Should public schools officially recognize a student's gender identity?

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Silvanus:

Images:

Technically that person never changes sex, merely gains the appearance of changed sex.

How d'you figure? When they have the genitalia, chest, hormones and identity of one sex, you'd still define them as the other? Legally they're not. I'm wondering how you're defining a sex.

Images:
Now on being dismissive or ill-informed, Blanchard etheorizes that transgenderism could just be an extreme version of homosexuality and is partly a delusion. Once again, not my opinion, just pointing out that even the scientific community still has split beliefs on this.

That's interesting, I admit, I wasn't aware of that. Still, it's one among millions. There are scientists who doubt global warming, too, but they're an all-but-negligible minority.

Lil devils x:
SNIP

I was referring to harm to others. I'd argue that they have the choice to control their own bodies, when they've put thought and consideration into it.

Yes, it is not something to be thought of as "safe to do", even an adult should be given much time to think about before they put themselves through such, and be made fully aware of what can happen. As for those on this thread suggesting having children being put through this they need to better understand what this actually does to the body, and I would think that any physician willing to do this to a child should be jailed and barred from practicing ever again. The purpose of medicine is to save lives, not take them, if they are willing to do this to a child, they have turned from physician to executioner and that has no place in medicine.

Silvanus:

Images:

Technically that person never changes sex, merely gains the appearance of changed sex.

How d'you figure? When they have the genitalia, chest, hormones and identity of one sex, you'd still define them as the other? Legally they're not. I'm wondering how you're defining a sex.

My point wasn't to slur or offend but it is still a facsimile. The organs are what they are after post op only in that have been manipulated to look like the intended organ. Their functionality for their intended reproductive purpose is not possible.

(pretty please at this moment can we not have someone use the post-menopause, hysterectomy, vasectomy etc arguments? those are the biological end to a life cycle and essential or choice based operations to intentionally remove the capable parts)

Images:
Now on being dismissive or ill-informed, Blanchard etheorizes that transgenderism could just be an extreme version of homosexuality and is partly a delusion. Once again, not my opinion, just pointing out that even the scientific community still has split beliefs on this.

That's interesting, I admit, I wasn't aware of that. Still, it's one among millions. There are scientists who doubt global warming, too, but they're an all-but-negligible minority.

Aye, its not my opinion, just needed to point out that they are allowed their own and there is no solid proof either way...unlike global warning (which i'm not going into here...even though Gore was right!)

micahrp:

What genetically female brain structure? Are they chimeras with two different genetic codes: the body made of XY chromosomes and a brain made of XX chromosomes (that would be too complex a situation for me to even want to address). What structure is that exactly (I guess I need to go back and refind where you detailed that)? An enlarged corpus callosum? Left hand males have that. Different sized glands? Every brain is different sized and ratioed, that doesn't mean people are therefore "naturally" something. A brain is a blank slate that we collect data into and use to create models.

It's kind of hard to believe that you're actually willing to learn about transgenderism when you won't even sacrifice a few clicks of your mouse or a quick Google search to answer a question, and I have to deliver it to you on a plate. But here you go, the explanation in full. Again.


As for delusions, everything inside the human mind has degrees of delusion since only in the abstract can we completely hold a concept in our brains. It is the degree of non-delusionalism that matters in how accurately one can interact with the world as a whole.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure that's the definition of "delusion" given in the DSM-V. "Well, in a way, we're all a little bit delusional sometimes..."

For the points made about aggression against, yes those negative things can happen, but the ones you listed are the same negatives everyone can experience to some degree when they hold to being different than others and I don't necessarily like the status quo because that often leads to stagnantion, but the individual needs to understand then that they are self-inflicting the mental part and the physical part need to be addressed in the legal system.

Did you ... seriously just argue that depression is self-inflicted? That depression resulting from bullying is self-inflicted? That's ... OK. Try telling this kid that the feelings of frustration and loneliness he gets when his father won't accept him as a son are "self-inflicted".

Nice dodge in not addressing outward responsibility from the person of issue if there is an incident where a different student is the victim of knowledge they are not prepared for and thus traumatized or worse in the form on a physical assault up to and including a sexual assault. Please address this now.

OK, let me put that sentence through the punctuation injection machine. Should only take a couple of seconds...

There, done. OK, it still doesn't make any sense, because you haven't said what you mean by "person of issue", "different student, "victim of knowledge they are not prepared for, or "a physical assault up to and including a sexual assault". That ... literally doesn't make any kind of sense. Could you try using actual terms instead of euphemisms and lay out this hypothetical situation again? Pretty please?

Thought this would be relevant

image

Coy is a girl; she thinks she is one, she lives as one and in a view years will probably begin transitioning into one physically. What reason is there to treat her as a boy? bar a tiny piece of anatomy there is nothing.

We say toilets are sex based because when we started having segregated facilities there were only been 2 accepted genders - you were male or you were female, all other variations were not even considered. It makes sense to only have 2 options when there are only options.

Now we realise that that is a load of crap and that there is not a clear link between physical sex and mental gender, they are independent of each other. So why stick to the same rules from when we didn't know any better?

Several people have brought up the idea of others being uncomfortable with a trans person using the bathroom of their gender rather than their sex, but consider it from their side:

Imagine we're in a nightclub, it's 2am. and everyone is drunk. A trans person wants to use the toilet but there is a rule that you must use the toilet of your sex. Imagine what happens when they walk into the bathroom:

If you have a trans-male walk into the womens bathroom then they are going to get attacked for being a pervert and probably get thrown out of the club by the bouncers.

If you have a trans-woman walk into the guys bathroom how far do you think she'll get before some drunk twat/s decides to cop a feel/corner her? And what happens if they find out she's trans? You've just put someone through a terrifying sexual and/or physical assault for no reason whatsoever.

Or since we've been using schools you'll have teenage boys (who are 90% of the time are absolute arseholes) making life intolerable for a poor girl, or girls who spread rumours about the pervy boy that keeps walking into the girls toilets (as I doubt the entire school gets told if you're trans).

The 'solution' of disabled or their own special toilet doesn't work either. Have you ever seen a disabled toilet? They are specifically designed for people that struggle to use a regular toilet. Unless being transgender also means you can't use a normal toilet then there is absolutely no reason for transgender pupils to be forced to use them. As for a separate toilet, well think about the social aspects; as a few female escapists have pointed out girls do a lot more in the toilets than what they are intended for and by banning trans-females from joining these activities you are excluding them from an important social aspects. Same for guys, while we don't socialize in bathrooms if you have to traipse across campus to go to your separate toilet then you miss out on a lot of social interaction if you are constantly having to go a different direction from your friends.

No matter how you look at this, you are always fucking over transgendered people for reasons that do not have a leg to stand on beyond 'it's weird' (which btw is a toothpick sized leg to begin with).

some of these gay males go Bi Sexual as well. So what would happen then? thats the issue...

Karma168:
Thought this would be relevant

image

Coy is a girl; she thinks she is one, she lives as one and in a view years will probably begin transitioning into one physically. What reason is there to treat her as a boy? bar a tiny piece of anatomy there is nothing.

We say toilets are sex based because when we started having segregated facilities there were only been 2 accepted genders - you were male or you were female, all other variations were not even considered. It makes sense to only have 2 options when there are only options.

Now we realise that that is a load of crap and that there is not a clear link between physical sex and mental gender, they are independent of each other. So why stick to the same rules from when we didn't know any better?

Several people have brought up the idea of others being uncomfortable with a trans person using the bathroom of their gender rather than their sex, but consider it from their side:

Imagine we're in a nightclub, it's 2am. and everyone is drunk. A trans person wants to use the toilet but there is a rule that you must use the toilet of your sex. Imagine what happens when they walk into the bathroom:

If you have a trans-male walk into the womens bathroom then they are going to get attacked for being a pervert and probably get thrown out of the club by the bouncers.

If you have a trans-woman walk into the guys bathroom how far do you think she'll get before some drunk twat/s decides to cop a feel/corner her? And what happens if they find out she's trans? You've just put someone through a terrifying sexual and/or physical assault for no reason whatsoever.

Or since we've been using schools you'll have teenage boys (who are 90% of the time are absolute arseholes) making life intolerable for a poor girl, or girls who spread rumours about the pervy boy that keeps walking into the girls toilets (as I doubt the entire school gets told if you're trans).

The 'solution' of disabled or their own special toilet doesn't work either. Have you ever seen a disabled toilet? They are specifically designed for people that struggle to use a regular toilet. Unless being transgender also means you can't use a normal toilet then there is absolutely no reason for transgender pupils to be forced to use them. As for a separate toilet, well think about the social aspects; as a few female escapists have pointed out girls do a lot more in the toilets than what they are intended for and by banning trans-females from joining these activities you are excluding them from an important social aspects. Same for guys, while we don't socialize in bathrooms if you have to traipse across campus to go to your separate toilet then you miss out on a lot of social interaction if you are constantly having to go a different direction from your friends.

No matter how you look at this, you are always fucking over transgendered people for reasons that do not have a leg to stand on beyond 'it's weird' (which btw is a toothpick sized leg to begin with).

Lets look at the reality of this, rather than the cartoon version:
Coy was born with a penis, but has never felt like she was a boy and was not interested in male activities. She is willing to risk her health and her life to cause great harm to her body to fit in because the society she lives in makes her feel as though she has to be one or the other, because they don't find being both male and feminine acceptable. In order to prove she really is female she is willing to put her health on the line, even though she could have had a different life, very much enjoying the body she was given and her feminine spirit, only if society had helped her gain the confidence she needed to do so.

Because THIS society, unlike others, does not understand there are actually more than two sexes, as there are actually THREE physical sexes, including Hermophrodites who have to attend these schools as well, rather than accomodate them, and accept them for who they are, they force them into "gender roles" and force them to choose, when there is no reason for them to be forced to choose in the first place. It does not make sense to only have two options where there are actually Three sexes, and the brain scans of both male and female brains have shown there are many degrees in between.

Now we know that the idea that there are only two sexes is a load of crap, since there are actually physically three, and the gender mindset from masculine to feminine does not fall only into two catagories, or even three but many many degrees in between, why would we only have facilities for only two sexes when there needs to be at least Three?

Now imagine this.. walking into a nightclub that didn't have a unisex bathroom these days? I haven't seen one that didn't have a unisex bathroom in a long time, and I am living in that hillbilly state called Texas where one might think they couldn't find one, imagine that they didn't have them in major cities everywhere? that would be a nightmare, good thing most clubs these days have put them in. They even Unisex bathrooms in walmarts now, I mean if a place as conservative as walmart has one already, you would think the schools would have implemented them by now.

Now imagine the transgendered boy, even though he has felt like a boy his entire life and was born with a vagina, he has to enter the boys restroom in highschool with those same " arseholes" you wouldn't want a transgendered girl to have to put up with. Do you think his life is going to be any better? Now think about the girl going into the girls restroom with every girl in there knowing she has a penis, do you think teenage girls are going to be nice to her? They can often be worse than the boys!

I think having more single occupant bathrooms should be required, why the hell would they only have two bathrooms when there are actually three physical sexes in the first place, and many degrees of gender in between?

Trying to force teens to be nice is the problem here, if we could do that it would solve a great many problems, but since we cannot force anyone to do anything, because they only respond worse when you attempt to force something on someone, all we can do is at least provide a safe environment as an option for those who are high risk for being targeted by others. There really is no excuse for forcing anyone to choose between male and female facilities where there are actually three sexes to begin with, and many degrees in between .

boots:

It's kind of hard to believe that you're actually willing to learn about transgenderism when you won't even sacrifice a few clicks of your mouse or a quick Google search to answer a question, and I have to deliver it to you on a plate. But here you go, the explanation in full. Again.

