Kansas arms schools

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Realitycrash:

Lil devils x:

Realitycrash:

Yes, and everything is always 'properly secured'. That's why there is never, ever a single work-accident in the entire world.
In fact, there's never a single car-accident in the entire world, for everyone drives safe and properly, never drunk, always keeping their eyes on the road, and is never distracted.

I have dropped my glock many times with safety on ( on purpose) also had it run over burried, frozen.. it is not possible for it to fire with safety on. So your saying we should take the guns from officers, military and body guards because sometimes people drink and drive?

No, I'm saying 'accidents happen' and 'people are morons'. I'm saying that claiming 'Accidents can't happen if people behave correctly' isn't a proper answer to those that say 'I fear for the day when some guard accidentally kills a student with his gun'. Gun accidents happen all the time, so your answer isn't sufficient. It's nonsensical, for of course accidents wouldn't happen if shit was done right, but then there wouldn't be an accident in the first caswe!

Gun accidents happen all the time, so those less educated and more likely to have an accident, like the guys who were on drugs in highschool cutting each other with razor blades slinging blood everywhere really shouldn't be allowed to have them right? Only those that have shown responsiblity to handle such a responsibility should be able to handle them right? That would be disarming our police department, and arming our shcool faculty.

Lil devils x:

Realitycrash:

Lil devils x:

That is awfully silly, I wouldn't think they would ever be arming students, other than on universities, where the students are adults, military and officers themselves.

I know it's silly. It's because it's an Reductio Ad Absurdum. The point is that arms-escalating seems absurd from a point-of-view of the rest of the world.

Escalation when you are not under direct threat is absurd, increasing defence after you have already been attacked repeatedly is common sense.

And so your mentality keep you thinking. You can go right ahead and do that. I honestly don't care. You want to fight fire with fire? Go ahead.

Realitycrash:

Lil devils x:

Realitycrash:

I know it's silly. It's because it's an Reductio Ad Absurdum. The point is that arms-escalating seems absurd from a point-of-view of the rest of the world.

Escalation when you are not under direct threat is absurd, increasing defence after you have already been attacked repeatedly is common sense.

And so your mentality keep you thinking. You can go right ahead and do that. I honestly don't care. You want to fight fire with fire? Go ahead.

Actually I want to solve this with education, but has to be done from the ground up, and we have generations to go through before that can be reasonably done. Allowing our schools to defend themselves is only buying time until we can achieve that.

Lil devils x:

Realitycrash:

Lil devils x:

I have dropped my glock many times with safety on ( on purpose) also had it run over burried, frozen.. it is not possible for it to fire with safety on. So your saying we should take the guns from officers, military and body guards because sometimes people drink and drive?

No, I'm saying 'accidents happen' and 'people are morons'. I'm saying that claiming 'Accidents can't happen if people behave correctly' isn't a proper answer to those that say 'I fear for the day when some guard accidentally kills a student with his gun'. Gun accidents happen all the time, so your answer isn't sufficient. It's nonsensical, for of course accidents wouldn't happen if shit was done right, but then there wouldn't be an accident in the first caswe!

Gun accidents happen all the time, so those less educated and more likely to have an accident, like the guys who were on drugs in hi9ghschool cutting each other with razor blades really shouldn't be allowed to have them right? Only those that have shown responsiblity to handle such a responsibility should be able to handle them right? That would be disarming our police department, and arming our shcool faculty.

Wow, you are comically missing the point, aren't you?
Once again: Accident happen. Saying 'Accidents doesn't happen if you use proper gun-safety and protocols' isn't an answer to 'accidents happen', since then there wouldn't be any accidents. Yet, there are, and will always be, accidents. If proper protocols and gun-safety were always in place, we wouldn't have had a single accidental death. Ever.

Realitycrash:

Lil devils x:

Realitycrash:

No, I'm saying 'accidents happen' and 'people are morons'. I'm saying that claiming 'Accidents can't happen if people behave correctly' isn't a proper answer to those that say 'I fear for the day when some guard accidentally kills a student with his gun'. Gun accidents happen all the time, so your answer isn't sufficient. It's nonsensical, for of course accidents wouldn't happen if shit was done right, but then there wouldn't be an accident in the first caswe!

Gun accidents happen all the time, so those less educated and more likely to have an accident, like the guys who were on drugs in hi9ghschool cutting each other with razor blades really shouldn't be allowed to have them right? Only those that have shown responsiblity to handle such a responsibility should be able to handle them right? That would be disarming our police department, and arming our shcool faculty.

Wow, you are comically missing the point, aren't you?
Once again: Accident happen. Saying 'Accidents doesn't happen if you use proper gun-safety and protocols' isn't an answer to 'accidents happen', since then there wouldn't be any accidents. Yet, there are, and will always be, accidents. If proper protocols and gun-safety were always in place, we wouldn't have had a single accidental death. Ever.

I never said accidents don't happen, just they are less likely to happen with more responsible people handling the situation. Accidents can happen with anything, look at how many car accidents happen every year, how many " around the house" accidents that do not involve firearms? What does this have to do with anything?

