University Student Faces Expulsion For Speaking Out Against Her Rapist

I wish I could make that shit up.

A student who was raped last spring at the University of North Carolina is facing suspension or expulsion for "Violating the school's honor code and creating a hostile environment for HER ATTACKER."

She was given this notice after her attacker remained in school, so she filed a complaint with the US Department of Education, alleging the school was railroading her into keeping the amount of sexual assault cases on campus down.

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout/unc-sexual-assault-rape-victim-honor-code-142933849.html

While the school hasn't commented due to privacy laws, if even half of this is true... damn...

EDIT:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/01/16/unc-sexual-assault_n_2488383.html

Apparently this has happened before... and in what is perhaps the most BS thing I ever heard about colleges ever... THE HONOR COURT AT UNC REGULARLY HANDLES SEXUAL ASSAULT CASES RATHER THAN TURN THEM OVER TO THE POLICE...

WHAT... THE... FUCK...

Of course he's still in that school. It may suck, but that's just how it is. Untill convicted by a court he's innocent, plus that expelling a student over an allegation would be really, really bad and an open invitation to attack people who you dislike; just accuse them of rape and they can kiss their education goodbye, no matter how innocent they are.

The rest of what the school did is wrong though, it's just protecting their image while it's really a matter that should be left fully with the authorities.

Until he is convicted....he can not be legally treated as a rapist. It sucks, it really sucks, but that is the way it HAS to be. Now the whole honor court thing has me going WTF?

Um, that's not what the articles say at all. They say she faces sanctions for complaining to the Education Department that she and others like her are pressured into under-reporting sexual assault cases. She doesn't even know who the alleged rapist was.

The other stuff though, about the University dealing with sexual assault cases in house: all there, and all most certainly disgusting.

DJjaffacake:
Um, that's not what the articles say at all. They say she faces sanctions for complaining to the Education Department that she and others like her are pressured into under-reporting sexual assault cases. She doesn't even know who the alleged rapist was.

The other stuff though, about the University dealing with sexual assault cases in house: all there, and all most certainly disgusting.

The case in question comes a month after a report of people being pressured into under-reporting sexual assault. The female student that this particular issue is about does know her rapist - he was actually her boyfriend who repeatedly verbally and sexually abused her.

This kind of this is a well documented yet widely ignored issue, and I am certainly glad, OP, that you are horrified. We should all be horrified. Whether or not the accused has been convicted is not the issue here. The point is that the school is trying to keep this woman from speaking out about her experience, which she does for personal healing AND to help prevent it from happening to other girls. The school does this to protect their image, as they are afraid that they might lose some precious tuition money if parents think their daughters will be raped if they go there.

It happens all the time. It's immensely fucked up. It makes me have a rage seizure each time I hear about it.

Sonofadiddly:

This kind of this is a well documented yet widely ignored issue, and I am certainly glad, OP, that you are horrified. We should all be horrified. Whether or not the accused has been convicted is not the issue here. The point is that the school is trying to keep this woman from speaking out about her experience, which she does for personal healing AND to help prevent it from happening to other girls. The school does this to protect their image, as they are afraid that they might lose some precious tuition money if parents think their daughters will be raped if they go there.

The school is afraid of being sued, free speech stops at someone else's nose, and sadly his nose is not yet convicted. Should the school have reported the assault to the police? Yes. Should they also follow their own rules(including state rules) to protect themselves from litigation? Well I can't blame them for that. I would hope that she would get a warning.

I mean it's not only in schools that your forbidden to talk about sexual assaults before conviction. We should weigh the cost and benefit of allowing someone to talk about the experience before a trial. In many instances it's better to not talk about it in media of any kind because if a whole city knows about a rape how can the perpetrator get a fair trial, and if they don't have a fair trial they could easily get an appeal where they have a good chance.

Sonofadiddly:

DJjaffacake:
Um, that's not what the articles say at all. They say she faces sanctions for complaining to the Education Department that she and others like her are pressured into under-reporting sexual assault cases. She doesn't even know who the alleged rapist was.

The other stuff though, about the University dealing with sexual assault cases in house: all there, and all most certainly disgusting.

The case in question comes a month after a report of people being pressured into under-reporting sexual assault. The female student that this particular issue is about does know her rapist - he was actually her boyfriend who repeatedly verbally and sexually abused her.

