muslim patrol why?

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GunsmithKitten:

Frokane:
they are telling people not to drink and to not support prostituton, they arent being very polite about, but these are actually positive things for the communty, muslim or not.

So not wearing a full body covering = supporting prostitution?

Can you imagine if they walked past an Anime/Gaming Convention? Lots of scantily clad cosplayers there.

Frokane:
they are telling people not to drink and to not support prostituton, they arent being very polite about, but these are actually positive things for the communty, muslim or not.

No, they're breaking the law. As I previously pointed out

catalyst8:
In the first video in the OP I noticed 0:30 Assault (apprehension for one's safety from illegal violence), robbery according to section 8 of the 1968 Theft Act ( http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1968/60/section/8 ), littering, & sexual harassment at various points in the video.

2nd EDIT: Two men have already been arrested & charged "on suspicion of causing grievous bodily harm and public order offences". Good stuff!
http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2013/01/22/london-two-men-arrested-in-connection-with-anti-gay-muslim-area-video/

Sexual harassment, homophobic harassment, assault, & theft are far from 'positive things for the community', they're highly illegal activities, especially when performed in such a bigoted & divisive way.

The police are appealing for further witnesses to step forward, & if any do they expect to level further charges.

rhizhim:
after seeing this


and what it sparked

i am askng myself, why?

i know that its a minority of (extremist religious) muslims that is unfortunately souring the view about muslims in the uk in general.

my question is:
if they want to live in a state with sharia law, why did they even move to a country without it? whats the point?
has integration and respect (to the state you currently live in) become something inconceivable in general?
and cant the state do anything (more effective) against them harassing people that dont want to share their lifestyles?

are these legitimate questions or am i just feeding attention whoring trolls?

inb4:
image
yes, i know its like kicking the hornets nest, but i want to know whats your take on this situation.

and please, for the love of your "humanity" keep conversations as polite as you can.

You have to understand that one of the tenets of Islam is to conquer the rest of the world and to convert everyone else to Islam as well.

As I've pointed out for years, we're not dealing with a whack job fringe of people but an entire culture that is the root of this problem. The actual terrorists might be few, but the people involved in the culture who continue to spread and propagate these ideas produce an endless supply of terrorists and radicals.

People tend to forget things like the huge Shiite parades when Saddam fell, with the people lining up to publically display rituals that were once banned like chain whipping themselves. Not to mention that Bin Ladin agreed to surrender to face judgement but only under the laws of other Muslim nations where religion could be used as a defense for his actions, knowing he would be found innocent (and of course that we'd never go for it).

The rather weak western response to things like the 9/11 attacks, and acts of placation like employers providing Muslim prayer rooms, making allowances in dress codes for Muslim facial hair, turbans, etc... and of course walking such fine line in respecting mosques when it comes to law enforcement investigations (even having lady cops address submissive postures and modes of dress during investigations and questionings at times) have done nothing but encourage further actions. Someone comes into a country like the US or other nation that doesn't have a dominantly Muslim population, starts preaching Sharia and the Middle Eastern version of the religion, points at how things are being made to change slowly but surely due to the efforts at placation, and it's then easy to get angry young men riled and point them to various training camps, websites, etc... to get more involved. Sure only those guys might become terrorists, but the ones spreading the ideas and such who might not be breaking any laws in doing it simply ensure an endless stream of recruits.

It's a pretty typical missionary strategy to be honest, Christians did it all the time, except back during the days when Christians did it, things were a bit more dangerous since the authorities generally didn't tolerant the attempts to the point we do today.

This has kind of been the issue from the beginning. See if it was simply a case of Muslims staying down in The Middle East and minding their own business, and tourists and visitors on both sides doing the old "when in rome" thing (Muslims adapting to Western society when they come here, and visitors respecting the customs when they go there) it wouldn't be that big of an issue. Unfortunatly the culture hasn't really changed away from the whole "convert or kill all heathens and infidels" thing, so simply by being differant you wind up being on their list.

A lot of people talk about the oil being the root of the problem, but really it's kind of irrelevent. At the end of the day The Middle East has tons of oil and needs money and other goods. For the most part the leadership is more than happen to trade oil with whomever wants to buy it, there is just as a lot of squabbling over price and such. While it gets dragged into politics because it's the reason for a lot of western prescence down there, it's kind of a tertiary issue because the problem wouldn't go away unless we isolated the entire region somehow. As you point out, we've got guys who go out of their way to try and bring these teachings and things like Sharia into other societies and promote it. If the oil trade dropped tomorrow, you'd still have Islamics trying to kill or convert non-Islamics since really it's not an exceedingly tolerant religion, and involves the subjugation of women and other things as fundemental
principles, to which societies like that of the US, UK, etc... are anathema.

That's what I think at any rate (even if many won't agree with me), and I believe it answers your question.

Therumancer:
You have to understand that one of the tenets of Islam is to conquer the rest of the world and to convert everyone else to Islam as well.

As I've pointed out for years, we're not dealing with a whack job fringe of people but an entire culture that is the root of this problem. The actual terrorists might be few, but the people involved in the culture who continue to spread and propagate these ideas produce an endless supply of terrorists and radicals.

People tend to forget things like the huge Shiite parades when Saddam fell, with the people lining up to publically display rituals that were once banned like chain whipping themselves. Not to mention that Bin Ladin agreed to surrender to face judgement but only under the laws of other Muslim nations where religion could be used as a defense for his actions, knowing he would be found innocent (and of course that we'd never go for it).

The rather weak western response to things like the 9/11 attacks, and acts of placation like employers providing Muslim prayer rooms,

From that swathe of text, you come across as an extremist intolerant Christian zealot who's been reading a bit too much faithfreedom-dumps, and believes in that silly idea of a clash of cultures.

For one thing to claim that conquering the world is a central tenet of islam is provably untrue. The five central tenets of islam are affirming the existance of allah, daily prayers, giving alms to the poor, fasting during the ramadan, and going on pilgrimmage to Mecca at least once.