Lil devils x:

Realitycrash:

Lil devils x:

Gun accidents happen all the time, so those less educated and more likely to have an accident, like the guys who were on drugs in hi9ghschool cutting each other with razor blades really shouldn't be allowed to have them right? Only those that have shown responsiblity to handle such a responsibility should be able to handle them right? That would be disarming our police department, and arming our shcool faculty.

Wow, you are comically missing the point, aren't you?
Once again: Accident happen. Saying 'Accidents doesn't happen if you use proper gun-safety and protocols' isn't an answer to 'accidents happen', since then there wouldn't be any accidents. Yet, there are, and will always be, accidents. If proper protocols and gun-safety were always in place, we wouldn't have had a single accidental death. Ever.

I never said accidents don't happen, just they are less likely to happen with more responsible people handling the situation. Accidents can happen with anything, look at how many car accidents happen every year, how many " around the house" accidents that do not involve firearms? What does this have to do with anything?

Lil devils x:

HardkorSB:
I'm willing to bet that if this goes widespread, there will be a situation where some kids are running through the corridor, they run into a guard and push him, he falls or bumps against a wall or something, the gun shoots by accident and some kid is dead.

If properly secured, and maintained, that cannot happen. That is what a "safety" is for.

Read his comment, and your response. Your response is nonsensical. He fears an accident. You respond by saying that if everything is done right, accidents cannot happen.
Well, everything isn't always done right, and accidents DO happen. So while arming guards might, overall, do more good than harm, your response to the fear of accidental deaths is insufficient.

Realitycrash:

Lil devils x:

Realitycrash:

Wow, you are comically missing the point, aren't you?
Once again: Accident happen. Saying 'Accidents doesn't happen if you use proper gun-safety and protocols' isn't an answer to 'accidents happen', since then there wouldn't be any accidents. Yet, there are, and will always be, accidents. If proper protocols and gun-safety were always in place, we wouldn't have had a single accidental death. Ever.

I never said accidents don't happen, just they are less likely to happen with more responsible people handling the situation. Accidents can happen with anything, look at how many car accidents happen every year, how many " around the house" accidents that do not involve firearms? What does this have to do with anything?

Lil devils x:

HardkorSB:
I'm willing to bet that if this goes widespread, there will be a situation where some kids are running through the corridor, they run into a guard and push him, he falls or bumps against a wall or something, the gun shoots by accident and some kid is dead.

If properly secured, and maintained, that cannot happen. That is what a "safety" is for.

Read his comment, and your response. Your response is nonsensical. He fears an accident. You respond by saying that if everything is done right, accidents cannot happen.
Well, everything isn't always done right, and accidents DO happen. So while arming guards might, overall, do more good than harm, your response to the fear of accidental deaths is insufficient.

There is this thing called " procedure" if the firearm is checked as secure with " safety on" in the office every morning, or by anyone carrying entering their shift at the time they do so, by multiple people, as part of " procedure" a gun misfiring is impossible. It isn't very hard to have more than one person present for proper procedure. That is why you need responsible people handling it to ensure there are no " accidents".
Failing to follow procedure isn't an "accident" it is a faulty system that would allow it to happen.

Lil devils x:

Realitycrash:

Lil devils x:

I never said accidents don't happen, just they are less likely to happen with more responsible people handling the situation. Accidents can happen with anything, look at how many car accidents happen every year, how many " around the house" accidents that do not involve firearms? What does this have to do with anything?

Lil devils x:

If properly secured, and maintained, that cannot happen. That is what a "safety" is for.

Read his comment, and your response. Your response is nonsensical. He fears an accident. You respond by saying that if everything is done right, accidents cannot happen.
Well, everything isn't always done right, and accidents DO happen. So while arming guards might, overall, do more good than harm, your response to the fear of accidental deaths is insufficient.

There is this thing called " procedure" if the firearm is checked as secure with " safety on" in the office every morning, or by anyone carrying entering their shift at the time they do so, by multiple people, as part of " procedure" a gun misfiring is impossible. It isn't very hard to have more than one person present for proper procedure. That is why you need responsible people handling it to ensure there are no " accidents".
Failing to follow procedure isn't an "accident" it is a faulty system that would allow it to happen.

And yet, deaths happen that were not meant to happen. Calling them 'accidental' or 'due to faulty system' is irrelevant. Having a proper procedure done right every morning when concerned with every firearm (say making sure yours is locked and secured right in your gun-locker every morning) would eliminate deaths caused by a 'faulty system'.
Yet we will never have such a flawless system. So; accidents happen.

Skeleon:

Lil devils x:
*snip*

Square this:

"But, sure, let's use the failings of the enforcement of law and order as a shield to deflect any criticisms regarding gun regulations some more."

With this:

"When police officers are not even required to help you, you cannot then remove ones only way to defend themselves."