For the points made about aggression against, yes those negative things can happen, but the ones you listed are the same negatives everyone can experience to some degree when they hold to being different than others and I don't necessarily like the status quo because that often leads to stagnantion, but the individual needs to understand then that they are self-inflicting the mental part and the physical part need to be addressed in the legal system.

Did you ... seriously just argue that depression is self-inflicted? That depression resulting from bullying is self-inflicted? That's ... OK. Try telling this kid that the feelings of frustration and loneliness he gets when his father won't accept him as a son are "self-inflicted".

Nice dodge in not addressing outward responsibility from the person of issue if there is an incident where a different student is the victim of knowledge they are not prepared for and thus traumatized or worse in the form on a physical assault up to and including a sexual assault. Please address this now.

OK, let me put that sentence through the punctuation injection machine. Should only take a couple of seconds...

There, done. OK, it still doesn't make any sense, because you haven't said what you mean by "person of issue", "different student, "victim of knowledge they are not prepared for, or "a physical assault up to and including a sexual assault". That ... literally doesn't make any kind of sense. Could you try using actual terms instead of euphemisms and lay out this hypothetical situation again? Pretty please?

Wow, I liked the originating article (not the derivative one with spin) because they did stick to the scientific method and reported results and quantified their lack of knowledge about cause and included rebuttals.

"The brain is being sculpted gradually through sets of interactions," said Anne Fausto-Sterling, a gender studies expert at Brown University. "Even when something in the brain appears biological, it may have come to be that way because of how the body has experienced the world." http://www.latimes.com/news/science/la-sci-brainsex16jun16,0,5806592,full.story

And wow the corpus callosum and handedness is heavily referred to.

Yes, the person in the videos depression is a result of a personal desire. To relieve suffering let go of desire (one of the major tenants of eastern philosphies). Better yet become empowered and remove yourself from the situation, it's no coincidence that the point was made that they felt better outside the situation. My current state is the result of such depression which will never abate but has lessened significantly after taking control of my life setting instead of just sliding through life dependant on someone else.

You have problems with legal terms like person of issue? There is only one person that is the focal point of the article. All of those phrases make complete sense. "knowledge they were not prepared for" states that some knowledge causes trauma. I still have cringing flashbacks to when I learned about the physical manifestation of gender difference. I'm sorry if your vocabulary and life experience have not prepared you for my parsing of phrases. On the other hand you may be playing mental possum in an attempt to draw out more explicit words or words labelled as hate speech so that it would be easier to dismiss my logic without addressing it.

micahrp:

Wow, I liked the article when I went to read the original because they did stick to the scientific method and reported results and quantified their lack of knowledge about cause.

"The brain is being sculpted gradually through sets of interactions," said Anne Fausto-Sterling, a gender studies expert at Brown University. "Even when something in the brain appears biological, it may have come to be that way because of how the body has experienced the world." http://www.latimes.com/news/science/la-sci-brainsex16jun16,0,5806592,full.story

Yes, the brain gets sculpted as we go through life, but it doesn't get created. We don't just start with a big old goop of random cells that turn into neurons when we get shown a flashcard that says "A for Apple" and then gradually join up to form grey and white matter with a hypothalamus showing up sometime around our third birthday. The basic structure of the brain is set and large elements of its architecture are formed by hormonal influences during pregnancy. During the eighth week of pregnancy, in the case of males and transgendered women, there is a spike in testosterone that causes growth in the areas of the brain mentioned in the article on sex difference in brain structure.

If you like science, you should love that.

Yes, the person in the videos depression is a result of a personal desire. To relieve suffering let go of desire (one of the major tenants of eastern philosphies). Better yet become empowered and remove yourself from the situation, it's no coincidence that the point was made that they felt better outside the situation. My current state is the result of such depression which will never abate but has lessened significantly after taking control of my life setting instead of just sliding through life dependant on someone else.

So you think depression is self-inflicted and people with depression should just take control of their lives and get over it. OK. Right. I ... I am literally incapable of dealing with that viewpoint so I'm just going to leave it.

You have problems with legal terms like person of issue? There is only one person that is the focal point of the article. All of those phrases make complete sense. "knowledge they were not prepared for" states that some knowledge causes trauma. I still have cringing flashbacks to when I learned about the physical manifestation of gender difference. I'm sorry if your vocabulary and life experience have not prepared you for my parsing of phrases. On the other hand you may be playing mental possum in an attempt to draw out more explicit words or words labelled as hate speech so that it would be easier to dismiss my logic without addressing it.

OK, so here is what I think you are trying to say but not saying because you think it would qualify as hate speech and therefore be against the posting regulations (just a suggestion, but if your views constitute hate speech when stated plainly, you might want to rethink them).

You think that if another girl were to see Coy's penis whilst in the girls bathroom (not sure how it would happen, unless she wandered out of the stall with her pants still around her ankles, but OK), it would psychologically traumatise them. I'm not sure how this translates as physical or sexual assault, so maybe you could clear that one up for me. And please, I beg you, try to use some punctuation this time.

boots:

micahrp:

Wow, I liked the article when I went to read the original because they did stick to the scientific method and reported results and quantified their lack of knowledge about cause.

"The brain is being sculpted gradually through sets of interactions," said Anne Fausto-Sterling, a gender studies expert at Brown University. "Even when something in the brain appears biological, it may have come to be that way because of how the body has experienced the world." http://www.latimes.com/news/science/la-sci-brainsex16jun16,0,5806592,full.story

Yes, the brain gets sculpted as we go through life, but it doesn't get created. We don't just start with a big old goop of random cells that turn into neurons when we get shown a flashcard that says "A for Apple" and then gradually join up to form grey and white matter with a hypothalamus showing up sometime around our third birthday. The basic structure of the brain is set and large elements of its architecture are formed by hormonal influences during pregnancy. During the eighth week of pregnancy, in the case of males and transgendered women, there is a spike in testosterone that causes growth in the areas of the brain mentioned in the article on sex difference in brain structure.

If you like science, you should love that.

Yes, the person in the videos depression is a result of a personal desire. To relieve suffering let go of desire (one of the major tenants of eastern philosphies). Better yet become empowered and remove yourself from the situation, it's no coincidence that the point was made that they felt better outside the situation. My current state is the result of such depression which will never abate but has lessened significantly after taking control of my life setting instead of just sliding through life dependant on someone else.

So you think depression is self-inflicted and people with depression should just take control of their lives and get over it. OK. Right. I ... I am literally incapable of dealing with that viewpoint so I'm just going to leave it.

You have problems with legal terms like person of issue? There is only one person that is the focal point of the article. All of those phrases make complete sense. "knowledge they were not prepared for" states that some knowledge causes trauma. I still have cringing flashbacks to when I learned about the physical manifestation of gender difference. I'm sorry if your vocabulary and life experience have not prepared you for my parsing of phrases. On the other hand you may be playing mental possum in an attempt to draw out more explicit words or words labelled as hate speech so that it would be easier to dismiss my logic without addressing it.

OK, so here is what I think you are trying to say but not saying because you think it would qualify as hate speech and therefore be against the posting regulations (just a suggestion, but if your views constitute hate speech when stated plainly, you might want to rethink them).

You think that if another girl were to see Coy's penis whilst in the girls bathroom (not sure how it would happen, unless she wandered out of the stall with her pants still around her ankles, but OK), it would psychologically traumatise them. I'm not sure how this translates as physical or sexual assault, so maybe you could clear that one up for me. And please, I beg you, try to use some punctuation this time.

Honestly, I think Coy would be more traumatized than the girls, considering how most teen girls react these days, they are quite cruel. However, I have known some girls who would have been traumatized by that and been in confession and penance, or thought they have somehow sinned and then they would have some irate father ready to tie coy to the back of the truck for exposing himself to his daughter. Guys showing other Guys daughters their junk isn't taken kindly in many regions. Angry fathers don't really care if Coy is gay or not.

Police do not seem to care whether or not a guy is gay or not either if they exposed themselves to a female in a women's restroom as well. Men are not allowed to expose themselves to females in womens restrooms regardless of their " feelings" on the issue.

http://www.thepresstribune.com/article/teen-exposes-himself-7-year-old-girl
http://www.purdueexponent.org/campus/article_bc2d2898-ec99-11e1-8707-0019bb30f31a.html

And as for how this might affect young girls:
http://www.medhelp.org/posts/Child-Behavior/Daughter-in-Kindergarten-boy-exposing-himself/show/1621693
This little girl doesn't even want to go to school now over a kid doing this.

Lil devils x:

Honestly, I think Coy would be more traumatized than the girls, considering how most teen girls react these days, they are quite cruel. However, I have known some girls who would have been traumatized by that and been in confession and penance, or thought they have somehow sinned and then they would have some irate father ready to tie coy to the back of the truck for exposing himself to his daughter. Guys showing other Guys daughters their junk isn't taken kindly in many regions. Angry fathers don't really care if Coy is gay or not.

All of this in the hypothetical situation that Coy walks out of the stall with her pants around her ankles.

So you think that the possibility of A) a religious kid seeing a penis and having a religious crisis because their parents have convinced them that sex is evil and dirty or B) the crazy rednecks of Fort Carson, Colorado lynching a six year-old for wearing a dress (neither of which are things that have happened or show any signs of happening in this case, but are instead things that you - Random Dude On The Internet #19823 - imagine might happen, despite the fact that the school is pretty progressive and the community has been generally very supportive) are reason enough to ban a girl from using the girls bathroom and force her to use the boys bathroom instead?

Sorry, but since when have we let transphobics dictate how we treat trans people? That doesn't seem like a recipe for success.

boots:

Lil devils x:

Honestly, I think Coy would be more traumatized than the girls, considering how most teen girls react these days, they are quite cruel. However, I have known some girls who would have been traumatized by that and been in confession and penance, or thought they have somehow sinned and then they would have some irate father ready to tie coy to the back of the truck for exposing himself to his daughter. Guys showing other Guys daughters their junk isn't taken kindly in many regions. Angry fathers don't really care if Coy is gay or not.

All of this in the hypothetical situation that Coy walks out of the stall with her pants around her ankles.

So you think that the possibility of A) a religious kid seeing a penis and having a religious crisis because their parents have convinced them that sex is evil and dirty or B) the crazy rednecks of Fort Carson, Colorado lynching a six year-old for wearing a dress (neither of which are things that have happened or show any signs of happening in this case, but are instead things that you - Random Dude On The Internet #19823 - imagine might happen, despite the fact that the school is pretty progressive and the community has been generally very supportive) are reason enough to ban a girl from using the girls bathroom and force her to use the boys bathroom instead?

Sorry, but since when have we let transphobics dictate how we treat trans people? That doesn't seem like a recipe for success.

Why would she have to leave the stall? Girls used to sit on top those things talking while I was in there and poking heads under asking me questions. It isn't like that is somehow going to stop. And since when do they fix the locks on the stall doors everyday? Half the damn time people just walked in on you.

Actually the person I know that would have been most traumatized by this was not in any religion that would have taught her nudity was bad, she was my sister. She was always very timid, and had nightmares after someone walked in on her in the restroom, given a choice she would prefer to use a single occupant bathroom as well, and could have been givena medical reason to do so due to how physically and mentally this affected her as well.

