Atheist Arrogance?

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Milk:

Bentusi16:

"Oh wah, something happened years and years ago so I'm just going to keep bitching about it and using it as an excuse to be an asshole!"

Get over it. You accuse the 'churches' of being conservative and clinging to old ways and hatred, so what excuse do YOU have for doing the exact same thing?

When was the last atheist burned at the stake? Seriously?

In the year 2013 if you are an atheist in Afghanistan, Iran, Maldives, Mauritania, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia or Sudan the law demands that you be put to death.

There's also this:

image

But do it without being a massive douchebag about it because nothing gives you an excuse to be rude. Nothing.

You're telling people not to be rude by calling them douchebags.

Legit.

I want to frame this post.

Milk:

Bentusi16:

"Oh wah, something happened years and years ago so I'm just going to keep bitching about it and using it as an excuse to be an asshole!"

Get over it. You accuse the 'churches' of being conservative and clinging to old ways and hatred, so what excuse do YOU have for doing the exact same thing?

When was the last atheist burned at the stake? Seriously?

In the year 2013 if you are an atheist in Afghanistan, Iran, Maldives, Mauritania, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia or Sudan the law demands that you be put to death.

There's also this:

image

But do it without being a massive douchebag about it because nothing gives you an excuse to be rude. Nothing.

You're telling people not to be rude by calling them douchebags.

Legit.

You could have linked the article, seeing how lazy myself and others are: http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2012/12/10/the-seven-countries-where-the-state-can-execute-you-for-being-atheist/

Arakasi:

Call it condescending, but I pity people with faith.

That's condescending! lol

OT: Not that I'm really one to talk, but talk about proving the point, this thread has soooo muuuuch smug!

BiscuitTrouser:

Ive never met an atheist who has ever wished hell onto a christian ever. No atheist i have ever met has hated christians enough to wish they would enter anywhere NEAR as horrible and disgustingly violent as hell ever. I just dont think they have it in their hearts to feel hate of that magnitude to wish such awful suffering on someone.

Ok, we need to talk. Cause this is misconception after misconception after lie after misconception. (The lie is the atheists not wishing hell on people, because if I have to hear "Hell doesn't exist, but if it did, you should go there" one more time, I'm going to puke.)

Misconception number 1- religious people wish others would go to hell. Ignoring the flippant "go to hell!" that everyone says all the time without any level of seriousness, almost nobody wishes hell on anyone. Conflating "belief that someone will go to hell" and "wishing they would go to hell" is deliberate on your part, so stop it. Second, and we've had this conversation before, Christians thinking someone is a sinner doesn't mean they think they're going to hell. Christianity is the "everyone's a sinner beyond their control, everyone can be forgiven beyond their control" group, so stop playing victim because Christians think you do something that's sinful, that just makes you the same as everyone else. Third misconception, "horrible and disgustingly violent" hell is medieval fiction, not Christian doctrine.

And finally, I'm tired of the word "hate" being thrown around. Didn't anyone ever tell you that hate is a strong word? And yet nowadays it's applied to anyone who even marginally disagrees with someone clearly just for emotional leverage and it's kind of BS.

tstorm823:

Ok, we need to talk. Cause this is misconception after misconception after lie after misconception. (The lie is the atheists not wishing hell on people, because if I have to hear "Hell doesn't exist, but if it did, you should go there" one more time, I'm going to puke.)

Its not a lie to say ive never seen it YOU just lied when you twisted "Ive never seen it" to "It never happens". Are you saying IM lying about witnessing it? Because im not. Thats me basing it on my evidence. From what youve said ill concede immediately. If a person says that to you that person is awful. An awful awful person. Ive never heard an atheist say it but thats disgusting.

