Should public schools officially recognize a student's gender identity?

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I...have a hard time caring about this, to be honest. On the one hand, it's a women's bathroom. Only stalls, no one is ever going to see anything. On the other hand, I'm not convinced that the bathrooms are separated by gender rather than sex.

In the end, uni-sex bathrooms. I'm assuming the separation of bathrooms has to do with our taboo and embarrassment over sex and anything related to it, ie our sexual organs. Piss and shit flying around are not conducive to a sexual environment(usually...), so I don't think we should worry about it.

generals3:

Oh great a device that is probably almost never used and probably came after urinals makes it easier for women to pee standing up. That couldn't be any more irrelevant to the fact toilets were obviously segregated according to sex.

Oh great, rampant speculation out of convenience.

Besides which, I'm not sure you meant to quote me, since I wasn't the one who raised STP devices.

As ridiculous as I think your point is (especially since urinals actually have little to do with the invention of the STP device), it might be better served if you aimed it at the person who was bringing it up as a counter.

Girls openly change in the girls restroom, not only in the stalls. Much goes on in the restrooms other than just " using it quickly and leaving". Yes, girls are social in there and discuss things like bras and panties and we do show one another frequently, and yes touch other breasts. In the girls bathroom at school, it was not uncommon to see a girl naked, or for girls to be peeing with the doors open and having a conversation during the process.

I have also heard many stories of hazing and such occuring in the males restroom, so I would imagine it could potentially not only be an awkward but also a hostile, even dangerous environment for a boy who identifies as a girl. Honestly in this day and time they should be required to have an alternative to only "boys and girls bathrooms" either allow the student to use the disabled bathroom, or one of the teachers single stall bathrooms where you can lock the door without the risks of looking up with a cell phone cam over her stall, or someones head that pops in underneath for her own privacy and safety. I think that would be the best approach if she is uncomfortable in the boys bathroom, for all students involved. There is no such thing as "privacy" in the students bathrooms.Most of the damn time the locks on the stalls are broken anyhow.

For those who think " no one is going to see anything" Have you even been in American schools?! Everyone sees everything, and half the damn time, gets it on film, so the whole damn world can see it too. Naked pics of people were found in the library books on a regular basis.

Lil devils x:
Girls openly change in the girls restroom, not only in the stalls. Much goes on in the restrooms other than just " using it quickly and leaving". Yes, girls are social in there and discuss things like bras and panties and we do show one another frequently, and yes touch other breasts.

We do? D:

Well now I just feel excluded.

boots:

Lil devils x:
Girls openly change in the girls restroom, not only in the stalls. Much goes on in the restrooms other than just " using it quickly and leaving". Yes, girls are social in there and discuss things like bras and panties and we do show one another frequently, and yes touch other breasts.

We do? D:

Well now I just feel excluded.

Yes, we do. Maybe you chose not to, but yes many of us do. Also with the weather changes here, you had to change from morning clothes to afternoon clothes or you would freeze in the morning and sweat your ass off by afternoons so most girls here bring a change of clothes just for that reason, and do not like changing in the stalls because of the toilets being in there, and no counter to put your clothes on. And yes, I would think you in the minority if you never saw or touched another girls breast in school. LOL

Lil devils x:

Yes, we do. Maybe you chose not to, but yes many of us do. Also with the weather changes here, you had to change from morning clothes to afternoon clothes or you would freeze in the morning and sweat your ass off by afternoons so most girls here bring a change of clothes just for that reason, and do not like changing in the stalls because of the toilets being in there, and no counter to put your clothes on. And yes, I would think you in the minority if you never saw or touched another girls breast in school. LOL

Oookay ... but there is a reason that they're called "toilets" and not changing rooms/coffee lounges/breast-groping facilities. I'm sure you can get up to all kinds of stuff in a public toilet (according to the rumours when I was at university, there was always a light dusting of cocaine on all the surfaces), but that doesn't change their designated use, and "because I want to talk about panties" is not really a valid reason to force other women to use the men's toilets instead, dismissing their gender identity entirely.

Seriously, is your argument that transgendered women shouldn't be allowed to use women's toilets because you might feel awkward having them there when another cisgendered woman is feeling up your breasts? In ... the toilet. Look, if you're really that freaked out by the thought of a transgendered person overhearing your bra-and-panties conversation or accidentally catching a glimpse of the gropefest, maybe you could just wait for them to leave before you get on with it. It's not like transgendered people are common enough that you're going to have a steady stream of them going in and out.

Even if you decide to conflate toilets and changing rooms, you still have to explain why you would feel awkward having a transgendered woman there but not a cisgendered lesbian, or a bisexual. If it really freaks you out that much then just suck it up and change in the stall, or wait for them to leave.

Since he's physically a boy I'd say he should use the boy's bathroom. If he decides to get a sex change then he can use the women's restroom.

boots:

Lil devils x:

Yes, we do. Maybe you chose not to, but yes many of us do. Also with the weather changes here, you had to change from morning clothes to afternoon clothes or you would freeze in the morning and sweat your ass off by afternoons so most girls here bring a change of clothes just for that reason, and do not like changing in the stalls because of the toilets being in there, and no counter to put your clothes on. And yes, I would think you in the minority if you never saw or touched another girls breast in school. LOL

Oookay ... but there is a reason that they're called "toilets" and not changing rooms/coffee lounges/breast-groping facilities. I'm sure you can get up to all kinds of stuff in a public toilet (according to the rumours when I was at university, there was always a light dusting of cocaine on all the surfaces), but that doesn't change their designated use, and "because I want to talk about panties" is not really a valid reason to force other women to use the men's toilets instead, dismissing their gender identity entirely.

