens of perpetrators and hundreds and hundreds of crimes. The only two arrests on the grounds of arson, assault and systematic vandalism were acquitted on the grounds that 'they wouldn't learn from punishment' in an ununderstandable verdict that reeks of racism.

So take a hint from a place that tried to ignore such a problem and suffered for it: Don't give such extremist groups any chance to operate.

I know we aren't often on the same page on things, but you said this even better than I could have and I applaud it. Crap like this easily get's out of control if you just laugh it off.

Erm, why? Dunno. Probably for different reasons. I'd expect some came to the UK because they had to (be it that they were hunted or at risk where they used to live or whether their parents went there for a better life and they had no say in it). Or maybe they were more moderate but fell in with a crowd of Sharia-pushers already in the UK. I'm very doubtful of, say, the idea that people purposefully go somewhere in order to isolate themselves, even if that's the actual result. I'm also very doubtful of ideas of a "stealth jihad" and the like, that they are actively trying to infiltrate society to spread their views. I'd assume it's more like this: They go there, see that the way the British do things often don't match up with their views/the views they were taught then and then try to change it because, in their extremism, they see something wrong with secularization and freedom. Anyway, yes, the important thing is to remember that these are extremists; plenty of Muslims (or former Muslims as it were) integrate quite well.

This seems less like an organised vigilante gang and more like some drunk teenagers who haven't thought about how stupid they seem and how bad they make their religion look.
Does anyone else think that some of this stuff about violent Muslims actually being people who aren't Muslims and just trying to make Islam look bad?

Hazzard:

Does anyone else think that some of this stuff about violent Muslims actually being people who aren't Muslims and just trying to make Islam look bad?

Not intentionally no, but that's the end result yes. I think alienation a big part of it. For Muslims who don't feel apart of mainstream society there is a risk of them shutting themselves off from the world and only associating with like-minded people. This collective group-think can easily get more and more radical (there's quite a few psychological studies which have been done on this) to the point that what these small groups of of radicals reason themselves into plain lunacy. This is possibly what these brothers have done.

BiscuitTrouser:

WaitWHAT:
Bah! I shall counter them by wandering the streets with alcohol and bacon! If they show up, I'll really piss them off. If not, I'll have a great tiem.

Pelting them with bacon is a just and tasty punishment. Is there laws against throwing an entire bloody ham at a person? I dont think there should be.

Look, I get that you're joking, but that's really fucked up. No, you are wrong, there absolutely should be laws against that. We can't countenance that kind of bheaviour - it's deeply, deeply offensive.

Seriously, why would you waste ham like that?

I would say this is the reason why many people in the UK dislike it. This is from what I hear from Pat Condell.

http://frontpagemag.com/2011/mark-tapson/the-rise-of-islamic-no-go-zones/

If they did that near my neighborhood they would have been crippled at the very least.

Gergar12:
I would say this is the reason why many people in the UK dislike it. This is from what I hear from Pat Condell.

http://frontpagemag.com/2011/mark-tapson/the-rise-of-islamic-no-go-zones/

If they did that near my neighborhood they would have been crippled at the very least.

That doesn't seem to be from Pat Condell, but from someone called Mark Tapson. In addition to that, the site itself seems to have a far-right bias.

Hazzard:
Does anyone else think that some of this stuff about violent Muslims actually being people who aren't Muslims and just trying to make Islam look bad?

Uh, no, I'd write off that idea as a conspiracy theory with possible racist intentions in a second, because I pretty much can't go out without getting harassed in some form by similar islamic gangs. Like on the 5th of january, a new year's party. Went out at 5.00 with some friends, heading back to where we parked the car, first intersection we're waiting at on foot we get yelled at from a car by islamic youths, Moroccans judging by the accent, saying stuff like "Dick in your ass" and "Hey slut, yes, you slut" at the women.

And that sort of shit happens every weekend, and it's only a small step from that form of harassment, to the organised harassment shown in the video the OP posted.

Ussually they go away if you threaten to smash their windshield though.