This kind of this is a well documented yet widely ignored issue, and I am certainly glad, OP, that you are horrified. We should all be horrified. Whether or not the accused has been convicted is not the issue here. The point is that the school is trying to keep this woman from speaking out about her experience, which she does for personal healing AND to help prevent it from happening to other girls. The school does this to protect their image, as they are afraid that they might lose some precious tuition money if parents think their daughters will be raped if they go there.

It happens all the time. It's immensely fucked up. It makes me have a rage seizure each time I hear about it.

Reading more carefully I can see I was partially wrong. I was talking about the HuffPo article which says this:

"On March 10, 2012, Andrea Pino says she was raped at an off-campus party. [...] Today she still doesn't know who he was."

And I missed that the Yahoo article isn't about the same person, though she is mentioned in the HuffPo one. But the Yahoo one doesn't specify who the alleged attacker was. Where are you getting the boyfriend thing from? Not saying you're wrong, just so we're clear.

Actually the story looks quite weird. So she wasn't drunk or drugged or the usual, but suffered a concussion (obviously didn't feel a need to have a doctor look at it) and then conveniently forgot everything that happened? That sounds very, very convenient that memory loss occured at that time, covered the entire incident, all the details, and didn't recover after a few days like it ussually does.
On the basis of that vagueness, a request to start missing classes gets denied, she kicks up a riot about the school supposedly stepping on rape victims because she doesn't get a leave from school, while according to her own version, she has no idea whether or not she's been raped. However she did manage to get depression and post-traumatic stress disorder from events she doesn't even remember?

As part of that procedure (aside of the fact that it did overstep privacy regulations), her parents get told about the supposed rape, which should be perfectly fine and necessary to get her the support she, if it had actually happened, but that somehow upsets her and she kicks up a riot only then? Rules aside, that way of responding to the events makes no sense. It does make sense however when no rape has happened, and she's mad that her parents, who've known her long enough to notice when a real trauma has happened and can thus tell fake from real, will now be asking her about it, and observing her responses, no doubt noticing it when nothing has happened and the trauma is just an act.

Not just that, but everybody at the party managed to miss someone being raped and suffering a concussion, however she was capable of walking back to her room and resting? If you just smashed your head hard enough for a heavy concussion, you are not going anywhere. You can't even get up because your coordination and sense of balance is gone. Not just but, but a crash like that is real obvious.

That's just too much coincidence and too much contradiction for me, I don't buy it. A more likely version is she got roaring drunk at a party, injured herself as a result, woke up with blood in her bed, was embarassed, and then spun a tale in order not to appear like an awkward drunkard.


Damn it, fakers need to get separated from actual victims of sex crimes. Their hysteria about their tales not being taken at face value makes it look bad, and undermines the credibility of actual rape victims.

Why does the dean have to ask inapropriate questions to victims which greatly upset her and lead her to resign? Because of fakers who get drunk at parties, smash their heads into stuff, and then pretend to be raped in order to cover up an alcoholism problem.

Not just that, but how awkward is it to advocate a strong policy of only letting authorities handle sex crimes, with no place for school coverups, when the school can then pull down your pants by accurately stating "But we also have fakers and need to examine the facts ourselves first"?

The key word here is ALLEGED.

Innocent until proven guilty is how U.S courts work.

Until convicted, no matter how true her claims are, this behaviour qualifies as harassment and yes expulsion would sadly be a logical course of action.

Its harsh but think how many lives would be ruined if we all just went around accusing eachother of vile and (until officially recognised) unsubstantiated acts in public. Especially while both the accuser and accused are attending the same academic institution. Though it could be a positive identification of a criminal, this is not how a system of law works. People deserve to be judged by an official or jury of their peers in a court of law, not a court of public opinion. These same rules of society are there to protect the innocent from being judged unfairly. Think if it was any other crime but rape. If this was murder for instance? The problem is that rape is such a heinous crime that it is emotionally charged and therefore we cannot help and side with the apparent victim. However, if a man is innocent, can one even imagine the destruction wrought on his reputation, integrity and mental well being. I doubt it.

If there is a campaign of hushing up disgusting crimes such as this on campus that must be investigated post haste. It would be a travesty. However the girl must take her accusation through the proper channels of law enforcement not participate in this fracas.

My two cents.

Blablahb:
Actually the story looks quite weird. So she wasn't drunk or drugged or the usual, but suffered a concussion (obviously didn't feel a need to have a doctor look at it) and then conveniently forgot everything that happened? That sounds very, very convenient that memory loss occured at that time, covered the entire incident, all the details, and didn't recover after a few days like it ussually does.
On the basis of that vagueness, a request to start missing classes gets denied, she kicks up a riot about the school supposedly stepping on rape victims because she doesn't get a leave from school, while according to her own version, she has no idea whether or not she's been raped. However she did manage to get depression and post-traumatic stress disorder from events she doesn't even remember?

