Pentagon opens up combat roles for women.

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Sonofadiddly:

Schadrach:

Sonofadiddly:

Feminists want equality, and understand that equality means the same standards for everyone. I don't know a single feminist (and I know a whole lot), who wants the physical fitness standards to be lowered. That's actually insulting to us. We do not want special treatment or special standards. We want to be treated equally, and when we say that we mean EQUALLY.

We had another thread on here a while back where the folks who usually argue from feminist perspectives were explicitly defending women having lesser PE standards in the US military than men.

Unfortunately, "hold everyone to the same standards and whoever wins/passes wins/passes, regardless of gender" is not what feminist arguments typically involve. There's a frequent tendency to use gaps in outcome as proof of gaps in opportunity.

Well, that's not been my experience and that's not what I want. I can't speak for everyone, but I would be curious to see if those people would actual identify as feminist and how much they actually know about feminist theory.

Here's the thread: http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/528.376257-So-what-if-gender-roles-are-biologically-driven-It-doesnt-instruct-people-and-disagreement?page=2

First post that attempts to defend women being held to lesser PE standards in the military is top of page 3, by evilthecat (whose argument is that physical standards are both genital-dependent due to hormonal differences and *really* a measurement of a mental trait).

the clockmaker:

Sonofadiddly:

Man, as far as I'm concerned, you being a stranger on the internet who has no proof of your so called real world experience, your word has as much impact on me as fiction.

that's a great policy, when somebody tells you that you are wrong, call them a liar. Because if I was telling the truth, I would agree with you, is that right?

I never claimed to be an expert,

"Don't stress yourself out over "concerns" that have no basis in reality." That right there sounds like you are trying to authoritative. Telling a stranger over the net that what they see has no basis in reality. Based, apparently on your DVD collection you are slamming your hand down on the table and saying 'thus I declare', so even if you ever called yourself and expert, you are certainly trying on the hat.

just someone who can see that a thing has never happened and no politicians or actual feminists pushing for this to happen.

Sigh, was I saying that they are pushing for that, no, apparently you did not understand what I said. They will complain when 'not enough' women make it through, which will then pressure the politicians into pressuring the military into fudging the numbers. Again, I see this shit happen on a regular basis.

You know, someone with eyes and ears.

So let me get this straight, I post my experiences, you call me a liar, and then in the same goddamn post you expect me to just bow the fuck down because you posted your experiences. Like fucking hell. Maybe if you hadn't just called me a liar, I might be inclined to give you the benefit of the doubt, but now, clearly you were thinking about lies when you posted, so who knows how honest you are being.

And see, this is where the problem is, people play call of duty and then think that they understand tactics, people play 'spec ops the line' and think that they understand 'the horrors of war' and then you watch GI fucking Jane and suddenly you know how to integrate women into the military.

Again, I am in favour of removing gender restrictions, I am concerned that the shit that I have seen will continue into arms corps.

Wow, I don't know how you're getting authoritative, which I guess you mean to be "having intimate personal knowledge of the subject," out of that. I'm saying that it's a thing that isn't happening, which you seem to agree with, and that it hasn't happened, and since you're insisting that you've seen it happen it's on you to provide some sort of proof. Cite your sources kind of thing?

And where did I say you should bow the fuck down? You started this discussion by insulting me and dismissing my observations and opinions on the matter based on the fact that you've apparently seen something happen, while you provide no proof of your assertions. Perhaps if you hadn't kicked this off by being hostile, I might have been more inclined to believe what you say, hmmmm?

Schadrach:

Sonofadiddly:

Schadrach:

We had another thread on here a while back where the folks who usually argue from feminist perspectives were explicitly defending women having lesser PE standards in the US military than men.

Unfortunately, "hold everyone to the same standards and whoever wins/passes wins/passes, regardless of gender" is not what feminist arguments typically involve. There's a frequent tendency to use gaps in outcome as proof of gaps in opportunity.

Well, that's not been my experience and that's not what I want. I can't speak for everyone, but I would be curious to see if those people would actual identify as feminist and how much they actually know about feminist theory.

Here's the thread: http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/528.376257-So-what-if-gender-roles-are-biologically-driven-It-doesnt-instruct-people-and-disagreement?page=2

First post that attempts to defend women being held to lesser PE standards in the military is top of page 3, by evilthecat (whose argument is that physical standards are both genital-dependent due to hormonal differences and *really* a measurement of a mental trait).

Thanks very much, I will peruse this heartily.