Seriously, is your argument that transgendered women shouldn't be allowed to use women's toilets because you might feel awkward having them there when another cisgendered woman is feeling up your breasts? In ... the toilet. Look, if you're really that freaked out by the thought of a transgendered person overhearing your bra-and-panties conversation or accidentally catching a glimpse of the gropefest, maybe you could just wait for them to leave before you get on with it. It's not like transgendered people are common enough that you're going to have a steady stream of them going in and out.

Even if you decide to conflate toilets and changing rooms, you still have to explain why you would feel awkward having a transgendered woman there but not a cisgendered lesbian, or a bisexual. If it really freaks you out that much then just suck it up and change in the stall, or wait for them to leave.

Not sure what your bathrooms at your school were designated for, but ours were designated as where we change, do our makeup, hair, and they even added extra electrical outlets installed because girls were complaining they did not have enough for our hot irons and hair dryers. At our school we were required to take showers as well from the age of 12 up every day after Gym.

The idea that we can control the bahvior in a restroom, unless you have a bathroom attendant in all restrooms at all times is not a reality. the reality is we are dealing with teenagers pumped full of Hormones because they are going through puberty. Yes, people masturbate in the bathrooms, and that should be considered to be a perfectly natural behavior for one going through Puberty. Yes, everything from discussing tampons, cramps, breast tenderness, makeup, vibrators to comparing the newest victoria secret bras and Hot topic thongs does go on in there because that is considerd the "girls only zone" where girls do not have to concern themselves with Pubescent Boys behaving immaturely making fun of them. You should remember here that we are discussing pubescent girls here who are not used to having periods and growing breasts all going through this together. We were taught how to do self breast exams in health class and girls that age overreact to everything. the first time I felt another girls boob, I was not " feeling her up" she was scared she had a lump and wanted to see if I felt it too. I am surprised that you do not remember these things that all of us went though. Girls being stuck in the bathroom because the tampon dispenser being out and asking others to run to the nurse for her. That is the reality of the girls bathrooms, because well we are girls. That is why they have " girls only restrooms" to begin with. The fact is that boy, even though he feels like he is a girl will be forced to experience a male puberty, not a female puberty, he will not be growing breasts, having a menstrual cycle, dealing with teenage pregnancy or any of the other issues the rest of the girls in the bathroom are dealing with and discuss there. Even when a female student wanted to discuss such sensitive issues with a teacher, the teacher would go into the bathroom with her to discuss these things out of earshot of male students who do not understand these issues.

If female students are not comfortable with having males in their private facilities, you should not force them to be.
The school is opening themselves up to all kinds of lawsuits by allowing a male, even if he identifies as a girl, into the girls restroom due to what actually does occur in the bathrooms, and what would there be in place to stop any heterosexual male from putting on a dress just to get some peeks at the girls? We had that happen in school even though though Lance was very much "male" in gender. He only through the dress from the drama department on for a few minutes and a wig and tried to walk in only to get grabbed by a teacher and dragged back out when the girls all started yelling at him, but you will also have the guys who think this behavior is funny and will do it for laughs regardless. By saying " he can go in there, but I cannot" is setting a doublestandard and would be very difficult to regulate.

We already had issues of people actually having sex in the girls showers on many occasions, and that in itself was hard enough to regulate, but by opening the doors to openly allow males into the female areas, this would become an even more serious problem.

You are mistaken about the designated uses for the restrooms in public schools in the US, some of our restrooms also serve as the shower facilities as well here. As for me, I honestly could care less if I (personally) share anything with a transgendered person, but it isn't about me, it is about all persons involved. Just because I am okay with having anyone see me naked, I don't think it is my place to make that decision for anyone else. My sister on the other hand, was terrified of even peeing in the same room with anyone else. To each their own, I would not force anything on anyone as that would not be right either.

How is forcing a transgendered girl to use a boy's bathroom any less awkward than forcing them to use a girl's bathroom (since, this may just be based on stereotypes, girls are on average more accepting of transgendered girls than boys)?

If parents complain, then that's their problem. They have no right to complain, or force someone to use a different bathroom due to some irrational fear. Although I guess this entire problem would be solved if they just established unisex bathrooms for everyone (I don't know why male bathrooms even need urinals anymore, since guys can use stalls just like girls. Only difference is whether or not they stand up). I have that in my school. Just cubicles for everyone. That would even encompass intersex students, no matter how much of a minority they are. Or maybe she could just use the unisex bathroom and/or disabled bathroom. As for locker rooms...that's a bit more of a grey area. Private room, maybe? Kids can be mean in that situation.

It's common courtesy, as well as ignoring a student's needs or beliefs, to address a transgendered student by the gender they identify as rather than their sex. They're already letting her dress like a girl and have purple hair, so that's fine. If her passport and state-issued identification recognizes her as female and everything, then she's female. She just happens to have a penis, who no other girls will even ever see if girls' bathrooms have all stalls without urinals anyway.

Tanner The Monotone:
My question is why a first grader is considered mature enough to even have a gender identity.

Because both cisgendered and transgendered people seem to understand the differences between male and female by the age of three or something. I know I did. When I was in nursery, I had a girlfriend, even though we were just messing around. I had mostly male friends. I didn't like being paired together with girls in classes, because of the "cooties". I didn't like it when my mum took me to female bathrooms because I was too young to go into male bathrooms myself. I think some people forget or underestimate children's perceptions of themselves and the wider world, trying to wrap them in cotton wool from stuff like sex and violence - things that they will be exposed to whether you like it or not.

A child clearly knows the difference between just liking to dress up as a girl and thinking that they're a girl to the point of experiencing stress or anxiety towards being considered anything different.

Lil devils x:

snip

OK, thank you very much for the Judy Blume novel. I happen to remember what puberty was like. I also remember that puberty did not happen exclusively in the school toilets. It's not like this is the only forum in which girls can talk about "girl things", and none of the things you mention explain why you would be uncomfortable sharing a bathroom with a girl who does not menstruate or have breasts.