As part of that procedure (aside of the fact that it did overstep privacy regulations), her parents get told about the supposed rape, which should be perfectly fine and necessary to get her the support she, if it had actually happened, but that somehow upsets her and she kicks up a riot only then? Rules aside, that way of responding to the events makes no sense. It does make sense however when no rape has happened, and she's mad that her parents, who've known her long enough to notice when a real trauma has happened and can thus tell fake from real, will now be asking her about it, and observing her responses, no doubt noticing it when nothing has happened and the trauma is just an act.

Not just that, but everybody at the party managed to miss someone being raped and suffering a concussion, however she was capable of walking back to her room and resting? If you just smashed your head hard enough for a heavy concussion, you are not going anywhere. You can't even get up because your coordination and sense of balance is gone. Not just but, but a crash like that is real obvious.

That's just too much coincidence and too much contradiction for me, I don't buy it. A more likely version is she got roaring drunk at a party, injured herself as a result, woke up with blood in her bed, was embarassed, and then spun a tale in order not to appear like an awkward drunkard.


Damn it, fakers need to get separated from actual victims of sex crimes. Their hysteria about their tales not being taken at face value makes it look bad, and undermines the credibility of actual rape victims.

Why does the dean have to ask inapropriate questions to victims which greatly upset her and lead her to resign? Because of fakers who get drunk at parties, smash their heads into stuff, and then pretend to be raped in order to cover up an alcoholism problem.

Not just that, but how awkward is it to advocate a strong policy of only letting authorities handle sex crimes, with no place for school coverups, when the school can then pull down your pants by accurately stating "But we also have fakers and need to examine the facts ourselves first"?

Depending on what part of her brain was injured, and what exactly was damaged in the concussion, she may never be able to recover that information.

This may help:
http://www.webmd.com/brain/brain-hemorrhage-bleeding-causes-symptoms-treatments
http://www.tbiguide.com/memory.html
http://www.webmd.com/brain/concussion-traumatic-brain-injury-symptoms-causes-treatments
http://www.brainline.org/content/2009/11/ask-the-expert-what-happens-when-a-brain-bleeds.html

From the many brain injuries I have seen, it is not uncommon for them to permanantly lose portions of their memory, particularly short term memory, or recent events at the time of an accident or hemorrhage. The brain does heal itself, and rewires around the damaged tissue but the tissue that was damaged in that area will most likely not be returning the memory. If it was just the emotional trauma of the event, the memories will often return, however, If there was actual physical damage, that information cannot be recovered as it was lost for good if that tissue was damaged severely enough.

People have done far more than walk home with serious head injuries, They have driven, operated heavy machinery, and have been able to perform very complex tasks, not realizing how serious their injury actually is. This is why it is vital you should monitor them and not allow them to sleep immediately after a head injury, and be ready to take them in to be checked out by a physician even if it appears their head injury was not serious if you start to notice any symptoms of complication.
This may help you better understand:
http://www.mckinley.illinois.edu/handouts/head_injury/head_injury.html

Images:
Innocent until proven guilty is how U.S courts work.

Not disagreeing with anything you said before or after, but I do want to point out that this is why schools, private firms and unions love arbitration; so that the courts never gets involved and no real consequences are handed out.

Blablahb:
snip

you're conflating two completely separate incidents. read the articles again and make a note of the victims' names this time.

Images:
The key word here is ALLEGED.

Innocent until proven guilty is how U.S courts work.

Until convicted, no matter how true her claims are, this behaviour qualifies as harassment and yes expulsion would sadly be a logical course of action.

Its harsh but think how many lives would be ruined if we all just went around accusing eachother of vile and (until officially recognised) unsubstantiated acts in public. Especially while both the accuser and accused are attending the same academic institution. Though it could be a positive identification of a criminal, this is not how a system of law works. People deserve to be judged by an official or jury of their peers in a court of law, not a court of public opinion. These same rules of society are there to protect the innocent from being judged unfairly. Think if it was any other crime but rape. If this was murder for instance? The problem is that rape is such a heinous crime that it is emotionally charged and therefore we cannot help and side with the apparent victim. However, if a man is innocent, can one even imagine the destruction wrought on his reputation, integrity and mental well being. I doubt it.