Sonofadiddly:

Wow, I don't know how you're getting authoritative, which I guess you mean to be "having intimate personal knowledge of the subject," out of that.

"have no basis in reality" you did not say that 'I don't think you are correct' or 'I disagree with you' you said "have no basis in reality". You only say that shit if you know the subject closely, or in your case, think that you do.

I'm saying that it's a thing that isn't happening, which you seem to agree with,

What part of I see this shit everyday do you not understand

and that it hasn't happened, and since you're insisting that you've seen it happen it's on you to provide some sort of proof. Cite your sources kind of thing?

First off, how the fuck do you expect me to provide proof of my everyday life? And secondly the fact that there is an official gap between the fitness standards for male and female soldiers should put it through your skull that it is happening
http://content.defencejobs.gov.au/pdf/army/DFA_Document_BasicFitnessAssesment.pdf
That is just the official level.

And where did I say you should bow the fuck down?

"No basis in reality" "with eyes and ears" implying that I should just shut the fuck up because your point is self evident. It's not.

You started this discussion by insulting me

Asking that we do not use actors pretending to be in the military, talking about a differing issue is not insulting you. I can insult you if it would make you feel better

and dismissing

posted a reply several times longer than your own post, hardly dismissive.

my observations

'I'll just leave this here' is not an observation,

and opinions

Which you seem to have based on the west wing and GI-fucking-Jane... wait, can we continue this later, 'two and a half men' is hosting a discussion on feminism

on the matter based on the fact that you've apparently seen something happen,

keep denying, I'm sure I will just cave in and admit that my life is a lie if you just keep denying

while you provide no proof

Because I can totally provide sources for my working day.

of your assertions.

Which fall into line with almost every member of every anglophone sphere military that I have ever known

Perhaps if you hadn't kicked this off by being hostile,

Was not hostile, simply pointed out that using actors pretending to be in the military to make point about the military, when their point is separate from your own may not be the wisest thing.

I might have been more inclined to believe what you say, hmmmm?

So we've gone from 'you disagree, therefore you are a liar' to 'your a liar, and a meany-pants too'. That's different I suppose.

Still, you provided no source for your information either. Because you are a person 'with eyes and ears' I am expected to give me the benefit of the doubt when you cannot be arsed to extend to me the same basic fucking courtesy. Well as a person with eyes and ears, I can tell you I am in far better a position to see the outcome of this situation than you.

On top of that,
I post a long and in detail reply as to what my concerns are, you say simply that it has 'no basis in reality' and you have the hide to call me dismissive
You call me a liar and have the nerve to call me insulting
You call my integrity into question because I disagree with you and have the guts to demand that I believe you simply because you 'have eyes and ears'.

You have conducted yourself pretty poorly thus far, and I hope that you are not representative of your cause.

As long as standards for service members are not dropped to allow more woman to join then I have no problem with it. There are some serious issues that will have to be addressed to prevent harassment and rape as apparently things are shitty in that regard right now.

the clockmaker:
Snip

You perception of what's going on is completely twisted, and you seem to be consistently missing or misinterpreting everything I say, soooo not much point in arguing anymore.

But I will say, .au? Is that shit from Australia? LOL.

Sonofadiddly:

the clockmaker:
Snip

But I will say, .au? Is that shit from Australia? LOL.

Considering the topic at hand was how the Australian Defense Force handles women in combat, what the fuck is so funny about using an Australian source? What are you going to suggest that people who want to talk about American Army Standards should use British sources?

Sonofadiddly:

the clockmaker:
Snip

You perception of what's going on is completely twisted, and you seem to be consistently missing or misinterpreting everything I say, soooo not much point in arguing anymore.

But I will say, .au? Is that shit from Australia? LOL.

Yep, complete the trifecta,
Call your opponent a liar because you don't agree with them,
demand proof without showing any
declare victory and walk away in a huff while trying to claim the high ground.

You are, once again, doing a disservice to your cause and I hope that few people are soured by your portrayal of it.

And I'm sorry, but I thought comparing a first world English speaking British descendent technologically advanced military from a predominately white well off nation who is currently integrating women into their defence force with a first world English speaking British descendent technologically advanced military from a predominately white well off nation who is currently integrating women into their defence force would be entirely valid. Or at least more valid than your source... Gi-Jane.

Face it, you are out of your wheelhouse here, and your refusal to admit such is unbecoming.

And lets face it, any chance of me being kind to you, or trying to behave in a more conciliatory manner, dissipated when you accused me of being a lair, either of being in the defence force, or of my experiences within.