Might happen? What world do you live in? These things do happen, why the hell do you think teen suicide is so high these days? The teens are cruel and ridicule and torment each other to the point they want to die than deal with it. I have known people who had trash bags put over their heads, beaten and rolled down a hill because they were " different". Hell, the kid that happened to is still in a mental institution over that. That ruined his life, not theirs. There has to be more protection for these kids, or they are going to be seriously emotionally damaged from the trauma. I want to protect them, and currently there are only two ways to do that, either take all the rest of the kids out of the school and have the very small minority of kids who are actually nice left to be educated, or you provide them safety. You propose to put them in further danger, I say their safety takes priority here. You cannot control others actions no matter how much you wish you could, hell if I could have done that I would have MADE the police put my ex in jail before he tried to kill me a second time but stabbed my neighbor instead. But no, the law makes it very difficult to build a harrassment case, and offers very little real protection from someone wishing to harm you. They can still have you killed even if they are behind bars, if they really want to. This isn't hypothetical, this is the reality of the situation. I know that I cannot stop them from harming others no matter how much I want to, but I can try to make it harder for them to do so. You can legally cause emotional harm to others, the students can legally make transgendered kids uncomfortable, and they will continue to do so even if it were against the law. So the focus should be on what we can do, and that is to prevent harm by giving them more options.

You are missing a very big point here, is that there isn't just "boy and girl". There is boy, girl and both. You can be both at the same time, and that be perfectly fine. Why are they not being forced to provide facilities for all sexes in the first place? There are THREE sexes to begin with, and that is not even being addressed here. There is no reason at ALL that anyone should be forced to choose between only male and female in the first place. Failing to recognize the third gender is just as prejudice as someone failing to recognize a male who wishes to identify as a female.
http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Intersexed
http://www.isna.org/faq/frequency

Regardless of how accepting a community is, when you start going into issues of it being acceptable for students to expose penises in girls restrooms, you are going to hit a wall that isn't coming down any time soon, expecially when you look at the many girls raped in bathrooms as it is. I don't think that will go over well, and it has nothing to do with transphobias.

EDIT: If you had actually read ANY of my posts on this thread, you would have seen I repeatedly stated It would DANGEROUS to her to be forced to use the Boys bathroom, and nor should she be forced to given her situation.

Lil devils x:

Why would she have to leave the stall? Girls used to sit on top those things talking while I was in there and poking heads under asking me questions. It isn't like that is somehow going to stop. And since when do they fix the locks on the stall doors everyday? Half the damn time people just walked in on you.

Actually the person I know that would have been most traumatized by this was not in any religion that would have taught her nudity was bad, she was my sister. She was always very timid, and had nightmares after someone walked in on her in the restroom, given a choice she would prefer to use a single occupant bathroom as well, and could have been givena medical reason to do so due to how physically and mentally this affected her as well.

Might happen? What world do you live in? These things do happen, why the hell do you think teen suicide is so high these days? The teens are cruel and ridicule and torment each other to the point they want to die than deal with it. I have known people who had trash bags put over their heads, beaten and rolled down a hill because they were " different". Hell, the kid that happened to is still in a mental institution over that. That ruined his life, not theirs. There has to be more protection for these kids, or they are going to be seriously emotionally damaged from the trauma. I want to protect them, and currently there are only two ways to do that, either take all the rest of the kids out of the school and have the very small minority of kids who are actually nice left to be educated, or you provide them safety. You propose to put them in further danger, I say their safety takes priority here. You cannot control others actions no matter how much you wish you could, hell if I could have done that I would have MADE the police put my ex in jail before he tried to kill me a second time but stabbed my neighbor instead. But no, the law makes it very difficult to build a harrassment case, and offers very little real protection from someone wishing to harm you. They can still have you killed even if they are behind bars, if they really want to. This isn't hypothetical, this is the reality of the situation. I know that I cannot stop them from harming others no matter how much I want to, but I can try to make it harder for them to do so. You can legally cause emotional harm to others, the students can legally make transgendered kids uncomfortable, and they will continue to do so even if it were against the law. So the focus should be on what we can do, and that is to prevent harm by giving them more options.

You are missing a very big point here, is that there isn't just "boy and girl". There is boy, girl and both. You can be both at the same time, and that be perfectly fine. Why are they not being forced to provide facilities for all sexes in the first place? There are THREE sexes to begin with, and that is not even being addressed here. There is no reason at ALL that anyone should be forced to choose between only male and female in the first place. Failing to recognize the third gender is just as prejudice as someone failing to recognize a male who wishes to identify as a female.
http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Intersexed
http://www.isna.org/faq/frequency

Regardless of how accepting a community is, when you start going into issues of it being acceptable for students to expose penises in girls restrooms, you are going to hit a wall that isn't coming down any time soon, expecially when you look at the many girls raped in bathrooms as it is. I don't think that will go over well, and it has nothing to do with transphobias.

EDIT: If you had actually read ANY of my posts on this thread, you would have seen I repeatedly stated It would DANGEROUS to her to be forced to use the Boys bathroom, and nor should she be forced to given her situation.

Thank you for going into the detail I am ill-equipted to go into and giving actual examples of similar situations going wrong.

Your proposal is absolutely a wonderful option. Third single occupant locations are probably the preferred location of use for parents with very young children and infants and many others as you mentioned. Going forward for new facilities this probably should be a mandated option, but how many school boards would approve the expendature to retro-fit our already outdated buildings with enough well placed facilities.

As for intersexed being a third gender, wouldn't they have to have a unique third set of body parts versus percentages of the other two? Such as a species where the female has an ovipositor and no womb and there is a neuter gender that carries the child but does not contribute genes. Or a species that would have a trinary genetic code instead of helictical?

Lil devils x:
SNIP

The thing is, you're right about society's incomprehension that the two sexes aren't all there is. You're right on that mark. But the conclusion you seem to draw from this, that people with gender dysphoria or the intersex should just learn to be happy how they are, is dismissive and reductionist. Gender dysphorics do not simply worry about how society sees them; it can be incredibly personal.

I'm going to go out on a limb here, and assume that you do not have gender dysphoria, and that you are not intersex. That you are, in fact, a cisgendered individual telling those in that condition that their problem isn't legitimate in the way they believe it is.

(To be clear: I do not mean the above to be a personal attack; I recognise that you care very much about child welfare, that's clear from your post above. So, the above is not intended to imply that you're uncaring).

This could all be avoided if parents were given a choice in where their children are schooled, rather than being railroaded due to the location of their house. Open up the possibility for parents to send their child's education funds to a school of their choosing rather than making them pay twice for the privilege(which is unaffordable for most), and suddenly the people who are culturally conservative can surround their kids with children from like-minded families, and the progressive parents who want to indulge their child's belief that they are a cross-gender good vampire from the year 3128 can surround their children with like-minded multiculturalists.

No-brainer really.

boots:

Relish in Chaos:
How is forcing a transgendered girl to use a boy's bathroom any less awkward than forcing them to use a girl's bathroom (since, this may just be based on stereotypes, girls are on average more accepting of transgendered girls than boys)?

Allow me to rephrase this question for you.

"How is forcing a girl to use a boy's bathroom any less awkward than forcing them to use a girl's bathroom?"

Do you see why it might be a bit of a problem?

I feel like giving up on this thread. So many people here are stuck in the mentality of "OK, transgendered girls are girls, but they're not really girls, are they? Not in any way that matters or should be accepted." It's starting to feel a bit pointless trying to educate people who have zero interest in learning, and who just want transgendered people to go away and stop all this "my gender doesn't match my sex" silliness.

Wow guys, I'm so sorry that someone else's gender dysphoria is confusing or uncomfortable for you.

I think you misunderstood him. I may be wrong, but if I understood him correctly, he was saying that the argument that, "It would be awkward to have someone with male genitals in the girls' bathroom," could easily be turned around to say, "It would be awkward to have someone who is mentally a girl in the boys' bathroom." In other words, I'm pretty sure he agrees with you.

Silvanus:

Lil devils x:
SNIP

The thing is, you're right about society's incomprehension that the two sexes aren't all there is. You're right on that mark. But the conclusion you seem to draw from this, that people with gender dysphoria or the intersex should just learn to be happy how they are, is dismissive and reductionist. Gender dysphorics do not simply worry about how society sees them; it can be incredibly personal.

I'm going to go out on a limb here, and assume that you do not have gender dysphoria, and that you are not intersex. That you are, in fact, a cisgendered individual telling those in that condition that their problem isn't legitimate in the way they believe it is.

(To be clear: I do not mean the above to be a personal attack; I recognise that you care very much about child welfare, that's clear from your post above. So, the above is not intended to imply that you're uncaring).

First, I feel the way THIS society views gender is the issue and is flawed and the cause of the problems associated. In tribes that have always celebrated differences and not separated activities and products between boys and girls Transgendered or " two spirits", are happy with thier bodies the way they are because they are praised for their great gifts rather than made to feel they do not fit in. It is a matter of experience that molds someone to be comfortable or uncomfortable with what they were given. this is a construct of the society they live in, not the people themselves. The truth is there are MANY MANY varying degrees of gender alignment and there is no clear cut line between the male and female spirit. Some traits are considered masculine, some are considered feminine, for those that experience both, are called " two spirit" and held in high regard for their great abilities.

What is it to be " feminine" or "masculine"? What is it that makes them think that you can't be a "certain way" in the body you are given? I also see much of what people feel has more to do with how society has influenced people to be uncomfortable in their own skins, and not just transgendered, but even moreso for what society considers unattractive people. I had a different experience, not only because of my tribes beliefs, as I had to survive in this society as well, but also because of being born into what society considers to be an attractive body as well. I was born an attractive petite female. I never enjoyed playing with dolls, and had no female friends that I have identified with most of my life. I have only had one close female friend, and she is still my friend since we met in the 7th grade. I had many girls who considered me their friend, but I never identified with them. From birth, I was a "tom boy". I built forts in the woods, did crazy bike and skateboard stunts,Played goalie in street hockey with the boys and spent a great deal of time in the penalty box due to injuring other players. I cut up my dresses with scissors my mother made me wear so she couldn't make me wear them anymore. I didn't like to wear makeup or do my hair fancy. I was mean to my sisters dolls and instead of cooking food in my easy bake oven, I cooked my brothers hotwheels and melted the tires off. These are not what most consider " feminine traits". I got into fights, slid down dirt hills, collected snakes and spiders came home black and blue and didn't care. I loved taking delivery drivers tips gambling on video games and then to rub it in telling them " They got beat by a girrrl" just to piss them off.

For me though, I was always popular at school and well liked. I always had many friends, the majority of them boys, but Boys are much more accepting of girls they consider "cool" and the only problem I had were boys who I thought were friends always trying to kiss me or telling me they loved me when I just wanted to hang out. There have been times I wished I wasn't a girl or born into this body because of things that I would be able to do that I could not due to my gender and size. Like when I tried to become a firefighter and they said I didn't weigh enough, or when I wanted to play football and I wasn't big enough, and then being told this is " boys only football" if you want to play go make a girl team, or when People don;t take you seriously because they are too busy talking to your chest. On a more personal level when I was raped I really wanted to be a big buff guy who could have killed the guy, but that is another matter.

I did do some feminine activities, I was a cheerleader, until I broke another cheerleaders nose and got banned from the squad, I was captain of the gymnastics team, a lifeguard, I actually modeled for a while, but only because I was really desparate for cash to pay my bills, not because I liked it, I honestly hated it, and felt horrible doing it, and as soon as I found better ways to make money I did.

I like to weld and do metal art, I do woodworking and carpentry and I have more power tools than anyone I know, and these are not for work, these are just my hobbies. But see the thing is, when a girl does these things and doesn't appear to be " butch" people praise you for it rather than find it odd. It is okay for me to drag race, and no one makes me feel weird about it. For guys, I think they have a much harder time in this society because of the way the males in this society view " feminine activities". They make people uncomfortable with who they are, and that is a big part of the problem.

