Should public schools officially recognize a student's gender identity?

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Rosiv:
Given these definitions of women and female, one could argue that trans-women are female via source 1) "transgender

women" , where they include the mention of trans women in the definition. 2) "4. Feminine quality or aspect;

womanliness." ,& 3) "3: distinctively feminine nature : womanliness". 5. of, pertaining to, or characteristic of a

female person; feminine: female suffrage; female charm. Since transgender women have the aspect of being feminine by

their self identification as a women these definitions works.

I just went to dictionary.com, thought it was a simple, reputible source. I mean, its the dictionary

Allow me to address your points

1)
This is the only one that I will not acknowledge, Wikipedia is not a reputable source. Politics and Political Correctness creep in far too easily. Which is probaly why its the onlyone that makes a solid case for transgenders being Women.

2) and 3)
These deal with an having an effeminate nature or behaviour. I was arguing before that, under this type of definition, an effeminate man would be considered a woman. This is where I made the ridiculous assertion of a butch girl who like football being forced to use the Men's restroom

The big problem with these definitions is that the people I have been arguing with in this thread have repeatedly claimed that being a Woman can not be linked to social behavior in any way. In fact, they claim there there are no physical, social, mental, or emotional traits associated with the state of being a Woman.

boots:

Shadowstar38:
Everything, as far as government stuff is concerned, is based on sex. No matter what he wants to be, Cory is a male. So the school is in the right here.

Wow, and this poster cares so much about the plight of the transgendered girl that they can't be bothered to get her name right, let alone her pronoun.]

Woah guy. Chill out. I didn't indicated I hated transsexuals or any of the stuff that was in the bulk of the last part of your post. You're going overboard. And I used he because the article said the person was biologically a male. My bad for not being PC.

I would like to add this to the discussion before turning in for the night:


Audio for pt2:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KE3_CrjmnKg
Link for Pt 3:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FHtwrwc0VD8
Not all cultures have the issues this one does because they view these things in a different way. There is really no reason transgendered has to be an issue at all.

Lil devils x:
There appears to be some confusion here. Transgender and transexual are Two different things.
Transgender does not change into another sex, transexual does.
This should better clarify that for you:
http://www.diffen.com/difference/Transgender_vs_Transsexual

Transgender is also used as an umbrella term. If this caused some confusion I apologize.

Second and most important here in regards to medication given to CHILDREN:
1) A psychologist is NOT a medical doctor, and cannot give MEDICAL treatment, nor should they, you should see a medical doctor to handle medication.A psychologist did not attend medical school and is not educated on medication effects on the human body. (Side note: In fact Most physicians are not aware of the effects of the medication they are prescribing, and you should always ask questions and research the medications you are prescribed yourself to ensure you are being properly treated.)
This should clarify that for you:
http://www.webmd.com/mental-health/features/psychology-vs-psychiatry-which-is-better

Yes, I meant psychiatrist. Sorry for the mistake.

Also in regards to that article, you should not trust medication being prescribed by what we like to call " pill farms" in the industry, where you have the only one qualified to write a script only sees the patient for a few minutes and then writes a script that was prescribed by an unqualified member of their staff. You should seek a second opinion, or consult with your primary care physician, or even better, have a primary care physician that is an Internal Medicine Doctor before taking such medication.
The difference between these physicians:
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Whats_the_difference_between_a_family_doctor_and_internal_medicine_doctor
http://www.acponline.org/patients_families/about_internal_medicine/

This has more to do with the medical establishment than transgender issues.

2)Chilren should be treated by Pediatricians, and ONLY someone who has studied in pediatric medicine should prescribe Medication to children.
http://www.webmd.com/baby/what-is-a-pediatrician

Exactly. And that is why the department here that deals transgender patients has two pediatricians on staff.

I think I'm beginning to see the problem here. You seem to come from a place with bad healthcare practices and you seem to assume that therefor this is the case everywhere.

My chosen fields of study were Immunology and Pedatric Medicine,

So you're not an expert on transgender issues.

and yes, I can tell you from my experience, that Medication should only be taken when it is required, instead we should strive to strengthen our immune systems to ensure good health, rather than break them down by over medicating and causing unecessary harm to ourselves.

And you conveniently seem to have ignored the part of my post where I explained why the treatment is necessary.

Yes, I do take issue with those who do not understand the impact that these medications have on a persons health, and too often I have seen so-called "Doctors" not only prescribing medication that is harmful to the patients health they are often so wreckless as to prescribe dangerous combinations of medications that should never be prescribed to the same person. even if a medication does not have a direct " drug interaction" what it does in your body and to your immune system can be quite serious. You should understand that there is no part of your body that is " JUST an organ", each plays a role and interacts with your other systems. Though I posted this earlier in this thread, your reproductive systems ineract with your other systems and changing that means you also impact your other systems and this causes other issues as well that have to be addressed.
This should help:
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_reproductive_system_interact_with_others_systems

Again, you seem to be working from the assumption that everyone else is a quack. They are not. There are urologists and endocrinologists who look into all those issues you mentioned.

Hormone Therapy is not harmless, and should not be prescribed unless absolutely necessary. You should understand the role your hormones play in your immune system.
This should help clarify that:
http://immunedisorders.homestead.com/hormones.html

And I never claimed it was harmless. It's just that the benefits outweigh the risks. But you ignored the part where I tried to explain this.