Misconception number 1- religious people wish others would go to hell. Ignoring the flippant "go to hell!" that everyone says all the time without any level of seriousness, almost nobody wishes hell on anyone. Conflating "belief that someone will go to hell" and "wishing they would go to hell" is deliberate on your part, so stop it. Second, and we've had this conversation before, Christians thinking someone is a sinner doesn't mean they think they're going to hell. Christianity is the "everyone's a sinner beyond their control, everyone can be forgiven beyond their control" group, so stop playing victim because Christians think you do something that's sinful, that just makes you the same as everyone else. Third misconception, "horrible and disgustingly violent" hell is medieval fiction, not Christian doctrine.

First off im NOT talking about all religious people. This is LITERALLY aimed at people who behave with the attitude that i described. I KNOW religious people feel that way. Id never fall in love with a christian girl if i thought so little of me that i deserved hell. This is a minority of people. Also if you BELIEVE someone will go to hell for "Just atheism" i cant respect your integrity. If i knew a being was doing that to innocent people it would be my LIFE mission to find and destroy it or take its power away. Its hideous. How does anyone back a being thats ok with that. Belief in it and still worshipping god to me is the same as backing the insane dictator who tortures people and saying "WELL I DONT WISH HE TORTURES YOU I JUST SUPPORT THE TORTURER".

Every time we talk i walk away feeling happy and then talk to another Chritian online who seems to revel in the idea of me "Being in ashes" or gloats that IM going to hell and THEY are going to heaven and "ill see in the end" with a smug superiority as if "Thatl show that stupid atheist that he was wrong". If you REALLY think what hell, as its commonly percieved, IS then thats a scary thing for a person to say. It DOES indicate hate. No matter who you are, an atheist saying they wished hell was for christians or a christian talking of sinners going to hell smugly saying that about someone strikes me as awfully sadistic. Its disturbing. And honestly its frightningly common online to see the "Youll be BURNING" defence. Especially Youtube.

And finally, I'm tired of the word "hate" being thrown around. Didn't anyone ever tell you that hate is a strong word? And yet nowadays it's applied to anyone who even marginally disagrees with someone clearly just for emotional leverage and it's kind of BS.

I would never use it that way. Hate is the only emotion i can tie to people who seem to take GLEE in the idea of me being in Hell and describing said burning. I have NOTHING against those who behave like you say, just treating us all equally as sinners worthy of respect and forgiveness. Its the superior "Im worthy of heaven YOURE hell fodder" that i DO see quite often that really disgusts me. Im quite happy most Christians and the catholic doctrine contain some middle ground or forgiveness. That makes more sense morally. I just dont think any belief in hell at all is morally justified. No one is worthy of hell. No one. I find it extremely distasteful anyone would support a being that arranged such a system.

Yeah this is a big issue for me that im wrestling with. I cant help but feel any belief at all in the existance of hell makes you slightly immoral. I cant think of any way to justify its existence or anything but the strongest most relentless opposition toward anyone ever going there at any point.

I do really wanna talk this out with you because legitimately every time it keeps cropping up and really bugging me. I cant resolve this in my head.

Ive done some research on the matter and the medieval fantasy thing doesnt really hold up. I mean heres what i found with a quick google search:

http://bible.org/article/what-bible-says-about-hell

tstorm823:
OT: Not that I'm really one to talk, but talk about proving the point, this thread has soooo muuuuch smug!

I wasn't going to be the first one to say it but yeah... considering this thread is about atheist arrogance some posts are sure ironic.
On the other hand I just noticed Blab finally managed to give himself the last push to a ban, so there's one source of general smugness gone.

Quaxar:

On the other hand I just noticed Blab finally managed to give himself the last push to a ban, so there's one source of general smugness gone.

What!? NOOO! Blab was one of my favorites- from the time he said Ron Paul was an oathbreaker for being a doctor against abortions because not giving abortions is doing harm to women and he's supposed to do no harm, to the time he said scientific integrity is outdated and we need to be able to determine witch non-empirical conclusions should be objectively taught as hard fact, I'll never forget all the baseless, biased things that came from his computer to mine; I truely enjoyed every moment. This is the most heartbreaking ban ever.