If there is a campaign of hushing up disgusting crimes such as this on campus that must be investigated post haste. It would be a travesty. However the girl must take her accusation through the proper channels of law enforcement not participate in this fracas.

My two cents.

She hasn't even revealed his name publicly yet. How can anything she's done possibly be construed as harassment? Whose reputation is being destroyed here?

cobra_ky:

Blablahb:
snip

you're conflating two completely separate incidents. read the articles again and make a note of the victims' names this time.

Images:
The key word here is ALLEGED.

Innocent until proven guilty is how U.S courts work.

Until convicted, no matter how true her claims are, this behaviour qualifies as harassment and yes expulsion would sadly be a logical course of action.

Its harsh but think how many lives would be ruined if we all just went around accusing eachother of vile and (until officially recognised) unsubstantiated acts in public. Especially while both the accuser and accused are attending the same academic institution. Though it could be a positive identification of a criminal, this is not how a system of law works. People deserve to be judged by an official or jury of their peers in a court of law, not a court of public opinion. These same rules of society are there to protect the innocent from being judged unfairly. Think if it was any other crime but rape. If this was murder for instance? The problem is that rape is such a heinous crime that it is emotionally charged and therefore we cannot help and side with the apparent victim. However, if a man is innocent, can one even imagine the destruction wrought on his reputation, integrity and mental well being. I doubt it.

If there is a campaign of hushing up disgusting crimes such as this on campus that must be investigated post haste. It would be a travesty. However the girl must take her accusation through the proper channels of law enforcement not participate in this fracas.

My two cents.

She hasn't even revealed his name publicly yet. How can anything she's done possibly be construed as harassment? Whose reputation is being destroyed here?

At this moment, only her own. However, unless she simply goes to the police this is poisoning the waters. Building up support for herself as a victim (righteously or otherwise) so that if this ever goes to trial, finding an untainted jury pool will be that much harder.

It is also bringing the university into disrepute. Now maybe yes it deserves that rep, maybe it doesn't. The point is she should go through the proper channels to prosecute her attacker or those she alleges shushed her.

DJjaffacake:
Um, that's not what the articles say at all. They say she faces sanctions for complaining to the Education Department that she and others like her are pressured into under-reporting sexual assault cases. She doesn't even know who the alleged rapist was.

The other stuff though, about the University dealing with sexual assault cases in house: all there, and all most certainly disgusting.

Worth noting that in most US colleges, criminal proceedings are handled by normal law enforcement, but student discipline hearings are done in house, and held to much more lax standards of evidence (it's a Title IX violation to use any standard higher than a preponderance of the evidence for campus sexual assault hearings as of the "Dear Colleague letter", so unless he has a very good defense [note: most colleges don't let you bring a lawyer to defend you, and many instruct that accuser testimony holds fundamentally more weight than defense testimony so if it's down to he-said-she-said, he loses by default] he's going to get expelled [and his future education ruined] even if the police don't have enough to charge him with, or he's found not guilty, or what have you unless he has good positive proof of his innocence).

Literally, the victim can go through the police, the campus, or both at her choice and the campus has lower standards of proof (or else it's sex discrimination).

I didn't know he got convicted for raping her. When did it happen? (referring to the title)

They found no evidence to back her claim and therefor decided in favor of the man. If she's unhappy with the verdict then why doesnt she report him to the police?

And I actually think its a good thing that people can be expelled for ruining someone reputation.

-edit- Found a post on reddit that I find to be relevant
http://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/199q4d/rfeminism_xpost_title_girl_could_be_expelled_from/

I may be wrong and that's possible considering this is slightly confusing, but she made a complaint via the University but not the police, and now she's being reprimanded because we're talking about alleged and not a convicted rapist? If that's true then sadly she's in the wrong; you can't just go around ruining peoples reputations if they haven't been convicted, although I'm amazed she hasn't gone to police, although someone mentioned Universities love to do things in house so perhaps that's why, someone help me because I'm confused here.

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cobra_ky:

She hasn't even revealed his name publicly yet. How can anything she's done possibly be construed as harassment? Whose reputation is being destroyed here?

At this moment, only her own. However, unless she simply goes to the police this is poisoning the waters. Building up support for herself as a victim (righteously or otherwise) so that if this ever goes to trial, finding an untainted jury pool will be that much harder.

It is also bringing the university into disrepute. Now maybe yes it deserves that rep, maybe it doesn't. The point is she should go through the proper channels to prosecute her attacker or those she alleges shushed her.