Your continued insistence that transgendered girls are not real girls and will never belong in a feminine environment just because they don't get periods (I guess we should exclude all girls with amenorrhea as well) is ignorant and borderline transphobic. The fact that you can't understand the difference between medically diagnosed transgendered people and "this guy in my class who decided to wear a dress one day for a laugh" suggests that you really need to do some reading before you make bold claims about what does and does not constitute gender. You don't even need to go very far, since all the information has already been posted in this thread.

How about this. If you would be totally happy with being barred from the girl's toilets and forced to use the boy's instead, no matter how many times you protested about feeling uncomfortable and out of place there, then fine. But if you wouldn't be happy with that then I don't see why you would force it on any other girl.

Relish in Chaos:
How is forcing a transgendered girl to use a boy's bathroom any less awkward than forcing them to use a girl's bathroom (since, this may just be based on stereotypes, girls are on average more accepting of transgendered girls than boys)?

Allow me to rephrase this question for you.

"How is forcing a girl to use a boy's bathroom any less awkward than forcing them to use a girl's bathroom?"

Do you see why it might be a bit of a problem?

I feel like giving up on this thread. So many people here are stuck in the mentality of "OK, transgendered girls are girls, but they're not really girls, are they? Not in any way that matters or should be accepted." It's starting to feel a bit pointless trying to educate people who have zero interest in learning, and who just want transgendered people to go away and stop all this "my gender doesn't match my sex" silliness.

Wow guys, I'm so sorry that someone else's gender dysphoria is confusing or uncomfortable for you.

boots:

cthulhuspawn82:

The problem with the video is that he says that gender identity is which gender you identify with, man or woman. But he doesn't define what a man or a woman is. I think he simply assumed we all knew what a man and a woman are. But according to people like you and boots, "Woman" is an unintelligible concept. "Woman", according to your arguing, can not be defined by any physical, mental, social, or emotional attribute or set of attributes.

You know what is a useful thing to do before trying to argue a point? A Google search.

The concept of "a woman's brain in a man's body" isn't just a vague New Age idea or an intellectual deconstruction. We know that the brain structure of females is different from that of males. Studies of transgendered people have shown them to have a male-typical brain structure in a female body or vice versa, meaning that there is a neuropsychological explanation for the condition.

Here's a New Scientist article on one of the more recent studies.

However, it doesn't make sense to talk about the brain in the same terms that we talk about the reproductive organs, because the brain is not a reproductive organ (all quips aside). Our brains do not make babies, but they do govern just about every microscopic aspect of how we think and how we view ourselves including - guess what - our gender identity. So our brains are not sexed, but they are gendered.

How are our brains gendered? Lots of different ways. I'm fairly sure that we don't have a genetically inherited neuron cluster for "liking Oprah" or "playing football" or any other of the many arbitrary ways that society attempts to divide gendered behaviour along a strict divide that doesn't exist. It wouldn't be disingenuous to assume, however, that a person with a certain brain structure would be capable of identifying themselves as part of a group that has the same brain structure, and to therefore say with certainty, "I am a man" or "I am a woman".

Yes, gender is a socially constructed concept. So is murder, but it doesn't make the corpse with fifty stab wounds any less real.

This really helps me to see the problem with your position. The problem is due to faulty terminology, and I am shocked to think that any scientist would use such faulty terminology.

We notice two distinct types of brain structures in human beings. We notice that one type is predominately found in males and feels more comfortable in the male body, and we notice the other type of brain is predominately found in females and is more comfortable in a female body. Because of this, you start calling the first type of brain the "male" brain and the second type of brain the "female" brain. This is false terminology that leads to the problem.

If we were to instead call these two brain structures something unassociated with gender, such as "type 1" and "type 2" the truth is easier to see. Being a male with a type 2 brain wouldn't turn you into a woman, and allow you to use the womens locker room and apply for female scholarships. Being a male with a type 2 brain would simply make you a male with a type 2 brain, not a female, not a woman, and not on the female side of any segregating line that our society draws.

This is a classic example of applying multiple meanings to a word in order to confuse people. Using the terms Man and Woman interchangeably to refer to two different concepts (i.e. gender and sex) is a horrid use of language meant to confuse and muddle the issue. I would be like the Cheshire cat trying to toy with us by interchangeably using the word "mad" to refer to both insanity and anger in the context of a single conversation.

cthulhuspawn82:

This really helps me to see the problem with your position. The problem is due to faulty terminology, and I am shocked to think that any scientist would use such faulty terminology.

I'm not a scientist, I'm just capable of reading and have this annoying little obsession with wanting to know about something before I form an opinion on it. But anyway, fuck those scientists and their so-called "degrees" and "fields of research". Random Dude On The Internet #12983 has this theory about "type 1" and "type 2" brains.

We notice two distinct types of brain structures in human beings. We notice that one type is predominately found in males and feels more comfortable in the male body, and we notice the other type of brain is predominately found in females and is more comfortable in a female body. Because of this, you start calling the first type of brain the "male" brain and the second type of brain the "female" brain. This is false terminology that leads to the problem.

Nooo, I only called them male and female at first (try reading all the way to the end of posts before you respond to them, it can be pretty enlightening). I then went on to specify that it's misleading to use sexed terms since brains are not sexed, but gendered. So it would be more accurate to refer to the two brain structures as "man" and "woman" or "masculine" and feminine".

If we were to instead call these two brain structures something unassociated with gender, such as "type 1" and "type 2" the truth is easier to see. Being a male with a type 2 brain wouldn't turn you into a woman, and allow you to use the womens locker room and apply for female scholarships. Being a male with a type 2 brain would simply make you a male with a type 2 brain, not a female, not a woman, and not on the female side of any segregating line that our society draws.