Sure, there's the usual warmongering in the quran, just like with any other religion, but can you claim that always motivates every follower of said religion? Obviously not. Hitler was a good Christian who thought he did god's work. He went on and on about how Jesus was his big inspiration and he was 'doing the work of the Lord'. So if we follow your argument it would mean all Christians are like Hitler. Maybe that's not a good comparison as you seemed to deny the Holocaust in another topic, but I think everybody else will agree with me that your logic of "One Muslim did wrong = all Muslims always wrong" doesn't fly.

Neither do I think you're in any position to be passing judgement on Muslims as a whole. Chances are you're in some rich comfortable suburb in the US or some other place where you're unlikely to ever even have met a Muslim, let alone interact with enough of them often enough to have anything to say about it. Your post certainly gives no hint as to how you have any sort of expertise on the matter. And that's coming from a guy who's been accused of being a racist a few times because he has a lot of criticism on islamic immigrants and their integration into society.

Blablahb:

Therumancer:
You have to understand that one of the tenets of Islam is to conquer the rest of the world and to convert everyone else to Islam as well.

As I've pointed out for years, we're not dealing with a whack job fringe of people but an entire culture that is the root of this problem. The actual terrorists might be few, but the people involved in the culture who continue to spread and propagate these ideas produce an endless supply of terrorists and radicals.

People tend to forget things like the huge Shiite parades when Saddam fell, with the people lining up to publically display rituals that were once banned like chain whipping themselves. Not to mention that Bin Ladin agreed to surrender to face judgement but only under the laws of other Muslim nations where religion could be used as a defense for his actions, knowing he would be found innocent (and of course that we'd never go for it).

The rather weak western response to things like the 9/11 attacks, and acts of placation like employers providing Muslim prayer rooms,

From that swathe of text, you come across as an extremist intolerant Christian zealot who's been reading a bit too much faithfreedom-dumps, and believes in that silly idea of a clash of cultures.

For one thing to claim that conquering the world is a central tenet of islam is provably untrue. The five central tenets of islam are affirming the existance of allah, daily prayers, giving alms to the poor, fasting during the ramadan, and going on pilgrimmage to Mecca at least once.

Sure, there's the usual warmongering in the quran, just like with any other religion, but can you claim that always motivates every follower of said religion? Obviously not. Hitler was a good Christian who thought he did god's work. He went on and on about how Jesus was his big inspiration and he was 'doing the work of the Lord'. So if we follow your argument it would mean all Christians are like Hitler. Maybe that's not a good comparison as you seemed to deny the Holocaust in another topic, but I think everybody else will agree with me that your logic of "One Muslim did wrong = all Muslims always wrong" doesn't fly.

Neither do I think you're in any position to be passing judgement on Muslims as a whole. Chances are you're in some rich comfortable suburb in the US or some other place where you're unlikely to ever even have met a Muslim, let alone interact with enough of them often enough to have anything to say about it. Your post certainly gives no hint as to how you have any sort of expertise on the matter. And that's coming from a guy who's been accused of being a racist a few times because he has a lot of criticism on islamic immigrants and their integration into society.

Do you even bother to listen to yourself? Let's start with some trolling, then let's spew out some entirely misguided left wing rhetoric and call it a victory. Yay!

Let's be blunt here, I know more about Muslims, Terrorism, and humanity in general than just about anyone on these forums. At least anyone who has revealed how they have a base of knowlege. Am I one of the world's foremost experts? No, but I have been trained, and I was paid to basically spy on people for a long time working as casino security. I've been trained by Homeland security, and yes I've dealt with Muslims on a lot of differant levels. You on the other hand seem to have mostly learned what you know from left wing propaganda, and probably tend to support the point of view you do for one simple reason you don't even want to admit to yourself: it's easy. Right now tolerance and just letting things happen is the easiest way to live, there is the least pressure, and the least immediate danger. Any long term problems are something you can put off for future generations to deal with. A point of view I entirely disagree with.

Now, where you ARE correct is that nearly all religions include a lot of warmongering and aggression in them about killing and converting non-believers and taking over the world. The differance between Islam and other religions right now is that Muslim nations are acting as a theocracy, with the religion as opposed to rationality acting as the basis for the entire society, it's laws, policies, and objectives. Aggressively promoting Islam, gaining revenge over ancient religious slights, taking over the world as a matter of destiny, and similar things are among the basic tenents of Islamic society because this is part of what holds them together and gives them the energy to keep going despite the general state of their society, which comes at the expense of the world.

The thing is that stopping them represents a moral quandry coming from a civilization that has principles which were establishing by people not thinking of conflicts with xenocidal theocracies. It also means increasing discomfort for your average citizen, who is not only put under increasing threat during the conflict, but expected to give up things to support a REAL war effort, and potentially see themselves and their loved ones sent to fight and probably die whether they want to or not. Wars, especially long was, are never popular, and after 10+ years people are increasingly saying anything they can to argue why the war should end instead of escalating, whether it's right or wrong, or causes
problems in the long term. Sure, what your espousing is popular, and actually carried a President, but that doesn't
make it correct, or the right way to handle things.

Therumancer:
Let's be blunt here, I know more about Muslims, Terrorism, and humanity in general than just about anyone on these forums.

Of course you do, of course you do.

Therumancer:
making allowances in dress codes for Muslim facial hair, turbans, etc...

Credibility >window

BiscuitTrouser:
The UK is nothing like as bad as they say it is. I live here. I walk through London. Through Reading. Through Bristol. Ive NEVER EVEN MET A MUSLIM in this country for fucks sake as far as im aware? There were none in my school that i was aware of and its a fairly open and mixed school, i knew more Sikhs. They are only 5% of our population, atheists WELL outnumber them. Is it you thats keen on reminding people not to presume to know about a country that you dont live in?

Tower Hamlets has a higher proportion of Muslims than other areas.

That said im just commenting that this problem is being blown WAY out of proportion in terms of its size, not that it ISNT a problem. Where this does happen its a problem and MUST be addressed. This is NOT ok. Lets ignore culture, allowing someone to create "Anarchy" zones similar to Somalia wouldnt be acceptable and neither is "Islam" zones with their own laws. Being part of our society is a two way deal. And those videos disgusted me. We need to destroy these zones where ever there is hard evidence that they exist. Have undercover cops wander around with empty beer cans and wait. Lure them out and get rid of them. Just dont turn this into some kind of "Culture war" when its really an "Asshole war".

That said, this is bang on.