Lil devils x:

Rosiv:

Lil devils x:

There appears to be some confusion here. Transgender and transexual are Two different things.
Transgender does not change into another sex, transexual does.
This should better clarify that for you:
http://www.diffen.com/difference/Transgender_vs_Transsexual

Second and most important here in regards to medication given to CHILDREN:
1) A psychologist is NOT a medical doctor, and cannot give MEDICAL treatment, nor should they, you should see a medical doctor to handle medication.A psychologist did not attend medical school and is not educated on medication effects on the human body. (Side note: In fact Most physicians are not aware of the effects of the medication they are prescribing, and you should always ask questions and research the medications you are prescribed yourself to ensure you are being properly treated.)
This should clarify that for you:
http://www.webmd.com/mental-health/features/psychology-vs-psychiatry-which-is-better
Also in regards to that article, you should not trust medication being prescribed by what we like to call " pill farms" in the industry, where you have the only one qualified to write a script only sees the patient for a few minutes and then writes a script that was prescribed by an unqualified member of their staff. You should seek a second opinion, or consult with your primary care physician, or even better, have a primary care physician that is an Internal Medicine Doctor before taking such medication.
The difference between these physicians:
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Whats_the_difference_between_a_family_doctor_and_internal_medicine_doctor
http://www.acponline.org/patients_families/about_internal_medicine/
2)Chilren should be treated by Pediatricians, and ONLY someone who has studied in pediatric medicine should prescribe Medication to children.
http://www.webmd.com/baby/what-is-a-pediatrician

My chosen fields of study were Immunology and Pedatric Medicine, and yes, I can tell you from my experience, that Medication should only be taken when it is required, instead we should strive to strengthen our immune systems to ensure good health, rather than break them down by over medicating and causing unecessary harm to ourselves. Yes, I do take issue with those who do not understand the impact that these medications have on a persons health, and too often I have seen so-called "Doctors" not only prescribing medication that is harmful to the patients health they are often so wreckless as to prescribe dangerous combinations of medications that should never be prescribed to the same person. even if a medication does not have a direct " drug interaction" what it does in your body and to your immune system can be quite serious. You should understand that there is no part of your body that is " JUST an organ", each plays a role and interacts with your other systems. Though I posted this earlier in this thread, your reproductive systems ineract with your other systems and changing that means you also impact your other systems and this causes other issues as well that have to be addressed.
This should help:
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_reproductive_system_interact_with_others_systems

Hormone Therapy is not harmless, and should not be prescribed unless absolutely necessary. You should understand the role your hormones play in your immune system.
This should help clarify that:
http://immunedisorders.homestead.com/hormones.html

I will go into this further when I have time.

That article does not specify if the patients are Natural born females or trans-females, which in the trans-female case

might be different since they have male levels of test/est. Also that source states that one of the reason that HRT is

dangerous is because of dosage. The article goes on to state how women should mantain "normal" levels of estrogen which

to my understanding Trans women do by seeing a specialist in that area. Many transgender communities have such

references and if Coy's parents were concerned about safety they could easily seek one out. It also stated that use of

artifical progesterone was bad, which I might agree, however transgender women do not have to take that, and usually do

not for there there are no visual benefit from taking it. That source also does not address the effects of Hormone

blockers on children, but on adult's suffering from prostate cancer also referencing within the source the blocker being

flutamide, to which my information, transpeople do not use commonly. I believe the common form of hormone blocker for

transgender women is Spironolactone (Aldactone). The only argument I guess one could make against HRT is if it was done

against Coy's will, since she should have a choice in what she puts in her body, any HRT can cause increased liver

damage, but one can make that statement on taking ANY medication for a long time, since your liver is going to have to

process it...

http://www.transgendercare.com/medical/resources/tmf_program/tmf_program_5.asp

I am short for time atm, but you should understand there are simply not enough studies in this area to determine the long term health effects on children. Basically, the children undergoing this treatment now are the "guinea pigs" and yes, you could have this current treatment revoked in years to come. There are studies, however, on the effects of Puberty on brain development, and yes brain development will be affected by delaying Puberty.
For example:
https://www.msu.edu/~sisk/publications/pdfs/Sisk%26Zehr05_Frontiers.pdf
Even those that are very much for the treatments in Children, such as Dr. Norman Spack will tell you that long term hormone does carry serious health risks and that they do not have " all the answers".

What should be made fully understood about the current state of " medicine" is there is far more we don't know than we do
I know people like to think we are some how " advanced" and Modern, but the truth is one day I hope we look back on our current state of medicine in disbelief on how barbaric and misinformed we were. We can only do the best we can with what we have and honestly, after everything I learned from Immunology, and Pediatrics is that we are very very far from where we need to be and have a long way to go, and much to learn.

You have enough time to link a 12 page article but not provide specific citations on where theses "affected" areas

of brain development are, or what they are? Well I sorry for your busy schedule, being a doctor must be time consuming,

but id appreciate it if you would cite the points you are arguing. I read the article twice over and only encountered

studies done on people with disorders of the HPG axis, such as IHH,which according to your source

"in which the HPG axis is not activated at the normal
age of puberty onset, resulting in low or undetectable levels
of circulating gonadal steroids during adolescent develop-
ment. People with these disorders are typically treated with
a variety of compounds that act on the HPG axis to nor-
malize neuroendocrine activity."

Therefore since people with these types of hormonal disorders are treated by having "nor-malize neuroendocrine

activity" I dont see how treating a transgender women with normal levels of female hormones,or normal enough to allow

for her to see physical results is a harmful action, since these transgender women would have female levels of hormones,

they should not have "low or undetectable levels of circulating gonadal steroids" and be void of problems. Although that

is my unmedical understanding of the topic. The article also states that

" In fact, early puberty in humans has been identified as a risk factor for a variety of psychopathologies,
including eating disorders and depression. The underlying
causes for this increased risk are debated. Physiological and
hormonal changes during puberty may alter neural circuits
directly. Alternatively, the physiological changes associated
with early puberty may alter an adolescent's social experiences during puberty, causing an increased risk for psychopathology."

Which I guess could be a big deal for trans-people, except this article only states that its data shows a "possible

link" and that "empirical studies" on male patients fall behind those of females. It be better to reference a article

with trans people in it(http://www.scienceofeds.org/2012/08/01/disordered-eating-transgendered-individuals/) , but with

such small sample sizes for the studies involved, we logically should not.

