Ex-Navy LAPD Officer Wages Guerilla War Against Former Employers

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Shaoken:

cthulhuspawn82:
So no body yet? Or they even sure they were shooting at Dorner, or is this another case of them attacking some random person they think is him?

It's a case where someone attacked them while they were looking for him. One officer is dead, others wounded, so whoever died was no innocent bystander.

In any case, Dorner faces the same problem as Bin Laden. He will not be taken alive. He is the type of individual where the police will make sure that does not happen. If he fights they will have to kill him, if he surrenders he will be shot while "resisting arrest".

Care to prove the last part? It's better for the LAPD to take him alive and have a trial to systematically destroy the myth that's built up around him being a victim of corruption.

I never assumed the person in the cabin was innocent. From what I know he was robbing the place and as you said he shot at the officers. I was just wondering if he really was Dorner or if the police are still overanxious.

As for not taking him alive, I think that's how its going to go. This is personal for them now, this guys as targeted them, their friends, and their families. The second he is in there sights, they are taking him down. I know I could overcome that emotional dilemma, but everyone keeps informing me that most people cant fully control there emotions, especially in situations like this.

I'm gonna recount all the stuff I've heard so far on the radio when I was out in the car earlier today.

Two San Bernardino Deputies were shot, one dying from his wounds on the way to the hospital. The suspect having barricaded himself in the cabin after he stole a white truck.

The FBI was the first on the scene(from the sounds of it) after the San Bernardino PD came into contact and exchanged fire with the suspect. It wasn't until around... 2:45-3:00 PM where the FBI called for a TFR(Temporary Flight Restriction) and grounded all helicopters in the area. What with there being reports that the Dorner supposedly had a man-portable air defense weapon, not really surprised. That's a lock on shoulder mounted surface to air missile for you guys.

While at that point, a lot of the radio chatter kept talking about Dorner, the LAPD, and all that stuff, not really giving any details on what's happening between 2:45 and 4:10 PM, which could have had anything from happening. Attempts to negotiate, look into the cabin, stuff like that to get a guesswork on who/what is going on.

LAPD was not brought in immediately, and kept on the back burner until roughly 4:00ish PM, where the SWAT teams were called from the airport towards the cabin, which is where conflicting reports start coming into play.

As after LAPD SWAT was called, around 4:15 PM, reports of police going into the cabin, tear gas/flash bangs being used, one lone gunshot being heard after tear gas was fired into the house, SWAT officers actually having entered the house, reports of seeing the suspect, reports of no suspect found. It was a conflicting mess. The only main stage was that tear gas was said to be used, and that the fire soon came after the tear gas. The radio voice said that tear gas has been known to cause fires, especially when mixed with something like a flash bang.

Seriously, if that is what caused the fire, then we really need to work on our tear gas/flash bang canisters. Because causing fires? That is a major, major manufacturing flaw.

Then around 4:30ish was a report, after no silence from the one lone gunshot, that suddenly there were multiple gunshots coming from the burning cabin. Which would say that any ammunition in the building caught fire.

Kind of sad it had to end with so much death. Still, that's ussually what a psycho like Dorner ends up doing and ends up like.
So how's that second amendment working for you America? Bloody enough yet?

BlackConservative:
Something about this whole thing just doesn't seem quite right at all. Also, they said they found his body, then later they recanted saying they haven't found a body at all yet. How can you get that wrong? I have a really bad feeling about all of this.

It's obvious why. The chance is tiny that it would happen, but imagine if they found a burned body, went 'cool, Dorner manhunt finally over' and by some freakish circumstance it was some other trigger happy gun loonie and Dorner was still at large, imagine the embarassment if that happened.

Probably wanted some more time to check dental records to be sure.

LordOfInsanity:
Seriously, if that is what caused the fire, then we really need to work on our tear gas/flash bang canisters. Because causing fires? That is a major, major manufacturing flaw.

Flashbangs are essentially incendiary devices. That's why it's not allowed to use them right upon people, but near them to distract, because otherwise people can get hurt.

From what I understand it's not like they produce roaring large flames or anything, but the speed of the detonation and the reaction needed to produce such a flash inherently produce heat.