Hating the UK because of a fraction of the populace are wankers strikes me as rather inconsistent.

It's the UK. Most people here are wankers in some way ;)

I suspect this Muslim patrol is a very small group, are likely thought of as wankers by their neighbours, and they were arrested. But I just bet this will be used to satisfy those with a raging boner for the thought of "creeping jihad".

Therumancer:

Blablahb:

Therumancer:
You have to understand that one of the tenets of Islam is to conquer the rest of the world and to convert everyone else to Islam as well.

As I've pointed out for years, we're not dealing with a whack job fringe of people but an entire culture that is the root of this problem. The actual terrorists might be few, but the people involved in the culture who continue to spread and propagate these ideas produce an endless supply of terrorists and radicals.

People tend to forget things like the huge Shiite parades when Saddam fell, with the people lining up to publically display rituals that were once banned like chain whipping themselves. Not to mention that Bin Ladin agreed to surrender to face judgement but only under the laws of other Muslim nations where religion could be used as a defense for his actions, knowing he would be found innocent (and of course that we'd never go for it).

The rather weak western response to things like the 9/11 attacks, and acts of placation like employers providing Muslim prayer rooms,

From that swathe of text, you come across as an extremist intolerant Christian zealot who's been reading a bit too much faithfreedom-dumps, and believes in that silly idea of a clash of cultures.

For one thing to claim that conquering the world is a central tenet of islam is provably untrue. The five central tenets of islam are affirming the existance of allah, daily prayers, giving alms to the poor, fasting during the ramadan, and going on pilgrimmage to Mecca at least once.

Sure, there's the usual warmongering in the quran, just like with any other religion, but can you claim that always motivates every follower of said religion? Obviously not. Hitler was a good Christian who thought he did god's work. He went on and on about how Jesus was his big inspiration and he was 'doing the work of the Lord'. So if we follow your argument it would mean all Christians are like Hitler. Maybe that's not a good comparison as you seemed to deny the Holocaust in another topic, but I think everybody else will agree with me that your logic of "One Muslim did wrong = all Muslims always wrong" doesn't fly.

Neither do I think you're in any position to be passing judgement on Muslims as a whole. Chances are you're in some rich comfortable suburb in the US or some other place where you're unlikely to ever even have met a Muslim, let alone interact with enough of them often enough to have anything to say about it. Your post certainly gives no hint as to how you have any sort of expertise on the matter. And that's coming from a guy who's been accused of being a racist a few times because he has a lot of criticism on islamic immigrants and their integration into society.

Do you even bother to listen to yourself? Let's start with some trolling, then let's spew out some entirely misguided left wing rhetoric and call it a victory. Yay!

Let's be blunt here, I know more about Muslims, Terrorism, and humanity in general than just about anyone on these forums.

Sure, whatever.

Therumancer:

At least anyone who has revealed how they have a base of knowlege. Am I one of the world's foremost experts? No, but I have been trained, and I was paid to basically spy on people for a long time working as casino security.
I've been trained by Homeland security, and yes I've dealt with Muslims on a lot of differant levels.

I'm worked and talked with Muslims, and actually gotten to know them. Your point?

Therumancer:

You on the other hand seem to have mostly learned what you know from left wing propaganda, and probably tend to support the point of view you do for one simple reason you don't even want to admit to yourself: it's easy. Right now tolerance and just letting things happen is the easiest way to live, there is the least pressure, and the least immediate danger. Any long term problems are something you can put off for future generations to deal with. A point of view I entirely disagree with.

I live in the UK where our conservative government is ruining lives of many of its citizens and possibly screwed up the economy for decades to come. So you'll have to forgive me if I think your opinion on left/right-wing is full of crap.

Therumancer:

Now, where you ARE correct is that nearly all religions include a lot of warmongering and aggression in them about killing and converting non-believers and taking over the world. The differance between Islam and other religions right now is that Muslim nations are acting as a theocracy, with the religion as opposed to rationality acting as the basis for the entire society, it's laws, policies, and objectives.

I don't think you know what the word 'theocracy' means.

Therumancer:

Aggressively promoting Islam, gaining revenge over ancient religious slights, taking over the world as a matter of destiny, and similar things are among the basic tenents of Islamic society because this is part of what holds them together and gives them the energy to keep going despite the general state of their society, which comes at the expense of the world.

This is just laughable, the idea that a few individuals from the Middle East have done as much damage to world over a decade and a bit as that of Europe or America have done over 1000 years is just silly. Yes the damage and lives lost by terrorist attacks orchestrated by Muslims (or anyone) are massive tragedies and I really hope their families and the survivors the best, but to say it's anything close to what Europe and America are doing right now is just plain ignorant.

Therumancer:

The thing is that stopping them represents a moral quandry coming from a civilization that has principles which were establishing by people not thinking of conflicts with xenocidal theocracies. It also means increasing discomfort for your average citizen, who is not only put under increasing threat during the conflict, but expected to give up things to support a REAL war effort, and potentially see themselves and their loved ones sent to fight and probably die whether they want to or not. Wars, especially long was, are never popular, and after 10+ years people are increasingly saying anything they can to argue why the war should end instead of escalating, whether it's right or wrong, or causes
problems in the long term. Sure, what your espousing is popular, and actually carried a President, but that doesn't
make it correct, or the right way to handle things.

So this hypothetical war, why wage it? Because you don't like their religion and feel it makes them violent? Can I get some irony in here?

Therumancer, a spy? Oh my god. Just when I thought my day could not get any more bizarre.

On-topic: I am an atheist (ex-muslim) who seriously does have to pretend to be a "muslim" because they can be pretty annoying about muslims leaving islam. These muslims patrols morons are idiots and surely do not represent the entirety of muslims, but the sad thing is, muslims can be pretty damn patronizing among themselves. It's not too uncommon to hear a fellow muslim tell lecture me for hours about how I should pray, or do islamic this, or islamic that. But most muslims, at least in my little island, do not care about what non-muslims do whether publicly or in their private life.

Only the muslims with the same mindset as our dear homeland security consultant Therumancer are the most annoying, and funny to deal with. We tend to call them extremists. :)

Also, it's pretty unislamic for muslims to go to Casinos. So, yeah, I think you might consider a change of jobs. Hear muslims go to mosques, look up for some mosque who needs a security guard of sorts.