I guess you are correct about calling the transgenders of today "guinea pigs". However that should not mean we

should prevent them from taking these therapies, as these supposed "long term effects" that you mention are pure

conjecture without actual evidence, for which as you said , have none. With that line of reasoning, we might as well ban

gay marriage as well, for there is not enough research in that area either, nor has homosexual legal marriage been

around for that long(around 10 years in some places I believe). One could argue that the effects of homosexual marriage

on children raised by these couples or around them has not been studied enough, and therefore adequate grounds to be

against it. So to summarize, you are making baseless conjecture, and have no solid evidence on the harm of HRT, yet the

actual data suggests otherwise.
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http://www.tgender.net/taw/tsins.html

When referring to these terms, language such as "standard, tested and accepted effective practice by the medical

community at large" and "recognized standards of the health care speciality involved" will be found. It is useful to

follow the logic of this standard. A transsexual is usually diagnosed with "Gender Identity Disorder", 302.85 in the DSM

IV. Following the accepted psychological, psychiatric, and medical treatment for this diagnosis, one finds that the

appropriate standard of diagnosis and treatment is the Harry Benjamin Standards of Care. These standards outline the

appropriate and effective treatment for Gender Identity Disorder, including counselling, medical, and surgical. Applying

the definitions, most practitioners will conclude that the treatments are indeed medically necessary by the recognized

standards for medical necessity.

The Harry Benjamin Standards address this issue directly:

Sex Reassignment is Effective and Medically Indicated in Severe GID. In persons diagnosed with transsexualism or

profound GID, sex reassignment surgery, along with hormone therapy and real-life experience, is a treatment that has

proven to be effective. Such a therapeutic regimen, when prescribed or recommended by qualified practitioners, is

medically indicated and medically necessary. Sex reassignment is not "experimental," "investigational," "elective,"

"cosmetic," or optional in any meaningful sense. It constitutes very effective and appropriate treatment for

transsexualism or profound GID.
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As for your reference of Dr. Norman Spack, I could find no such article that quoted him on "that long term hormone does

carry serious health risks and that they do not have " all the answers"." , so if you have the time id love to see a

source. All I could find was a couple of sources on his opinions on the subject, and others.
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http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/ideas/articles/2008/03/30/qa_with_norman_spack/?page=full

Even the care of transgender adults remains a medical backwater in the United States; in fact, we do not even know how

many people in this country have gone through sex changes, because doctors simply did not bother to keep track of

patients. Until recently, children with cross-gender feelings rarely received modern medical care - and certainly not

hormone shots. After all, who would allow a child to redesign his or her body?

But in the past few years, some doctors have come to believe that kids should be allowed to have some control over how

they grow up. Dr. Norman Spack, 64, argues that transgender kids tend to be much happier - and less likely to harm

themselves - when they're able to live in their preferred gender role.
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(same source)

IDEAS: So the aim of your treatment is to protect children from harming themselves?

SPACK: Transgendered kids have a high level of suicide attempts. Of the patients who have fled England to see me, three

out of the four have made very serious suicide attempts. And I've never seen any patient make [an attempt] after they've

started hormonal treatment.
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(same source)

IDEAS: What are the most difficult ethical issues you face?

SPACK: The biggest challenge is the issue of fertility. When young people halt their puberty before their bodies have

developed, and then take cross-hormones for a few years, they'll probably be infertile. You have to explain to the

patients that if they go ahead, they may not be able to have children. When you're talking to a 12-year-old, that's a

heavy-duty conversation. Does a kid that age really think about fertility? But if you don't start treatment, they will

always have trouble fitting in. And my patients always remind me that what's most important to them is their identity.
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http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/ideas/articles/2008/03/30/qa_with_norman_spack/?page=full

Offering sex-changing treatment to kids younger than 18 raises ethical concerns, and their parents' motives need to be

closely examined, said Dr. Margaret Moon, a member of the American Academy of Pediatrics' bioethics committee. She was

not involved in any of the reports.

Some kids may get a psychiatric diagnosis when they are just hugely uncomfortable with narrowly defined gender roles; or

some may be gay and are coerced into treatment by parents more comfortable with a sex change than having a homosexual

child, said Moon, who teaches at the Johns Hopkins Berman Institute of Bioethics.

It's harmful "to have an irreversible treatment too early," Moon said.

Doctors who provide the treatment say withholding it would be more harmful.

These children sometimes resort to self-mutilation to try to change their anatomy; the other two journal reports note

that some face verbal and physical abuse and are prone to stress, depression and suicide attempts. Spack said those

problems typically disappear in kids who've had treatment and are allowed to live as the opposite sex.
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(same source)

Guidelines from the Endocrine Society endorse transgender hormone treatment but say it should not be given before

puberty begins. At that point, the guidelines recommend puberty-blocking drugs until age 16, then lifelong sex-changing

hormones with monitoring for potential health risks. Mental health professionals should be involved in the process, the

guidelines say. The group's members are doctors who treat hormonal conditions.
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(same source)

The drugs used by the clinics are approved for delaying puberty in kids who start maturing too soon. The drugs' effects

are reversible, and Spack said they've caused no complications in his patients. The idea is to give these children time

to mature emotionally and make sure they want to proceed with a permanent sex change. Only 1 of the 97 opted out of

permanent treatment, Spack said.

Kids will more easily pass as the opposite gender, and require less drastic treatment later, if drug treatment starts

early, Spack said. For example, boys switching to girls will develop breasts and girls transitioning to boys will be

flat-chested if puberty is blocked and sex-hormones started soon enough, Spack said.

Sex hormones, especially in high doses when used long-term, can have serious side effects, including blood clots and

cancer. Spack said he uses low, safer doses but that patients should be monitored.
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From the data I gathered, I guess you could argue that if the dosage is high, then the patient could be endangered, but

you could make that assessment about anything, like alcohol or water, if taken too much, can cause injury, but in

moderation is not shown to have any negative side effects, at least to my information. And even if high dosage was the

case, as long as the child/adult in question sought out a professional in this area, as one should when dealing with

special medical cases, then that professional should be qualified enough as Dr. Spack to administer "low dosage

treatment".