Ultratwinkie:
Cocaine, pot, opium. All of these were legal in America at a certain time. Do you know what big commodities the cartels have? Cocaine and pot. Opium is considered an old timey drug, and outdated because cocaine exists.
The only reason we illegalized these drugs is because drugs and alcohol were "the devil's work." Only Alcohol escaped that fate currently.

That's not true. Anyone who's ever seen people use those drugs will be able to tell you there's more to them then 'let's make it illegal, just cuz'. Pot makes people get severe and permanent mental disorders like schizofrenia for instance (seriously potheads, don't go kneejerking on this, I've proven it on at least eight separate occasions now). Coke fiends can get extremely agressive and can really hurt their heart when they keep going at it. Don't know much about raw opium except that trading it to imperial China on a large scale basically destroyed that country because half the government officials were smoking and not getting anything done anymore.

The deal with the cartels is mostly that they're extremely well armed due to loose American gun laws. Drug criminals are bad. Drug criminals who have almost unlimited acces to guns will cause havoc.

The best way to deal with it is the current war on drugs, but from then on combined with comprehensive drug education efforts that reach most young Americans. Because right it's mostly a little 'drugs just bad okay?' that does little but make people's imagination run wild and make it sound more exciting.
Show them a 13 year old who's been smoking so much pot he doesn't care that he's about to get expelled from school and who you just can't reach anymore when talking to, then it tends to persuade people a lot better to not end up like that guy.
Also, a distinction should be made between users and sellers. People with a small quantity of drugs should be fined, not arrested. The former brings in money, the second costs money.
For instance here the fine for 'softdrugs' 5-30 grams is € 60, and all other forms of possession short of trading quantities is € 340 fine. No arrest takes place, no processing etc.

In my experience, seeing drugs in action is the best drug education ever. After you've seen (and smelled!) people shitting themselves, falling asleep in the gutter, getting messed up in crazy fights over nothing, prostitute themselves, not care about anything except smoking, insisting that 'it's not addictive' or 'but I'm not addicted' is the best way to learn that drugs are seriously bad.
If the US wants to make drug education, by all means come bring a camera crew to my workplace. I've got people dropping by daily that'll have people going like 'holy shit, don't even want to risk becoming remotely like him by doing drugs'.

Blablahb:
So how's that second amendment working for you America? Bloody enough yet?

Considering 30,000 is less than one percent of 315 million. I'd say there's little to no blood at all.

Flashbangs are essentially incendiary devices. That's why it's not allowed to use them right upon people, but near them to distract, because otherwise people can get hurt.

From what I understand it's not like they produce roaring large flames or anything, but the speed of the detonation and the reaction needed to produce such a flash inherently produce heat.

Except it wasn't a flashbang, LAPD deliberately set fire to the cabin, before they knew if he had a hostage or not. I don't need to point out how low and unethical that is.

Pot makes people get severe and permanent mental disorders like schizophrenia for instance.

You have a reputable source for this?

Smagmuck_:
You have a reputable source for this?

See last pot topic. Common knowledge that you should've be aware of.

Smagmuck_:
Except it wasn't a flashbang, LAPD deliberately set fire to the cabin

Yeah, and Bush blew up the twin towers and everything you see on youtube is true...

Smagmuck_:

Except it wasn't a flashbang, LAPD deliberately set fire to the cabin, before they knew if he had a hostage or not. I don't need to point out how low and unethical that is.

Got a better source for that? Listening to the audio (which sounds incredibly edited, by the way) they just talk of "going with the burner" and "just as we planned". Sounds damning? Maybe not:

"But he acknowledged the pyrotechnic tear gas canisters "generate a lot of heat". "We introduced those into the residence and a fire erupted," he said. "The pyrotechnic-type canisters are commonly referred to as burners."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-21454483

At this point, it seems unlikely that they deliberately burned down the cabin - particularly as they called in the fire department when they noticed the fire (as can be heard in the audio in your source). Kinda an odd thing to do, if they have just talked openly about burning him alive, no? Hell, the Sheriff's last claim in that quote should be easy enough to verify/disprove.

You may be right - but it is going to take more than that audio track to prove it. People are just going to hear what they want to hear when they listen to it.

Superbeast:
"But he acknowledged the pyrotechnic tear gas canisters "generate a lot of heat". "We introduced those into the residence and a fire erupted," he said. "The pyrotechnic-type canisters are commonly referred to as burners."