I see no case where I have twisted your words, reading back over your posts I see you accusing me, behaving in a hypocritical manner, dismissing my points as having no basis in reality and, when you were pressed, you pointed to GI jane of all things as to why anyone should take you seriously on any matters concerning the military.

But keep on laughing mate, laugh your way out of the issue and let those of us who actually have to deal with it, deal with it.

the clockmaker:

Sonofadiddly:

the clockmaker:
Snip

You perception of what's going on is completely twisted, and you seem to be consistently missing or misinterpreting everything I say, soooo not much point in arguing anymore.

But I will say, .au? Is that shit from Australia? LOL.

Yep, complete the trifecta,
Call your opponent a liar because you don't agree with them,
demand proof without showing any
declare victory and walk away in a huff while trying to claim the high ground.

You are, once again, doing a disservice to your cause and I hope that few people are soured by your portrayal of it.

And I'm sorry, but I thought comparing a first world English speaking British descendent technologically advanced military from a predominately white well off nation who is currently integrating women into their defence force with a first world English speaking British descendent technologically advanced military from a predominately white well off nation who is currently integrating women into their defence force would be entirely valid. Or at least more valid than your source... Gi-Jane.

Face it, you are out of your wheelhouse here, and your refusal to admit such is unbecoming.

And lets face it, any chance of me being kind to you, or trying to behave in a more conciliatory manner, dissipated when you accused me of being a lair, either of being in the defence force, or of my experiences within.

I see no case where I have twisted your words, reading back over your posts I see you accusing me, behaving in a hypocritical manner, dismissing my points as having no basis in reality and, when you were pressed, you pointed to GI jane of all things as to why anyone should take you seriously on any matters concerning the military.

But keep on laughing mate, laugh your way out of the issue and let those of us who actually have to deal with it, deal with it.

No, it's not valid. We're talking about the US military. The US isn't going to follow suit with Australia. We're too busy declaring ourselves the greatest nation on Earth.

Look, buddy. You come in here claiming some thing is going to happen based on the fact that you say you're part of the military and you've seen in happening. Meanwhile, (with my own eyes and ears) I have seen no politicians putting forth bills to lower standards, suggesting such bills should be put forward, or even saying they would consider it. And no feminist leaders have expressed the desire for such thing, as far as I've seen, and plenty say that they are opposed to it.

So I'm just supposed to take your word for it? Do you change your stance on important issues based on what some dudes say on the internet? You offer no proof of your assertions that actually applies to the US that this thing is happening in the US. What am I supposed to do? "Oh some guy said it so it must be true." What the hell kind of idiot would I be if I conceded just because you say you saw a thing happen, without proof??? I'm sorry if needing evidence somehow makes me an asshole who is in your mind calling you a liar. But unfortunately, I'm the kind of person who requires evidence in a debate to take it seriously, especially if it deals with whether or not my gender is going to be allowed full participation in the military (not that they haven't been in combat already anyway, and lo and behold, the military still stands).

If you want my source on how the fitness standards are not being lowered, I present to you the entire congress and the entire internet and every news outlet that has NOT said the fitness standards will/should be lowered. And you waltz in here with your conjecture and hearsay and present it as evidence, and the best you can do is give me data from another country that, while being white and speaking English, is still a hell of a lot different in policy and values than the US. And then you accuse me of sucking for barely taking your arguments seriously? Dude, you don't even seem to know the definition of "dismissive" (hint: It doesn't mean not using a lot of words).

I'm sorry if you were so offended by my leaving a point that the West Wing writers made about introducing minorities into the military around. The point (if you missed it) was just that the military got over racial minorities in their ranks. I think we can say that it's true, whether or not it was presented in a fictional show, because there are still racial minorities in the military, and it seems to be doing just fine now, don't you agree?

But my main point is that if you're going to suck at a debate, the best way to do it is to offer no valid evidence to support your wild claims. Without evidence, I have no more reason to believe you than any of the conspiracy nuts that claim they saw bigfoot. If not just going to believe every random guy on the internet who says he saw a thing happen. THAT would make me stupid.

And get off the GI Jane thing. I was making fun of you when I said that, buddy. It's just getting embarrassing now.

Sonofadiddly:

No, it's not valid. We're talking about the US military. The US isn't going to follow suit with Australia.

Not a question of following suite, a question of taking similar actions at similar times

We're too busy declaring ourselves the greatest nation on Earth.

Because some people saying something negates all those similarities immediately. Right?
Can I ask how much contact you actually have with the military?