El Danny:
[

This is just laughable, the idea that a few individuals from the Middle East have done as much damage to world over a decade and a bit as that of Europe or America have done over 1000 years is just silly. Yes the damage and lives lost by terrorist attacks orchestrated by Muslims (or anyone) are massive tragedies and I really hope their families and the survivors the best, but to say it's anything close to what Europe and America are doing right now is just plain ignorant.

So this hypothetical war, why wage it? Because you don't like their religion and feel it makes them violent? Can I get some irony in here?

Ahh okay, so your trolling, working up to some US bashing. That clarifies things.

(to the community in general)

For future referance to this trying to discuss things with me, keep it polite, on topic, and don't resort to trolling and trying to keep the arguement going for the sake of having an arguement. One of my New Years resolutions was to try and be a bit harder to goad into keeping weeks long cicrular threads going. After a point I'm just going to stop responding (I don't need the last word constantly) but as some might notice I'm making a point of showcasing the kind/tone of posts I'm not going to respond to anymore. Clever trolling is still trolling.

Therumancer:

El Danny:
[

This is just laughable, the idea that a few individuals from the Middle East have done as much damage to world over a decade and a bit as that of Europe or America have done over 1000 years is just silly. Yes the damage and lives lost by terrorist attacks orchestrated by Muslims (or anyone) are massive tragedies and I really hope their families and the survivors the best, but to say it's anything close to what Europe and America are doing right now is just plain ignorant.

So this hypothetical war, why wage it? Because you don't like their religion and feel it makes them violent? Can I get some irony in here?

Ahh okay, so your trolling, working up to some US bashing. That clarifies things.

(to the community in general)

For future referance to this trying to discuss things with me, keep it polite, on topic, and don't resort to trolling and trying to keep the arguement going for the sake of having an arguement. One of my New Years resolutions was to try and be a bit harder to goad into keeping weeks long cicrular threads going. After a point I'm just going to stop responding (I don't need the last word constantly) but as some might notice I'm making a point of showcasing the kind/tone of posts I'm not going to respond to anymore. Clever trolling is still trolling.

How in any way am I trolling? I raise some good points and decent rebuttal so I must be trolling? You said before people are left-wing because it's easy, yet here you are closing your mind to my argument because it's clearly the easier thing for you to do.

rhizhim:

my question is:
if they want to live in a state with sharia law, why did they even move to a country without it? whats the point?
has integration and respect (to the state you currently live in) become something inconceivable in general?
and cant the state do anything (more effective) against them harassing people that dont want to share their lifestyles?

They want to expand Islam. They want everybody in the world to be Muslims.

To them, the spread of Islam > respect to the state.

It would appear that many western countries in Europe are... how can I put this... Pussies. They let people into their countries too easily and are afraid of offending anybody, and are only slowly learning of the problems of Islamic immigrants. Not all of them, but a relatively large portion of them who want to destroy the culture of the nation that has accepted them.

Luna:
It would appear that many western countries in Europe are... how can I put this... Pussies. They let people into their countries too easily and are afraid of offending anybody, and are only slowly learning of the problems of Islamic immigrants. Not all of them, but a relatively large portion of them who want to destroy the culture of the nation that has accepted them.

Sounds like a bunch of racist nonsense when put like that, so would you care to prove that the majority of Muslims in Europe is out to 'destroy culture', so that you can show it's not prejudice?

Blablahb:

Luna:
It would appear that many western countries in Europe are... how can I put this... Pussies. They let people into their countries too easily and are afraid of offending anybody, and are only slowly learning of the problems of Islamic immigrants. Not all of them, but a relatively large portion of them who want to destroy the culture of the nation that has accepted them.

Sounds like a bunch of racist nonsense when put like that, so would you care to prove that the majority of Muslims in Europe is out to 'destroy culture', so that you can show it's not prejudice?

Listen mate, I don't know you so I don't want to make an elaborate judgement of your character, but if I had to guess, it sounds like you're part of the problem.

People point to the problems in Europe caused by radical muslims that refuse to assimilate, and people like you try to silence them by preying on white guilt by calling them racists. Muslims can be black, white, hispanic, etc, so your claims of 'racism' are unfounded.

I never claimed the majority of Muslims in Europe are out to destroy its culture so I wouldn't care to prove anything that I never said.

Luna:
I never claimed the majority of Muslims in Europe are out to destroy its culture so I wouldn't care to prove anything that I never said.

Oh yes you did:

Luna:
Not all of them, but a relatively large portion of them who want to destroy the culture of the nation that has accepted them.

Luna:
Listen mate, I don't know you so I don't want to make an elaborate judgement of your character, but if I had to guess, it sounds like you're part of the problem.
People point to the problems in Europe caused by radical muslims that refuse to assimilate, and people like you try to silence them by preying on white guilt by calling them racists. Muslims can be black, white, hispanic, etc, so your claims of 'racism' are unfounded.

There's a huge difference between naming integration problems, and the generalising 'they want to destroy our culture' stuff that you wrote.

Even if the first generation doesn't speak the language and raises children good for little other than crime or forced arranged marriage depending on gender, that still doesn't mean there's some sort of conspiracy going on.

Most of the radical islamic extremists who hate the west are in fact second generation immigrants who've begun to hate the west because they fell in between the culture of the country of their parents, and the country in which they were born. Both cultures view them as outsiders, so they flee to radical Islam to get an identity.

Much like the kid who gets beat up ten times by immigrants when going out, and then decides to become a neonazi, they're a symptom of a problem, rather than a problem by themselves. And in my experience they're so blind and utterly dogmatic they'll never convince anyone. What on earth are you supposed to do with a kid who insists shariah law is just, and when you ask him if he's ever seen someone get flayed or mutilated, he has to answer with no? Well, that was a little skirmish between me and a rather dim-witted kid of Turkish descent at the faculty in 2007. Two or three arguments and I had the entire room, and it had little to do with any debating skill on my part.

Why worry about such weird figures? Let alone start comparing them to all immigrants of a certain faith?

Blablahb:

Luna:
I never claimed the majority of Muslims in Europe are out to destroy its culture so I wouldn't care to prove anything that I never said.