Maybe you should get your system fixed if it's as fucked up as people keep claiming on here and then do proper gun control. I'm not beyond doing things in a reasonable order, if that's the issue.
But I don't really think it can be that bad, lest you live in a Somalia-like hellhole part of the USA. Certainly not on a large scale, although I'll grant you isolated incidents, sure.
Actually, I think this is about preferring to have your freedoms and privacy eroded, rather than losing those particular toys and settling for more basic weaponry for self-defense.
I've mentioned the massive cultural divide I often see around here in another thread. I just can't understand why people are so uninterested in avoiding authoritarianism as long as it means holding on to some beefed-up guns. That's not freedom to me, nor is it necessarily safety.

I'm done for now, until somebody wants to talk about the issue of authoritarianism some more.

EDIT:

Realitycrash:
Now I know, I know, a total gun-ban in the US isn't feasible, but at this rate, I can't but imagine how it will look in a few decades, when we arm a few special teachers to protect us from the possible threat of armed security-guards going on a rampage (and then we arm a few students to protect us from the possible teachers going berserk and teaming up with the secutiy-guards).

Well, yeah. Probably not quite like that, but as I mentioned earlier in this thread, I think this is just one symptom of a greater issue. The USA have become increasingly authoritarian over the last decade in particular. And I don't think it'll stop anytime soon. Especially if self-proclaimed freedom-lovers cheer the increase of authoritarianism onwards. *shrug*

Well yes, I have lived in what most would consider a war zone:
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=pleasant%20grove&defid=1712233
this is common in most large cities in the US. Though Dallas also has a large issue with cartels as well. Even in the wealthy areas you have issues as well as in the rural here.
After moving to Rockwall, The wealthiest per sq ft county in the state, They found a woman who had been kidnapped leaving work chopped up in a trash bag down the street from my house, My 83 yr old neighbor held off armed gunmen with a shotgun that broke into her home at 2 am, and my Dad and a neighbor held guys who broke into another elderly neighbors home in the middle of the night to rob him until the police arrived. and that was back when crime was apparantly much lower in the area than it is now.

In my neighboring county here in even a less crime area in Kaufman Armed gunman just murdered the assistant DA in broad daylight at the court house.
http://www.wfaa.com/news/crime/Sheriff-Kaufman-County-employee-shot-near-courthouse-189198001.html
Yes, crime is that bad here, whether you are in a wealthy area, rural area, or the " hood'. Everyday I hear more. Every day, I see more in the ER. Yes regretfully it IS that bad here.

It isn't just 3rd world countries where the law is assinated, it is happening here. I really do not think people understand how bad it is here, and no, not even the " law" can rely on someone to come save them. Yes, that problem has to be addressed, and if we reduce the harm being done, I see less people thinking they need "protection", thus reducing the demand.

Edit: I didn't even get into my Highschool boyfriend who was murdered, My friend who was stabbed, my ex who tried to kill me and stabbed my neighbor, and the many many more incidents I regretfully grew up with.

I see allowing School staff to defend the school as expanding their rights, rather than limiting them further. I see making laws preventing them from basic self preservation and forcing them to helplessly watch as the students they care for are slaughtered as cruel and unusual punishment. I see the "authortarism" being in telling them they cannot do anything about it. Do you not see making that decision for them as being more "authortarian" than giving them the freedom of choice to decide for themselves?

Realitycrash:

Lil devils x:

Realitycrash:

Read his comment, and your response. Your response is nonsensical. He fears an accident. You respond by saying that if everything is done right, accidents cannot happen.
Well, everything isn't always done right, and accidents DO happen. So while arming guards might, overall, do more good than harm, your response to the fear of accidental deaths is insufficient.

There is this thing called " procedure" if the firearm is checked as secure with " safety on" in the office every morning, or by anyone carrying entering their shift at the time they do so, by multiple people, as part of " procedure" a gun misfiring is impossible. It isn't very hard to have more than one person present for proper procedure. That is why you need responsible people handling it to ensure there are no " accidents".
Failing to follow procedure isn't an "accident" it is a faulty system that would allow it to happen.

And yet, deaths happen that were not meant to happen. Calling them 'accidental' or 'due to faulty system' is irrelevant. Having a proper procedure done right every morning when concerned with every firearm (say making sure yours is locked and secured right in your gun-locker every morning) would eliminate deaths caused by a 'faulty system'.
Yet we will never have such a flawless system. So; accidents happen.

accidents happen more when you have " one" person checking, not when you have multiple people checking. The odds of accidents are eliminated by having multiple people check, due to the odds of multiple people making the same mistake at the same time are astronomical.

Lil devils x:

Realitycrash:

Lil devils x:

There is this thing called " procedure" if the firearm is checked as secure with " safety on" in the office every morning, or by anyone carrying entering their shift at the time they do so, by multiple people, as part of " procedure" a gun misfiring is impossible. It isn't very hard to have more than one person present for proper procedure. That is why you need responsible people handling it to ensure there are no " accidents".
Failing to follow procedure isn't an "accident" it is a faulty system that would allow it to happen.

And yet, deaths happen that were not meant to happen. Calling them 'accidental' or 'due to faulty system' is irrelevant. Having a proper procedure done right every morning when concerned with every firearm (say making sure yours is locked and secured right in your gun-locker every morning) would eliminate deaths caused by a 'faulty system'.
Yet we will never have such a flawless system. So; accidents happen.

accidents happen more when you have " one" person checking, not when you have multiple people checking. The odds of accidents are eliminated by having multiple people check, due to the odds of multiple people making the same mistake at the same time are astronomical.