As for sexual preferences, I have had sex with both men and women and attracted to them both in different ways. Men, because of shared interests and more pleasurable sex, but I don't find men in general as physically "attractive" I find women attractive, and think womens bodies are sexier than mens. So yes, I would be considered "Bisexual", but choose to have more relations with men than women.

I feel that it is a construct of this society in how they view people and that is the reason for so many to be uncomfortbale in their own skin, and that if this society treated people as other societies have, giving them the confidence and tools to succeed, there would be a lot more people not trying to change who they are to fit in, but instead they would flourish and being proud of who they are. Their confidence and self esteem has been beaten down due to the society they live in. If they had been accepted for who they are the whole way through, they would have different feelings on how they view themselves now.

Jesus Christ, I'm gone for a day and the whole thread basically has devolved into trans and homophobia. I'm done with this for now, I can only handle about 1 page of this at a time.

Images:
Opinions are equal. Being informed helps but it is still an opinion.

No it the fuck isn't. You sir, are confusing the difference between fact and opinion, then construing that further to mean that all things said are equal. That's horseshit of the highest quality there.

Here's a brief rundown of the differences:

I like the color red.
I like the color blue.

Both opinions: Both equally valid.

I think the world is a flat disk on the back of a wandering turtle.
The world is round and here's a monumental amount of evidence that has been gathered and reported on since the Classical Era and even before, including some experiments to help prove it you can run in your own house..

Not opinions: Not equally valid.

When people said 'All opinions are equal' they actually meant real opinions not your muddled and confused notion that everything in the universe is an opinion.

Lil devils x:
Yes, we do. Maybe you chose not to, but yes many of us do. Also with the weather changes here, you had to change from morning clothes to afternoon clothes or you would freeze in the morning and sweat your ass off by afternoons so most girls here bring a change of clothes just for that reason, and do not like changing in the stalls because of the toilets being in there, and no counter to put your clothes on. And yes, I would think you in the minority if you never saw or touched another girls breast in school. LOL

Just because you were having weird quasi-lesbian pillow fights or whatever in your bathroom doesn't mean that the designation of what is or isn't a bathroom should change. Buy a tote bag and change in the stall if you have to. I'm sure that's what the body self conscious have to do anyways.

Images:
Now on being dismissive or ill-informed, Blanchard etheorizes that transgenderism could just be an extreme version of homosexuality and is partly a delusion. Once again, not my opinion, just pointing out that even the scientific community still has split beliefs on this.

There are people in the 'scientific community' that believe the world is flat and believe they have mathematics to prove it, despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary, because the 'scientific community' isn't one big hive mind and all you have to do to enter it is say you're in it. Find me something peer reviewed and that holds up to modern peer reviewing; nothing from the 1940's and shit.

But to be honest, I can debunk that right now just by the fact that there are plenty of transpeople that are attracted to the same sex. That is you have a male to female transwoman who is attracted to women. If they were an 'extreme' gay, they would be attracted to men.

Images:

boots:
Should we therefore lock homosexuals up and give them electroshock treatment until they're "cured"?

Definitely. Big red hot pokers too. And the rack, gotta use the rack.

Drop the drama. I wasn't stating my opinion and if you check it out you'll see that I make that very clear with the words "not my opinion". Maybe next time I'll put that in bold underlined capitals. So please don't try to guilt my ass, with or without cheap rhetoric.

Then what the hell are you bringing it up for? Nobody needs a lecture on bad science from NOM. You're adding absolutely nothing to the discussion and are basically crying for attention or purposefully trolling.

Images:

Should we segregate homosexuals from the rest of society and make them use separate bathrooms because heterosexual people don't feel comfortable around them?

What on earth are you babbling about? If you'll notice I've followed the argument that men go in the men's room and ladies go in the ladies room this entire thread. Gay or straight.

You're one odd cookie.

Think for a second about why they would separate bathrooms at all, and then his remarks will make a lot more sense.

Kathinka:
well..to be fair, i'd be lying if i'd say i wouldn't be a bit uncomfortable with sharing the restroom with a biological boy with male genitalia and all, regardless of as what gender he identifies himself..

Then grow up? Just because somebody is uncomfortable around fat people or black people or whatever doesn't mean you get to be king of waste facilities.

Lil devils x:

In a perfect world, the boys and girls would not be reading the internet and find out that the " girl with the purple hair has a dick." This child now has to go back into this, my concern is for her long term health. It would be far more harmful to the child to have them plaster pics of her privates they took while she used the student bathroom everywhere and ridicule her than allow her to use the bathroom that can only be accessed by staff.

So you're saying that some asshole girl might make fun of her that the school should systematically devalue and discriminate against her by forcing her in the wrong restroom where some asshole boy might make fun of her. Yeah, because that makes a lot of sense.

Lil devils x:
Yes I am addressing their genitals, breasts, adams apples, facial and body hair, voice changes, body odor, widening of the hips, muscle tone, excreted fluids, and the many other factors that are determined by ones sex. Kids are cruel, even girls born with a vagina that develop adams apples are ridiculed to the point of becomeing suicidal, I cannot imagine the horror that one with a penis would endure when girls found out she has a penis in this society. She would be tormented by both girls and boys, and I do not think that would be healthy for her well being in any way. The problem is we only have male, female, and hermaphrodite sexes in physical bodies, but in spirit, we have many many degrees in between. Just because one person is one degree more feminine than another in spirit does not mean they should then use the girls toilet. It is the idea they should feel weird in their own body that is the problem here, If they are feminine in spirit and have a penis, they should be proud of being that way, rather than hiding it and be ashamed and want to change themselves to fit what people think they should be.

I'm not seeing where denying her gender identity is curing any of this hate towards her? Because it sounds like you're saying "People hate on transpeople and that's sad, so we should reinforce bigoted world views so that more people grow up to hate on transpeople, because some bigoted girls might become uncomfortable" as if she wouldn't face even worse in the boy's room and that makes no real sense.

Lil devils x:

Silvanus:

Images:
Opinions are equal. Being informed helps but it is still an opinion.

I don't think opinions are equal at all. Some are as thick as a McDonald's milkshake.

The wish to change sexes, for example, is not only harmless in and of itself, but also (with modern science) an attainable goal. I don't think the "opinion" that it is a delusion has any legitimacy, therefore. That opinion is dismissive and ill-informed.

You really should read up on this more, as this could not be further from the truth. Hormone therapy and gender surgery are extremely high risk, and yes, you are risking your life to do so. Whoever gave you the idea that it is harmless has much to learn. Yes, you may become the opposite sex, but yes, it may also be the cause of your death. This is not something ANYONE should consider lightly. It is better to be happy with your great gifts, and your wonderful healthy body than risk your health and your life to change that.

It is well known that these procedures have a high risk for cancer, dementia, stroke, clots, heart attack, urinary incontinence,Non healing wounds,and it wreaks havoc on your immune system. You should really better understand how your systems work together, this may help:

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_reproductive_system_interact_with_others_systems

This is a very dangerous procedure and I would not trust any Physician who tells you otherwise. They should be honest and let people know exactly what they are getting themselves in to.

You're not Coy's medical doctor or therapist, so maybe instead of armchair doctoring this one way and then bitching that we're all armchair doctoring it, you could listen to her therapist?

You're saying "You guys aren't accredited doctors so you shouldn't be deciding this case!" then deciding that somehow makes you accredited to decide this case.

Read the actual opening post: Coy has a therapist and her therapist's recommendation is for her to be recognized by her chosen gender.

micahrp:

What genetically female brain structure? Are they chimeras with two different genetic codes: the body made of XY chromosomes and a brain made of XX chromosomes (that would be too complex a situation for me to even want to address).

Your brain doesn't come from one single gene in your Y chromosome. What are you even going on about?

micahrp:
What structure is that exactly (I guess I need to go back and refind where you detailed that)? An enlarged corpus callosum? Left hand males have that. Different sized glands? Every brain is different sized and ratioed, that doesn't mean people are therefore "naturally" something. A brain is a blank slate that we collect data into and use to create models.

Except it's not, and I don't know why you are claiming it is. And I'm not even sure even if you were right it helps your argument because even if somebody was born a blank slate, point is that now she's no longer a blank slate and identifies as female and denying that is just going to hurt her.

micahrp:
Nice dodge in not addressing outward responsibility from the person of issue if there is an incident where a different student is the victim of knowledge they are not prepared for and thus traumatized or worse in the form on a physical assault up to and including a sexual assault. Please address this now.

So you're basically saying "Bigots are assholes so we should do what they say because they're mean and will frown at us, and sharing ass space on this planet with people who they don't like might hurt their fragile minds?"

Um, too fucking bad?

Lil devils x:
Yes, it is not something to be thought of as "safe to do", even an adult should be given much time to think about before they put themselves through such, and be made fully aware of what can happen. As for those on this thread suggesting having children being put through this they need to better understand what this actually does to the body, and I would think that any physician willing to do this to a child should be jailed and barred from practicing ever again. The purpose of medicine is to save lives, not take them, if they are willing to do this to a child, they have turned from physician to executioner and that has no place in medicine.

You're aware that they don't do sexual reassignment surgeries on children right? Like and nobody is suggesting they should except in an extreme case of something like, a severe injury (which they do already)?

So all this hand wringing would only make sense in a world where children could get a reassignment surgery at the age of 5 or whatever, but that never, ever happens.

Not to mention that, for various reasons or another, not all transsexual people even want a sexual reassignment surgery.

Images:

My point wasn't to slur or offend but it is still a facsimile. The organs are what they are after post op only in that have been manipulated to look like the intended organ. Their functionality for their intended reproductive purpose is not possible.

So what? Plenty of people get surgery to repair injuries to their genitals if they're damaged in some way or another. Hell, there are plenty of people pushing for technology to get surgery to undo damage their parents done to them with anti-circumcision surgery.

But you're basically saying that if somebody suffered an injury that disfigured their face and nose and ears they shouldn't be allowed to get a glass eye or a false nose put back on them because that false eye and nose don't function in any way biologically so they should just get over it and live the rest of their life as some horrible skull monster and deal with how that will effect their life and self esteem because hey, if they got a glass eye they'd just be lying to themselves?

Please recognize how silly you sound.

Images:
Aye, its not my opinion, just needed to point out that they are allowed their own and there is no solid proof either way...unlike global warning (which i'm not going into here...even though Gore was right!)

Um, except there is mountains of evidence and medicine involved here that will show that transsexuals are real and not delusional and not just 'extreme homosexuals', that you're denying.

You don't get to play the "I don't really think this way buuut" get out of bigotry or get out of ignorance free card. Either you agree with this against all scientific evidence otherwise, at which point you're either willfully ignorant or trying to be a bigot, or you're claiming this stuff repeatedly here to be a troll and add nothing to the conversation.

boots:

Lil devils x:

Honestly, I think Coy would be more traumatized than the girls, considering how most teen girls react these days, they are quite cruel. However, I have known some girls who would have been traumatized by that and been in confession and penance, or thought they have somehow sinned and then they would have some irate father ready to tie coy to the back of the truck for exposing himself to his daughter. Guys showing other Guys daughters their junk isn't taken kindly in many regions. Angry fathers don't really care if Coy is gay or not.

All of this in the hypothetical situation that Coy walks out of the stall with her pants around her ankles.

So you think that the possibility of A) a religious kid seeing a penis and having a religious crisis because their parents have convinced them that sex is evil and dirty or B) the crazy rednecks of Fort Carson, Colorado lynching a six year-old for wearing a dress (neither of which are things that have happened or show any signs of happening in this case, but are instead things that you - Random Dude On The Internet #19823 - imagine might happen, despite the fact that the school is pretty progressive and the community has been generally very supportive) are reason enough to ban a girl from using the girls bathroom and force her to use the boys bathroom instead?