My data also states that the " drugs' effects are reversible, and Spack said they've caused no complications in his

patients. " in reference to the drugs used to delay puberty. And also that "Doctors who provide the treatment say

withholding it would be more harmful. " as "These children sometimes resort to self-mutilation" and that "that some face

verbal and physical abuse and are prone to stress, depression and suicide attempts." but Spack said those problems

typically disappear in kids who've had treatment and are allowed to live as the opposite sex. "

So far we have evidence supporting the idea that being medically transgender/sexual is a boon to a child suffering from

GID / GD and that with proper care they can seemingly live healthy lives. With the only evidence to the contrary being,

misinformed doctors prescribing improper dosages, starting HRT "before puberty begins" and without "monitoring for

potential health risks", or a lack of fertility, which in my opinion, is a entirely subjective matter, for one can live

without being fertile and still have a normal life, although I could see someone argue the point.

As for medicine being "barbaric" and "misinformed", I think that is a bit too subjective of a view point on the

matter. Medicine HAS advanced in my opinion, and we have a much higher life expectancy than previous generations. The

real heart of the issue is, is it worth taking a risk to one's health to improve quality of life? And in this question I

answer yes, for without being able to enjoy one's life, why bother living? I suppose you could spend your time being

selfless and helping others, but that task might be a difficult endeavour if a person had a dysphoric level of

dissonance in their lives. But people are entitled to their view points, and I do appricate your genuine concern about

the health of trans-people, maybe as a doctor , your view points on life are a bit different than their's.

cthulhuspawn82:

Rosiv:
Given these definitions of women and female, one could argue that trans-women are female via source 1) "transgender

women" , where they include the mention of trans women in the definition. 2) "4. Feminine quality or aspect;

womanliness." ,& 3) "3: distinctively feminine nature : womanliness". 5. of, pertaining to, or characteristic of a

female person; feminine: female suffrage; female charm. Since transgender women have the aspect of being feminine by

their self identification as a women these definitions works.

I just went to dictionary.com, thought it was a simple, reputible source. I mean, its the dictionary

Allow me to address your points

1)
This is the only one that I will not acknowledge, Wikipedia is not a reputable source. Politics and Political Correctness creep in far too easily. Which is probaly why its the onlyone that makes a solid case for transgenders being Women.

2) and 3)
These deal with an having an effeminate nature or behaviour. I was arguing before that, under this type of definition, an effeminate man would be considered a woman. This is where I made the ridiculous assertion of a butch girl who like football being forced to use the Men's restroom

The big problem with these definitions is that the people I have been arguing with in this thread have repeatedly claimed that being a Woman can not be linked to social behavior in any way. In fact, they claim there there are no physical, social, mental, or emotional traits associated with the state of being a Woman.

Yes. If you were to use those definitions, then your argument would be correct,but one could say that about any arugment

with a premise that you assume to be true. but the question is, are those definitions accurate to the reality of the

situation? A definition is suppose to provided context and clarity, calling a natural born man, who changes their

physical appearance to spend their life a women, a man, would be a misnomer. As in reference to how being a woman can

not be linked to social behavior, could you clarify for me? Are you saying that women/men or gender is a social

construct of somehow, and if so, how could you provide proof for that? If it was to be the case, and if I am

understanding you correctly then if gender was completely social and removed from and physical sex definition. Then

would it not be possible to raise a child as he was a blank slate? Bringing up a boy as a girl, and vice versa, without

any complications?

Either way, id like you to address the other part of my argument that i quoted previously and that i will post again

here:
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....This one is a bit more tricky, since they define sex as the part of the organism that "produces non-mobile

ova(egg cells)" although trans-women do not produced egg cells, nor , for the most part, have "two X chromosomes"

neither do some natural born women either, and yet they still get referred to as women, even though they are sexually,

useless, which is the focus of the definition. Therefore, I do not see it being very accurate, as through Hormone

replacement therapy or sexual reassignment surgery, a transgender women would lose her male fertility, which would make

her ineligible for the male definition as well. Since the transgender person would be lacking sexual function in both

male and female regards, and since the spirit of the word sex involves reproductive capabilities, then it would be more

fitting to call them a hermaphrodite or inter-sexed to a degree,as would it natural born women who lost their sexual

function or lack it. And in dealing with inter-sexed people, they usually get to choose what they want to be seen as due

to their sexual ambiguity. so I do not see why transgender / transsexual should not be afforded the same respect? The

only reason I could see to refer to a trans person as their birth sex, when they are attempting to present themselves to

the contrary is that you would want to reference their past living as a male, which is irrelevant unless you are their

doctor ,or are going to attempt a child with them. Even then, that still would not let you accurately define them as

male, since we usually do not define things as they were, but what they are. For example, I was a child when I was

younger, and I had black hair, now I am an adult with red hair. Would it make sense to refer to me as the child with

black hair in public scenario's, or the adult with red hair?

Lil devils x:
I would like to add this to the discussion before turning in for the night:


Audio for pt2:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KE3_CrjmnKg
Link for Pt 3:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FHtwrwc0VD8
Not all cultures have the issues this one does because they view these things in a different way. There is really no reason transgendered has to be an issue at all.

Well I watched the first two videos, and i didn't see any mention of transgender people in it, but instead "Two-spirited" people to which the video then correlated to gay men. I have the feeling that the term "two-spirited" means more of a feminine man or a masculine women than that of a transgender. You might accuse me of confirmation bias but, i searched the term to get more information on it and a site i encountered sums up my opinion on the differences of view points that trans people and the two-spirited people have.
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http://people.ucalgary.ca/~ptrembla/aboriginal/two-spirited-american-indian-resources.htm

The Two-Spirit person
"has nothing to do with being in the wrong body;
in fact, it is about being in the absolutely correct body:
one which is required to complete the kinship structure and
spiritual requirements of one's community. (Holmes, 2004)
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From that definition, I guess I could gather that they are still referring to gender roles and not actual gender

identity.