This is a classic example of applying multiple meanings to a word in order to confuse people. Using the terms Man and Woman interchangeably to refer to two different concepts (i.e. gender and sex) is a horrid use of language meant to confuse and muddle the issue. I would be like the Cheshire cat trying to toy with us by interchangeably using the word "mad" to refer to both insanity and anger in the context of a single conversation.

Look, you claimed to know the difference between sex and gender and I took your word for it, something I was clearly mistaken in doing. So let me try to spell it out for you: we do not use man and woman to refer interchangeably to two different concepts. We use these terms to refer to a single concept - the concept of gender.

Like this:

Man/Woman = Gender
Male/Female = Sex

Brain = Gender
Genitals = Sex.

Does that clear up the confusion?

Lil devils x:
The fact is that boy, even though he feels like he is a girl will be forced to experience a male puberty, not a female puberty, he will not be growing breasts, having a menstrual cycle, dealing with teenage pregnancy or any of the other issues the rest of the girls in the bathroom are dealing with and discuss there.

And here you make a fundamental flaw that pretty much undercuts your argument.
First of all you assume that she's a boy because she has a penis and that because she is a boy she will never understand girl issues.
Secondly you assume that she will be forced to experience male puberty. The current standards of care (though they may vary from place to place) prescribe that transgender kids should have their puberty delayed until they are considered old enough to make a 'final' decision (this is usually around age 15-16). After that they can start taking opposite sex hormones which will put them through their desired puberty. At no point would an adolescent boy, raging with their male hormones, be in the girls bathroom.

So once she would start on these hormones she will begin to develop breast, but she won't start menstruating. before arguing that therefor she shouldn't be included, ask yourself if you would also exclude cis girls who, for whatever reason, had their uterus and/or ovaries removed. This is actually a possible viewpoint if you want view things from a transgender perspective, as a member of their identified gender who lost their genitals. Ask yourself how you would approach such a person and start from that perspective.
Obviously the fact that they are missing part of this growing up into a woman is a big issue and very difficult for some, if not many, trans women. But excluding them from the social aspects makes it even worse, because now she doesn't only have to suffer from an abnormal puberty, she basically gets told that because of that she is not a real woman, that she is a freak.

Puberty is already difficult when it's a normal. So on top of the problems from an abnormal puberty you would heap social exclusion? I don't see how anyone can argue for such a position.

boots:

Lil devils x:

snip

OK, thank you very much for the Judy Blume novel. I happen to remember what puberty was like. I also remember that puberty did not happen exclusively in the school toilets. It's not like this is the only forum in which girls can talk about "girl things", and none of the things you mention explain why you would be uncomfortable sharing a bathroom with a girl who does not menstruate or have breasts.

Your continued insistence that transgendered girls are not real girls and will never belong in a feminine environment just because they don't get periods (I guess we should exclude all girls with amenorrhea as well) is ignorant and borderline transphobic. The fact that you can't understand the difference between medically diagnosed transgendered people and "this guy in my class who decided to wear a dress one day for a laugh" suggests that you really need to do some reading before you make bold claims about what does and does not constitute gender. You don't even need to go very far, since all the information has already been posted in this thread.

How about this. If you would be totally happy with being barred from the girl's toilets and forced to use the boy's instead, no matter how many times you protested about feeling uncomfortable and out of place there, then fine. But if you wouldn't be happy with that then I don't see why you would force it on any other girl.

No matter who she is on the inside does not change what she is on the outside, and that has to be addressed as well here. There are other males who are female spirit, but choose not to dress as female as well, but they would not be granted permission to go into the female facilities as well. Her dress is not the problem here, it is she is physically a male, and will not be experiencing female Puberty, instead will be dealing male puberty issues instead. I do not have a problem accepting who she is, I have a problem trying to force others. In my tribes culture, Transgendered, Homosexuals, bisexuals are considered to be "two spirited" and considered Highly gifted and hold a high position in our society. I find your idea that I am biased against them strange, because I am not. The problems arise when you try to force others to conform to what you feel they should be rather than allow them to choose for themselves. Just because I am not uncomfortable with a female spirit in a male body seeing me naked or openly discussing what are considered to be personal issues with males or females, does not enti8tle me to force my beliefs on to everyone else. Each person should decide these things for themselves. I understand their religions have different interactions with males and female than my own, and I feel everyone is deserving of respect here, including the gifted, but the gifted must also be considerate of others beliefs as well. This works both ways.

You have misunderstood what I have said, I fully understand the difference between a heterosexual male pretending to be a girl and a female born into a physically male body. I think you misunderstand that the majority of transgendered never receive a medical diagnosis, nor should they be forced to, and that the majority of transgendered males dress do not dress in female attire all of the time. That again would be focing them into doing somehting against their will to be able to use a facility they are comfortable with. No one here should be forced to change anythi8ng except for the school in providing access to students who require access to a single occupant restroom. There are other students with issues, not just the transgendered who require access to a sinlge occupant restroom, and the schools are also already equipped with single occupant restrooms, just they are usually reserved for teh staff. If a student requests to use one rather than the one designated to them by their sex, they should be given permission to do so, for their own privacy and safety.

If you had actually read my first post on this thread, I stated quite clearly not only would it be awkward for a transgendered person to use a male facility, it could be considered dangerous to do so considering what I have heard already occurs in there as it is when dealing with Pubescent males and the school should be held liable if they forced the student to do so. Instead, they should have accomodations for those, not just transgendered, who require use of a single occupant facility.

If your child fully functionally thought they were a fish how far would you go to facilitate their choice of lifestyle?

Would you let them drown themselves?

Can any of you on the side of child guarantee nothing untoward will occur? Who would be at fault if something did? The parents, the school, society at large? Certainly not the children since we don't let them take responsibility for their actions. Oh but thats right we are all about escaping or denial of responsibility for causing foreseeable situations.