We can add even more demands on said checks, just to make the odds even more astronomical.
Doesn't mean the checks themselves will be properly done. Because people are morons, and lazy. So accidents still happen, and this argument isn't valid.
Is it possible that armed guards in school do more good than harm? Yes.
Is it also realistically possible that an accidental death will be the result, if this system would be widely accepted across the country? Yes.

Realitycrash:

Lil devils x:

Realitycrash:

And yet, deaths happen that were not meant to happen. Calling them 'accidental' or 'due to faulty system' is irrelevant. Having a proper procedure done right every morning when concerned with every firearm (say making sure yours is locked and secured right in your gun-locker every morning) would eliminate deaths caused by a 'faulty system'.
Yet we will never have such a flawless system. So; accidents happen.

accidents happen more when you have " one" person checking, not when you have multiple people checking. The odds of accidents are eliminated by having multiple people check, due to the odds of multiple people making the same mistake at the same time are astronomical.

We can add even more demands on said checks, just to make the odds even more astronomical.
Doesn't mean the checks themselves will be properly done. Because people are morons, and lazy. So accidents still happen, and this argument isn't valid.
Is it possible that armed guards in school do more good than harm? Yes.
Is it also realistically possible that an accidental death will be the result, if this system would be widely accepted across the country? Yes.

Is it more possible that someone will come to the school and shoot people? Yes, the odds currently show you are more likely to have an attacker at school than have a firearm accident at school. We have had armed guards in schools for a very very long time now already, and no accidents, yet we have had more shootings take place at schools that did not have armed personel present. so basically, if you want to play the odds, having unarmed schools now has already proven to be more hazardous. Highschool and middle schools have already had armed guards across the nation for a very long time now, they are just adding more schools to a program that has already shown to not have accidents.

Lil devils x:

Realitycrash:

Lil devils x:

accidents happen more when you have " one" person checking, not when you have multiple people checking. The odds of accidents are eliminated by having multiple people check, due to the odds of multiple people making the same mistake at the same time are astronomical.

We can add even more demands on said checks, just to make the odds even more astronomical.
Doesn't mean the checks themselves will be properly done. Because people are morons, and lazy. So accidents still happen, and this argument isn't valid.
Is it possible that armed guards in school do more good than harm? Yes.
Is it also realistically possible that an accidental death will be the result, if this system would be widely accepted across the country? Yes.

Is it more possible that someone will come to the school and shoot people? Yes, the odds currently show you are more likely to have an attacker at school than have a firearm accident at school. We have had armed guards in schools for a very very long time now already, and no accidents, yet we have had more shootings take place at schools that did not have armed personel present. so basically, if you want to play the odds, having unarmed schools now has already proven to be more hazardous. Highschool and middle schools have already had armed guards across the nation for a very long time now, they are just adding more schools to a program that has already shown to not have accidents.

Which I fully accept, for my issue isn't with 'Odds of getting shot by an attacker compared to accidental death'. It's with 'Accidents doesn't happen if you follow proper protocol'.
So we are in agreement then.

I agree with this. Much like id agree with instituting armed guards in Somalia or Baghdad to protect the schools. America has a weird different culture to everywhere else and to be honest a trained, THOROUGHLY inspected and researched, professional guarding schools in places like America or Somalia or Baghdad seems like a good idea. The guns arnt going any time soon. And its easier to put guns in the hands of responsible officers than remove them from criminals in a gun centered culture.

That said im glad we dont have to do this here in Britain. Or have guns. I like living here for sure.

This is the sort of news that makes me glad I don't have children. Sure, its still troubling, but at least its far removed from my list of immediate problems to worry about.

BiscuitTrouser:
... professional guarding schools in places like America or Somalia or Baghdad seems like a good idea.

I laughed because it's true. Still depressing though to be compared to those places.

Why do people think that teachers with guns/guards will just leave them lying around so kids can shoot themselves? Its a weapon, there going to be conscious and make sure they have it on them at all times, ESPECIALLY in a public place. No one is that stupid.

Armed guards? that have to pass stringent requirements to be allowed to use a gun? I can agree to that.

But arming the teachers?! That's insane! What happens if a kid who is being consistently nasty finally pushes the teacher too far, and they snap and shoot the kid?

Fisher321:
Why do people think that teachers with guns/guards will just leave them lying around so kids can shoot themselves? Its a weapon, there going to be conscious and make sure they have it on them at all times, ESPECIALLY in a public place. No one is that stupid.

"There are only two infinite things. The universe and human stupidity. And I'm not so sure about the first one" ~quote from someone, I forget who.

Also, a teacher might take out the gun for whatever reason, and then suddenly a kid falls down form somewhere and breaks an arm. The teacher might just leave the gun on the table for a few seconds to help the kid. In those few seconds a kid could pick it up.

aegix drakan:

Fisher321:
Why do people think that teachers with guns/guards will just leave them lying around so kids can shoot themselves? Its a weapon, there going to be conscious and make sure they have it on them at all times, ESPECIALLY in a public place. No one is that stupid.