Sorry, but since when have we let transphobics dictate how we treat trans people? That doesn't seem like a recipe for success.

The really sad thing is that by letting transphobic people dictate how we treat transpeople both mistreats transpeople (because I'm sorry, a racist person probably doesn't have say, a black person's best interests in mind or whatever), but it also reinforced transphobia and encourages more people to grow up transphobic.

It's the most self defeating thing ever.

Silvanus:

Lil devils x:
SNIP

The thing is, you're right about society's incomprehension that the two sexes aren't all there is. You're right on that mark. But the conclusion you seem to draw from this, that people with gender dysphoria or the intersex should just learn to be happy how they are, is dismissive and reductionist. Gender dysphorics do not simply worry about how society sees them; it can be incredibly personal.

I'm going to go out on a limb here, and assume that you do not have gender dysphoria, and that you are not intersex. That you are, in fact, a cisgendered individual telling those in that condition that their problem isn't legitimate in the way they believe it is.

(To be clear: I do not mean the above to be a personal attack; I recognize that you care very much about child welfare, that's clear from your post above. So, the above is not intended to imply that you're uncaring).

It's also, as I mentioned before, self defeating to go "Oh well, I guess bigots hate me, I better pack my shit and conform!"

If we want a society where transpeople aren't discriminated against, I wager the fastest path towards that isn't going "Well, I feel bad for you, but I don't want to make some bigots frown, so I guess you get to be harmed!"

Damien Granz:

Kathinka:
well..to be fair, i'd be lying if i'd say i wouldn't be a bit uncomfortable with sharing the restroom with a biological boy with male genitalia and all, regardless of as what gender he identifies himself..

Then grow up? Just because somebody is uncomfortable around fat people or black people or whatever doesn't mean you get to be king of waste facilities.

chill your shit man, no need for the unprovoked hostilities. i'm entitled to my opinions just as you are, and going around being a dick to everyone who doesn't share your opinion isn't the way. if you can't have a civil and polite discussion with anyone who thinks differently, then maybe it's you who should grow up.

that being said, a restroom is a place where you are in a kind of awkward, vulnerable position. people have the right to do this kinda awkward business in a reasonably protected space. protected from people whose presence there is socially accepted to be a violation of my privacy there. feeling violated by the presence of people with different skin color or weight is not something that is acceptable. feeling violated by the presence of a biological male while i use the restroom is. deal with it.

Damien Granz:
Jesus Christ, I'm gone for a day and the whole thread basically has devolved into trans and homophobia. I'm done with this for now, I can only handle about 1 page of this at a time.

You should read the entire thread through before blowing off that hot air balloon.
1)Because I didn't like dresses or play with dolls and didn't participate in girl activities and instead identified with boys and did boy activities and have sex with women and find women more sexually appealing than men I should then be using the boys bathroom? That is Bullshit. I was born a girl, just because I don't like what other girls do does not make me any less of a girl. I have breasts, a vagina, an extremely painful period, breast tenderness just like all the other girls, so yes I should be using the girls bathroom.

2) ALL of our bathrooms at school were designated changing areas and 2 of my schools bathrooms were designated shower areas. The way our showers were set up in blocks with only plastic see through shower curtains between them that didn't cover much of anything and the designated changing area was the open shared space with NO PRIVATE SPACES. We changed in front of the lockers in one of the bathrooms (the gym location), in the other area near the auditorium we just only had a sink counter and had to grab stuff from the lockers before we went in there. THAT was what the girls bathrooms at my school were designated FOR.

3) Yes, I busted my ass to get through Medical School and took on a lifetime of student loan debt just to come on here and give armchair medical adivce. This is what I do for a living. If you had read the post that I was responding to by MorRioghain on this thread, yes, I was directly addressing the statement made by MorRioghain that it was the "current standard of care" to start treatement prior to puberty, and I was correcting the very poorly misinformed medical advice statements on this thread suggesting this this is a harmless thing to do to your body, when the reality is it is not, nor should any medication be taken unless it is absolutly necessary to maintain good health. There is nothing wrong with their perfectly healthy bodies that requires medical treatment, the only thing wrong is they lack the confidence and self esteem they require to love themselves for who they are the way they are. That it is healthy and natural to be feminine or masculine in either body, and this should be considered a gift rather than a curse. That is what needs to be changed, it is the society that is sick and needs to be treated, so everyone can flourish. These guys just need to learn to love who they are inside and out.

4)There are physically 3 genders and this society attempts to force them into two, that is the problem here. Other societies who hold transgenders in very high regard do not have the problem of people wishing to harm their bodies in order to change sexes, instead they are proud of who they are, the way they are, because they have been praised for such their entire lives. This only exists in this society due to the prejudice of this society, and could be solved by not changing their sexes, but by changing this society. Trying to force someone into one gender or the other is the problem here and until that is addressed and this society becomes more understanding of the " both" gender, protection of those who could be traumatized by this society should take priority. It is not " safe" for a transgendered person to use either bathroom in the current hostile environment, and since that is impossible to change over night, reducing risks of harm to them must be provided.

5) I am not the one in denial here. LOL I see most refusuing to address that "both" exists, and think that we still need to cram everyone into 2 genders. Telling her she is only a girl when she has a penis isn't doing her any favors. She can be both and be proud she is both. It is perfectly healthy and natural to be both and celebrated by many in this world, just because this particular society does not celebrate this does not mean that it is an actual problem. It is a problem with this society, not with her.

Lil devils x:

Damien Granz:
Jesus Christ, I'm gone for a day and the whole thread basically has devolved into trans and homophobia. I'm done with this for now, I can only handle about 1 page of this at a time.

You should read the entire thread through before blowing off that hot air balloon.

You mean the thread I was commenting in before you found it?

Lil devils x:
1)Because I didn't like dresses or play with dolls and didn't participate in girl activities

Yup, people still confusing gender roles for gender identity, boring. You chastise me for not reading the thread but apparently neither have you because we've talked ad nauseam about this before hand, so you shouldn't be making a mistake like this.

Lil devils x:
and instead identified with boys and did boy activities

Your gender identity isn't defined by who you hang out with any more than a straight man who has a lot of women friends isn't a transwoman, so still don't see where you're going with this.

Lil devils x:
and have sex with women and find women more sexually appealing than men I should then be using the boys bathroom?

Aaaand again, none of this would make you a transman either. It might imply you're a lesbian or bisexual or something, but your sexual orientation doesn't influence your gender identity, because transmen might prefer sex with men, women, both, something else, all of the above or nothing. So what's your point?

Lil devils x:
That is Bullshit.

Yeah, I'd agree it's bullshit because none of those factors you mentioned are your gender identity. So if I was to say you were a transman because you didn't like submissively cooking for a man, or because you preferred to hang out with men, or because you preferred sex with women, I'd be wrong. Good thing nobody but you is suggesting that.

Lil devils x:
I was born a girl, just because I don't like what other girls do does not make me any less of a girl. I have breasts, a vagina, an extremely painful period, breast tenderness just like all the other girls, so yes I should be using the girls bathroom.

Yeah, you're right that you were born the way you are, and that you liking things girls doesn't doesn't make you less of a woman. But maybe you can stop confusing gender roles and biological sex with gender identity for a second, because otherwise you're sounding like an old 1950's PSA about how homosexuals are also pedophiles when those things aren't even remotely related.

Lil devils x:
2) ALL of our bathrooms at school were designated changing areas and 2 of my schools bathrooms were designated shower areas. The way our showers were set up in blocks with only plastic see through shower curtains between them that didn't cover much of anything and the designated changing area was the open shared space with NO PRIVATE SPACES. We changed in front of the lockers in one of the bathrooms (the gym location), in the other area near the auditorium we just only had a sink counter and had to grab stuff from the lockers before we went in there. THAT was what the girls bathrooms at my school were designated FOR.

I don't think I'd really care if whatever school you went to had one giant toilet everybody had to sit around to take to take a dump at once at. That's not a good excuse for the school not setting up stalls or respecting the privacy of its student's bodies, or a good excuse for transphobia or homophobia.

Lil devils x:
3) Yes, I busted my ass to get through Medical School and took on a lifetime of student loan debt just to come on here and give armchair medical advice. This is what I do for a living. If you had read the post that I was responding to by MorRioghain on this thread, yes, I was directly addressing the statement made by MorRioghain that it was the "current standard of care" to start treatment prior to puberty, and I was correcting the very poorly misinformed medical advice statements on this thread suggesting this this is a harmless thing to do to your body, when the reality is it is not, nor should any medication be taken unless it is absolutely necessary to maintain good health.

Oh, ok. Some random anonymous person on the internet allegedly with a degree in "Argumentative Forum Studies[1]" gets to redefine all of psychology for the rest of everybody else. Well, I'm the king of France and I state that the DSM-V and almost all professional psychologists and almost all doctors recognize transgender people and this kid's therapist recognizes her transgenderism and has, and pretty rightfully so, suggested that she transition socially into his proper identity as a girl. Maybe you can talk to some actual goddamn transpeople for once on the issue, instead of deciding like you always do that reality revolves around your own personal limited folksy Texan anecdotes.

Lil devils x:
There is nothing wrong with their perfectly healthy bodies that requires medical treatment, the only thing wrong is they lack the confidence and self esteem they require to love themselves for who they are the way they are.

They are trying to love themselves for who they are, and who they are isn't who their body says they 'should' be, the same as who you are isn't heterosexual even though your body evolved for sex with men, and anybody, including yourself, who can't or won't love you for that total package of you including your sexuality, isn't loving you for who you are period. They are not the same gender that their body suggests in the same way that your sexuality isn't. Get over it. You can't claim to love somebody for who they are, then ask them to change themselves to conform to how you want them to be, and you can't claim to ask them to love themselves for who they are, then ask them to change themselves to how you want them to be. If you want them to love themselves for who they are, and if you want them to gain confidence and self esteem, accept that they are transgendered, and do your best to accept all that comes with it.

Otherwise, stop talking about loving them as people.

Lil devils x:
That it is healthy and natural to be feminine or masculine in either body, and this should be considered a gift rather than a curse. That is what needs to be changed, it is the society that is sick and needs to be treated, so everyone can flourish. These guys just need to learn to love who they are inside and out.

You saying this kind of pisses me off a bit because you're part of the society that refuses to accept them talking about how society is terrible and should accept them. Exactly like stupid ass 'pro family' people that try to deny people the ability to start and have a stable family while claiming to protect family as some sort of weird Orwellian disguise for bigotry.

Please understand this: If you want a society where everybody can flourish, then you have to accept that these people are the way they are and stop trying to change them to how you feel they should be. You can't blame 'society' for being sick while perpetuating that illness.

Lil devils x:
4)There are physically 3 genders

Actually there's a lot more than 3 genders or 3 sexes, but I'll let you continue...

Lil devils x:
and this society attempts to force them into two, that is the problem here.

Yeah, that can be a problem for people who's sex or gender don't fit into a binary male or female. But the problem here isn't that Coy isn't identifying as either male or female. The problem here is that you're refusing to accept her identity, period so she fits in your own boxes, however enlightened I'm sure you feel they are.

Lil devils x:
Other societies who hold transgenders in very high regard do not have the problem of people wishing to harm their bodies in order to change sexes, instead they are proud of who they are, the way they are, because they have been praised for such their entire lives. This only exists in this society due to the prejudice of this society, and could be solved by not changing their sexes, but by changing this society. Trying to force someone into one gender or the other is the problem here and until that is addressed and this society becomes more understanding of the " both" gender, protection of those who could be traumatized by this society should take priority.

Lil devils x:
5) I am not the one in denial here. LOL I see most refusuing to address that "both" exists, and think that we still need to cram everyone into 2 genders. Telling her she is only a girl when she has a penis isn't doing her any favors. She can be both and be proud she is both.