Uh, she did go through the proper channels. She reported it to the school's Honor Court, and when the school completely mismanaged her case she filed a complaint with the U.S. Department of Education, which has authority over all federally-funded universities. Several media outlets have picked up the story since then because, well, it's actual news. I wouldn't worry about the jury pool too much (assuming this case ever does go to criminal court). We've managed to find untainted jury pools for cases much, much, higher in profile than this one.

Also, how can you possibly make an allegation of rape without implicitly claiming that you were, in fact, the victim?

cobra_ky:

Uh, she did go through the proper channels. She reported it to the school's Honor Court, and when the school completely mismanaged her case she filed a complaint with the U.S. Department of Education, which has authority over all federally-funded universities.

So not...THE POLICE? Ya know, the guys who are supposed to handle CRIMINAL CASES? If I got my accommodation covered in toilet paper, I take it up with the school, someone RAPES ME, I take it up with actual law. I find this behaviour bizarre.

Even IF someone decided to take up such a horrific crime with the school instead, lets just question WHY they might have slammed her claim down. There are 3 options.

1. They are inept
2. They are devious
3. They are doubtful of her claim

All 3 have equal possibility. This means that 3 is indeed a possibility and that her claim lacks any strength or evidence. In that case it is possible she is lying or unable to provide sufficient proof to bring charges. It is not necessarily a grand conspiracy.

I have no idea as to her honesty or dishonesty in the matter. None.

My only issue is the manner that she has proceeded in. Going through the university rather than standard law enforcement and then gathering a social and media based campaign after her first course of action failed rather than instead going to standard law enforcement.

Its very puzzling.

Images:

cobra_ky:

Uh, she did go through the proper channels. She reported it to the school's Honor Court, and when the school completely mismanaged her case she filed a complaint with the U.S. Department of Education, which has authority over all federally-funded universities.

So not...THE POLICE? Ya know, the guys who are supposed to handle CRIMINAL CASES? If I got my accommodation covered in toilet paper, I take it up with the school, someone RAPES ME, I take it up with actual law. I find this behaviour bizarre.

an awful lot of sexual assaults aren't reported to the police, specifically because the process is so traumatic and the burden of proof is set so high. Having never been involved with a campus sexual assault case, i can't really speak to how the system works, but universities can take action and remedy cases outside of the legal system. (say, by expelling students for violating a code of conduct, or changing living arrangements, or providing students with a campus police escort, or what have you.) reporting it through the university is not a replacement for the criminal justice system, it is a separate means intended to meet students' needs, not enforce the law necessarily. (though i think in some cases university staff could also support a student in seeking medical treatment or filing criminal charges, if need be.)

Images:
Even IF someone decided to take up such a horrific crime with the school instead, lets just question WHY they might have slammed her claim down. There are 3 options.

1. They are inept
2. They are devious
3. They are doubtful of her claim

All 3 have equal possibility. This means that 3 is indeed a possibility and that her claim lacks any strength or evidence. In that case it is possible she is lying or unable to provide sufficient proof to bring charges. It is not necessarily a grand conspiracy.

I have no idea as to her honesty or dishonesty in the matter. None.

Based on her claims of what happened in her Honor Court hearing, it would seem that #1 was certainly true along with some combination of #2 and #3. She claims the Court asked inappropriate and misleading questions in an effort to discredit her claim. Others, including the former assistant dean of students, have corroborated with similar tales of University staff discouraging reports of sexual assault. Sadly, this is far from an isolated incident at UNC.

Images:
My only issue is the manner that she has proceeded in. Going through the university rather than standard law enforcement and then gathering a social and media based campaign after her first course of action failed rather than instead going to standard law enforcement.

Its very puzzling.

I'm confused. At first you were concerned about the reputation of the accused rapist, but you also want the alleged victim to go to the police? You do realize that that would require her to name the accused, and that an arrest would likely result. That would be a lot more damaging, and i assure the court of public opinion would be no less fierce. (see the Duke Lacrosse case) At least this way, the accused student still has the protection of anonymity, (another advantage of pursuing the case through the university, and not the criminal justice system, at least initially.)

cobra_ky:

an awful lot of sexual assaults aren't reported to the police, specifically because the process is so traumatic and the burden of proof is set so high. Having never been involved with a campus sexual assault case, i can't really speak to how the system works, but universities can take action and remedy cases outside of the legal system. (say, by expelling students for violating a code of conduct, or changing living arrangements, or providing students with a campus police escort, or what have you.) reporting it through the university is not a replacement for the criminal justice system, it is a separate means intended to meet students' needs, not enforce the law necessarily. (though i think in some cases university staff could also support a student in seeking medical treatment or filing criminal charges, if need be.)