BiscuitTrouser:

And honestly its frightningly common online to see the "Youll be BURNING" defence. Especially Youtube.

Oh! That's not Christians, that's youtube. The Christians there want you to burn in hell; they are also navy seals trained in gorilla warfare. Don't Go Into Youtube Comments. Everywhere else on the internet, comments sections and forums are where to be. Youtube is for videos, the comments are pure evil. That right there is my image of hell- the youtube comments section.

Yeah this is a big issue for me that im wrestling with. I cant help but feel any belief at all in the existance of hell makes you slightly immoral. I cant think of any way to justify its existence or anything but the strongest most relentless opposition toward anyone ever going there at any point.

I suppose I can see where you're coming from. It is a weird thing. But then again, I'm Catholic. We have ad hoc purgatory, we don't really say for certain that anyone goes to hell (there aren't anti-saints), and my concept of hell is pretty close to the total infinite oblivion one would might imagine the lack of an afterlife to be anyway.

tstorm823:
This is the most heartbreaking ban ever.

Oh! That's not Christians, that's youtube. The Christians there want you to burn in hell; they are also navy seals trained in gorilla warfare. Don't Go Into Youtube Comments. Everywhere else on the internet, comments sections and forums are where to be. Youtube is for videos, the comments are pure evil. That right there is my image of hell- the youtube comments section.

I suppose I can see where you're coming from. It is a weird thing. But then again, I'm Catholic. We have ad hoc purgatory, we don't really say for certain that anyone goes to hell (there aren't anti-saints), and my concept of hell is pretty close to the total infinite oblivion one would might imagine the lack of an afterlife to be anyway.

I too will miss blab. Even i thought that oathbreaker thing was weird. I missed his xenophobia too, always fun.

Perhaps this is where im going wrong. Perhaps these people dont REALLY feel that way but are possessed by the giant evil entity that IS youtube to say such horrible things. This seems rational.

If thats your idea of hell id be ok going there. Its where i imagine im going anyway ive dealt with that ages ago.

BOOM headshot65:
hell, I have friends from just about every major religion except Islam[1]. So long as they arent being an ass I dont give a damn what thier religion or lack thereof is.

I may have you equaled, mostly due to my mum.

Lets have a look. One friend(ish) is a self-described zionist Jew, one is a muslim born and raised in Saudi Arabia. My dad is atheist, as is my brother.
My mum (brace yourself) was born and raised Catholic. However, over a period of about a decade, she was Jewish (sort of), Mormon, Methodist, Wiccan, and Jehovah Witness. Now she has an odd combination of Wicca, Catholicism and an appreciation of Buddhism.

[1] Namely, one is Southern Baptist of the moderate flavor, One is still soul searching but has a sister that is Wiccan, two are extremely religious Lutherans of the tolerance variety, one is a religious bisexual (her church accepts her though), one is what I call a "Midwestern Athiest" (namely, she says she is athiest, but she believes in God and just doesnt have a religion), one I have no idea but I think she is Catholic, I already explain above, and my girlfriend comes from a catholic family that didnt have her baptized so she could choose her religion, and she believes that there is a God and Devil, but that there is no Heaven or Hell and we walk the Earth as ghost after we die.

tstorm823:

Oh! That's not Christians, that's youtube.

That's right. No true Christian would do such a thing. They're fake, fake I tell you.

Okay, that was maybe a degree or two too obvious. And while Poe's law is in effect on the internet, I've become jaded to it and assume that everyone who's being a massive douchebag is being serious unless indicated by a mountain of smileys and all.

But thing is - there are Christians out there who believe I will meet some kind of an eternally agonizing fate merely for not agreeing with them. And they are loud.

And I generally tend to ignore them unless they get in my face, mind. Oh, and by the way, I also get what you're saying. Wishing hell upon your fellow human is a distinctly un-Christian thing to do. I agree. No true Christian should wish hell on their fellow man. But religion is a matter of interpretation. It's, for the lack of a better word, a story that is told, maybe an Aesop fable, if you will. But people misinterpret it, even if they start from the same source.