But hey, I am a soft hearted old fool. Note, AUs comparison still valid.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Army_Physical_Fitness_Test#Standards
Did you even look for standards before claiming to know about them? I mean, that is my major problem with you, that is the first fucking result when you search US army fitness standards, so you clearly could not be arsed to look for it before coming into the discussion.

Look, buddy. You come in here claiming some thing is going to happen based on the fact that you say you're part of the military and you've seen in happening.

Good, keep going after my integrity, that is totally going to make me concede

Meanwhile, (with my own eyes and ears)

again, I thought we weren't trusting eyes and ears

I have seen no politicians putting forth bills to lower standards, suggesting such bills should be put forward, or even saying they would consider it.

A-Fitness standards are not set by legislation, I am begining to suspect that you are talking out of your arse on this issue. and
B- I don't see it happening until people are shocked and disturbed at how few women pass the trade training. Lets put it this way, how how many women do you see in the average infantry section/squad 15 years from now

And no feminist leaders have expressed the desire for such thing, as far as I've seen, and plenty say that they are opposed to it.

I'm seeing a trend that you immediately dismiss anything that you haven't seen.

So I'm just supposed to take your word for it? Do you change your stance on important issues based on what some dudes say on the internet?

Alternate to simply attacking someone's integrity- Anecdotal evidence is not proof, you may be biased by your experiences

You offer no proof of your assertions that actually applies to the US that this thing is happening in the US. What am I supposed to do? "Oh some guy said it so it must be true."

you are not supposed to come out of the gate questioning my integrity, it does not set a good tone for the conversation.

What the hell kind of idiot would I be if I conceded just because you say you saw a thing happen, without proof???

again, other methods to go about it other than simply attacking my credibility

I'm sorry if needing evidence somehow makes me an asshole who is in your mind calling you a liar.

'as good as fiction'

But unfortunately, I'm the kind of person who requires evidence in a debate to take it seriously,

considering that all you did entering this debate was throw in a west wing clip, I very much doubt that. Or do you apply your rules only to others

especially if it deals with whether or not my gender is going to be allowed full participation in the military (not that they haven't been in combat already anyway, and lo and behold, the military still stands).

Okay, see this is another section where you show that you do not know what you are talking about re: the military, There is a difference between being ambushed in your logistics convoy and conducting a recon to contact. Both require massive amounts of bravery, true, but there is a larger difference in the physical aptitude required.

And for the last fucking time, I am not saying that women should not be allowed into arms corps, only that I am concerned that people with no understanding of the military are going to fuck up how it is handled.

If you want my source on how the fitness standards are not being lowered, I present to you the entire congress and the entire internet and every news outlet that has NOT said the fitness standards will/should be lowered.

In other fucking words, you have no source and couldn't be arsed to check if there was a difference in fitness standards already (hint, there fucking is)

And you waltz in here with your conjecture and hearsay and present it as evidence, and the best you can do is give me data from another country that, while being white and speaking English, is still a hell of a lot different in policy and values than the US.

Alright sweetheart, explain to me, in details relevant to this discussion, the differences between the US and AUS defence forces.

And then you accuse me of sucking

never accused you of sucking, only that your beligerant and hypocritical attitude do harm to your cause.

for barely taking your arguments seriously? Dude, you don't even seem to know the definition of "dismissive" (hint: It doesn't mean not using a lot of words).

I gave an in detail post as to why-
A- This situation is different from skin colour of homosexuality and
B- Why I am concerned that people who don't know jack about the military will fuck this over for the women who can actually do the job.

You just claimed that I had 'no basis in reality' So yes, I do know what it is to be dismissive, I have a shining example of it right here.

I'm sorry if you were so offended by my leaving a point that the West Wing writers made about introducing minorities into the military around. The point (if you missed it) was just that the military got over racial minorities in their ranks.

because, as I said the first time around, there is no physical capability difference between those minorities

I think we can say that it's true, whether or not it was presented in a fictional show, because there are still racial minorities in the military, and it seems to be doing just fine now, don't you agree?

I just get annoyed when they put words in other people's mouths.

But my main point is that if you're going to suck at a debate, the best way to do it is to offer no valid evidence to support your wild claims. Without evidence, I have no more reason to believe you than any of the conspiracy nuts that claim they saw bigfoot. If not just going to believe every random guy on the internet who says he saw a thing happen. THAT would make me stupid.

How in the name of fuck is this a wild claim? It falls perfectly within what the army has done before (hint, look at the fitness standards).