Even in the video, the first two-spirited person goes on to talk about "him"self being a "gay" man. Had he referred to

himself as somehow female or transgender, you might have a point in referencing him. Unless you are implying that gay

somehow equals transgender or that due to some of the native American cultural acceptance of men being "gay" and

"effeminate" that that acceptance would somehow prevent trans-people from even existing?

Unless you could find a source talking about the experience of a transgender person, that is, someone who feels they

are "in the wrong body", instead of a "two-spirited" person, who by contemporary standards would be considered gender-

queer. I think your position might be a bit faulty or dismissive, (since you say that "transgenderism doesn't even have

to be an issue) on the transgender/sexual population existing

today,since it is instead referencing two-spirited people, which i believe is to be different.
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[added for clarification]
(I do not mean to say that the two-spirited people are somehow irrelevant to this debate. But by stating the existence

of gender-queer people, that does not prove a culture's acceptance of transgendered people, unless you are defining them

the same, and since we cant prove either the existence of transgender people being biological or social, why side with

the viewpoint that goes against most transgender mentality? Do you not think this would not hurt them in anyway? Or do

you assume to know better than they do, even though both sides do not have enough evidence.)

Rosiv:
snip

The problem is that just about any definition you pick can be used to show the ridiculousness of calling a transgender male a woman

If you define Woman/Man by physical appearance, then a man with long hair and soft skin must use the woman restroom.

If you define Woman/Man by social behavior, then a butch girl who drinks, burps, farts, and loves football must use the Men's restroom.

If you define Woman/Man by personality or emotional behavior, then a guy who talks and behaves too effeminately must use the Woman's restroom.

You could define woman as someone who identifies with being a Woman, but that is a circular definition. People in this tread have been arguing that Woman cant be defined by any physical, social, or emotional behavior. They claim woman cant be defined by any means other than one who identifies with being a woman. This is obviously wrong because how can you identify with an unintelligible concept that has no descriptions. I would say to a transgender, "The feelings you have inside you don't make you a Woman, because according to these people, Womanhood is not associated with feelings, behavior, or anything else."

As for your definition about Women being those who produce eggs, I think its a moot point. Its one way to be a woman, but I don't think anyone would say losing reproductive abilities means you lose your sex.

In the end, people can can get a sex change, and we can even start referring to them as Women in casual conversation and may even let them use the Women's restroom depending on how "Womanlike" they appear. But when we really want to be truthful we have to say that they are transgendered males.

So I would be fine calling them Women under casual circumstances such as everyday conversation. But when the distinction becomes important, such as deciding which bathroom they use or which scholoships they can apply for, I must refer to them as men.

cthulhuspawn82:

Rosiv:
snip

The problem is that just about any definition you pick can be used to show the ridiculousness of calling a transgender male a woman

If you define Woman/Man by physical appearance, then a man with long hair and soft skin must use the woman restroom.

If you define Woman/Man by social behavior, then a butch girl who drinks, burps, farts, and loves football must use the Men's restroom.

If you define Woman/Man by personality or emotional behavior, then a guy who talks and behaves too effeminately must use the Woman's restroom.

You could define woman as someone who identifies with being a Woman, but that is a circular definition. People in this tread have been arguing that Woman cant be defined by any physical, social, or emotional behavior. They claim woman cant be defined by any means other than one who identifies with being a woman. This is obviously wrong because how can you identify with an unintelligible concept that has no descriptions. I would say to a transgender, "The feelings you have inside you don't make you a Woman, because according to these people, Womanhood is not associated with feelings, behavior, or anything else."

As for your definition about Women being those who produce eggs, I think its a moot point. Its one way to be a woman, but I don't think anyone would say losing reproductive abilities means you lose your sex.

In the end, people can can get a sex change, and we can even start referring to them as Women in casual conversation and may even let them use the Women's restroom depending on how "Womanlike" they appear. But when we really want to be truthful we have to say that they are transgendered males.

So I would be fine calling them Women under casual circumstances such as everyday conversation. But when the distinction becomes important, such as deciding which bathroom they use or which scholoships they can apply for, I must refer to them as men.

Well i appreciate the honesty and civility, and the fact that would you would refer to them as women in social

standards, but to call them men kind of defeats the point of trying to identify as a women. And on a side note about

terminology, a transgender male as you state it would be a female attempting to present at male, not a male presenting a

female, as i think you imply. And transgender women can use bathrooms of their identified gender legal as well as apply

for scholarships, so the way you refer to them is a bit unnecessary, no offense. I suppose if you were refering to trans-

ethnic people i would have to agree with you, soley because there is no evidence to the contrary that their claim is

legitimate, unlike trans-people.
.
.
.
Either way, to talk about the crux of your argument , you state there is no way to define a transgender women, so that

it could exclude gay men, and therefore transgender women arent really women. I say the definition of women and man is

flawed and dated to begin with, as it doesn't even consider the possibility of transgender people, which do exist and

makes any attempt at applying this definition, out of context.

And for you saying that "I don't think anyone would say losing reproductive abilities means you lose your sex". It kind

of does, the word sex, implies reproduction, it refers to the act of mating, where mates exchange genetic material. If

one mate has no genetic material to exchange for whatever reasons, it would make that mate, for all intents and

purposes, non-sexed. But for humans, we dont refer to these non-sexed people as such, we dont call women who have disfigured

ovaries that are incapable of conceiving eggs, eunuch, nor treat them as such legally.