Yeah, she can be both, maybe if that's what she feels, but that's not the case.

Not everybody who is transsexual fits in the 'both' gender box you've made though! You need to learn this. You aren't fixing the problem by replacing 2 harmful boxes with 3.

Lil devils x:
It is not " safe" for a transgendered person to use either bathroom in the current hostile environment, and since that is impossible to change over night, reducing risks of harm to them must be provided.

And you need to learn this: Replacing one harmful environment with one that's twice as harmful because the twice as harmful environment is the staus quo isn't any goddamn better!

It becomes impossible to change that hostile environment period if your idea of changing it is to keep it in place.

[1] One would think if you're going to take a lifetime of debt for a degree it be in a field that actively might pay you for something rather than arguing over an internet forum

I'd say the school is within their rights to tell him to use the men's room.

If it's a question of causing people discomfort, it'd be better to cause discomfort to one person than to multiple people, wouldn't it?

boots:

Relish in Chaos:
How is forcing a transgendered girl to use a boy's bathroom any less awkward than forcing them to use a girl's bathroom (since, this may just be based on stereotypes, girls are on average more accepting of transgendered girls than boys)?

Allow me to rephrase this question for you.

"How is forcing a girl to use a boy's bathroom any less awkward than forcing them to use a girl's bathroom?"

Do you see why it might be a bit of a problem?

I feel like giving up on this thread. So many people here are stuck in the mentality of "OK, transgendered girls are girls, but they're not really girls, are they? Not in any way that matters or should be accepted." It's starting to feel a bit pointless trying to educate people who have zero interest in learning, and who just want transgendered people to go away and stop all this "my gender doesn't match my sex" silliness.

Wow guys, I'm so sorry that someone else's gender dysphoria is confusing or uncomfortable for you.

I think you misunderstood what I was saying. I only added the "transgender" part because kids can be mean, but chances are they'll be even meaner if the person in question is transgender. The boys that she may encounter in the boys' bathroom, if she's so forced to enter there, might see her as just "that weird boy with purple hair who likes to dress up as a girl" and, therefore, pin him as an easy bullying target.

Basically, my point is that a transgendered girl using a boy's bathroom would just be more awkward than using a girl's bathroom, since the latter would be with people with a gender she actually shares. It's got nothing to do with genitalia, a part of your body that others won't see 99% of the time because they all do it in stalls. Bathrooms aren't a public forum for people to put on their make-up and talk. You go in, do your business, wash your hands, and go out. If girls want to talk about stuff, then they shouldn't do it in a place designed for excreting waste, and instead do it at break, lunchtime, and/or outside school hours.

DJjaffacake:

boots:

Relish in Chaos:
How is forcing a transgendered girl to use a boy's bathroom any less awkward than forcing them to use a girl's bathroom (since, this may just be based on stereotypes, girls are on average more accepting of transgendered girls than boys)?

Allow me to rephrase this question for you.

"How is forcing a girl to use a boy's bathroom any less awkward than forcing them to use a girl's bathroom?"

Do you see why it might be a bit of a problem?

I feel like giving up on this thread. So many people here are stuck in the mentality of "OK, transgendered girls are girls, but they're not really girls, are they? Not in any way that matters or should be accepted." It's starting to feel a bit pointless trying to educate people who have zero interest in learning, and who just want transgendered people to go away and stop all this "my gender doesn't match my sex" silliness.

Wow guys, I'm so sorry that someone else's gender dysphoria is confusing or uncomfortable for you.

I think you misunderstood him. I may be wrong, but if I understood him correctly, he was saying that the argument that, "It would be awkward to have someone with male genitals in the girls' bathroom," could easily be turned around to say, "It would be awkward to have someone who is mentally a girl in the boys' bathroom." In other words, I'm pretty sure he agrees with you.

Yes, this.

Damien Granz:

Lil devils x:
4)There are physically 3 genders

Actually there's a lot more than 3 genders or 3 sexes, but I'll let you continue...

Could you elaborate on this, please? Either here or in a PM, if you prefer it to be private? Not because I disagree with you or anything, but the most genders or sexes that I'd heard of were male, female, and intersex, all of which being on a scale of hormones that determine gender, sex, identity, expression, and sexuality.

wom·an
1. the female human being ( distinguished from man ).
2. an adult female person.
3. a female attendant to a lady of rank.
4. a wife.
5. the nature, characteristics, or feelings often attributed to women; womanliness.

fe·male
1.a person bearing two X chromosomes in the cell nuclei and normally having a vagina, a uterus and ovaries, and developing at puberty a relatively rounded body and enlarged breasts, and retaining a beardless face; a girl or woman.
2.an organism of the sex or sexual phase that normally produces egg cells.

I don't know if its against forum rules to copy/paste without comment, but I dont want to add any opinions here, just let the definitions speak for themselves.

Lil devils x:
1)Because I didn't like dresses or play with dolls and didn't participate in girl activities and instead identified with boys and did boy activities and have sex with women and find women more sexually appealing than men I should then be using the boys bathroom? That is Bullshit. I was born a girl, just because I don't like what other girls do does not make me any less of a girl. I have breasts, a vagina, an extremely painful period, breast tenderness just like all the other girls, so yes I should be using the girls bathroom.

You have a fundamental misunderstanding of what being transgender is all about. You're confusing gender identity and gender expression.
Here is a helpful graphic that might clear up some your confusion:
image

3) Yes, I busted my ass to get through Medical School and took on a lifetime of student loan debt just to come on here and give armchair medical adivce. This is what I do for a living. If you had read the post that I was responding to by MorRioghain on this thread, yes, I was directly addressing the statement made by MorRioghain that it was the "current standard of care" to start treatement prior to puberty, and I was correcting the very poorly misinformed medical advice statements on this thread suggesting this this is a harmless thing to do to your body, when the reality is it is not, nor should any medication be taken unless it is absolutly necessary to maintain good health. There is nothing wrong with their perfectly healthy bodies that requires medical treatment, the only thing wrong is they lack the confidence and self esteem they require to love themselves for who they are the way they are. That it is healthy and natural to be feminine or masculine in either body, and this should be considered a gift rather than a curse. That is what needs to be changed, it is the society that is sick and needs to be treated, so everyone can flourish. These guys just need to learn to love who they are inside and out.

So did you study to be a psychologist who specializes in trans issues? (I sure hope you're not) It's not because you have "a" medical degree that you are an expert on all things vaguely medical related.
And these treatments are needed to maintain a good health. People with genderdysphoria, who go untreated often develop severe depression and anxiety disorders. This can result in being unable to function in society, engaging in selfmutilation and self medication, or suicide. (transgender people have one of the highest rates of attempted suicide, numbering about 4 in 10.)
Therapy is an integral part of the entire treatment process and helps transgender people better accept who they are (aka being trans rather than cis). Repressive therapy (which you seem to be advocating here) has been tried in the past and it doesn't work.

As for starting the treatment before puberty, there are reasons for this. First of all, puberty is partly irreversible. If the treatment is only started after the "natural" puberty it will be less effective, causing unnecesary discomfort to the transgender person. It will also result in more stigma due to their more atypical appearance, thus resulting in more hate and bigotry going their way. Secondly forcing someone to go through a puberty they absolutely don't want is a traumatic experience.

Relish in Chaos:

Damien Granz:

Lil devils x:
4)There are physically 3 genders

Actually there's a lot more than 3 genders or 3 sexes, but I'll let you continue...

Could you elaborate on this, please? Either here or in a PM, if you prefer it to be private? Not because I disagree with you or anything, but the most genders or sexes that I'd heard of were male, female, and intersex, all of which being on a scale of hormones that determine gender, sex, identity, expression, and sexuality.

As for sexes it's quite simple: intersex is just a groupname for a plethora of intersex conditions. Just search wikipedia for intersex, it gives a good explanation and lists some of the different conditions.
As for genders (this is just of the top of my sleep-depraved head): male, female, agender, bigender, twospirit, genderqueer, third gender, neutrois, third gender, third+female, third+male, trigender.

Everything, as far as government stuff is concerned, is based on sex. No matter what he wants to be, Cory is a male. So the school is in the right here.

Saladfork:
I'd say the school is within their rights to tell him to use the men's room.

If it's a question of causing people discomfort, it'd be better to cause discomfort to one person than to multiple people, wouldn't it?

So I guess racism or whatever is cool as long as there's a lot of uncomfortable bigots around? Please.

Relish in Chaos:

Damien Granz:

Lil devils x:
4)There are physically 3 genders

Actually there's a lot more than 3 genders or 3 sexes, but I'll let you continue...

Could you elaborate on this, please? Either here or in a PM, if you prefer it to be private? Not because I disagree with you or anything, but the most genders or sexes that I'd heard of were male, female, and intersex, all of which being on a scale of hormones that determine gender, sex, identity, expression, and sexuality.

Another poster (MorRioghain) got to it before me, but yes, 'intersex' is a sort of catch-all term for any body set up that doesn't fit in a male/female binary and isn't in itself a distinct third sex.

MorRioghain:

So did you study to be a psychologist who specializes in trans issues? (I sure hope you're not) It's not because you have "a" medical degree that you are an expert on all things vaguely medical related.
And these treatments are needed to maintain a good health. People with gender dysphoria, who go untreated often develop severe depression and anxiety disorders. This can result in being unable to function in society, engaging in self mutilation and self medication, or suicide. (transgender people have one of the highest rates of attempted suicide, numbering about 4 in 10.)
Therapy is an integral part of the entire treatment process and helps transgender people better accept who they are (aka being trans rather than cis). Repressive therapy (which you seem to be advocating here) has been tried in the past and it doesn't work.

As for starting the treatment before puberty, there are reasons for this. First of all, puberty is partly irreversible. If the treatment is only started after the "natural" puberty it will be less effective, causing unnecessary discomfort to the transgender person. It will also result in more stigma due to their more atypical appearance, thus resulting in more hate and bigotry going their way. Secondly forcing someone to go through a puberty they absolutely don't want is a traumatic experience.

I want to address this briefly: No sexual reassignment surgery is ever done to somebody before they reach puberty. What you're thinking of and what Devils is complaining about probably aren't the same thing. What you're talking about is a chemical treatment that is as easily reversed as 'stop doing it', and mostly harmless. What she's referring to is surgical body alteration which isn't done on children.

Shadowstar38:
Everything, as far as government stuff is concerned, is based on sex. No matter what he wants to be, Cory is a male. So the school is in the right here.

Except the government actually says that Coy is female and that discrimination against her is illegal in her state, and it's not the government doing it. So, as far as the 'government stuff is concerned' it's apparently not based on sex assigned at birth.

cthulhuspawn82:
wom·an
1. the female human being ( distinguished from man ).
2. an adult female person.
3. a female attendant to a lady of rank.
4. a wife.
5. the nature, characteristics, or feelings often attributed to women; womanliness.

fe·male
1.a person bearing two X chromosomes in the cell nuclei and normally having a vagina, a uterus and ovaries, and developing at puberty a relatively rounded body and enlarged breasts, and retaining a beardless face; a girl or woman.
2.an organism of the sex or sexual phase that normally produces egg cells.

I don't know if its against forum rules to copy/paste without comment, but I dont want to add any opinions here, just let the definitions speak for themselves.

Translation:

"The concepts in this thread are haaaaaard to understand. Dems got long words in dem. Me no like learn new things. Look dictionary say female so I win! Ha ha!"

Fine by me if you're incapable of participating in an intelligent discussion of gender theory. If you're going to "let the [outdated] definitions speak for themselves" (since the meanings of words never evolve or become more refined, not ever) then I presume that means you're abandoning the thread with the same old misguided transphobic views you had when you entered it. I trust you are now going off into the world to tell more trans people that they're not really men/women and they should just stop kidding themselves.