And as for 'sucking' at a debate, I am noticing that you like to accuse me of doing something, when I have not, and then use that as justification for doing it yourself.
Claim that I have not provided evidence -do the same
Whine about me insulting you -do the same
Complain that I expecting you to believe me because of what I see -expect the same
Claim that I said that you 'suck' - do the same

And get off the GI Jane thing. I was making fun of you when I said that, buddy. It's just getting embarrassing now.

Yep, the old I was joking and you don't understand card. Funny that you are just bringing that up know and not several posts ago. But hey, I will be charitable again, lets replace every instance of GI Jane with the west wing.

the clockmaker:
Snip

Alright, there you go! Now we have a debate. It took several posts before I could get you to offer up some evidence to back up your claims (which, as I said before, is on you because you're making the claims and it's a little ridiculous to expect someone to offer up evidence for a lack of a wanting of a thing).

I'm sure you won't believe me, and I'm sure your first reaction is to point out that I didn't believe you blah blah blah, but I've known for awhile about the differences in the US Army physical fitness standards, and was waiting for you to bring it up. Now we have a debate that's not just about blah blah you were mean no you were mean.

You see, this is how a debate works. You say "I think someone might try to lower the physical fitness standards." I say "I don't see any indication that that is something that will happen." Then instead of immediately getting all defensive and saying I'm calling you a liar and questioning your integrity, you present EVIDENCE. Dude, I always call out people who don't present evidence to support their claims. Because how will we get anywhere if we don't back up the things we say? I suppose I could be lying in saying that I haven't heard anything about anyone wanting to lower the standards (not talking about how they're already lowered, so don't go there), but if anyone was saying that, surely you would have heard about it and used that to counter me, right? But apparently you can't because you "see" the same things I do, don't you?

Now let's examine the very beginning of our interactions.

"Can we not have people using people who are not in the military and dress up as soldiers to put words in soldiers mouths as an authoritative source on what the military should or should not do."

Dismissive, snarky, hostile. I hate to pull the you started it card, but how the hell do you expect people to react to you when you start off a conversation that way?

But I see that by responding in kind and goading you all the way here, you've revealed your true colors with the "sweetheart" comment. I tell you, I can smell a misogynist from a mile away, and I can always out them with a little pushing. Admit it, you don't want women in the military at all, because you just don't like them, do you?

Yes, there are differences in the army fitness standards, and personally I don't think it's a good idea either. There, we agree, don't we? But I'm glad I could accomplish what I set out to do, which was to get you to engage in actual debate involving actual research, and at the same time get you to reveal your misogyny. All in all, a good time. Cheers!

Sonofadiddly:

Alright, there you go! Now we have a debate. It took several posts before I could get you to offer up some evidence to back up your claims (which, as I said before, is on you because you're making the claims and it's a little ridiculous to expect someone to offer up evidence for a lack of a wanting of a thing).

I offered up a link a few posts ago, and I have voiced concerns, not made claims.
Difference being
-I am concerned that this will happen
-This will happen

I'm sure you won't believe me, and I'm sure your first reaction is to point out that I didn't believe you blah blah blah, but I've known for awhile about the differences in the US Army physical fitness standards, and was waiting for you to bring it up.

You are right, I don't belive you. A lower fitness standard indicates a lowering of fitness standards. If you had known that there were lower standards, you would not have said that a lowering of standards had no basis in reality. So I call shenanigans on that. Either you were totally ignorant or you were ignoring a fact that did not fit in your view.

You see, this is how a debate works. You say "I think someone might try to lower the physical fitness standards." I say "I don't see any indication that that is something that will happen."

YOu did not say, 'I see no indication' you said, 'no basis in reality'. Please tell me that you can see the difference between those two

Then instead of immediately getting all defensive and saying I'm calling you a liar and questioning your integrity

You- Irrelevant link
-Me- Voicing concerns
you-no basis in reality
me- I have experienced it
you- 'Your words are as good as fiction'

At least be honest about your insults.

you present EVIDENCE.

Yep, I'm going to present evidence of shit that goes on behind closed doors. I'll get right the fuck on that.

Dude, I always call out people who don't present evidence to support their claims.

except for yourself

Because how will we get anywhere if we don't back up the things we say?

Hierarchy of proofs, I issue personal experience, you then negate that by issuing a proof higher than that. So far, I am hte only one who has provided any proof of any level.

I suppose I could be lying in saying that I haven't heard anything about anyone wanting to lower the standards (not talking about how they're already lowered, so don't go there),

Why the fuck not, a lowering of standards indicates a willingness to lower standards.

but if anyone was saying that, surely you would have heard about it and used that to counter me, right? But apparently you can't because you "see" the same things I do, don't you?