.
.
.
I just dont see the fundamental difference between a transgender women or a women who cant reproduce, because you

can define both as not female, by the definition of female, but still treat one female mor-so than the other. At the end

i really do feel the terms man/women and male/female need to be updated to also include/exclude trans-people.

[EDIT]
On having some time to think about your definitions for defining a transgender women , why

could you not do it physically? Technicality speaking , if a transgender is under going HRT,

then they would have fat distribution akin to a women, and breast tissue, akin to a women,and

a dominance of estrogen in their system, things effeminate men don't really have, and women do

have, and since they would have much more in common with natural-born women than natural-born

men, why refer to them as men in any social/legal sense? Even the law requires for some

transgender women to have to undergo some form of physical change in most areas of the US,

although some allow it merely on request. So in by saying it's "ridiculous", i am not really

sure what you mean.

Rosiv:

Lil devils x:
I would like to add this to the discussion before turning in for the night:


Audio for pt2:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KE3_CrjmnKg
Link for Pt 3:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FHtwrwc0VD8
Not all cultures have the issues this one does because they view these things in a different way. There is really no reason transgendered has to be an issue at all.

Well I watched the first two videos, and i didn't see any mention of transgender people in it, but instead "Two-spirited" people to which the video then correlated to gay men. I have the feeling that the term "two-spirited" means more of a feminine man or a masculine women than that of a transgender. You might accuse me of confirmation bias but, i searched the term to get more information on it and a site i encountered sums up my opinion on the differences of view points that trans people and the two-spirited people have.
.
.
.
.
http://people.ucalgary.ca/~ptrembla/aboriginal/two-spirited-american-indian-resources.htm

The Two-Spirit person
"has nothing to do with being in the wrong body;
in fact, it is about being in the absolutely correct body:
one which is required to complete the kinship structure and
spiritual requirements of one's community. (Holmes, 2004)
.
.
.
.
From that definition, I guess I could gather that they are still referring to gender roles and not actual gender

identity.

Even in the video, the first two-spirited person goes on to talk about "him"self being a "gay" man. Had he referred to

himself as somehow female or transgender, you might have a point in referencing him. Unless you are implying that gay

somehow equals transgender or that due to some of the native American cultural acceptance of men being "gay" and

"effeminate" that that acceptance would somehow prevent trans-people from even existing?

Unless you could find a source talking about the experience of a transgender person, that is, someone who feels they

are "in the wrong body", instead of a "two-spirited" person, who by contemporary standards would be considered gender-

queer. I think your position might be a bit faulty or dismissive, (since you say that "transgenderism doesn't even have

to be an issue) on the transgender/sexual population existing

today,since it is instead referencing two-spirited people, which i believe is to be different.
.
.
.
.
[added for clarification]
(I do not mean to say that the two-spirited people are somehow irrelevant to this debate. But by stating the existence

of gender-queer people, that does not prove a culture's acceptance of transgendered people, unless you are defining them

the same, and since we cant prove either the existence of transgender people being biological or social, why side with

the viewpoint that goes against most transgender mentality? Do you not think this would not hurt them in anyway? Or do

you assume to know better than they do, even though both sides do not have enough evidence.)

Transgender does not wish to change their body by definition and would not be undergoing Hormone treatement, transexual does. I posted that link earlier in the thread, here it is again:
http://www.diffen.com/difference/Transgender_vs_Transsexual
I am not currently at my pc, You are incorrect about two spirts, Two spirits is any individual whose spirit does not match their physical body, gay men, and transgender MTF are in the same " sex" or considered a 3rd sex by tribes, and Lesbian and FTM are considered a 4th sex, but both are considered to be Two spirited individuals granted with special abilities above the average person.

As shown in n the photograph shown in the first video, It is more common for two spirit males to dress as females, and in our histories we have some very famous two spirit individuals, they were selected to take the most honorable positions in the tribe and they were chosen for great honors such as representing our tribes to visit the president at the White house and such. The reason they never felt uncomfortable in their own bodies is they were never made to feel uncomfortable in their own bodies because they held their place of honor for the way they were. They held a higher social status than women born women, and men born men, so of course they were very happy with the bodies they were given.
They do not feel they are in the wrong body simply because no one ever made them feel as if they were. That is the difference, they are proud of who they are in the body they were given, the very definition of a transgender, and celebrated for being that way.

Transexual is someone who is uncomfortable in their own body and they don't really exist in native culture because the people are happy due to their roles in society. As for transexuals who were not also homosexuals, those transitions do not have a very high success rate from what I have read on the subject.

EDIT: I also would like to add you would probably find quite a variety on the subject considering there are Hundreds of tribes with their own traditions, own cultures, thus many differnt defintions. I can only speak for my own, which is Hopi. From Hopi tradition, having a two spirit child makes parents as happy as if they had won the lottery, and since they are raised in such a position of honor their entire lives, they are never made to feel ucomfortable. Instead they are treated by the entire village, and even by other vilages that visit as if they are royalty. Both males and females (heterosexual or not) want to be chosen by a two spirit. They basically are treated so well, why would they ever want to be anyone else?

Rosiv:
-snip-

I know you are contributing a lot to this thread, but I'm going to have to ask if you can stop double-spacing between every line. If you just keep typing in the text box, the words will automatically go down to the next line. You don't have to press return manually to make it do that. I suggest that you only do a double-space when separating paragraphs. I'm only saying this because you're making this page a hell of a lot longer than it needs to be, lol.

Lil devils x:

Rosiv:

Lil devils x:
I would like to add this to the discussion before turning in for the night:


Audio for pt2:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KE3_CrjmnKg
Link for Pt 3:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FHtwrwc0VD8
Not all cultures have the issues this one does because they view these things in a different way. There is really no reason transgendered has to be an issue at all.