Oh yes you did:

Luna:
Not all of them, but a relatively large portion of them who want to destroy the culture of the nation that has accepted them.

Luna:
Listen mate, I don't know you so I don't want to make an elaborate judgement of your character, but if I had to guess, it sounds like you're part of the problem.
People point to the problems in Europe caused by radical muslims that refuse to assimilate, and people like you try to silence them by preying on white guilt by calling them racists. Muslims can be black, white, hispanic, etc, so your claims of 'racism' are unfounded.

There's a huge difference between naming integration problems, and the generalising 'they want to destroy our culture' stuff that you wrote.[/QUOTE]

It feels like you're being slow on purpose to annoy me. 'Majority' is not the same as 'large portion'

Also, 'they' implies I'm talking about all Muslims, or at least most of them, which I'm not because ^

I think that you already know this but won't admit it.

Even if the first generation doesn't speak the language and raises children good for little other than crime or forced arranged marriage depending on gender, that still doesn't mean there's some sort of conspiracy going on.

I never said there was a 'conspiracy' going on.

Your 'He said something I conceive as culturally insensitive, so I'll try to make him look like a crazy conspiracy theorist' strategy isn't going to work.

Most of the radical islamic extremists who hate the west are in fact second generation immigrants who've begun to hate the west because they fell in between the culture of the country of their parents, and the country in which they were born. Both cultures view them as outsiders, so they flee to radical Islam to get an identity.

Most? How do you know this? Regardless, I think a better idea to gain a sense of identity might be, perhaps, playing football, rather than following the more disgusting elements of an ancient book. I'm pretty sure that if people adopt radical Islam, and it's not due to brainwashing ie by their parents, then they have inherent mental issues which Islam has given them a direction to blast their instability.

Much like the kid who gets beat up ten times by immigrants when going out, and then decides to become a neonazi, they're a symptom of a problem, rather than a problem by themselves. And in my experience they're so blind and utterly dogmatic they'll never convince anyone. What on earth are you supposed to do with a kid who insists shariah law is just, and when you ask him if he's ever seen someone get flayed or mutilated, he has to answer with no? Well, that was a little skirmish between me and a rather dim-witted kid of Turkish descent at the faculty in 2007. Two or three arguments and I had the entire room, and it had little to do with any debating skill on my part.

Ok then.

Why worry about such weird figures? Let alone start comparing them to all immigrants of a certain faith?

Because there is a correlation.

Luna:
It feels like you're being slow on purpose to annoy me. 'Majority' is not the same as 'large portion'
Also, 'they' implies I'm talking about all Muslims, or at least most of them, which I'm not because ^
I think that you already know this but won't admit it.

Don't hide behind semantics. You were generalising about Muslims. If you realise you were wrong by claiming many Muslims want to destroy western civilisation and impose radical islam you're free to admit that, and it would be a good thing, but don't accuse me of being wrong just because I analyse what you really said correctly.

Luna:
I never said there was a 'conspiracy' going on.

So how then are we supposed to call a collective plan among 'muslims' as a whole, to destroy western civilisation, like you claimed?

Luna:
Most? How do you know this?

Because sociologists have been fascinated with the subject. An example is found in The role of Muslim identity politics in radicalisation. Most of the things I've read on the subject are in Dutch though.

People fall between two cultures, so they start to radically embrace one. The same is observed for instance with converts to a religion. Converts tends to be more extremist in their religious ideas to 'better belong' in their new religious group. The kid I wiped under the carpet for instance, I'd dealt with on occasions before because he attended the same study as I did. A bit of an acquitance really, but as he radicalised I just couldn't deal with him anymore. Which is how I know his parents were both upper class Turks with strict adherence to principles of secularism like was in fashion in Turkey at the time.

Such radicalisation occurs a lot of the time as an identity thing, sometimes in response to a perception of being discriminated against. 'the white people' treat you unfairly? So leap in with 'the muslims' fanatically and you have an identity. It also happens the other way around. Some of the fiercest islam bashers are former Muslims. Like for instance Ayaan Hirsi Ali, whom I used to respect a lot for her criticism of integration, but went way overboard over time and now hangs out with conservative Christians zealots in the United States.

In any case the phenomenon shouldn't be overestimated or equated to entire groups.

Blablahb:

Luna:
It feels like you're being slow on purpose to annoy me. 'Majority' is not the same as 'large portion'
Also, 'they' implies I'm talking about all Muslims, or at least most of them, which I'm not because ^
I think that you already know this but won't admit it.

Don't hide behind semantics. You were generalising about Muslims. If you realise you were wrong by claiming many Muslims want to destroy western civilisation and impose radical islam you're free to admit that, and it would be a good thing, but don't accuse me of being wrong just because I analyse what you really said correctly.

[/quote]

I'm not hiding behind semantics. I just successfully defended myself against your foolish claims that I'm talking about most muslims because I used the word 'large portion', and so you try to down play it by claiming that the definitions of words aren't important.

Many Muslims DO want to destroy, (through the changing of) western civilisation and imposing radical Islam. If you can't accept that, then there's something wrong with you.

Luna:
I never said there was a 'conspiracy' going on.

So how then are we supposed to call a collective plan among 'muslims' as a whole, to destroy western civilisation, like you claimed?

Luna:
Most? How do you know this?

Because sociologists have been fascinated with the subject. An example is found in The role of Muslim identity politics in radicalisation. Most of the things I've read on the subject are in Dutch though.

Once again you realize that your argument fails, and so you make things up to alter what I said. This time, you use the words 'as a whole', as if I claimed that Muslims as a whole want to destroy western civilisation. I said no such thing.

I'll check out the link. I hope its in English so I can read it.

People fall between two cultures, so they start to radically embrace one. The same is observed for instance with converts to a religion. Converts tends to be more extremist in their religious ideas to 'better belong' in their new religious group. The kid I wiped under the carpet for instance, I'd dealt with on occasions before because he attended the same study as I did. A bit of an acquitance really, but as he radicalised I just couldn't deal with him anymore. Which is how I know his parents were both upper class Turks with strict adherence to principles of secularism like was in fashion in Turkey at the time.

I wouldn't say that 1 example is a good representative on the whole issue. Perhaps the study I'm soon to click will look at things more generally.