So in short...instead of speaking about a traumatic VIOLENT CRIME with the proper authorities because its too difficult one speaks with a completely different group of people who don't have the same legal powers, ability to collect evidence or ways to detain said suspect?

Based on her claims of what happened

Thats the issue, until charges are properly pressed, everything about this has been claims by one individual. Claims that cannot be backed up.

Others, including the former assistant dean of students, have corroborated with similar tales of University staff discouraging reports of sexual assault. Sadly, this is far from an isolated incident at UNC.

It would take A LOT of discouragement to get me to forget about calling the cops on a RAPE.

I'm confused. At first you were concerned about the reputation of the accused rapist, but you also want the alleged victim to go to the police? You do realize that that would require her to name the accused, and that an arrest would likely result.

But he'd be under arrest though right? WHY hasn't the supposed victim done this yet? Why the campaign INSTEAD? Thats my issue. I think 'concern' was a little strong, hell the guy could be a scumbag, he might not. Not a clue. Perhaps his name will get 'leaked anonymously' very soon. I don't know. I just find it peculiar that someone would do all this sideshow without pressing criminal charges. The only ideas I have would be if the eventual end game was to get him in civil court instead where evidential criteria is a lot looser and emotion weighs a lot heavier ORRRR if this is an attempt to get this guy kicked out of college and since the first round didn't work, this protest is supposed to make the university more flexible to that idea under public scrutiny. If the event was too traumatic to speak of, why the 3 act circus instead of justice?

It just doesn't make sense!

The one thing that really amuses me is that most of the users on this board are agnostic/atheist because they claim there is no evidence that confirms the existence of God except for verbal and written words.

But the moment someone claims rape with no evidence except their word, suddenly everyone rushes to their defense. Because nobody has ever lied about something like that before.

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It just doesn't make sense!

That's the only thing I can conclude myself...was she raped? Well, we don't know. If she was, and talked to the "honor court", and the allegations seemed genuine, then the first thing that the "honor court" should do is contact the cops about it.

Until the legal proceedings go the way they need to go, we can only speculate. And there's also this:

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If the event was too traumatic to speak of, why the 3 act circus instead of justice?

Indeed. I do not buy the "traumatic experience, difficult to talk about" shtick for a second in this particular case. Because she doesn't seem like she doesn't want to talk about it. So why not talk to those who are, you know, legally empowered to catch the rapists?

As I said, I'm also of the opinion that the university should be contacting the law enforcement about it, if nobody else.

The hell if I know what happened there, so jumping to conclusions isn't going to do me any favors, but seriously, it seems to me as if someone involved in the story is deliberately keeping it unclear, I just can't put my finger on who; could be false allegations, could be attempts at cover-up, could be all kinds of hijinks behind the scenes...

What happened until innocent until proven guilty?

Hell what happened to the legitimate court systems?

Honour court? Has anybody even made this the police's business?

It seems to me like it's being handled badly by all parties.

Kopikatsu:
The one thing that really amuses me is that most of the users on this board are agnostic/atheist because they claim there is no evidence that confirms the existence of God except for verbal and written words.

But the moment someone claims rape with no evidence except their word, suddenly everyone rushes to their defense. Because nobody has ever lied about something like that before.

Actually reading through this thread the majority seem unwilling to accept this "case" at face value. I'm quite pleased that most people are approaching this rationally.

Sure there are some who are taking the story as fact based on the emotional reaction, but so far they seem to be in the minority.

Public involvement in court related disputes is a huge affront to justice.

cobra_ky:

Uh, she did go through the proper channels. She reported it to the school's Honor Court, and when the school completely mismanaged her case she filed a complaint with the U.S. Department of Education, which has authority over all federally-funded universities.

It's worth noting that "federally-funded" literally means receiving any money that came from the federal government. Literally, if you have a single student who got a federal student loan and used it to go to your university, it's "federally funded". There was a judgment to that effect that was used to increase the coverage of Title IX (wonderful piece of legislation that is IMO frequently poorly executed) beyond schools that received grants or other direct funding from the federal government.

cobra_ky:

an awful lot of sexual assaults aren't reported to the police, specifically because the process is so traumatic and the burden of proof is set so high.