"There are only two infinite things. The universe and human stupidity. And I'm not so sure about the first one" ~quote from someone, I forget who.
.

It's commonly attributed to Einstein, but as with every famous quote, it might be apocryphal.

I can agree with armed guards at school but not teachers, with teachers there is just too much that could go wrong.

Fisher321:
Why do people think that teachers with guns/guards will just leave them lying around so kids can shoot themselves? Its a weapon, there going to be conscious and make sure they have it on them at all times, ESPECIALLY in a public place. No one is that stupid.

Nobody expects them to be left lying around what they are afraid of is putting it in a locked desk while teaching. There is always a chance that yes a gun could be left around but more likely that a teacher will forget they put it in their desk. Aside from a gun safe in the classroom there is no guaranteed way to assure the desk won't get broken into.

Another thing is if it strapped to the hip of a teacher and that teacher has to break up a fight they won't pull that gun but will be forced to jump into the fight with it still on their hip. That's a perfect opportunity to go for it and other instances where a teacher's first thought isn't there is someone going for my gun it's I have other things at the front of my mind.

Then there is always the feeling that this could escalate violence. If a rampage shooter comes in to a school do I imagine they'll get less shots off? Yeah but weight that against a possible escalation of violence where kids see guns every day especially their teachers having one, does that make someone think the only way to accomplish my goal against someone else(could very well be a teacher with a gun) in the school is to bring a weapon especially in schools with gang problems. That is what creating a gun culture is, being so exposed to something it becomes common place but without putting the safeguards in place that a good gun culture would have. So we may stop one or two mass shooting a year but what if at the same time we add to the amount of one off gun crimes. Majority of the gun deaths in america aren't mass shooting they are people with the access to fire arms, the will to use it, and a target to use it against. Once that target is gone they'd stop shooting and run, but what if those crimes increased by a quarter then the amount of people saved by preventing a mass shooting would be completely nullified. Yeah it makes less flashy headlines but our problems with gun violence isn't nut jobs trying to rack up a body count it's vendettas and fear.

Also unless the teachers had a psych evaluation along with something near police training I wouldn't trust them to carry a gun. I remember many high profile cases where cops kill kids that have black toy guns, whose to say a teacher that has to deal with that situation MUCH more wouldn't do the same. Pulling the trigger is pretty easy with adrenaline going through your head and a side arm on especially in situation where you are worked up about a shooting you heard about before coming to work.

There are too many if's to account for in arming teachers and the only way to test this theory is by implementing it across cities and counties and seeing what results come from it. Very immoral, fact.

What's worse?

Gun control consisting of
-Mandatory gun safety/maintenance course and target practice before eligible to own a firearm.
-Police background check.

Or

Requiring armed guards in every school.

Not saying one option necessarily fixes the other, but it seems strange that people would ever complain about their freedoms while thinking armed guards in a school is fine and dandy.

Well, I imagine I will promptly be reminded that you can't compare Europe to America, and that America is much bigger and has a totally different culture to us but nevertheless...

0 school shootings in the UK since Dunblane. Just sayin'.

Also, having armed guards in schools is creepy as fuck. I'm sure it'll seem normal to people growing up with it, but I know that I would have really resented that kind of imposition. The student council at my high school raised a big enough stink when they wanted to put security cameras in the hallways (although I gather that has since happened anyway).

Fisher321:
Why do people think that teachers with guns/guards will just leave them lying around so kids can shoot themselves?

Because they do. Not just that, but teachers and guards can also go postal and start a shooting spree. Plus the 2nd Virginia Tech shooting proved what was already highly likely: That armed guards don't prevent shootings.

ClockworkPenguin:
Well, I imagine I will promptly be reminded that you can't compare Europe to America, and that America is much bigger and has a totally different culture to us but nevertheless...

0 school shootings in the UK since Dunblane. Just sayin'.

Yeah but how many school fatal school stabbing sprees or fatal spoon beating sprees have there been? I mean if they can't get guns surely they just use another kind of weapon.

Well unless bullet proof glass costs are smaller we need someone to counter a guy with a guy with another gun.

Gergar12:
Well unless bullet proof glass costs are smaller we need someone to counter a guy with a guy with another gun.

The risk would still be there with Bullet proof glass. What happens when the shooter and the children are on the same side of the glass? That would leave the school still completely vulnerable once the aggressor has gained access to the building. It isn't hard to gain access, just kill a person with access and take their keys. If they are going to be killing people, I don't think they care all that much about killing to gain entry.

dmase:
I can agree with armed guards at school but not teachers, with teachers there is just too much that could go wrong.

Fisher321:
Why do people think that teachers with guns/guards will just leave them lying around so kids can shoot themselves? Its a weapon, there going to be conscious and make sure they have it on them at all times, ESPECIALLY in a public place. No one is that stupid.

Nobody expects them to be left lying around what they are afraid of is putting it in a locked desk while teaching. There is always a chance that yes a gun could be left around but more likely that a teacher will forget they put it in their desk. Aside from a gun safe in the classroom there is no guaranteed way to assure the desk won't get broken into.