So the question here is; is "Christianity" a way of life and behavior, or is it "believing in some scriptures"?

I am smug. It's easy as an atheist. I'm Rational, I'm open to any tangible proof for religion but that has had a pretty long track record of not panning out. All the burden is on the Religions of the world to prove their point of view correct and they haven't because they can't. Atheism is sitting pretty as inarguable until proof of a god is presented. I'm still waiting for a reason to not be smugly confident in my beliefs. I don't see any reason to be apologetic, either.

BiscuitTrouser:
Ive never met an atheist who has ever wished hell onto a christian ever. No atheist i have ever met has hated christians enough to wish they would enter anywhere NEAR as horrible and disgustingly violent as hell ever. I just dont think they have it in their hearts to feel hate of that magnitude to wish such awful suffering on someone. I sure cant. Ive just never heard anything like it. While "Hell" seems to be the go to threat for the very christians ive never seen atheists wish the level of suffering remotely comparable to "Infinite time in infinite pain" on a christian. Im willing to be shown examples but in general "I think youre stupid" is a whole lot better than "I think you deserve burning needles jammed into your eyes bathed in acid for the same length of time it takes a termite to errode the entire planet by pissing on it" because when people say you deserve hell for being an atheist THATS a laughably NICE place compared to what they are gleefully reveling in the idea of happening to you.

I cant help but feel a little disgusted by people who believe in biblical hell and agree with its existence. Sorry but my moral compass doesnt allow huge amounts of torture or pain even on those who do the worst of wrongs. Especially when said torture NEVER ENDS. I relate to people on a person by person basis though. And for the most part i just dont mention it or worry about it. I know its not real and ill be ok, just the thought of ever hating someone enough to wish them in HELL is so alien to me. I struggle to understand how anyone can honestly wish that on another person and not be a demented sadist who cuts up small animals for fun. Im a little disturbed by and terrified of people who believe its both real and just.

Even with that in mind two wrongs dont make a right. And while ill be sure in my heart of hearts im DEFINITELY morally superior to anyone who thinks torture as a corrective (but not really since it never ends) device is the ideal solution to "people like me" its not nice to behave that way or make people feel like you look down on them. I dont particularly like Dawkins, which surprises many people i talk to this about. Answering anger with anger never ends well.

Its true, and I also like to point out that Infinite punishment for "crimes" and "sin" committed in a FINITE existence is the most illogical nonsense ever.

On the subject of "Jesus Saves" I do think that is smug. Here is why. They are proclaiming that their messianic figure saves. It can (and should) be taken to mean that ONLY their messianic figure saves. Only through him can one find salvation. Everything and anything else is false and anyone worshiping those figures will burn in hell, or at least not enter the gates of St. Peter. So, forgive me if every time I hear that stuff it leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

I'm no atheistic zealot. If I came to my views earlier in my youth I might have been, but I just don't care anymore. Its true Dawkins has taken up the mantle of a crusade... and honestly I'm glad he did. In the U.S. we still have people denying evolution and saying that "it came straight from the pit of Hell". Someone needs to stand up to crazy religious fanatics and if it takes atheist fanatics than so be it. I'll still take them over the other kind.

Dawkins has also done other meaningful work in the realm of science before going full force against religion. He's an ethologist and wrote several good books on genes and phylogeny.

Arakasi:

Call it condescending, but I pity people with faith. Having been brainwashed and not being able to break free from it? It is terrible, and I would know, having formerly been a brainwashed Christian as a child.

What about late-life converts, like C.S. Lewis, or me?

Indecipherable:
God is shoved into our faces more than daily. Why are we the outspoken "unique flowers" when we express our belief but God-folk have a licence to not just advertise prolifically but also intrude on us through means of Political and Regulatory forces? What a terribly hypocritical condescension.