Lil devils x:
snip

But now you're arguing that transgendered people shouldn't be allowed in the boys or the girls toilets, but should have to use separate facilities entirely, as though they're somehow disabled. Transgendered people don't have special needs, they just want to be able to use a gender-appropriate toilet for them. It doesn't seem like that much of a demand to me.

You say that transgendered people are still male or female "on the outside", but what do you mean by that? Do you mean their genitals? Are you really going to dismiss their identity for the sake of a relatively tiny body part that's covered up 99% of the time?

EDIT: Also, in case you're interested in knowing how a transgendered person reacted when faced with your suggestion, here's a nice little story.

"I felt like they were saying that to be transgender there's something wrong and that transgender people need to be segregated,"

micahrp:
If your child fully functionally thought they were a fish how far would you go to facilitate their choice of lifestyle?

Would you let them drown themselves?

Can any of you on the side of child guarantee nothing untoward will occur? Who would be at fault if something did? The parents, the school, society at large? Certainly not the children since we don't let them take responsibility for their actions. Oh but thats right we are all about escaping or denial of responsibility for causing foreseeable situations.

Dear Escapists: if you could collectively stop comparing people with a medically diagnosed gender identity disorder to little kids playing at being an animal for the afternoon, I would be so awfully grateful. If you then do a little research, realise retrospectively how ignorant and disgustingly offensive you were being, and choose to facepalm at yourself for the rest of eternity then that would be fine by me as well.

boots:

micahrp:
If your child fully functionally thought they were a fish how far would you go to facilitate their choice of lifestyle?

Would you let them drown themselves?

Can any of you on the side of child guarantee nothing untoward will occur? Who would be at fault if something did? The parents, the school, society at large? Certainly not the children since we don't let them take responsibility for their actions. Oh but thats right we are all about escaping or denial of responsibility for causing foreseeable situations.

Dear Escapists: if you could collectively stop comparing people with a medically diagnosed gender identity disorder to little kids playing at being an animal for the afternoon, I would be so awfully grateful. If you then do a little research, realise retrospectively how ignorant and disgustingly offensive you were being, and choose to facepalm at yourself for the rest of eternity then that would be fine by me as well.

Psychiatric diagnoses will continue to change with the wind.

"Playing at being an animal"? Did I say that when I asked a question? I said fully functionally. Maybe the child's psychiatrist has medically diagnosed the child as having a lycanthropic disorder.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clinical_lycanthropy

Then, can you move onto the last section where I ask a question about the ounce of prevention? Thank you.

Lastly can you point out where I used dismissive terms that deserved your level of dismissiveness?

micahrp:
snip

Sorry, probably my reading comprehension, but I seem to have missed the part where you explained how a child drowning by attempting to breathe underwater is in any way comparable to a child peeing in a bathroom with a slightly different symbol on the door. Care to go over that bit again?

Clinical lycanthropy is a form of psychosis wherein the patient experiences a delusion that they are an animal. By using it as an analogue you are clearly implying that transgendered people are insane or deluded, thereby dismissing their gender identity.

EDIT: Just as a note, please bear in mind that there are a number of transgendered people on this forum, and it's kind of dickish to tell them that they're all just delusional.

MorRioghain:

Lil devils x:
The fact is that boy, even though he feels like he is a girl will be forced to experience a male puberty, not a female puberty, he will not be growing breasts, having a menstrual cycle, dealing with teenage pregnancy or any of the other issues the rest of the girls in the bathroom are dealing with and discuss there.

And here you make a fundamental flaw that pretty much undercuts your argument.
First of all you assume that she's a boy because she has a penis and that because she is a boy she will never understand girl issues.
Secondly you assume that she will be forced to experience male puberty. The current standards of care (though they may vary from place to place) prescribe that transgender kids should have their puberty delayed until they are considered old enough to make a 'final' decision (this is usually around age 15-16). After that they can start taking opposite sex hormones which will put them through their desired puberty. At no point would an adolescent boy, raging with their male hormones, be in the girls bathroom.

So once she would start on these hormones she will begin to develop breast, but she won't start menstruating. before arguing that therefor she shouldn't be included, ask yourself if you would also exclude cis girls who, for whatever reason, had their uterus and/or ovaries removed. This is actually a possible viewpoint if you want view things from a transgender perspective, as a member of their identified gender who lost their genitals. Ask yourself how you would approach such a person and start from that perspective.
Obviously the fact that they are missing part of this growing up into a woman is a big issue and very difficult for some, if not many, trans women. But excluding them from the social aspects makes it even worse, because now she doesn't only have to suffer from an abnormal puberty, she basically gets told that because of that she is not a real woman, that she is a freak.

Puberty is already difficult when it's a normal. So on top of the problems from an abnormal puberty you would heap social exclusion? I don't see how anyone can argue for such a position.

I am abosuletly floored by your thought that hormone treatment on a transgendered child would be considered in any WAY, SHAPE or FORM a "STANARD" treatment, and any physician who would compromise that childs health by medicating a child who does not absolutly require medication with something as dangerous as hormone therapy should lose their license.

I CANNOT STRESS THIS ENOUGH:
It is extremely ignorant to think that it could possibly be healthy to dispense medication to a child who does not absolutly require it. That would be extremely dangerous to their health, and being transgendered does not require any medication whatsoever. It is perfectly healthy and normal for a child to be born transgendered, in fact, where I come from, not only is it considered healthy, but they are considered GIFTED and highly regarded in our society, to treat them with something as dangerous as hormone therapy at such a volitile time in their development should be considered an extreme malpractice, not only should they lose their license for being so wreckless, they should be jailed for endangering a childs life. Instead of trying to force these children into not being comfortable and happy with the great gifts they were given, and convince them that in order to be themselves they have to risk their lives to change their bodies, they should be taught to be proud of who they are the way they are. The problem is the way society views them, not them. Medication, surgeries are very hard on ones health, and should never be taken lightly.