Gergar12:
I would say this is the reason why many people in the UK dislike it. This is from what I hear from Pat Condell.
http://frontpagemag.com/2011/mark-tapson/the-rise-of-islamic-no-go-zones/
If they did that near my neighborhood they would have been crippled at the very least.

Frontpagemag is an ultra-conservative blog that openly worships Glen Beck. I'd disregard every single word they write if I were you.

For instance what they write that British police have stopped patrolling in such areas and crimes are no longer prosecuted is just a bold faced lie. Also the idea that as a non-Muslim, you could no longer enter an area terrorised by such a sharia brigade is downright ludicrous: They harass and intimidate people. They don't summarily execute every non-Muslim they encounter, they don't have have weapons to do that due to Britain's gun laws. If you walk in there and are confronted by them you can easily challenge them right back to either bring it or sod off. It's for a reason that you only see the cowards confronting women or men who are alone when bystanders are far away: They know damn well they're too weak and cowardly to do anything else.

It's a problem, sure, one that can escalate if the police doesn't tackle it. But the 'no go zones for non-muslims' that that silly blog writes is just rubbish, nothing like that exists.

Gergar12:
I would say this is the reason why many people in the UK dislike it. This is from what I hear from Pat Condell.

http://frontpagemag.com/2011/mark-tapson/the-rise-of-islamic-no-go-zones/

If they did that near my neighborhood they would have been crippled at the very least.

The comments on that website made me cry blood. Eugh.

The UK is nothing like as bad as they say it is. I live here. I walk through London. Through Reading. Through Bristol. Ive NEVER EVEN MET A MUSLIM in this country for fucks sake as far as im aware? There were none in my school that i was aware of and its a fairly open and mixed school, i knew more Sikhs. They are only 5% of our population, atheists WELL outnumber them. Is it you thats keen on reminding people not to presume to know about a country that you dont live in?

That said im just commenting that this problem is being blown WAY out of proportion in terms of its size, not that it ISNT a problem. Where this does happen its a problem and MUST be addressed. This is NOT ok. Lets ignore culture, allowing someone to create "Anarchy" zones similar to Somalia wouldnt be acceptable and neither is "Islam" zones with their own laws. Being part of our society is a two way deal. And those videos disgusted me. We need to destroy these zones where ever there is hard evidence that they exist. Have undercover cops wander around with empty beer cans and wait. Lure them out and get rid of them. Just dont turn this into some kind of "Culture war" when its really an "Asshole war".

Blablahb:

Hazzard:
Does anyone else think that some of this stuff about violent Muslims actually being people who aren't Muslims and just trying to make Islam look bad?

Uh, no, I'd write off that idea as a conspiracy theory with possible racist intentions in a second, because I pretty much can't go out without getting harassed in some form by similar islamic gangs. Like on the 5th of january, a new year's party. Went out at 5.00 with some friends, heading back to where we parked the car, first intersection we're waiting at on foot we get yelled at from a car by islamic youths, Moroccans judging by the accent, saying stuff like "Dick in your ass" and "Hey slut, yes, you slut" at the women.

And that sort of shit happens every weekend, and it's only a small step from that form of harassment, to the organised harassment shown in the video the OP posted.

Ussually they go away if you threaten to smash their windshield though.

Gergar12:
I would say this is the reason why many people in the UK dislike it. This is from what I hear from Pat Condell.
http://frontpagemag.com/2011/mark-tapson/the-rise-of-islamic-no-go-zones/
If they did that near my neighborhood they would have been crippled at the very least.

Frontpagemag is an ultra-conservative blog that openly worships Glen Beck. I'd disregard every single word they write if I were you.

For instance what they write that British police have stopped patrolling in such areas and crimes are no longer prosecuted is just a bold faced lie. Also the idea that as a non-Muslim, you could no longer enter an area terrorised by such a sharia brigade is downright ludicrous: They harass and intimidate people. They don't summarily execute every non-Muslim they encounter, they don't have have weapons to do that due to Britain's gun laws. If you walk in there and are confronted by them you can easily challenge them right back to either bring it or sod off. It's for a reason that you only see the cowards confronting women or men who are alone when bystanders are far away: They know damn well they're too weak and cowardly to do anything else.