Well I watched the first two videos, and i didn't see any mention of transgender people in it, but instead "Two-spirited" people to which the video then correlated to gay men. I have the feeling that the term "two-spirited" means more of a feminine man or a masculine women than that of a transgender. You might accuse me of confirmation bias but, i searched the term to get more information on it and a site i encountered sums up my opinion on the differences of view points that trans people and the two-spirited people have.
.
.
.
.
http://people.ucalgary.ca/~ptrembla/aboriginal/two-spirited-american-indian-resources.htm

The Two-Spirit person
"has nothing to do with being in the wrong body;
in fact, it is about being in the absolutely correct body:
one which is required to complete the kinship structure and
spiritual requirements of one's community. (Holmes, 2004)
.
.
.
.
From that definition, I guess I could gather that they are still referring to gender roles and not actual gender

identity.

Even in the video, the first two-spirited person goes on to talk about "him"self being a "gay" man. Had he referred to

himself as somehow female or transgender, you might have a point in referencing him. Unless you are implying that gay

somehow equals transgender or that due to some of the native American cultural acceptance of men being "gay" and

"effeminate" that that acceptance would somehow prevent trans-people from even existing?

Unless you could find a source talking about the experience of a transgender person, that is, someone who feels they

are "in the wrong body", instead of a "two-spirited" person, who by contemporary standards would be considered gender-

queer. I think your position might be a bit faulty or dismissive, (since you say that "transgenderism doesn't even have

to be an issue) on the transgender/sexual population existing

today,since it is instead referencing two-spirited people, which i believe is to be different.
.
.
.
.
[added for clarification]
(I do not mean to say that the two-spirited people are somehow irrelevant to this debate. But by stating the existence

of gender-queer people, that does not prove a culture's acceptance of transgendered people, unless you are defining them

the same, and since we cant prove either the existence of transgender people being biological or social, why side with

the viewpoint that goes against most transgender mentality? Do you not think this would not hurt them in anyway? Or do

you assume to know better than they do, even though both sides do not have enough evidence.)

Transgender does not wish to change their body by definition and would not be undergoing Hormone treatement, transexual does. I posted that link earlier in the thread, here it is again:
http://www.diffen.com/difference/Transgender_vs_Transsexual
I am not currently at my pc, You are incorrect about two spirts, Two spirits is any individual whose spirit does not match their physical body, gay men, and transgender MTF are in the same " sex" or considered a 3rd sex by tribes, and Lesbian and FTM are considered a 4th sex, but both are considered to be Two spirited individuals granted with special abilities above the average person.

As shown in n the photograph shown in the first video, It is more common for two spirit males to dress as females, and in our histories we have some very famous two spirit individuals, they were selected to take the most honorable positions in the tribe and they were chosen for great honors such as representing our tribes to visit the president at the White house and such. The reason they never felt uncomfortable in their own bodies is they were never made to feel uncomfortable in their own bodies because they held their place of honor for the way they were. They held a higher social status than women born women, and men born men, so of course they were very happy with the bodies they were given.
They do not feel they are in the wrong body simply because no one ever made them feel as if they were. That is the difference, they are proud of who they are in the body they were given, the very definition of a transgender, and celebrated for being that way.

Transexual is someone who is uncomfortable in their own body and they don't really exist in native culture because the people are happy due to their roles in society. As for transexuals who were not also homosexuals, those transitions do not have a very high success rate from what I have read on the subject.

What are you taking about? In that vary source you just linked it denotes the possibility of a transgender wanting to

change their body right in the chart "Depends - some transgender people qualify for a diagnosis, others do not." was a

direct quote from it. That line shows that some transgender people qualify for the Gender dysphoria condition and

therefore

also would need to seek proper treatment, HRT or SRS, if need be. When a transgender person decides that SRS will help

them, that is the stage they become transsexual. The best way to define it would be Transgender being a Main class, and

transsexual being a subclass, in my opinion. As for your other claims i mean no offense on your native American culture,

but i got my definition from the source i presented, if you have a alternate valid definition ill take a source over

your word. You assume that "The reason they never felt uncomfortable in their own bodies is they were never made to feel

uncomfortable in their own bodies because they held their place of honor for the way they were". However you cant really

prove that unless they were here today. How do you know they weren't uncomfortable? Did they claim so?, and even if they

did, were they educated in their options to live a female life, even though they were born physically male, through HRT?

Maybe if they had this information, they would of thought differently, so one cant just assume they were fine with being

two-spirited. "They do not feel they are in the wrong body simply because no one ever made them feel as if they were.

That is the difference, they are proud of who they are in the body they were given, the very definition of a

transgender" is another quote from you, in which you say that being transgender means that you are "proud of who you

are". Now personally i don't agree, and most definitions of transgender don't agree with that sentiment either, bearing

on just what exactly "you" mean.

Are you saying that transgender women should be proud of their maleness? Because often times when trans-pride is

being spoke of, its more of embracing the gender they identify with, and not the gender people thought they were. I

guess that mentality would be more appropriate for a gender-queer.

And id like you to clarify your last comment. Are you saying that transgender people don't exist in the current native

American culture or the past, or both? For i found an article using a quick search that shows the existence of a

transgender native American. http://downtowndevil.com/2011/04/21/8237/native-american-lgbtq-pride-parade/

In this article, which i am sure doesn't represent the native American culture as a whole, but since you seem to be

informative on the subject, ill ask you why would a reservation be a hostile environment for a transgender, even though

two-spirited, which you assume to be the same, should be tolerated?

"You couldn't be open on the reservation -- everyone knows everyone," she says. "My parents were involved in traditional

Native American events, and I didn't want to bring shame to my family."

I hope it doesn't come across as condescending, but it just strikes me as off, seeing as how she quotes her parents

being "traditional" with there events, and i was to understand that two-spirited people had prominence in such events.

Maybe due to western influence, although that kind of conflicts with the word "traditional".

As for your last comment about "As for transexuals who were not also homosexuals, those transitions do not have a very

high success rate from what I have read on the subject." could you provide a source on that? I tried looking for a

source, but was a bit lost, and am very skeptical to your claim.