Such radicalisation occurs a lot of the time as an identity thing, sometimes in response to a perception of being discriminated against. 'the white people' treat you unfairly? So leap in with 'the muslims' fanatically and you have an identity. It also happens the other way around. Some of the fiercest islam bashers are former Muslims. Like for instance Ayaan Hirsi Ali, whom I used to respect a lot for her criticism of integration, but went way overboard over time and now hangs out with conservative Christians zealots in the United States.

In any case the phenomenon shouldn't be overestimated or equated to entire groups.

I agree. But I don't think anything I said shows that I over estimate the problem, or equate the problem to ALL Muslims.

J Tyran:

Therumancer:
making allowances in dress codes for Muslim facial hair, turbans, etc...

Credibility >window

Got to watch those sneaky Muslims dressing up as Sikhs, you know...

Blablahb:
People fall between two cultures, so they start to radically embrace one. The same is observed for instance with converts to a religion. Converts tends to be more extremist in their religious ideas to 'better belong' in their new religious group.

It's using strength of conviction as a substitute for knowledge and experience, which is a behaviour anyone who's spent more than 5 minutes with a teenager will recognise and is typical, some would even say essential, to a person seeking to establish their identity.

The simplistic absolutism of this new identity is a form of protection, to keep the identity safe from judgement and doubt toward the person from the very group they would identify with and, let's be honest here, from their own self doubt and judgement. This is what leads 2nd generation migrant kids to act like cariactures of the people of their parents' home cultures, why new religious converts are so zealous and why teenagers are such self righteous pains in the arse.

how can being against islam make you racist? Islam isnt a race. but the fact you are associating people who 'look the same' into one group make YOU the racist sir.

RhombusHatesYou:

J Tyran:

Therumancer:
making allowances in dress codes for Muslim facial hair, turbans, etc...

Credibility >window

Got to watch those sneaky Muslims dressing up as Sikhs, you know...

Gotta laugh really, someone claiming to be a total authority on Islam and more knowledgeable than anyone else on these forums. Then they go on with a classic slippery slope fallacy about how making allowances so Muslims can wear their Turbans is a step on the road to ruin..

Posting at its finest, not.

J Tyran:

RhombusHatesYou:

J Tyran:

Credibility >window

Got to watch those sneaky Muslims dressing up as Sikhs, you know...

Gotta laugh really, someone claiming to be a total authority on Islam and more knowledgeable than anyone else on these forums. Then they go on with a classic slippery slope fallacy about how making allowances so Muslims can wear their Turbans is a step on the road to ruin..

I am fascinated by the concept of Muslim facial hair and just how that differs from regular facial hair. It probably requires a special conditioner or something (where does the Koran stand on split ends?).

RhombusHatesYou:

J Tyran:

RhombusHatesYou:

Got to watch those sneaky Muslims dressing up as Sikhs, you know...

Gotta laugh really, someone claiming to be a total authority on Islam and more knowledgeable than anyone else on these forums. Then they go on with a classic slippery slope fallacy about how making allowances so Muslims can wear their Turbans is a step on the road to ruin..

I am fascinated by the concept of Muslim facial hair and just how that differs from regular facial hair. It probably requires a special conditioner or something (where does the Koran stand on split ends?).

Well thats a classic sign of the intolerant and ignorant, instead of just saying "its a man with a beard" they have to make it sound alien and scary, then it becomes "Islamic facial hair" sometimes the more intelligent bigots will use the Arabic word to try and make it stand out even more.

If they want to live in a state with sharia law, why did they even move to a country without it? whats the point?

Wealth.

That's what I was going to say, but since Kuwait, Qatar, and the UAE arguably have better economies than the UK, I don't know. My gut tells me that they're the children of immigrants torn between their British citizenship, their parents' heritage, and the manipulative bastards that convince them that this is the best way to be a good Muslim

RhombusHatesYou:

J Tyran:

RhombusHatesYou:

Got to watch those sneaky Muslims dressing up as Sikhs, you know...

Gotta laugh really, someone claiming to be a total authority on Islam and more knowledgeable than anyone else on these forums. Then they go on with a classic slippery slope fallacy about how making allowances so Muslims can wear their Turbans is a step on the road to ruin..

I am fascinated by the concept of Muslim facial hair and just how that differs from regular facial hair. It probably requires a special conditioner or something (where does the Koran stand on split ends?).

Probably a shampoo that's not haraam. I am sure there is a good reason. After all, it's coming from our local expert.

Luna:
Many Muslims DO want to destroy, (through the changing of) western civilisation and imposing radical Islam. If you can't accept that, then there's something wrong with you.

So what is "many Muslims" and how do you know what they want?

Could it not instead be that in areas where a bigger population of a certain culture is bundled together you get a more prevalent presence of this culture, which also draws more members of which some might be more traditional than others?

I myself live in a Judaistic area, I have two temples within 5 minutes walking distance, a kosher butcher right at the corner and on the streets I constantly see Hasidic Jews. And I don't mean the kippah kind, I mean full-beard and twisted payot sporting, shtreimel, tzitzit and bekishe wearing ones; even the kids (sans beards obviously).
Are they destroying western culture too because they are conservatives with adherance to Halakha (Jewish Law) and a tight community?

Quaxar:

RhombusHatesYou:

J Tyran:

Gotta laugh really, someone claiming to be a total authority on Islam and more knowledgeable than anyone else on these forums. Then they go on with a classic slippery slope fallacy about how making allowances so Muslims can wear their Turbans is a step on the road to ruin..

I am fascinated by the concept of Muslim facial hair and just how that differs from regular facial hair. It probably requires a special conditioner or something (where does the Koran stand on split ends?).

Probably a shampoo that's not haraam. I am sure there is a good reason. After all, it's coming from our local expert.

Luna:
Many Muslims DO want to destroy, (through the changing of) western civilisation and imposing radical Islam. If you can't accept that, then there's something wrong with you.

So what is "many Muslims" and how do you know what they want?

Could it not instead be that in areas where a bigger population of a certain culture is bundled together you get a more prevalent presence of this culture, which also draws more members of which some might be more traditional than others?