Another thing is if it strapped to the hip of a teacher and that teacher has to break up a fight they won't pull that gun but will be forced to jump into the fight with it still on their hip. That's a perfect opportunity to go for it and other instances where a teacher's first thought isn't there is someone going for my gun it's I have other things at the front of my mind.

Then there is always the feeling that this could escalate violence. If a rampage shooter comes in to a school do I imagine they'll get less shots off? Yeah but weight that against a possible escalation of violence where kids see guns every day especially their teachers having one, does that make someone think the only way to accomplish my goal against someone else(could very well be a teacher with a gun) in the school is to bring a weapon especially in schools with gang problems. That is what creating a gun culture is, being so exposed to something it becomes common place but without putting the safeguards in place that a good gun culture would have. So we may stop one or two mass shooting a year but what if at the same time we add to the amount of one off gun crimes. Majority of the gun deaths in america aren't mass shooting they are people with the access to fire arms, the will to use it, and a target to use it against. Once that target is gone they'd stop shooting and run, but what if those crimes increased by a quarter then the amount of people saved by preventing a mass shooting would be completely nullified. Yeah it makes less flashy headlines but our problems with gun violence isn't nut jobs trying to rack up a body count it's vendettas and fear.

Also unless the teachers had a psych evaluation along with something near police training I wouldn't trust them to carry a gun. I remember many high profile cases where cops kill kids that have black toy guns, whose to say a teacher that has to deal with that situation MUCH more wouldn't do the same. Pulling the trigger is pretty easy with adrenaline going through your head and a side arm on especially in situation where you are worked up about a shooting you heard about before coming to work.

There are too many if's to account for in arming teachers and the only way to test this theory is by implementing it across cities and counties and seeing what results come from it. Very immoral, fact.

This is what I cannot understand. The police here were the guys who were the thugs here in school, and the teachers and school administrators here were the honors society, yet you would feel more comfortable with the thugs having the guns in the school rather than training the teachers? The way they did it here with School administration being conceal to carry, and the teachers having access to firearms in secured strategic locations I think is a better idea than one or the other. Yes, they can have extensive background checks, testing and training, and have also proven they have been more responsible than our current batch of police officers. I have more confidence in arming the honors society than bringing more armed thugs into the schools. When I look at who grew up to be cops and who grew up to be teachers, I will take the teachers thank you.

Blablahb:

Fisher321:
Why do people think that teachers with guns/guards will just leave them lying around so kids can shoot themselves?

Because they do. Not just that, but teachers and guards can also go postal and start a shooting spree. Plus the 2nd Virginia Tech shooting proved what was already highly likely: That armed guards don't prevent shootings.

No one can "prevent" a shooting, but they can stop one.

Vegosiux:
And again, I'll use that tired old card...chaos on the roads is always the fault of "those other morons". Not me, no ma'am, I'm a responsible driver and infallible in my skills and judgement, naturally.

Same with firearm ownership, pretty much.

Mistakes and accidents happen; that's life. Society doesn't ban Ferrari, Porsche and set limits on horsepower. None of those are problems that cause incidents and thus we don't apply lunacy like that to keep roadways safe.

It's remarkable how other things in the world are not held to the same standard that anti-gun people hold firearms, and even then it's only provoked in specific, high-profile cases.

Blablahb:
Because they do. Not just that, but teachers and guards can also go postal and start a shooting spree. Plus the 2nd Virginia Tech shooting proved what was already highly likely: That armed guards don't prevent shootings.

They're not exactly there to prevent shootings, they are there to respond to situations. This just happened in Atlanta and it worked. There's no way to see crime before they happen; trained people respond to emergencies, they don't do the work to prevent them occurring in the first place.

Columbine: Had an armed officer had his proper glasses he may have shot down one of the shooters from 60 yards in a gunfight early on.

Did you also know how many explosives those two brought with them and tried to set off? The only reason Columbine is regarded as a school shooting and not an apocalyptic bombing/shooting/knifing is because much of the explosives failed and they decided against using their knives. It's also important to note how many people were shot but survived. It's even more important to note that this happened in 1999, smack in the middle of an assault weapons ban (the two gunman favored shotguns, pistols and one carbine that was capped at 10 rounds per mag. The gunman brought thirteen magazines to compensate).

Yet somehow it's the good guys we need to be worried about...

There have been sheriffs with guns at every school I have attended for the last 12 years, and I live in Southern California. I don't see any problem with arming the guards, it's standard in a lot of places.

Lil devils x:

This is what I cannot understand. The police here were the guys who were the thugs here in school, and the teachers and school administrators here were the honors society, yet you would feel more comfortable with the thugs having the guns in the school rather than training the teachers? The way they did it here with School administration being conceal to carry, and the teachers having access to firearms in secured strategic locations I think is a better idea than one or the other. Yes, they can have extensive background checks, testing and training, and have also proven they have been more responsible than our current batch of police officers. I have more confidence in arming the honors society than bringing more armed thugs into the schools. When I look at who grew up to be cops and who grew up to be teachers, I will take the teachers thank you.