It's a problem, sure, one that can escalate if the police doesn't tackle it. But the 'no go zones for non-muslims' that that silly blog writes is just rubbish, nothing like that exists.

I mainly did it because I wanted people to see the poster, and I trust Glenn Beck more than Moore, and Rush.

they are telling people not to drink and to not support prostituton, they arent being very polite about, but these are actually positive things for the communty, muslim or not.

Well if they went around on a saturday night where i live telling people not to drink then theyd be counting the fingers from the inside of their faces.

I wonder if anyone would be up for a hedonist patrol reminding people they only live once

Frokane:
they are telling people not to drink and to not support prostituton, they arent being very polite about, but these are actually positive things for the communty, muslim or not.

The problem is that's hardly the only thing they do, and even if it wasn't, you don't want street gangs bullying people into doing what they want.

Frokane:
they are telling people not to drink and to not support prostituton, they arent being very polite about, but these are actually positive things for the communty, muslim or not.

They have moved to the United Kingdom, made famous for its Victoria era culture and they're telling people to NOT drink or whore?

I'm sorry, but that's what the UK is famous for. Gettin' drunk and fuckin' wenches. Keeps the economy moving.

catalyst8:
Does anyone know exactly whereabouts this is in London? It's about this time of year I like to take a stroll through my nation's capital, perhaps enjoying a bacon sandwich or two & some mulled cider.

EDIT: Apparently this is Whitechapel & Tower Hamlets. However this chap is gratifying in his response (though I've already got a few friends together for a nice evening stroll around the area tomorrow evening with mulled cider & bacon sandwiches).

In the first video in the OP I noticed 0:30 Assault (apprehension for one's safety from illegal violence), robbery according to section 8 of the 1968 Theft Act ( http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1968/60/section/8 ), littering, & sexual harassment at various points in the video.

He makes a very good point, force and intimidation just build walls between communities.

BiscuitTrouser:

The UK is nothing like as bad as they say it is. I live here. I walk through London. Through Reading. Through Bristol. Ive NEVER EVEN MET A MUSLIM in this country for fucks sake as far as im aware?

If you've visited London as you say, I guarantee you that you've met Muslims. Unless your last visit of London was limited to a stroll through Notting Hill before having tea at Buckingham Palace...

Frokane:
they are telling people not to drink and to not support prostituton, they arent being very polite about, but these are actually positive things for the communty, muslim or not.

I'll have to flat-out disagree with this, if only because drinking and sex are completely personal choices which no jumped-up little prick with a head-full of braying religious dogma has a right to question, let alone enforce their morality on. Besides, did you watch the video? The woman they picked on wasn't a prostitute, she was a normal young woman wearing a skirt. And they took exception to that.

If I wanted to make a bigoted counterpoint I might add that religious extremism, jihadism and misogyny are't very positive things for the community, but that would be an unfair generalisation.

Dryk:
[quote="catalyst8" post="528.399183.16367013"]


He makes a very good point, force and intimidation just build walls between communities.

Quoted with the video because if anybody hasn't yet watched it, they really should before forming an opinion on this matter.

A quick summary of the salient points: Sharia law isn't a tool of cultural domination. It's a code of conduct that applies to Muslims only. Even within Muslim-majority countries it includes various exemptions and concessions to non-Muslims, enshrining freedom of religion and from religion. Sharia makes absolutely no argument for evangelical or vigilante actions - in fact, under the correct interpretations of Sharia, those two young twats are obliged to refund the white guy the cost of his beer since they made him pour it away.

Don't get me wrong, I still have several fundamental points of contention with mainstream Islam, but in this case it would be wrong to attribute the wrongdoing of the individuals to the teaching of the religion, as they really don't match up at all.

Frokane:
they are telling people not to drink and to not support prostituton, they arent being very polite about, but these are actually positive things for the communty, muslim or not.

So not wearing a full body covering = supporting prostitution?

Seriously, dude? Seriously?

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