I myself live in a Judaistic area, I have two temples within 5 minutes walking distance, a kosher butcher right at the corner and on the streets I constantly see Hasidic Jews. And I don't mean the kippah kind, I mean full-beard and twisted payot sporting, shtreimel, tzitzit and bekishe wearing ones; even the kids (sans beards obviously).
Are they destroying western culture too because they are conservatives with adherance to Halakha (Jewish Law) and a tight community?

All depends.

Are they screaming for outsiders to be held to Jewish law?

Are they harassing women on the streets for not being dressed by their code?

Are they calling for all non kosher foods to be banned by the law?

GunsmithKitten:

Quaxar:

RhombusHatesYou:

I am fascinated by the concept of Muslim facial hair and just how that differs from regular facial hair. It probably requires a special conditioner or something (where does the Koran stand on split ends?).

Probably a shampoo that's not haraam. I am sure there is a good reason. After all, it's coming from our local expert.

Luna:
Many Muslims DO want to destroy, (through the changing of) western civilisation and imposing radical Islam. If you can't accept that, then there's something wrong with you.

So what is "many Muslims" and how do you know what they want?

Could it not instead be that in areas where a bigger population of a certain culture is bundled together you get a more prevalent presence of this culture, which also draws more members of which some might be more traditional than others?

I myself live in a Judaistic area, I have two temples within 5 minutes walking distance, a kosher butcher right at the corner and on the streets I constantly see Hasidic Jews. And I don't mean the kippah kind, I mean full-beard and twisted payot sporting, shtreimel, tzitzit and bekishe wearing ones; even the kids (sans beards obviously).
Are they destroying western culture too because they are conservatives with adherance to Halakha (Jewish Law) and a tight community?

All depends.

Are they screaming for outsiders to be held to Jewish law?

Are they harassing women on the streets for not being dressed by their code?

Are they calling for all non kosher foods to be banned by the law?

If a portion of the Jewish community where behaving like that its natural to be upset, confused, frightened or angry about it. Heres the deal though, you confront and condemn the group of individuals that where acting like that. Unless the entire community where involved attacking the entire Jewish community and religion because of the actions of individuals is wrong.

In this case the actions of this "Muslim patrol" has outraged and offended the Muslims that do not share their opinions. In some cases Imams and Ulama have gone as far as condemning this as "blasphemy". Even some of the more militant and fundamentalist Muslims are angered over this because how can they spread the words of their God when the idiotic behavior of these people has hardened hearts and minds.

If people attacked you in some way because you shared ethnicity, faith or social connections with other people, how would it feel to be mocked, insulted or see scaremongering bigotry spreading around simply because someone who shared those traits with you did something outrageous or offensive and now you have become a target for the hatred. I would imagine being in that situation would hurt and be an awful place to be. Imagine if this "video game violence" thing got worse, I imagine you are a gamer so it would be terrible if people that didn't play games assume you are violent psychopath training in your murder simulators waiting for the day you get set off and go on a rampage and treat you differently and make accusations. It would suck major balls to be subject to that. Think how the Muslims must feel because they are being labeled as conquerors and crusaders or accused of being terrorists simply because they are Muslims and now because of the actions of others they have to suffer. There are huge amounts of articles and videos and pseudo documentaries making these accusations and spreading this hatred.

Thats just not right, at all and there can be no justification for it. If fundamentalist religious groups are causing problems they should be the ones brought into the spotlight and campaigned against, when appropriate they should be subject to the criminal justice system if their actions break the law. Otherwise if they are calling for changes in the law they are entitled to do that, you are entitled to ignore it or if it offends you enough join a counter campaign that helps educate people about the issue. Scaremongering is counter productive, it also causes hatred and fear and for some people adds justification for bigotry.

Also if you believe in democracy you should recognize the rights of campaign, protest or lobbying that the people wanting changes in the law have. If their actions cross the line and become hate mongering or intimidation and its own form of intolerance then its the Government and criminal justice systems job to deal with the individuals causing the problems.

GunsmithKitten:

Quaxar:

RhombusHatesYou:

I am fascinated by the concept of Muslim facial hair and just how that differs from regular facial hair. It probably requires a special conditioner or something (where does the Koran stand on split ends?).

Probably a shampoo that's not haraam. I am sure there is a good reason. After all, it's coming from our local expert.

Luna:
Many Muslims DO want to destroy, (through the changing of) western civilisation and imposing radical Islam. If you can't accept that, then there's something wrong with you.

So what is "many Muslims" and how do you know what they want?

Could it not instead be that in areas where a bigger population of a certain culture is bundled together you get a more prevalent presence of this culture, which also draws more members of which some might be more traditional than others?

I myself live in a Judaistic area, I have two temples within 5 minutes walking distance, a kosher butcher right at the corner and on the streets I constantly see Hasidic Jews. And I don't mean the kippah kind, I mean full-beard and twisted payot sporting, shtreimel, tzitzit and bekishe wearing ones; even the kids (sans beards obviously).
Are they destroying western culture too because they are conservatives with adherance to Halakha (Jewish Law) and a tight community?

All depends.

Are they screaming for outsiders to be held to Jewish law?

Are they harassing women on the streets for not being dressed by their code?

Are they calling for all non kosher foods to be banned by the law?

I imagine some of them could have these opinions. It doesn't matter though because the action of a small group that might be prominent in news outlets for obvious reasons doesn't automatically include the rest of the group.

The fact that some Muslims want the whole world under Sharia law doesn't make Islam any more evil than a high arrest rate for Hispanic population in the southern US makes Mexicans criminals.

Quaxar:

Luna:
Many Muslims DO want to destroy, (through the changing of) western civilisation and imposing radical Islam. If you can't accept that, then there's something wrong with you.

So what is "many Muslims" and how do you know what they want?

Huh? The extremists have made it clear what they want.

What is 'many Muslims'? Well it depends on your definition of what warrants the destruction of existing western culture. If you were to take a broader approach to include things like those Muslims who want to have a tight and closed off community rather than to interact and be a part of the rest of the nation, then MAYBE...30% of Muslims in the UK might fall under that category. But I'm totally pulling that one out of my ass, it might be more or less.

If you're talking about the Muslims that want to change UK law so that the woman is placed with the greater portion of blame for rape than her rapist if she's not fully covered, and wanting what was done in the video to be imposed as law, then... Possibly 10%.