That's interesting. I had no real experience with religion for the vast majority of my life until I entered college. I fought back against this perceived enemy most of my life as well, despite never having experienced any persecution or oppression. (Or anything really)

In what way has religion intruded on your life, on a personal level?

Hafrael:

Arakasi:

Call it condescending, but I pity people with faith. Having been brainwashed and not being able to break free from it? It is terrible, and I would know, having formerly been a brainwashed Christian as a child.

What about late-life converts, like C.S. Lewis, or me?

Depends on the circumstances and reasons behind your conversion really, but I do consider it a shame to have lost a good mind to such a philosophy, be that Lewis or you.

Arakasi:

Hafrael:

Arakasi:

Call it condescending, but I pity people with faith. Having been brainwashed and not being able to break free from it? It is terrible, and I would know, having formerly been a brainwashed Christian as a child.

What about late-life converts, like C.S. Lewis, or me?

Depends on the circumstances and reasons behind your conversion really, but I do consider it a shame to have lost a good mind to such a philosophy, be that Lewis or you.

What about all the good minds who were religious, scientists, philosophers, doctors, etc.

I don't believe I've lost my mind, or my ability to interact positively in the world just because I've found a connection to the divine. I'd like to know why you think I have.

Ishal:

Dawkins has also done other meaningful work in the realm of science before going full force against religion. He's an ethologist and wrote several good books on genes and phylogeny.

Thank you! I feel this is seriously overlooked. People have this idea of a man who has devoted his life to the fight against religion; in reality, they're reducing his work, ignoring a sizeable body of scientific writing & research.

The man has written eleven books. One was about atheism. He is a lot more than he's been reduced to by the news cycle.

Quaxar:

On the other hand I just noticed Blab finally managed to give himself the last push to a ban, so there's one source of general smugness gone.

Ahh. Can't say I'm too surprised. I haven't been a member here very long, and Blab managed to make a very... strong impression on me in that time.

Hafrael:

Arakasi:

Hafrael:

What about late-life converts, like C.S. Lewis, or me?

Depends on the circumstances and reasons behind your conversion really, but I do consider it a shame to have lost a good mind to such a philosophy, be that Lewis or you.

What about all the good minds who were religious, scientists, philosophers, doctors, etc.

Still a shame. I'd rather trust a doctor, or a scientist who doesn't believe in something that has no evidence than one who does, who knows what else they could hold to be true that has no evidence. As for a philosopher, to paraphrase Camus, religion is philosophical suicide. As for a theologian, waste of a mind. Utter waste.

Hafrael:

I don't believe I've lost my mind, or my ability to interact positively in the world just because I've found a connection to the divine. I'd like to know why you think I have.

I never said you lost it, I don't think you ever had it, because I don't think you can simply lose it without brain damage. I am not talking about your mind though, it is the incapability that I have to continue holding a viewpoint which has no evidence and no logic behind it. Critical thinking and it's application to worldview.

Arakasi:
As for a theologian, waste of a mind. Utter waste.

I'd have to disagree here. While I see an intelligent person becoming a priest of some sort as a waste of a mind, theology is a little different. It's not just instruction of a religion that is covered by that umbrella, but also the influence it has on society. And while I may find religion silly and unnecessary in modern life, I would be an idiot to say that it has not been significant throughout history, and for that reason it's worthy of some study.

To some extent, it's kind of just a focus on religion from an anthropological position.

CAMDAWG:

Arakasi:
As for a theologian, waste of a mind. Utter waste.

I'd have to disagree here. While I see an intelligent person becoming a priest of some sort as a waste of a mind, theology is a little different. It's not just instruction of a religion that is covered by that umbrella, but also the influence it has on society. And while I may find religion silly and unnecessary in modern life, I would be an idiot to say that it has not been significant throughout history, and for that reason it's worthy of some study.

To some extent, it's kind of just a focus on religion from an anthropological position.