Whatever. I gave you more than enough information and you chose to ignore it rather than consider adjusting your perspective one iota to make the world a slightly better place for people who are different to you. Hope you feel good about that.

Boys identifying as girls should not be allowed to use girls facilities. What's stopping any guy from declaring himself a female when he hits puberty to get access to the girls locker room?

Furthermore, somebody who is a boy is not a girl. Once a person with such a delusion is an adult, it is appropriate to allow them to go through a surgery to make that change. It should not be encouraged in children though.

boots:

cthulhuspawn82:
wom·an
1. the female human being ( distinguished from man ).
2. an adult female person.
3. a female attendant to a lady of rank.
4. a wife.
5. the nature, characteristics, or feelings often attributed to women; womanliness.

fe·male
1.a person bearing two X chromosomes in the cell nuclei and normally having a vagina, a uterus and ovaries, and developing at puberty a relatively rounded body and enlarged breasts, and retaining a beardless face; a girl or woman.
2.an organism of the sex or sexual phase that normally produces egg cells.

I don't know if its against forum rules to copy/paste without comment, but I dont want to add any opinions here, just let the definitions speak for themselves.

Translation:

"The concepts in this thread are haaaaaard to understand. Dems got long words in dem. Me no like learn new things. Look dictionary say female so I win! Ha ha!"

Fine by me if you're incapable of participating in an intelligent discussion of gender theory. If you're going to "let the [outdated] definitions speak for themselves" (since the meanings of words never evolve or become more refined, not ever) then I presume that means you're abandoning the thread with the same old misguided transphobic views you had when you entered it. I trust you are now going off into the world to tell more trans people that they're not really men/women and they should just stop kidding themselves.

Whatever. I gave you more than enough information and you chose to ignore it rather than consider adjusting your perspective one iota to make the world a slightly better place for people who are different to you. Hope you feel good about that.

So its come to this, you are actually disagreeing with the dictionary.

The problem is that you cant use the accepted terms. I understand the definitions of transgender, gender identity, and etc., but I don't think you do. You insist that people like the boy in the OP are Women. Not transgenders or males with female gender identity, but full on Women, and that is obviously wrong.

trans·gen·der
1.a person appearing or attempting to be a member of the opposite sex, as a transsexual or habitual cross-dresser.

gender identity
a person's inner sense of being male or female, usually developed during early childhood as a result of parental rearing practices and societal influences and strengthened during puberty by hormonal changes.

Damien Granz:

Lil devils x:

Damien Granz:
Jesus Christ, I'm gone for a day and the whole thread basically has devolved into trans and homophobia. I'm done with this for now, I can only handle about 1 page of this at a time.

You should read the entire thread through before blowing off that hot air balloon.

MorRioghain:
[quote="Lil devils x" post="528.402128.16604157"]

There appears to be some confusion here. Transgender and transexual are Two different things.
Transgender does not change into another sex, transexual does.
This should better clarify that for you:
http://www.diffen.com/difference/Transgender_vs_Transsexual

Second and most important here in regards to medication given to CHILDREN:
1) A psychologist is NOT a medical doctor, and cannot give MEDICAL treatment, nor should they, you should see a medical doctor to handle medication.A psychologist did not attend medical school and is not educated on medication effects on the human body. (Side note: In fact Most physicians are not aware of the effects of the medication they are prescribing, and you should always ask questions and research the medications you are prescribed yourself to ensure you are being properly treated.)
This should clarify that for you:
http://www.webmd.com/mental-health/features/psychology-vs-psychiatry-which-is-better
Also in regards to that article, you should not trust medication being prescribed by what we like to call " pill farms" in the industry, where you have the only one qualified to write a script only sees the patient for a few minutes and then writes a script that was prescribed by an unqualified member of their staff. You should seek a second opinion, or consult with your primary care physician, or even better, have a primary care physician that is an Internal Medicine Doctor before taking such medication.
The difference between these physicians:
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Whats_the_difference_between_a_family_doctor_and_internal_medicine_doctor
http://www.acponline.org/patients_families/about_internal_medicine/
2)Chilren should be treated by Pediatricians, and ONLY someone who has studied in pediatric medicine should prescribe Medication to children.
http://www.webmd.com/baby/what-is-a-pediatrician

My chosen fields of study were Immunology and Pedatric Medicine, and yes, I can tell you from my experience, that Medication should only be taken when it is required, instead we should strive to strengthen our immune systems to ensure good health, rather than break them down by over medicating and causing unecessary harm to ourselves. Yes, I do take issue with those who do not understand the impact that these medications have on a persons health, and too often I have seen so-called "Doctors" not only prescribing medication that is harmful to the patients health they are often so wreckless as to prescribe dangerous combinations of medications that should never be prescribed to the same person. even if a medication does not have a direct " drug interaction" what it does in your body and to your immune system can be quite serious. You should understand that there is no part of your body that is " JUST an organ", each plays a role and interacts with your other systems. Though I posted this earlier in this thread, your reproductive systems ineract with your other systems and changing that means you also impact your other systems and this causes other issues as well that have to be addressed.
This should help:
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_reproductive_system_interact_with_others_systems

Hormone Therapy is not harmless, and should not be prescribed unless absolutely necessary. You should understand the role your hormones play in your immune system.
This should help clarify that:
http://immunedisorders.homestead.com/hormones.html

I will go into this further when I have time.

2012 Wont Happen:
Boys identifying as girls should not be allowed to use girls facilities. What's stopping any guy from declaring himself a female when he hits puberty to get access to the girls locker room?

You would know the answer to this question if you'd bothered to read the thread. Too much effort, huh?

Shadowstar38:
Everything, as far as government stuff is concerned, is based on sex. No matter what he wants to be, Cory is a male. So the school is in the right here.

Wow, and this poster cares so much about the plight of the transgendered girl that they can't be bothered to get her name right, let alone her pronoun.

Damien Granz:
Jesus Christ, I'm gone for a day and the whole thread basically has devolved into trans and homophobia. I'm done with this for now, I can only handle about 1 page of this at a time.

Tell me about it. This has been like walking into a thread where people loudly opine on how blacks shouldn't really be allowed to mix with white people in case their dark skin makes people feel uncomfortable. With occasions of people debating over whether or not ethnic minorities still count as humans.

I just can't understand the mentality of being so opposed to letting someone be acknowledged as a woman or a man, purely because of some organ between their legs that's covered up most of the time anyway. It's so weirdly selfish and petty. It's not like you're in some kind of exclusive club; if you're a man or a woman then there are about 3.5 billion people on the planet - in 3.5 billion different shapes and sizes - but you want to keep trans people out because ... why? Because it's more comfortable for you if they're forced into a role and a set of behaviours that don't come naturally to them at all? I can - and have - shoved scientific studies under people's noses showing trans women have the same brains as biological females and trans men have the same brains as biological men, and this has been stubbornly and studiously ignored. If you really think that what makes you a person is what lies between your legs, rather than what's between your ears, then I feel sorry for you.

For all those people who take that viewpoint, here is a 17 year-old with more maturity than you.

Lil devils x:

Damien Granz:

Lil devils x:

You should read the entire thread through before blowing off that hot air balloon.

MorRioghain:
[quote="Lil devils x" post="528.402128.16604157"]

There appears to be some confusion here. Transgender and transexual are Two different things.
Transgender does not change into another sex, transexual does.
This should better clarify that for you:
http://www.diffen.com/difference/Transgender_vs_Transsexual

Second and most important here in regards to medication given to CHILDREN:
1) A psychologist is NOT a medical doctor, and cannot give MEDICAL treatment, nor should they, you should see a medical doctor to handle medication.A psychologist did not attend medical school and is not educated on medication effects on the human body. (Side note: In fact Most physicians are not aware of the effects of the medication they are prescribing, and you should always ask questions and research the medications you are prescribed yourself to ensure you are being properly treated.)
This should clarify that for you:
http://www.webmd.com/mental-health/features/psychology-vs-psychiatry-which-is-better
Also in regards to that article, you should not trust medication being prescribed by what we like to call " pill farms" in the industry, where you have the only one qualified to write a script only sees the patient for a few minutes and then writes a script that was prescribed by an unqualified member of their staff. You should seek a second opinion, or consult with your primary care physician, or even better, have a primary care physician that is an Internal Medicine Doctor before taking such medication.
The difference between these physicians:
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Whats_the_difference_between_a_family_doctor_and_internal_medicine_doctor
http://www.acponline.org/patients_families/about_internal_medicine/
2)Chilren should be treated by Pediatricians, and ONLY someone who has studied in pediatric medicine should prescribe Medication to children.
http://www.webmd.com/baby/what-is-a-pediatrician

My chosen fields of study were Immunology and Pedatric Medicine, and yes, I can tell you from my experience, that Medication should only be taken when it is required, instead we should strive to strengthen our immune systems to ensure good health, rather than break them down by over medicating and causing unecessary harm to ourselves. Yes, I do take issue with those who do not understand the impact that these medications have on a persons health, and too often I have seen so-called "Doctors" not only prescribing medication that is harmful to the patients health they are often so wreckless as to prescribe dangerous combinations of medications that should never be prescribed to the same person. even if a medication does not have a direct " drug interaction" what it does in your body and to your immune system can be quite serious. You should understand that there is no part of your body that is " JUST an organ", each plays a role and interacts with your other systems. Though I posted this earlier in this thread, your reproductive systems ineract with your other systems and changing that means you also impact your other systems and this causes other issues as well that have to be addressed.
This should help:
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_reproductive_system_interact_with_others_systems

Hormone Therapy is not harmless, and should not be prescribed unless absolutely necessary. You should understand the role your hormones play in your immune system.
This should help clarify that:
http://immunedisorders.homestead.com/hormones.html

I will go into this further when I have time.

That article does not specify if the patients are Natural born females or trans-females, which in the trans-female case

might be different since they have male levels of test/est. Also that source states that one of the reason that HRT is

dangerous is because of dosage. The article goes on to state how women should mantain "normal" levels of estrogen which

to my understanding Trans women do by seeing a specialist in that area. Many transgender communities have such

references and if Coy's parents were concerned about safety they could easily seek one out. It also stated that use of

artifical progesterone was bad, which I might agree, however transgender women do not have to take that, and usually do

not for there there are no visual benefit from taking it. That source also does not address the effects of Hormone

blockers on children, but on adult's suffering from prostate cancer also referencing within the source the blocker being

flutamide, to which my information, transpeople do not use commonly. I believe the common form of hormone blocker for

transgender women is Spironolactone (Aldactone). The only argument I guess one could make against HRT is if it was done

against Coy's will, since she should have a choice in what she puts in her body, any HRT can cause increased liver

damage, but one can make that statement on taking ANY medication for a long time, since your liver is going to have to

process it...

http://www.transgendercare.com/medical/resources/tmf_program/tmf_program_5.asp

cthulhuspawn82:

boots:

cthulhuspawn82:
wom·an
1. the female human being ( distinguished from man ).
2. an adult female person.
3. a female attendant to a lady of rank.
4. a wife.
5. the nature, characteristics, or feelings often attributed to women; womanliness.

fe·male
1.a person bearing two X chromosomes in the cell nuclei and normally having a vagina, a uterus and ovaries, and developing at puberty a relatively rounded body and enlarged breasts, and retaining a beardless face; a girl or woman.
2.an organism of the sex or sexual phase that normally produces egg cells.

I don't know if its against forum rules to copy/paste without comment, but I dont want to add any opinions here, just let the definitions speak for themselves.