So...the problem is that a crime has to be proven to be punished? How would you propose it work, should we just assume accusation=guilt, or maybe only in cases where the defendant can't prove positively that it was impossible for him to have committed the crime? Unless you are all for locking up a substantial number of innocent people (before you bring out the lower end of the numbers of "false accusations" of rape, let me point out that those studies define "false accusation" in a fashion that is entirely different than what most people outside of studies of the topic mean, and that an accusation being a "false accusation" actually has nothing at all to do with who is being accused -- for example Louis Gonzales III wasn't "falsely accused" despite being accused of a rape that is physically impossible for him to have committed, even after allowing the "victim" to revise her story in light of her original story being impossible).

cobra_ky:
Having never been involved with a campus sexual assault case, i can't really speak to how the system works, but universities can take action and remedy cases outside of the legal system. (say, by expelling students for violating a code of conduct, or changing living arrangements, or providing students with a campus police escort, or what have you.) reporting it through the university is not a replacement for the criminal justice system, it is a separate means intended to meet students' needs, not enforce the law necessarily. (though i think in some cases university staff could also support a student in seeking medical treatment or filing criminal charges, if need be.)

Sounds about right. University "honor courts" and the like are not approached INSTEAD of the police, but can be approached IN ADDITION TO the police, and have a much lower standard of evidence (it's a Title IX violation to hold campus sexual assault proceedings to a higher standard of evidence than a preponderance of the evidence because to do so has been deemed discrimination with respect to sex).

cobra_ky:
She claims the Court asked inappropriate and misleading questions in an effort to discredit her claim.

I wonder what kind of questions those are? Is the Court not supposed to question the veracity of testimony put before it? Or are we suppose to take accuser evidence at face value without question, and question the veracity of the defense only?

Because if we aren't supposed to question the veracity of accusations, people like http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/9894588/Compulsive-liar-jailed-after-11-false-rape-claims-in-decade.html can do a lot of damage (11 false accusations in under a decade, wasn't even charged for it until #10, getting 16 months for #11).

Images:

But he'd be under arrest though right? WHY hasn't the supposed victim done this yet? Why the campaign INSTEAD? Thats my issue.

That's actually a really good question too. Makes me a bit suspicious.

Images:
I just find it peculiar that someone would do all this sideshow without pressing criminal charges. The only ideas I have would be if the eventual end game was to get him in civil court instead where evidential criteria is a lot looser

Evidence requirements are even looser in university "honor courts", since it is sex discrimination to set the standard higher than a preponderance of the evidence in the US.

Images:
and emotion weighs a lot heavier ORRRR if this is an attempt to get this guy kicked out of college and since the first round didn't work, this protest is supposed to make the university more flexible to that idea under public scrutiny.

The suspicious part of me suspects exactly this.

Images:
If the event was too traumatic to speak of, why the 3 act circus instead of justice?

...which is the other really, really good question. Probably because he can't defend himself in the media circus (not least of which is because the best possible result for him is not being mentioned by name).

Kopikatsu:
The one thing that really amuses me is that most of the users on this board are agnostic/atheist because they claim there is no evidence that confirms the existence of God except for verbal and written words.

But the moment someone claims rape with no evidence except their word, suddenly everyone rushes to their defense. Because nobody has ever lied about something like that before.

Throwing god in this? Really? I mean I know youtube comment sections almost always derail into religious or political arguments, but you want to do that here now too? Go away please.

Anyway, it's not that easy for most rape victims to just go to the police. You can say 'I would have done so!' all you want, but unless you've been in that situation yourself you don't know. Rape can be very traumatic in many ways, which can prevent victims from seeking help. It's often not that easy to 'just go to the police'.

That being said, unless this case actually goes to court, and the accused guy is convicted, we're all just guessing here. Yes the UNC seems to love covering up rape cases and such, but so far all this particular case has is the accusations of one girl.

sanquin:

Kopikatsu:
The one thing that really amuses me is that most of the users on this board are agnostic/atheist because they claim there is no evidence that confirms the existence of God except for verbal and written words.

But the moment someone claims rape with no evidence except their word, suddenly everyone rushes to their defense. Because nobody has ever lied about something like that before.

Throwing god in this? Really? I mean I know youtube comment sections almost always derail into religious or political arguments, but you want to do that here now too? Go away please.

Anyway, it's not that easy for most rape victims to just go to the police. You can say 'I would have done so!' all you want, but unless you've been in that situation yourself you don't know. Rape can be very traumatic in many ways, which can prevent victims from seeking help. It's often not that easy to 'just go to the police'.