One of the major points in my post was the "gun culture" one. If a teacher is going to be strapped during school hours that is in front of all their students. Also "strategic locations" is the same thing as saying a spot where everyone can see but not everyone has access to, however not everyone can access doesn't always work that way. There are plenty of if's in that situation.

Now why do I favor guard over teachers? They are trained for it, I honestly don't think you should be a school security guard unless you've spent time on the police force and gone through the academy they put your through. Why? Because I think people specialize for a reason, so that specialization will come in handy where someone else would fail. A teacher is supposed to teach a security guard is supposed to secure. But this is one big point, a security guard doesn't stand in front of 30 different students per hour while having a gun on their hip. You give the security guard at your school the same respect you give a cop because he is dressed as one, it sets a different mental situation for a student. It's a, "they are the exception not the rule" situation.

Now back to specialization, I don't think cops are thugs, I think they are armed for a reason. If you believe cops are thugs I feel sorry for where you live, but that doesn't excuse the reality most people face. They'd rather have someone who plans on making their living by being willing to use a gun and not willing to use a gun at the same time. I trust professionals and as far as guns go besides the military the police(and school security guards) should be the next most professional at using and NOT(caps locked for importance) using a weapon. There are plenty of examples of cops losing their cool, but If we where to test that amount of unjustified shootings versus teacher not trained the numbers would involve more unwarranted deaths.(regarding civilian deaths)

Edited for drunkenness

dmase:

Lil devils x:

This is what I cannot understand. The police here were the guys who were the thugs here in school, and the teachers and school administrators here were the honors society, yet you would feel more comfortable with the thugs having the guns in the school rather than training the teachers? The way they did it here with School administration being conceal to carry, and the teachers having access to firearms in secured strategic locations I think is a better idea than one or the other. Yes, they can have extensive background checks, testing and training, and have also proven they have been more responsible than our current batch of police officers. I have more confidence in arming the honors society than bringing more armed thugs into the schools. When I look at who grew up to be cops and who grew up to be teachers, I will take the teachers thank you.

One of the major points in my post was the "gun culture" one. If a teacher is going to be strapped during school hours that is in front of all their students. Also "strategic locations" is the same thing as saying a spot where everyone can see but not everyone has access to, however not everyone can access doesn't always work that way. There are plenty of if's in that situation.

Now why do I favor guard over teachers? They are trained for it, I honestly don't think you should be a school security guard unless you've spent time on the police force and gone through the academy they put your through. Why? Because I think people specialize for a reason, so that specialization will come in handy where someone else would fail. A teacher is supposed to teach a security guard is supposed to secure. But this is one big point, a security guard doesn't stand in front of 30 different students per hour while having a gun on their hip. You give the security guard at your school the same respect you give a cop because he is dressed as one, it sets a different mental situation for a student. It's a, "they are the exception not the rule" situation.

Now back to specialization, I don't think cops are thugs, I think they are armed for a reason. If you believe cops are thugs I feel sorry for where you live, but that doesn't excuse the reality most people face. They'd rather have someone who plans on making their living by being willing to use a gun and not willing to use a gun at the same time. I trust professionals and as far as guns go besides the military the police(and school security guards) should be the next most professional at using and NOT(caps locked for importance) using a weapon. There are plenty of examples of cops losing their cool, but If we where to test that amount of unjustified shootings versus teacher not trained the numbers would involve more unwarranted deaths.(regarding civilian deaths)

Edited for drunkenness

No, the " strategic locations" cannot be seen. They built in gun safes inside the building itself to be undetectable to the human eye, and the only people aware of their locations are the people directly involved in the program and the police, fire and school adminstrators, and did not allow that information to be made public. I think they did a good job doing it that way. School administration has conceal to carry on their person, teachers have them secured in hidden gun safes.

Simply because a police officer has been trained, does not mean they have earned the " more responsible" or " better judgement" requirements moreso than school faculty. The more educated among the police force and local law enforecment are investigators and prosecutors, judges, and the schools could not possibly afford to put them as a " security guard". Those hired out as security were the guys on drugs in school cutting each other with razor blades.. I don;t think they really should be placed in the schools. Now we do have quite a few " troops to teachers" from the program that would be much better suited for the job, and they would not have to hire additional staff when they are already trained to do both, and are more educated and responsible than the current beat cops. That would allow districts to spend more on education and less on hiring the old thugs from highschool to come in and show off their guns while they smoke dope with the kiddies while banging 13 year olds. (like my schools old DARE officer very much liked to do.)

Teachers guns are in gunsafes, Administrators have them on their person. Many of our teachers and faculty are military due to the troops to teachers programs, our schools are staffed with more educated, more responsible people than our current police force. You don't think cops are thugs? HAHA! really? How many you know from school that are " on the force" now? EVERY SINGLE GUY I KNOW THAT TURNED INTO A COP WAS A CRIMINAL/THUG IN HIGHSCHOOL. EVERY. SINGLE. ONE.