It is the way this society separates male and female activities and products that is the issue, not that the bathrooms are separated by sepate facilites for the sexes. Where I come from, the children choose whatever actvities or products from either gender they choose, and are only encouraged into doing what makes them happy. The two spirits are happy in their own bodies and proud of who they are, and do not seek to change that, because society does not pressure them to do so. LOL In Hopi life you have people pretending to be two spirits so they can be held as in high regard as they are. It is an issue with this society here that needs to be resolved, not with the two spirits themselves.

When viewing the brain scans of many people, both genders, there are varying degrees all in between male and female, by both genders and that should be addressed as well. Not everyone fits into " male trapped in female body, or female trapped in male body" catagories. It isn't a matter of male and female spirits being separetd that way, but rather they are separated by their bodies. Until the issue with the society itself is addressed, for the students safety, they should be able to use the "VIP" single occupant bathroom or the one designated for their sex if they so choose. Just because someone is more a degree more than another in between in a brain scan, should not determine whether or not they receive special treatment. Ideally every student would be provided access to a VIP single occupant facility, but the reality is they cannot afford to do so at this time. Instead, the bathrooms are designated by their actual sex, not their spirit.So they should have access made available to the VIP facility only to students who may have a real need for it. This would include students with bathroom issues that may cause embarrassment to use the shared facility, those who have a medical need, and those who do not fit in to the " either sex catagory". The other students do not even have to be aware they are going into the office and are using it. The VIP facilities at our school could only be accessed through the teachers lounge and through the back part of the office, so the other students do not even need to be made aware that is where they are going to reduce any hazing that could result by them doing so publicly. It would be far more traumatizing to a young transgendered person to have someone pop a camera over the stall while they are using it and then plaster the pics all over the school, as what happens on a regular basis at most schools in this nation.

The parents and children there already know she has a male body, 8 year olds these days are internet savvy and quite cruel. To save her further distress, I see allowing her use of the faculties facilities to be the best option for her own health. Now that everyone knows she has a male body, as the children become more aggressive through their puberty years, they also become much more cruel. This is a problem with the society itself and can be resolved over time, but I think the priority here should be ensuring her health and safety, and I honestly do not think they could do that any other way.

boots:

Lil devils x:
snip

But now you're arguing that transgendered people shouldn't be allowed in the boys or the girls toilets, but should have to use separate facilities entirely, as though they're somehow disabled. Transgendered people don't have special needs, they just want to be able to use a gender-appropriate toilet for them. It doesn't seem like that much of a demand to me.

You say that transgendered people are still male or female "on the outside", but what do you mean by that? Do you mean their genitals? Are you really going to dismiss their identity for the sake of a relatively tiny body part that's covered up 99% of the time?

EDIT: Also, in case you're interested in knowing how a transgendered person reacted when faced with your suggestion, here's a nice little story.

"I felt like they were saying that to be transgender there's something wrong and that transgender people need to be segregated,"

In a perfect world, the boys and girls would not be reading the internet and find out that the " girl with the purple hair has a dick." This child now has to go back into this, my concern is for her long term health. It would be far more harmful to the child to have them plaster pics of her privates they took while she used the student bathroom everywhere and ridicule her than allow her to use the bathroom that can only be accessed by staff.

Yes I am addressing their genitals, breasts, adams apples, facial and body hair, voice changes, body odor, widening of the hips, muscle tone, excreted fluids, and the many other factors that are determined by ones sex. Kids are cruel, even girls born with a vagina that develop adams apples are ridiculed to the point of becomeing suicidal, I cannot imagine the horror that one with a penis would endure when girls found out she has a penis in this society. She would be tormented by both girls and boys, and I do not think that would be healthy for her well being in any way. The problem is we only have male, female, and hermaphrodite sexes in physical bodies, but in spirit, we have many many degrees in between. Just because one person is one degree more feminine than another in spirit does not mean they should then use the girls toilet. It is the idea they should feel weird in their own body that is the problem here, If they are feminine in spirit and have a penis, they should be proud of being that way, rather than hiding it and be ashamed and want to change themselves to fit what people think they should be.

boots:

micahrp:
snip

Sorry, probably my reading comprehension, but I seem to have missed the part where you explained how a child drowning by attempting to breathe underwater is in any way comparable to a child peeing in a bathroom with a slightly different symbol on the door. Care to go over that bit again?

Clinical lycanthropy is a form of psychosis wherein the patient experiences a delusion that they are an animal. By using it as an analogue you are clearly implying that transgendered people are insane or deluded, thereby dismissing their gender identity.

EDIT: Just as a note, please bear in mind that there are a number of transgendered people on this forum, and it's kind of dickish to tell them that they're all just delusional.

They both have mental states that do not agree with their genetic makeup and expect society to enable them.

Since you brought up the topic of delusion, lets go to Merriam-Webster:
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/delusional

"A persistent false psychotic belief regarding the self or persons or objects outside the self that is maintained despite indisputable evidence to the contrary". Many here keep disputing the evidence of genetics, and I am putting forth both of these cases are the same on that basis.

Am I missing the part where you address who is responsible when something untoward happens?

boots:

micahrp:
snip

Sorry, probably my reading comprehension, but I seem to have missed the part where you explained how a child drowning by attempting to breathe underwater is in any way comparable to a child peeing in a bathroom with a slightly different symbol on the door. Care to go over that bit again?

Clinical lycanthropy is a form of psychosis wherein the patient experiences a delusion that they are an animal. By using it as an analogue you are clearly implying that transgendered people are insane or deluded, thereby dismissing their gender identity.

EDIT: Just as a note, please bear in mind that there are a number of transgendered people on this forum, and it's kind of dickish to tell them that they're all just delusional.