If you were to do a theology degree from that angle, a historical and sociological one, that would make you an extreme minority in the field of theology, and it is one of the few exceptions I'd make.

Dont really notice athiests arrogance in real life, probably because religion and politics can be considered to be touchy topics, especially around people who are actually in punching range of you.

Really only notice it when the media gets involved.....or on a certain website forum...

Arakasi:

Still a shame. I'd rather trust a doctor, or a scientist who doesn't believe in something that has no evidence than one who does, who knows what else they could hold to be true that has no evidence. As for a philosopher, to paraphrase Camus, religion is philosophical suicide. As for a theologian, waste of a mind. Utter waste.

That's so interesting. Do you not trust basically every big name in science pre-enlightenment?

Also you have obviously not studied much theology or philosophy. The struggle between the human and the divine, heaven and earth, body and mind, is an incredibly interesting and intellectually challenging field of study.

I never said you lost it, I don't think you ever had it, because I don't think you can simply lose it without brain damage. I am not talking about your mind though, it is the incapability that I have to continue holding a viewpoint which has no evidence and no logic behind it. Critical thinking and it's application to worldview.

I sincerely doubt you do not have any ideas that have no evidence behind them.

Hafrael:

Arakasi:

Still a shame. I'd rather trust a doctor, or a scientist who doesn't believe in something that has no evidence than one who does, who knows what else they could hold to be true that has no evidence. As for a philosopher, to paraphrase Camus, religion is philosophical suicide. As for a theologian, waste of a mind. Utter waste.

That's so interesting. Do you not trust basically every big name in science pre-enlightenment?

Apologies, I was refering to modern people. However I would still be suspicious of those who defended their faith pre-enlightenment.

Hafrael:

Also you have obviously not studied much theology or philosophy.

I beg to differ.

Hafrael:
The struggle between the human and the divine...

There is no divine, problem solved.

Hafrael:
..heaven and earth...

There is no heaven, problem solved.

Hafrael:
...body and mind...

Mind is merely maifestation of the brain as it runs.

Hafrael:
...is an incredibly interesting...

Agreed

Hafrael:
...and intellectually challenging field of study.

Disagreed. I find it quite easy.

Hafrael:

I never said you lost it, I don't think you ever had it, because I don't think you can simply lose it without brain damage. I am not talking about your mind though, it is the incapability that I have to continue holding a viewpoint which has no evidence and no logic behind it. Critical thinking and it's application to worldview.

I sincerely doubt you do not have any ideas that have no evidence behind them.

If you can find me one, I will gladly change it upon you pointing it out.

Arakasi:

CAMDAWG:

Arakasi:
As for a theologian, waste of a mind. Utter waste.

I'd have to disagree here. While I see an intelligent person becoming a priest of some sort as a waste of a mind, theology is a little different. It's not just instruction of a religion that is covered by that umbrella, but also the influence it has on society. And while I may find religion silly and unnecessary in modern life, I would be an idiot to say that it has not been significant throughout history, and for that reason it's worthy of some study.

To some extent, it's kind of just a focus on religion from an anthropological position.

If you were to do a theology degree from that angle, a historical and sociological one, that would make you an extreme minority in the field of theology, and it is one of the few exceptions I'd make.

Yep, without a doubt its not the same for everyone, it's just that I don't think "theologian" should be a profession that instantly triggers that kind of response. It's a bit like with homeopaths and nutritionists/chiropractors. If someone says they are a homeopath, then they are worth being regarded as a waste. Whereas with a nutritionist/chiropractor, they MIGHT be a complete nutcase, but you should listen to them first to figure out if they are.

That was a pretty tortured analogy. I hope it makes sense.

tstorm823:

OT: Not that I'm really one to talk, but talk about proving the point, this thread has soooo muuuuch smug!

For the most part people have remained civil but yes, one or two are kinda proving my point :)

Still, every group has these problems it's just because I hadn't really heard anyone calling out Atheists on it before without being labeled 'crazy butthurt christians'. The unfolding conversation has been interesting to say the least.