The reality is no one wants the job, those with education go for better jobs and would not be assigned security anywhere. The guys who wanted to save the world that I grew up with went military, FBI, or became Judges and attorneys and one is currently working whitehouse security. None of those guys become " cops" they go on to better things. The guys who become cops are the ones who couldn't cut it elsewhere here. Putting them in school only results in much more serious problems. I would rather train those who have already proven to be responsible rather than attempt to train a thug to be responsible.

This isn't just about " cops losing their cool" I had an Uncle that used to sell from the evidence room. MY ex who tried to kill me was in school to be a cop before he went to prison instead. I had a sexual harrassment charge and restraining order against the local sheriff at the age of 17 because he groped me at work in front of my employer, customers and didn't even care and kept trying to do it again, my employer had to call the cops on the sheriff to make him leave! Don't get me wrong, I do appreciate what those guys do for us, ( except for the sherif of course) but I am not going to pretend for a second that they are someone they are not. Them having a badge and a gun doesn't change who they are, and we should never forget that. When people suddenly think that changes them into a different person that should be " trusted" is when you have 24 yr old guys placed in schools with guns that sleep with 13 yr odl girls and smoke dope with them in their squad cars, while his " partner cop" on campus plays "look out".

When having to choose between " people" best suited for a job, I will take the guy I knew in school that always took up for those less fortunate, was on the student council, served in the airforce, then decided to come home and teach at the school he grew up in vs the guy who was stealing lawnmowers and beer and almost dropped out of highschool any day.
In addition, we would be spending more on education and less on "guards". There are already plenty of very qualified and responsible teachers coming from the troops to teachers program nationwide, we should place them for what they will best be suited for. If we must hire additional staff, at least let them be useful.

cthulhuspawn82:
This should have been in place all along. School shootings consists of a maniac shooting people like fish in a barrel until police arrive. The moment armed resistance arrives, the shooting ends. It only makes sense to have armed guards/teachers at the school.

You put them at the schools. Next thing you know people in some office building get massacred and you put them at the office buildings. This idea can only horribly spiral out of control up to a point where everywhere you go there's armed individuals (albeit professionals) with guns.

A bad, bad idea, in my opinion.

Lil devils x:
Yes, that problem has to be addressed, and if we reduce the harm being done, I see less people thinking they need "protection", thus reducing the demand.

Discounting the anecdotes, I think we're in agreement here. I certainly think your system needs fixing if it's really in that bad a shape. And perhaps overzealous opposition to gun control will be lowered as well, as will the cries for increasing authoritarianism. On the other hand - and this is something I have mentioned a few times before - I don't really see that happening. Too much money is made from the fear and the broken system, isn't it? Too many profit-incentives are based on people being scared for their lives.

I see the "authortarism" being in telling them they cannot do anything about it. Do you not see making that decision for them as being more "authortarian" than giving them the freedom of choice to decide for themselves?

I can really only repeat that even the proposed gun legislation would not tell them "they cannot do anything about it", since it limits the types of guns that can be newly bought but doesn't remove them, not even those that would be covered under it. This whole bit sort of reminds me of that lady from the "independent women group" or whatever who told an anecdote about guns keeping a mother and her children safe, only to be stumped the moment an investigator in the hearing pointed out the weapon she used wouldn't be affected by the new legislation whatsoever. The anecdote kind of ends up working against her own point.

Anyway, where is the "freedom of choice to decide for themselves" in getting additional overseers added to one's school without being asked about it? In increasing authority and control on the ground? You keep going off on the gun-tangent when I keep telling you I'm making a point about the increasing authoritarianism with regards to guards, cops, cameras, frisking, constant observation etc. that reduce your freedom for the sake of (imagined) safety.

EDIT:

SimpleThunda':

cthulhuspawn82:
This should have been in place all along. School shootings consists of a maniac shooting people like fish in a barrel until police arrive. The moment armed resistance arrives, the shooting ends. It only makes sense to have armed guards/teachers at the school.

You put them at the schools. Next thing you know people in some office building get massacred and you put them at the office buildings. This idea can only horribly spiral out of control up to a point where everywhere you go there's armed individuals (albeit professionals) with guns.

A bad, bad idea, in my opinion.

Yes, that's one aspect of it. And while it could be considered a slippery slope argument, I don't think it qualifies as a slippery slope fallacy considering the way things are actually going.

SimpleThunda':

cthulhuspawn82:
This should have been in place all along. School shootings consists of a maniac shooting people like fish in a barrel until police arrive. The moment armed resistance arrives, the shooting ends. It only makes sense to have armed guards/teachers at the school.

You put them at the schools. Next thing you know people in some office building get massacred and you put them at the office buildings. This idea can only horribly spiral out of control up to a point where everywhere you go there's armed individuals (albeit professionals) with guns.

A bad, bad idea, in my opinion.

You do realize there are many many businesses here that already have armed guards don't you? Office buildings are currently just a few of them where armed guards may be present. Cops are already for hire to guard buildings as it is. Many businesses already hire guards, this is nothing new, and has been around since before the days of the railroads. They used to guard stage coaches and such, they never went away, just only "elite" businesses can afford them.

I am really surprised people didn't know that already.

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