No you wilfully ignorant rapscallion, I see different things to you. You see things from outside of the military, I see things that go on inside the military, shit that does not go into press releases because it will be bad press. And I am annoyed that I have to explain this again, but it does not go
Interest groups-'lower standards'
ARMY (lowers standards)

It goes
reasonable people -'let women in'
Army (lets women in)
Interest groups-'why aren't more women passing, is it because of sexism?'
Reasonable people-'gasp?! Sexism, fix it government'
Government- Don't be sexist army, stop holding women back, be more engaging and less gender specific'
Army-(looks confused)
army-Issues back door directives that more women are to pass
Instructors -lower standards.

Dismissive,

If I was going to be dismissive, I would not have addressed their points, I would not have put time and effort into responding. This, this is what I would consider to be a dismissive reply
'That video has no basis in reality'
And the entirety of your post was 'I'll just leave this here', what is there to dismiss?

snarky,

well, maybe a little

hostile.

No, You would
know if I was being hostile.

I hate to pull the you started it card,

Come on now, you have done little else

but how the hell do you expect people to react to you when you start off a conversation that way?

Well, to be entirely honest, when I see someone who seemingly got their opinion of the military from the west wing, I don't really expect the conversation to go anywhere

But I see that by responding in kind and goading you all the way here

so you admit to trolling [/quote]

you've revealed your true colors with the "sweetheart" comment.

YOu know, because I never call any of the male posters sweetheart. I called smaugk it a few days ago. I like the overly familiar tone of it. But hey, if you need to call sexism because you have less legs to stand on than... fuck I had something for this... something with no legs, go right on ahead.

I tell you, I can smell a misogynist from a mile away, and I can always out them with a little pushing.

Oh.. is that, it is, the 'you fell into my clever trap card' YOU WIN BAD ARGUMENT BINGO

Admit it, you don't want women in the military at all, because you just don't like them, do you?

before, I was annoyed, now I am actually angry.

You have the balls the sit there and accuse me of conjecture when you then fucking accuse me of misogyny over a single word that I use for both male and female posters alike. YOu accuse me of wanting no women in the defence force?
My first PTI -A woman
My marksmanship Corporal- A woman
My first RSM -a Woman
My first specialist instructor- A woman
My Second PTI - A woman
The toughest section commander in my platoon a few years ago- A woman
Best soldier in my recruit intake - A woman
Best Instructor that I have ever had- A woman
The sergeant that to this day scares me the most - a woman

All of them (except for the third last one, she was a bit of a brown noser) were far far better soldiers than me. If I, at any point in my career, are the half the fucking soldier as any of them, I can retire a happy fucking man. But you know what fucks them over, what allows ignorant people like you to maintain your fiction that the defence force is sexist? The females who slip through the cracks and damage the inherent reliability of those soldiers.
To quote the toughest soldier that I have ever known
'Piss weak pieces of shit like you are the reason that we can't get any respect around here'-Said to a female recruit who could not march two ks with basic kit. Said female recruit passed.

So take your accusations of misogyny and... do unpleasant things with them. I know what I am, I am a belligerent, arrogant arse of a human being, but I would happily die for any soldier that I work with, male or female, and I am secure in the knowledge that they would do the same for me.

AGAIN! because it did not get through your skull the first few times. I am in favour of women in arms corps. I AM CONCERNED ABOUT INTEREST GROUPS FUCKING IT UP FOR ALL CONCERNED, MALE AND FEMALE

Yes, there are differences in the army fitness standards,

which would indicate that the army is willing to lower standards. Meaning that concerns that they will do so is rooted squarely in reality.

and personally I don't think it's a good idea either. There, we agree, don't we?

Yep, we can agree that they shouldn't change standards, or rather they should toughen them up for everybody.

But I'm glad I could accomplish what I set out to do, which was to get you to engage in actual debate involving actual research,

I posted the first result of army fitness standards from google, after posting a similar set of standards (which you rejected out of hand because reasons) and you crumbled because you have no leg to stand on

and at the same time get you to reveal your misogyny. All in all, a good time. Cheers!

You revealed something that doesn't exist, to prove a point that you don't have, which you supported with a video that is not relevant to the issue at hand.

I have to tell you, I am very annoyed at that accusation. When I have issues, emotional, financial, familial etc, it is my fellow soldiers, male and female who help me through, and you fucking accuse me of hating them.

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