That being said, unless this case actually goes to court, and the accused guy is convicted, we're all just guessing here. Yes the UNC seems to love covering up rape cases and such, but so far all this particular case has is the accusations of one girl.

Who brought God/religion into it? I said people say they're atheist/agnostic here because there is no evidence to believe otherwise. In this case, there is no evidence that she was raped. At all. So obviously the default belief should be that she wasn't raped. If she can produce evidence of the claim, then great. But until she does, then her claims should be treated like they have no validity. Because they don't.

Kopikatsu:
The one thing that really amuses me is that most of the users on this board are agnostic/atheist because they claim there is no evidence that confirms the existence of God except for verbal and written words.

That right there is bringing god/religion into it. And as said before, most people in this thread say they can't be sure until the case is looked into a bit further. So your comment makes even less sense.

sanquin:

Kopikatsu:
The one thing that really amuses me is that most of the users on this board are agnostic/atheist because they claim there is no evidence that confirms the existence of God except for verbal and written words.

But the moment someone claims rape with no evidence except their word, suddenly everyone rushes to their defense. Because nobody has ever lied about something like that before.

Throwing god in this? Really? I mean I know youtube comment sections almost always derail into religious or political arguments, but you want to do that here now too? Go away please.

Anyway, it's not that easy for most rape victims to just go to the police. You can say 'I would have done so!' all you want, but unless you've been in that situation yourself you don't know. Rape can be very traumatic in many ways, which can prevent victims from seeking help. It's often not that easy to 'just go to the police'.

That being said, unless this case actually goes to court, and the accused guy is convicted, we're all just guessing here. Yes the UNC seems to love covering up rape cases and such, but so far all this particular case has is the accusations of one girl.

The, "It's a traumatic experience and very difficult to talk about," argument kind of takes a hit in this case because she is evidently fine with announcing to the world that she was raped.

DJjaffacake:
The, "It's a traumatic experience and very difficult to talk about," argument kind of takes a hit in this case because she is evidently fine with announcing to the world that she was raped.

Does it say anywhere in the article that -she- was the one that came out to the media with the story then?

sanquin:

DJjaffacake:
The, "It's a traumatic experience and very difficult to talk about," argument kind of takes a hit in this case because she is evidently fine with announcing to the world that she was raped.

Does it say anywhere in the article that -she- was the one that came out to the media with the story then?

She told the paper the case was dismissed by the Honor Court, which is why she decided to go public.

Landen Gambill certainly did. It's not as clear with the other women, though the ones quoted must have talked to someone about it.

DJjaffacake:
Landen Gambill certainly did. It's not as clear with the other women, though the ones quoted must have talked to someone about it.

I stand corrected on the 'too scared to tell the police' thing then.

DJjaffacake:

Sonofadiddly:

DJjaffacake:
Um, that's not what the articles say at all. They say she faces sanctions for complaining to the Education Department that she and others like her are pressured into under-reporting sexual assault cases. She doesn't even know who the alleged rapist was.

The other stuff though, about the University dealing with sexual assault cases in house: all there, and all most certainly disgusting.

The case in question comes a month after a report of people being pressured into under-reporting sexual assault. The female student that this particular issue is about does know her rapist - he was actually her boyfriend who repeatedly verbally and sexually abused her.

This kind of this is a well documented yet widely ignored issue, and I am certainly glad, OP, that you are horrified. We should all be horrified. Whether or not the accused has been convicted is not the issue here. The point is that the school is trying to keep this woman from speaking out about her experience, which she does for personal healing AND to help prevent it from happening to other girls. The school does this to protect their image, as they are afraid that they might lose some precious tuition money if parents think their daughters will be raped if they go there.

It happens all the time. It's immensely fucked up. It makes me have a rage seizure each time I hear about it.

Reading more carefully I can see I was partially wrong. I was talking about the HuffPo article which says this:

"On March 10, 2012, Andrea Pino says she was raped at an off-campus party. [...] Today she still doesn't know who he was."

And I missed that the Yahoo article isn't about the same person, though she is mentioned in the HuffPo one. But the Yahoo one doesn't specify who the alleged attacker was. Where are you getting the boyfriend thing from? Not saying you're wrong, just so we're clear.

Sorry this took so long. Feminist exhaustion, it's a thing.

The issue is related to this case:

http://www.dailytarheel.com/article/2013/01/5-submit-complaint-against-unc-over-sexual-assault

 

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