Okay, then why would they use them if there was a high chance of fire?

You may be right - but it is going to take more than that audio track to prove it. People are just going to hear what they want to hear when they listen to it.

Considering they found a completely unscathed ID of Dorner's next to a charred body, in the center of a recently burned down cabin. I'm going to call bullshit on everything the authorities say until we get a positive ID from dental records.

Smagmuck_:
Okay, then why would they use them if there was a high chance of fire?

Gosh, I don't know. Maybe someone was shooting at them and they deployed tear gas to mess with his sight and thus his ability to kill, so maybe he'd come out and surrender, or allow a swat team to storm the building.

Smagmuck_:
Considering they found a completely unscathed ID of Dorner's next to a charred body, in the center of a recently burned down cabin

And I suppose your source for that is another internet conspiracy theory?

People please! Stop fighting!

It was obvious the police were out for a kill from the get-go as evidenced by their attacks on anybody who vaguely matched the suspect description.

The cops don't like it when you come after them; kill a hundred children if you must, but if you cross that blue line -- don't expect them to go through extraordinary measures to keep you alive.

I really would like to know why they risked burning that mofo down before they confirmed that there were no hostages.

Maybe they didn't care.

Either way, it is interesting to note that ONE ARMED MAN was enough to send an entire department to quake in its boots.

Strong case for the 2nd, regardless of whether you agree with his motives or methods.

senordesol:
Strong case for the 2nd, regardless of whether you agree with his motives or methods.

I'd say it was a strong case for better psychological screening of law enforcement personnel, maybe a good argument for mental health services for servicemen and exservicemen. Good argument too for better training for the LAPD (or at least the ones that acted like chickens with their heads cut off). I don't really think that the potential for collapse of civil order is a good argument for the 2nd.

Ultratwinkie:

Cocaine, pot, opium. All of these were legal in America at a certain time. Do you know what big commodities the cartels have? Cocaine and pot. Opium is considered an old timey drug, and outdated because cocaine exists.

It's questionable whether cocaine made opium outdated given that the two have very different effects: opioids are depressants and cocaine a stimulant. The other major class of drugs of abuse is hallucinogenics, although there may be some overlap of the three in any one drug.

The most notable opioid of abuse nowadays is heroin, although others do the rounds. For other depressants commonly abused, barbiturates became common in the mid-20th century, later replaced in function by benzodiazepines (e.g. diazepam a.k.a. valium) which had similar effects but were much safer. Cannabis is also a depressant, although probably more valued for its hallucinogenic effects.

Jux:

senordesol:
Strong case for the 2nd, regardless of whether you agree with his motives or methods.

I'd say it was a strong case for better psychological screening of law enforcement personnel, maybe a good argument for mental health services for servicemen and exservicemen. Good argument too for better training for the LAPD (or at least the ones that acted like chickens with their heads cut off). I don't really think that the potential for collapse of civil order is a good argument for the 2nd.

Aye, those things two. But the 2nd is designed -in its essence- as a fail-safe against a tyrannical government. So civil order HAS to break down if the reason for which it was created are ever manifested.

I wonder if there has ever been a stand off that ended with dead gunmen that the red meat crowd didn't jump on as a conspiracy.

Agema:

Ultratwinkie:

Cocaine, pot, opium. All of these were legal in America at a certain time. Do you know what big commodities the cartels have? Cocaine and pot. Opium is considered an old timey drug, and outdated because cocaine exists.

It's questionable whether cocaine made opium outdated given that the two have very different effects: opioids are depressants and cocaine a stimulant. The other major class of drugs of abuse is hallucinogenics, although there may be some overlap of the three in any one drug.

The most notable opioid of abuse nowadays is heroin, although others do the rounds. For other depressants commonly abused, barbiturates became common in the mid-20th century, later replaced in function by benzodiazepines (e.g. diazepam a.k.a. valium) which had similar effects but were much safer. Cannabis is also a depressant, although probably more valued for its hallucinogenic effects.

Oh crap that right. It was Heroin that replaced opium, not cocaine.

Sorry, mix up.

The reason people think its outdated is because we can "concentrate it" with heroin, and that's why no one is doing opium anymore.

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