Not to be a dick but its his right to believe they're delusional. Not my opinion but since this is psychological theory not fact its a perfectly reasonable for someone to have that conclusion as much as believing it is a natural state of being. For instance, a friend of mine took up cross dressing and it almost ruined his marriage. It was found out that a large tumour in his brain was causing a huge hormonal imbalance and thus caused feelings that he was a woman. On removal of the tumour he reverted to his previous self. In that case the transgender feelings actually WERE a mental illness. Once again I will reiterate that this is not a statement to the effect that transgendered persons are mentally ill in the slightest. My point is that much of the brain is still unknown and that what some would call a discovery of their true identity others would call delusions. You are not a psychologist, he is not a psychologist. Opinions are equal. Being informed helps but it is still an opinion.

well..to be fair, i'd be lying if i'd say i wouldn't be a bit uncomfortable with sharing the restroom with a biological boy with male genitalia and all, regardless of as what gender he identifies himself..

micahrp:

They both have mental states that do not agree with their genetic makeup and expect society to enable them.

Since you brought up the topic of delusion, lets go to Merriam-Webster:
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/delusional

"A persistent false psychotic belief regarding the self or persons or objects outside the self that is maintained despite indisputable evidence to the contrary". Many here keep disputing the evidence of genetics, and I am putting forth both of these cases are the same on that basis.

Am I missing the part where you address who is responsible when something untoward happens?

Funny that psyciatrists don't class transgenderism as a delusion. Meh, what do they know. They don't think that homosexuality is a disease either.

Seriously, if you want to learn about the difference between biological sex and gender identity you only have to look inside this thread where it's been neatly explained for you. I even laid out in very simple terms how it's possible to have a genetically male sex organ with a genetically feminine brain structure. You're the only one disputing the evidence of genetics here.

And you seem to be talking in euphemisms here when you talk about "something untoward" happening. Are you talking about the kid being bullied? Because in that case I'd say it's the bully's responsibility to not victimise others, and the school's responsibility to discipline the bully. It is not the transgendered child's responsibility to hide who they are so as not to disturb the status quo, and it's certainly not the parent's responsibility to force their child to conform to society's expectations.

Tell me, whose responsibility is it when a transgendered child develops depression after being forced to wear the clothes and practice certain behaviours that don't come naturally to them? Whose responsibility is it when transgendered children commit suicide because their parents refuse to listen to them and their peers bully them for behaving in ways that didn't quite fit? Because I'd say that, among others, it's the responsibility of people who perpetuate misinformation about transgenderism being a "delusion".

Images:

Not to be a dick but its his right to believe they're delusional. Not my opinion but since this is psychological theory not fact its a perfectly reasonable for someone to have that conclusion as much as believing it is a natural state of being. For instance, a friend of mine took up cross dressing and it almost ruined his marriage. It was found out that a large tumour in his brain was causing a huge hormonal imbalance and thus caused feelings that he was a woman. On removal of the tumour he reverted to his previous self. In that case the transgender feelings actually WERE a mental illness. Once again I will reiterate that this is not a statement to the effect that transgendered persons are mentally ill in the slightest. My point is that much of the brain is still unknown and that what some would call a discovery of their true identity others would call delusions. You are not a psychologist, he is not a psychologist. Opinions are equal. Being informed helps but it is still an opinion.

I might not be a psychologist, but I do know that psychologists don't class transgenderism as a delusion. It's all very well to say that it's a matter of opinion, but the causes of homosexuality are only a matter of opinion as well. I could easily come out and say that homosexuals only suffer the delusion of being attracted to the same sex. Should we therefore lock homosexuals up and give them electroshock treatment until they're "cured"? Should we segregate homosexuals from the rest of society and make them use separate bathrooms because heterosexual people don't feel comfortable around them?

Images:
My point is that much of the brain is still unknown and that what some would call a discovery of their true identity others would call delusions. You are not a psychologist, he is not a psychologist. Opinions are equal. Being informed helps but it is still an opinion.

In reference to "much of the brain is still unknown" I would suggest reading the new book "How to create a mind" by Ray Kurzweil. He does the best job I've ever heard in explaining what our minds are: analytical forecast engines. We gather data, we correlate the data to create rules in attempts to forecast future events (realizing the future is all moments beyond now). These rules are models we hold and each model has degrees of accuracy (margins of error) and degrees of usefullness.

I am trying to point out the degree of usefulness, but as pointed out I am not a psychiatrist. I gave up on that route after a year when I thought it would be more fruitful to pursue computer science and build a mind than to attempt to fix minds which would not release harmful models.

Images:
Opinions are equal. Being informed helps but it is still an opinion.

I don't think opinions are equal at all. Some are as thick as a McDonald's milkshake.

The wish to change sexes, for example, is not only harmless in and of itself, but also (with modern science) an attainable goal. I don't think the "opinion" that it is a delusion has any legitimacy, therefore. That opinion is dismissive and ill-informed.

boots:
Should we therefore lock homosexuals up and give them electroshock treatment until they're "cured"?

Definitely. Big red hot pokers too. And the rack, gotta use the rack.

Drop the drama. I wasn't stating my opinion and if you check it out you'll see that I make that very clear with the words "not my opinion". Maybe next time I'll put that in bold underlined capitals. So please don't try to guilt my ass, with or without cheap rhetoric.

Should we segregate homosexuals from the rest of society and make them use separate bathrooms because heterosexual people don't feel comfortable around them?

What on earth are you babbling about? If you'll notice I've followed the argument that men go in the men's room and ladies go in the ladies room this entire thread. Gay or straight.

You're one odd cookie.

Silvanus:

Images:
Opinions are equal. Being informed helps but it is still an opinion.

I don't think opinions are equal at all. Some are as thick as a McDonald's milkshake.

The wish to change sexes, for example, is not only harmless in and of itself, but also (with modern science) an attainable goal. I don't think the "opinion" that it is a delusion has any legitimacy, therefore. That opinion is dismissive and ill-informed.