Arakasi:

Hafrael:
The struggle between the human and the divine...

There is no divine, problem solved.

If you think this millennia long struggle can be ended with that sentence you don't know anything about it.

And to think it's over you'd have to be insane, look at the money the Avengers made!

Hafrael:

Arakasi:

Hafrael:
The struggle between the human and the divine...

There is no divine, problem solved.

If you think this millennia long struggle can be ended with that sentence you don't know anything about it.

And to think it's over you'd have to be insane, look at the money the Avengers made!

I'm not sure bringing up a piece of cheap, lowest common denominator entertainment is going to help you establish the seriousness of that struggle, no offense...

Vegosiux:

I'm not sure bringing up a piece of cheap, lowest common denominator entertainment is going to help you establish the seriousness of that struggle, no offense...

Popular media is a good way to get into the mindset of those who consume it, you can take your intellectual elitism elsewhere.

Hafrael:

Vegosiux:

I'm not sure bringing up a piece of cheap, lowest common denominator entertainment is going to help you establish the seriousness of that struggle, no offense...

Popular media is a good way to get into the mindset of those who consume it, you can take your intellectual elitism elsewhere.

Intellectual elitism? You were the one saying how it's an "intellectually challenging" thing. And now I am being "elitist" because I say Avengers aren't really a good example to make your case for that?

What is this I don't even

Silvanus:

Ishal:

Dawkins has also done other meaningful work in the realm of science before going full force against religion. He's an ethologist and wrote several good books on genes and phylogeny.

Thank you! I feel this is seriously overlooked. People have this idea of a man who has devoted his life to the fight against religion; in reality, they're reducing his work, ignoring a sizeable body of scientific writing & research.

The man has written eleven books. One was about atheism. He is a lot more than he's been reduced to by the news cycle.

"The Selfish Gene" was pretty nice. I'm afraid to say that I haven't read any other books. Any recommendations?

Silvanus:

Quaxar:

On the other hand I just noticed Blab finally managed to give himself the last push to a ban, so there's one source of general smugness gone.

Ahh. Can't say I'm too surprised. I haven't been a member here very long, and Blab managed to make a very... strong impression on me in that time.

I'll miss Blab actually. He was an interesting person and he was good at calling out bullshit. A tad too militant though.

Is it still arrogant if we're right?

Sorry, couldn't resist.

Hafrael:

Arakasi:

Hafrael:
The struggle between the human and the divine...

There is no divine, problem solved.

If you think this millennia long struggle can be ended with that sentence you don't know anything about it.

Really? Because there is absolutely 0 valid evidence towards a divine, so there should be 0 assumption of one. It's not that difficult a problem really.

Hafrael:

And to think it's over you'd have to be insane, look at the money the Avengers made!

I'm not sure if that's a joke, or meant to be relevant, but I haven't seen the Avengers. If you're serious I'd easily argue there are many other reasons to watch the Avengers than whatever it has to do with the divine.

Because Atheists are human, and humans are arrogant assholes. What most people fail to understand about religion, especially atheists, is that all the negative qualities we attach to religion, such as arrogant self righteousness and antipathy toward other people and there ideas, are not religious qualities, but human ones, and would exist even in the absence of religion(e.g. in an atheist)

Frission:

"The Selfish Gene" was pretty nice. I'm afraid to say that I haven't read any other books. Any recommendations?

The Greatest Show on Earth is pretty good. A Devil's Chaplain is interesting if, like me, you enjoy short essays (it's a collection. Admittedly, one such essay IS about atheism/ religion, but most are not).

cthulhuspawn82:
Because Atheists are human, and humans are arrogant assholes. What most people fail to understand about religion, especially atheists, is that all the negative qualities we attach to religion, such as arrogant self righteousness and antipathy toward other people and there ideas, are not religious qualities, but human ones, and would exist even in the absence of religion(e.g. in an atheist)

That's true with regards to self-righteousness. But I don't think homophobia, sectarianism, & radical aversion to science & progress would be nearly as strong without religion.