If you're talking about the ones that blow themselves up, then its gonna be <1%.

Could it not instead be that in areas where a bigger population of a certain culture is bundled together you get a more prevalent presence of this culture, which also draws more members of which some might be more traditional than others?

I myself live in a Judaistic area, I have two temples within 5 minutes walking distance, a kosher butcher right at the corner and on the streets I constantly see Hasidic Jews. And I don't mean the kippah kind, I mean full-beard and twisted payot sporting, shtreimel, tzitzit and bekishe wearing ones; even the kids (sans beards obviously).
Are they destroying western culture too because they are conservatives with adherance to Halakha (Jewish Law) and a tight community?

To a lesser extent, just perhaps. I don't know of any beliefs held by a large group of Jews which they wish to impose on others that I would find to be morally despicable as I do with Islam, but I feel that a high degree of segregation of certain groups can go down a negative road. Though if they don't try to impose their will on others there is much less of a problem.

This is why Multiculturalism doesn't work. It causes divide. They come to OUR nations and they expect US to assimilate into THEIR cultures. WHY SHOULD I HAVE TO LIVE BY SHARIA LAW? These people disgust me.

Quaxar:

RhombusHatesYou:

J Tyran:

Gotta laugh really, someone claiming to be a total authority on Islam and more knowledgeable than anyone else on these forums. Then they go on with a classic slippery slope fallacy about how making allowances so Muslims can wear their Turbans is a step on the road to ruin..

I am fascinated by the concept of Muslim facial hair and just how that differs from regular facial hair. It probably requires a special conditioner or something (where does the Koran stand on split ends?).

Probably a shampoo that's not haraam. I am sure there is a good reason. After all, it's coming from our local expert.

wait, how can shampoo be "sinfull"/haraam?

and what about ingredients that are fairly new to this world? does it get updated?

i'm just asking due curiousity....

rhizhim:
wait, how can shampoo be "sinfull"/haraam?
and what about ingredients that are fairly new to this world? does it get updated?
i'm just asking due curiousity....

Parts of pigs are used in it. To my knowledge there's only a rule about eating pork though, and not so much about the use of the animals for anything else. I doubt anyone other than rather extreme people are going to not wash their hair over something like that.

I'm going to preface this with a disclaimer that I would never usually encourage people to read The Telegraph due to its' unfortunate (and well deserved) nickname "The Torygraph", but it was where this piece appeared and I haven't seen it republished elsewhere so I'll make an exception this time;

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/andrewgilligan/100200020/east-london-mosque-condemns-homophobia-yet-advertised-four-anti-gay-speakers-last-month-alone/

According to this writer, these stories about "Sharia Patrols" are just the latest in a series that have actually been going on for quite some time, but the victims reported that the London police attempted to downplay the severity of the issue amid fear of accusations of racism (there being no link between race and religion apparently escaping notice).

The East London Mosque is the largest in London, and issued a statement condemning the vigilante groups and the kind of bigotry they employ. The problem with this statement is that it is demonstrably a brazen, outright lie.

There is no evidence that the East London Mosque is directly involved in the latest attacks. But at least one activist in the Islamic Forum of Europe, the Islamic supremacist group that runs the mosque, has previously threatened and intimidated people for violating "Islamic norms," using the IFE's name.

And as this blog has repeatedly documented, the mosque itself and its annexe, the London Muslim Centre, host a constant stream of viciously homophobic and other hate preachers. In June 2011, after coming under particular pressure on the subject, the mosque promised: "Any speaker who is believed to have said something homophobic will not be allowed to use our premises."

Sounds clear enough to me. But as I documented at the time, this promise was broken within eight days. It has been broken countless times since. And it appears to have been broken at least four times last month alone.

After this quote, the writer goes into detail on those four violations of that promise, though not at any particular length. So you've got to wonder three things;

One, if someone posts a video to YouTube of them self committing a criminal act, do they not think for one second that the first thing the police will do is investigate who uploaded it in the first place?

Two, in an age where everything is documented in some way, either officially or by anyone who passes by with a phone in their hand which is only about EVERYONE, how does the East London Mosque think that nobody will notice when they repeatedly do the exact opposite of what they actually say?

And Three, are they genuinely not aware of the fact that people who are either 1) a deconverted ex-Muslim, 2) a more tolerantly minded progressive Muslim, or 3) not Muslim in the slightest but still able to read the Quran due to having eyes and language skills, have made it public knowledge that Muslim doctrine incorporates the concept of Taqiyya?

I'll admit to not having been aware of this concept until quite recently, despite having once had a short lived relationship with a Muslim (a woman who suffered more for her faith I have never known), so I wouldn't be surprised if it was something others hadn't heard of either, so here is a summary; http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Taqiyya

Put simply Taqiyya holds that it is permissable for a Muslim to lie to a non-believer under certain circumstances, such as concealing their faith when being persecuted. Unfortunately this is exploited by radicals who use it as a justification for the kind of bigotry being perpetrated by those posting the vigilante videos.

(It is also what right-wing nut-job conspiracy theorists in the US have accused President Obama of employing, despite him not being Muslim. Or an Illuminatus. Or a Baby-Eating Athiest*. Or a Communist. Or The Real Actual Super Devil. Or all of the above.)

*We don't actually do that you know. Normally I wouldn't have to explain that, but on these boards...

EDIT:

Blablahb:

rhizhim:
wait, how can shampoo be "sinfull"/haraam?
and what about ingredients that are fairly new to this world? does it get updated?
i'm just asking due curiousity....

Parts of pigs are used in it. To my knowledge there's only a rule about eating pork though, and not so much about the use of the animals for anything else. I doubt anyone other than rather extreme people are going to not wash their hair over something like that.

You'd be surprised exactly what a wide variety of products are manufactured from ingredients that originate in animal life. I realise this is completely tangential and not related to the thread that much, but I can never resist telling people about this. Know what goes into ice cream as a "natural flavouring"? BEAVERS' ANAL GLANDS.

Don't believe me? http://www.businessinsider.com/11-disgusting-ingredients-that-arent-advertised-in-food-2012-3?op=1#ixzz1qYZOG1QU

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