Technically that person never changes sex, merely gains the appearance of changed sex.

Now on being dismissive or ill-informed, Blanchard etheorizes that transgenderism could just be an extreme version of homosexuality and is partly a delusion. Once again, not my opinion, just pointing out that even the scientific community still has split beliefs on this.

Silvanus:

Images:
Opinions are equal. Being informed helps but it is still an opinion.

I don't think opinions are equal at all. Some are as thick as a McDonald's milkshake.

The wish to change sexes, for example, is not only harmless in and of itself, but also (with modern science) an attainable goal. I don't think the "opinion" that it is a delusion has any legitimacy, therefore. That opinion is dismissive and ill-informed.

You really should read up on this more, as this could not be further from the truth. Hormone therapy and gender surgery are extremely high risk, and yes, you are risking your life to do so. Whoever gave you the idea that it is harmless has much to learn. Yes, you may become the opposite sex, but yes, it may also be the cause of your death. This is not something ANYONE should consider lightly. It is better to be happy with your great gifts, and your wonderful healthy body than risk your health and your life to change that.

It is well known that these procedures have a high risk for cancer, dementia, stroke, clots, heart attack, urinary incontinence,Non healing wounds,and it wreaks havoc on your immune system. You should really better understand how your systems work together, this may help:

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_reproductive_system_interact_with_others_systems

This is a very dangerous procedure and I would not trust any Physician who tells you otherwise. They should be honest and let people know exactly what they are getting themselves in to.

Images:

Technically that person never changes sex, merely gains the appearance of changed sex.

How d'you figure? When they have the genitalia, chest, hormones and identity of one sex, you'd still define them as the other? Legally they're not. I'm wondering how you're defining a sex.

Images:
Now on being dismissive or ill-informed, Blanchard etheorizes that transgenderism could just be an extreme version of homosexuality and is partly a delusion. Once again, not my opinion, just pointing out that even the scientific community still has split beliefs on this.

That's interesting, I admit, I wasn't aware of that. Still, it's one among millions. There are scientists who doubt global warming, too, but they're a pretty damn small minority among the credible.

Lil devils x:
SNIP

I was referring to harm to others. I'd argue that they have the choice to control their own bodies, when they've put thought and consideration into it.

Images:
snip

Sorry if it came off like I was attacking you, I was just pointing out that the "matter of opinion" approach to psychology can actually be harmful and - as is evidenced by stories like this and the stuff posted in this thread - continues to be harmful to transgendered people. Not so long ago, homosexuality was classed as a mental illness and homosexuals were given electroshock therapy to cure them. Then psychology moved on but society didn't catch up, which is why you still get religious camps where people attempt to "cure" the gay.

It's the same situation here. Transgenderism isn't classed as a mental illness by psychiatrists (certainly not in the DSM-V) but Average Joe Transphobe doesn't care about that because he's entitled to his opinion that these crazy transgendered kids are just deluding themselves. What it comes down to is whether we listen to psychologists or to Average Joe Transphobe when we make decisions about which bathroom our children should be allowed to use.

boots:

micahrp:

They both have mental states that do not agree with their genetic makeup and expect society to enable them.

Since you brought up the topic of delusion, lets go to Merriam-Webster:
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/delusional

"A persistent false psychotic belief regarding the self or persons or objects outside the self that is maintained despite indisputable evidence to the contrary". Many here keep disputing the evidence of genetics, and I am putting forth both of these cases are the same on that basis.

Am I missing the part where you address who is responsible when something untoward happens?

Funny that psyciatrists don't class transgenderism as a delusion. Meh, what do they know. They don't think that homosexuality is a disease either.

Seriously, if you want to learn about the difference between biological sex and gender identity you only have to look inside this thread where it's been neatly explained for you. I even laid out in very simple terms how it's possible to have a genetically male sex organ with a genetically feminine brain structure. You're the only one disputing the evidence of genetics here.

And you seem to be talking in euphemisms here when you talk about "something untoward" happening. Are you talking about the kid being bullied? Because in that case I'd say it's the bully's responsibility to not victimise others, and the school's responsibility to discipline the bully. It is not the transgendered child's responsibility to hide who they are so as not to disturb the status quo, and it's certainly not the parent's responsibility to force their child to conform to society's expectations.

Tell me, whose responsibility is it when a transgendered child develops depression after being forced to wear the clothes and practice certain behaviours that don't come naturally to them? Whose responsibility is it when transgendered children commit suicide because their parents refuse to listen to them and their peers bully them for behaving in ways that didn't quite fit? Because I'd say that, among others, it's the responsibility of people who perpetuate misinformation about transgenderism being a "delusion".

What genetically female brain structure? Are they chimeras with two different genetic codes: the body made of XY chromosomes and a brain made of XX chromosomes (that would be too complex a situation for me to even want to address). What structure is that exactly (I guess I need to go back and refind where you detailed that)? An enlarged corpus callosum? Left hand males have that. Different sized glands? Every brain is different sized and ratioed, that doesn't mean people are therefore "naturally" something. A brain is a blank slate that we collect data into and use to create models.

As for delusions, everything inside the human mind has degrees of delusion since only in the abstract can we completely hold a concept in our brains. It is the degree of non-delusionalism that matters in how accurately one can interact with the world as a whole.

For the points made about aggression against, yes those negative things can happen, but the ones you listed are the same negatives everyone can experience to some degree when they hold to being different than others and I don't necessarily like the status quo because that often leads to stagnantion, but the individual needs to understand then that they are self-inflicting the mental part and the physical part need to be addressed in the legal system.

Nice dodge in not addressing outward responsibility from the person of issue if there is an incident where a different student is the victim of knowledge they are not prepared for and thus traumatized or worse in the form on a physical assault up to and including a sexual assault. Please address this now.

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