Captcha: "Be my friend". Aw, okay, captcha.

Silvanus:

Frission:

"The Selfish Gene" was pretty nice. I'm afraid to say that I haven't read any other books. Any recommendations?

The Greatest Show on Earth is pretty good. A Devil's Chaplain is interesting if, like me, you enjoy short essays (it's a collection. Admittedly, one such essay IS about atheism/ religion, but most are not).

cthulhuspawn82:
Because Atheists are human, and humans are arrogant assholes. What most people fail to understand about religion, especially atheists, is that all the negative qualities we attach to religion, such as arrogant self righteousness and antipathy toward other people and there ideas, are not religious qualities, but human ones, and would exist even in the absence of religion(e.g. in an atheist)

That's true with regards to self-righteousness. But I don't think homophobia, sectarianism, & radical aversion to science & progress would be nearly as strong without religion.

Captcha: "Be my friend". Aw, okay, captcha.

Sectarianism yes, because that involves religion by definition. However, aversion to science and progress? Nope, I give you moon landing deniers, anti-vaccers, homeopaths etc. Homophobia? much as I hate to pull a godwin that could easily be amplified by a secular belief in eugenics so nope.

This is a world where sports matches regularly lead to rioting, and where an extended cold war potentially leading to nuclear catastrophe arose because two blocks disagreed about how best to run an economy. I agree with Cthuluspawn that there is reason to suppose that we are naturally tribal and divisive, and religion is just one more outlet.

ClockworkPenguin:
SNIP

I never said that those things wouldn't exist; I said they would not be nearly as strong, and I stand by that. The damaging effects on science of religion are evident from UK tabloids to US schools.

And the man on the train, physically threatening me and blabbering incoherently about how I'll "never get into the kingdom of God", when I put my arm around my boyfriend, is evidence of the other. That, and a thousand American evangelists and UK Tory firebrands.

It's conceivable that without religion, these people would simply blather on about "tradition" or somesuch. Admittedly, many homophobes disapprove of homosexuality simply because they're personally repulsed, and many anti-Scientists believe the things they do because they just don't like tricky science.

But many others are homophobes or anti-Scientists for fundamentally religious reasons, and even most of the rest use religion as a smokescreen, and are legitimised by it.

Silvanus:

Ishal:

Dawkins has also done other meaningful work in the realm of science before going full force against religion. He's an ethologist and wrote several good books on genes and phylogeny.

Thank you! I feel this is seriously overlooked. People have this idea of a man who has devoted his life to the fight against religion; in reality, they're reducing his work, ignoring a sizeable body of scientific writing & research.

The man has written eleven books. One was about atheism. He is a lot more than he's been reduced to by the news cycle.

I know this is an aside (sort of) to the main topic but I am glad this is mentioned. I am a big fan of Dawkins' books but have never read the God Delusion. Not out of principal or anything but I don't think I am its target audience. I used to be a very devout Christian but stopped believing as I studied more ancient history, archaeology and the biblical writings (ironically the reason I was researching these things was to help make my preaching more effective). I don't need the God Delusion to present any more reasons to not believe in Christianity as I already find it completely silly now and I don't need arguments against other religions because my Christian years taught me how silly they were too.

Silvanus:
[quote="ClockworkPenguin" post="528.401935.16593674"]
It's conceivable that without religion, these people would simply blather on about "tradition" or somesuch. Admittedly, many homophobes disapprove of homosexuality simply because they're personally repulsed, and many anti-Scientists believe the things they do because they just don't like tricky science.

I personally know someone who often has some racist and homophobic ideas without being religious at all. It's very much a result of being raised in a very old-school European culture and not being too interested in critical thinking. That said; he is literally the only person I know like that - everyone else I know who holds views like his are religious.

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