Translation:

"The concepts in this thread are haaaaaard to understand. Dems got long words in dem. Me no like learn new things. Look dictionary say female so I win! Ha ha!"

Fine by me if you're incapable of participating in an intelligent discussion of gender theory. If you're going to "let the [outdated] definitions speak for themselves" (since the meanings of words never evolve or become more refined, not ever) then I presume that means you're abandoning the thread with the same old misguided transphobic views you had when you entered it. I trust you are now going off into the world to tell more trans people that they're not really men/women and they should just stop kidding themselves.

Whatever. I gave you more than enough information and you chose to ignore it rather than consider adjusting your perspective one iota to make the world a slightly better place for people who are different to you. Hope you feel good about that.

So its come to this, you are actually disagreeing with the dictionary.

The problem is that you cant use the accepted terms. I understand the definitions of transgender, gender identity, and etc., but I don't think you do. You insist that people like the boy in the OP are Women. Not transgenders or males with female gender identity, but full on Women, and that is obviously wrong.

trans·gen·der
1.a person appearing or attempting to be a member of the opposite sex, as a transsexual or habitual cross-dresser.

gender identity
a person's inner sense of being male or female, usually developed during early childhood as a result of parental rearing practices and societal influences and strengthened during puberty by hormonal changes.

No offence, but I would like to see a source for those quotes, as they seem pretty specfic and convient to your

argument, which could also be a product of confirmation bias; I do not think it is proper to only cite one defenition of

a word and use it as the end-be-all defention. I could gather some defeintions from a quick google search myself and

find counterexamples, although I guess you could equally acuusse me of confirmation bias.

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1)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woman

A woman (/ˈwʊmən/), pl: women (/ˈwɪmɨn/) is a female human. The term woman is usually reserved for an adult, with the term girl being the usual term for a female child or adolescent. However, the term woman is also sometimes used to identify a female human, regardless of age, as in phrases such as "Women's rights". Women are typically capable of giving birth, though older women who have gone through Menopause, some intersex women, and transgender women are not.

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2)
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/woman

wom·an (wmn)
n. pl. wom·en (wmn)
1. An adult female human.
2. Women considered as a group; womankind: "Woman feels the invidious distinctions of sex exactly as the black man does those of color" (Elizabeth Cady Stanton).
3. An adult female human belonging to a specified occupation, group, nationality, or other category. Often used in combination: an Englishwoman; congresswoman; a saleswoman.
4. Feminine quality or aspect; womanliness.
5. A female servant or subordinate.
6. Informal
a. A wife.
b. A female lover or sweetheart. See Usage Notes at lady, man, person.
Idioms:
(one's) own woman
Independent in judgment or action: She has always been her own woman.
to a woman
Without exception.

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3)
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/woman
Definition of WOMAN
1
a : an adult female person
b : a woman belonging to a particular category (as by birth, residence, membership, or occupation) -usually used in combination <councilwoman>
2
: womankind
3
: distinctively feminine nature : womanliness
4
: a woman who is a servant or personal attendant
5
a chiefly dialect : wife
b : mistress
c : girlfriend 2

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4)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female

Female (♀) is the sex of an organism, or a part of an organism, which produces non-mobile ova (egg cells). Most female mammals, including human females, have two X chromosomes.

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5)
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/female

fe·male
[fee-meyl] Show IPA
noun
1.
a person bearing two X chromosomes in the cell nuclei and normally having a vagina, a uterus and ovaries, and developing at puberty a relatively rounded body and enlarged breasts, and retaining a beardless face; a girl or woman.
2.
an organism of the sex or sexual phase that normally produces egg cells.
3.
Botany . a pistillate plant.
adjective
4.
of, pertaining to, or being a female animal or plant.
5.
of, pertaining to, or characteristic of a female person; feminine: female suffrage; female charm.
6.
composed of females: a female readership.
7.
Botany .
a.
designating or pertaining to a plant or its reproductive structure that produces or contains elements requiring fertilization.
b.
(of seed plants) pistillate.
8.
Machinery . being or having a recessed part into which a corresponding part fits: a female plug. Compare male ( def 5 ) .

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6)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Male

A male (♂) organism is the physiological sex which produces sperm. Each spermatozoon can fuse with a larger female gamete or ovum, in the process of fertilization. A male cannot reproduce sexually without access to at least one ovum from a female, but some organisms can reproduce both sexually and asexually. Most male mammals, including male humans, have a Y chromosome, which codes for the production of larger amounts of testosterone to develop male reproductive organs.

Not all species share a common sex-determination system. In most animals, including humans, sex is determined genetically, but in some species it can be determined due to social, environmental or other factors.

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Given these definitions of women and female, one could argue that trans-women are female via source 1) "transgender

women" , where they include the mention of trans women in the definition. 2) "4. Feminine quality or aspect;

womanliness." ,& 3) "3: distinctively feminine nature : womanliness". 5. of, pertaining to, or characteristic of a

female person; feminine: female suffrage; female charm. Since transgender women have the aspect of being feminine by

their self identification as a women these definitions works. 4) Female (♀) is the sex of an organism, or a part of an

organism, which produces non-mobile ova (egg cells). Most female mammals, including human females, have two X

chromosomes. This one is a bit more tricky, since they define sex as the part of the organism that "produces non-mobile

ova(egg cells)" although trans-women do not produced egg cells, nor , for the most part, have "two X chromosomes"

neither do some natural born women either, and yet they still get referred to as women, even though they are sexually,

useless, which is the focus of the definition. Therefore, I do not see it being very accurate, as through Hormone

replacement therapy or sexual reassignment surgery, a transgender women would lose her male fertility, which would make

her ineligible for the male definition as well. Since the transgender person would be lacking sexual function in both

male and female regards, and since the spirit of the word sex involves reproductive capabilities, then it would be more

fitting to call them a hermaphrodite or inter-sexed to a degree,as would it natural born women who lost their sexual

function or lack it. And in dealing with inter-sexed people, they usually get to choose what they want to be seen as due

to their sexual ambiguity. so I do not see why transgender / transsexual should not be afforded the same respect? The

only reason I could see to refer to a trans person as their birth sex, when they are attempting to present themselves to

the contrary is that you would want to reference their past living as a male, which is irrelevant unless you are their

doctor ,or are going to attempt a child with them. Even then, that still would not let you accurately define them as

male, since we usually do not define things as they were, but what they are. For example, I was a child when I was

younger, and I had black hair, now I am an adult with red hair. Would it make sense to refer to me as the child with

black hair in public scenario's, or the adult with red hair?

Rosiv:

Lil devils x:

Damien Granz:

MorRioghain:
[quote="Lil devils x" post="528.402128.16604157"]

There appears to be some confusion here. Transgender and transexual are Two different things.
Transgender does not change into another sex, transexual does.
This should better clarify that for you:
http://www.diffen.com/difference/Transgender_vs_Transsexual

Second and most important here in regards to medication given to CHILDREN:
1) A psychologist is NOT a medical doctor, and cannot give MEDICAL treatment, nor should they, you should see a medical doctor to handle medication.A psychologist did not attend medical school and is not educated on medication effects on the human body. (Side note: In fact Most physicians are not aware of the effects of the medication they are prescribing, and you should always ask questions and research the medications you are prescribed yourself to ensure you are being properly treated.)
This should clarify that for you:
http://www.webmd.com/mental-health/features/psychology-vs-psychiatry-which-is-better
Also in regards to that article, you should not trust medication being prescribed by what we like to call " pill farms" in the industry, where you have the only one qualified to write a script only sees the patient for a few minutes and then writes a script that was prescribed by an unqualified member of their staff. You should seek a second opinion, or consult with your primary care physician, or even better, have a primary care physician that is an Internal Medicine Doctor before taking such medication.
The difference between these physicians:
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Whats_the_difference_between_a_family_doctor_and_internal_medicine_doctor
http://www.acponline.org/patients_families/about_internal_medicine/
2)Chilren should be treated by Pediatricians, and ONLY someone who has studied in pediatric medicine should prescribe Medication to children.
http://www.webmd.com/baby/what-is-a-pediatrician

My chosen fields of study were Immunology and Pedatric Medicine, and yes, I can tell you from my experience, that Medication should only be taken when it is required, instead we should strive to strengthen our immune systems to ensure good health, rather than break them down by over medicating and causing unecessary harm to ourselves. Yes, I do take issue with those who do not understand the impact that these medications have on a persons health, and too often I have seen so-called "Doctors" not only prescribing medication that is harmful to the patients health they are often so wreckless as to prescribe dangerous combinations of medications that should never be prescribed to the same person. even if a medication does not have a direct " drug interaction" what it does in your body and to your immune system can be quite serious. You should understand that there is no part of your body that is " JUST an organ", each plays a role and interacts with your other systems. Though I posted this earlier in this thread, your reproductive systems ineract with your other systems and changing that means you also impact your other systems and this causes other issues as well that have to be addressed.
This should help:
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_reproductive_system_interact_with_others_systems

Hormone Therapy is not harmless, and should not be prescribed unless absolutely necessary. You should understand the role your hormones play in your immune system.
This should help clarify that:
http://immunedisorders.homestead.com/hormones.html

I will go into this further when I have time.

That article does not specify if the patients are Natural born females or trans-females, which in the trans-female case

might be different since they have male levels of test/est. Also that source states that one of the reason that HRT is

dangerous is because of dosage. The article goes on to state how women should mantain "normal" levels of estrogen which

to my understanding Trans women do by seeing a specialist in that area. Many transgender communities have such

references and if Coy's parents were concerned about safety they could easily seek one out. It also stated that use of

artifical progesterone was bad, which I might agree, however transgender women do not have to take that, and usually do

not for there there are no visual benefit from taking it. That source also does not address the effects of Hormone

blockers on children, but on adult's suffering from prostate cancer also referencing within the source the blocker being

flutamide, to which my information, transpeople do not use commonly. I believe the common form of hormone blocker for

transgender women is Spironolactone (Aldactone). The only argument I guess one could make against HRT is if it was done

against Coy's will, since she should have a choice in what she puts in her body, any HRT can cause increased liver

damage, but one can make that statement on taking ANY medication for a long time, since your liver is going to have to

process it...

http://www.transgendercare.com/medical/resources/tmf_program/tmf_program_5.asp

I am short for time atm, but you should understand there are simply not enough studies in this area to determine the long term health effects on children. Basically, the children undergoing this treatment now are the "guinea pigs" and yes, you could have this current treatment revoked in years to come. There are studies, however, on the effects of Puberty on brain development, and yes brain development will be affected by delaying Puberty.
For example:
https://www.msu.edu/~sisk/publications/pdfs/Sisk%26Zehr05_Frontiers.pdf
Even those that are very much for the treatments in Children, such as Dr. Norman Spack will tell you that long term hormone does carry serious health risks and that they do not have " all the answers".

What should be made fully understood about the current state of " medicine" is there is far more we don't know than we do
I know people like to think we are some how " advanced" and Modern, but the truth is one day I hope we look back on our current state of medicine in disbelief on how barbaric and misinformed we were. We can only do the best we can with what we have and honestly, after everything I learned from Immunology, and Pediatrics is that we are very very far from where we need to be and have a long way to go, and much to learn.

The school was right. Just because someone thinks they are a girl, doesn't mean they are. The kid is already fucked up mentally as it is, no need to delude it any more. Having a male in a female bathroom would creep out everybody just so one person can satisfy their delusions. Either the kid should stop thinking it is a girl and embrace the testosterone and go to the mens room, or leave to a different school, or make the life altering decision at such a young age and lop it off. The last one would truly be hilarious in around ten years when hormones begin to kick in. I digress. The main issue here isn't transexuality, it is about forcing people to accept it. Some people don't want to accept it.

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