Rosiv:

Lil devils x:

Rosiv:

Well I watched the first two videos, and i didn't see any mention of transgender people in it, but instead "Two-spirited" people to which the video then correlated to gay men. I have the feeling that the term "two-spirited" means more of a feminine man or a masculine women than that of a transgender. You might accuse me of confirmation bias but, i searched the term to get more information on it and a site i encountered sums up my opinion on the differences of view points that trans people and the two-spirited people have.
.
.
.
.
http://people.ucalgary.ca/~ptrembla/aboriginal/two-spirited-american-indian-resources.htm

The Two-Spirit person
"has nothing to do with being in the wrong body;
in fact, it is about being in the absolutely correct body:
one which is required to complete the kinship structure and
spiritual requirements of one's community. (Holmes, 2004)
.
.
.
.
From that definition, I guess I could gather that they are still referring to gender roles and not actual gender

identity.

Even in the video, the first two-spirited person goes on to talk about "him"self being a "gay" man. Had he referred to

himself as somehow female or transgender, you might have a point in referencing him. Unless you are implying that gay

somehow equals transgender or that due to some of the native American cultural acceptance of men being "gay" and

"effeminate" that that acceptance would somehow prevent trans-people from even existing?

Unless you could find a source talking about the experience of a transgender person, that is, someone who feels they

are "in the wrong body", instead of a "two-spirited" person, who by contemporary standards would be considered gender-

queer. I think your position might be a bit faulty or dismissive, (since you say that "transgenderism doesn't even have

to be an issue) on the transgender/sexual population existing

today,since it is instead referencing two-spirited people, which i believe is to be different.
.
.
.
.
[added for clarification]
(I do not mean to say that the two-spirited people are somehow irrelevant to this debate. But by stating the existence

of gender-queer people, that does not prove a culture's acceptance of transgendered people, unless you are defining them

the same, and since we cant prove either the existence of transgender people being biological or social, why side with

the viewpoint that goes against most transgender mentality? Do you not think this would not hurt them in anyway? Or do

you assume to know better than they do, even though both sides do not have enough evidence.)

Transgender does not wish to change their body by definition and would not be undergoing Hormone treatement, transexual does. I posted that link earlier in the thread, here it is again:
http://www.diffen.com/difference/Transgender_vs_Transsexual
I am not currently at my pc, You are incorrect about two spirts, Two spirits is any individual whose spirit does not match their physical body, gay men, and transgender MTF are in the same " sex" or considered a 3rd sex by tribes, and Lesbian and FTM are considered a 4th sex, but both are considered to be Two spirited individuals granted with special abilities above the average person.

As shown in n the photograph shown in the first video, It is more common for two spirit males to dress as females, and in our histories we have some very famous two spirit individuals, they were selected to take the most honorable positions in the tribe and they were chosen for great honors such as representing our tribes to visit the president at the White house and such. The reason they never felt uncomfortable in their own bodies is they were never made to feel uncomfortable in their own bodies because they held their place of honor for the way they were. They held a higher social status than women born women, and men born men, so of course they were very happy with the bodies they were given.
They do not feel they are in the wrong body simply because no one ever made them feel as if they were. That is the difference, they are proud of who they are in the body they were given, the very definition of a transgender, and celebrated for being that way.

Transexual is someone who is uncomfortable in their own body and they don't really exist in native culture because the people are happy due to their roles in society. As for transexuals who were not also homosexuals, those transitions do not have a very high success rate from what I have read on the subject.

What are you taking about? In that vary source you just linked it denotes the possibility of a transgender wanting to

change their body right in the chart "Depends - some transgender people qualify for a diagnosis, others do not." was a

direct quote from it. That line shows that some transgender people qualify for the Gender dysphoria condition and

therefore

also would need to seek proper treatment, HRT or SRS, if need be. When a transgender person decides that SRS will help

them, that is the stage they become transsexual. The best way to define it would be Transgender being a Main class, and

transsexual being a subclass, in my opinion. As for your other claims i mean no offense on your native American culture,

but i got my definition from the source i presented, if you have a alternate valid definition ill take a source over

your word. You assume that "The reason they never felt uncomfortable in their own bodies is they were never made to feel

uncomfortable in their own bodies because they held their place of honor for the way they were". However you cant really

prove that unless they were here today. How do you know they weren't uncomfortable? Did they claim so?, and even if they

did, were they educated in their options to live a female life, even though they were born physically male, through HRT?

Maybe if they had this information, they would of thought differently, so one cant just assume they were fine with being

two-spirited. "They do not feel they are in the wrong body simply because no one ever made them feel as if they were.

That is the difference, they are proud of who they are in the body they were given, the very definition of a

transgender" is another quote from you, in which you say that being transgender means that you are "proud of who you

are". Now personally i don't agree, and most definitions of transgender don't agree with that sentiment either, bearing

on just what exactly "you" mean.

Are you saying that transgender women should be proud of their maleness? Because often times when trans-pride is

being spoke of, its more of embracing the gender they identify with, and not the gender people thought they were. I

guess that mentality would be more appropriate for a gender-queer.

And id like you to clarify your last comment. Are you saying that transgender people don't exist in the current native

American culture or the past, or both? For i found an article using a quick search that shows the existence of a

transgender native American. http://downtowndevil.com/2011/04/21/8237/native-american-lgbtq-pride-parade/

In this article, which i am sure doesn't represent the native American culture as a whole, but since you seem to be

informative on the subject, ill ask you why would a reservation be a hostile environment for a transgender, even though

two-spirited, which you assume to be the same, should be tolerated?

"You couldn't be open on the reservation -- everyone knows everyone," she says. "My parents were involved in traditional

Native American events, and I didn't want to bring shame to my family."

I hope it doesn't come across as condescending, but it just strikes me as off, seeing as how she quotes her parents

being "traditional" with there events, and i was to understand that two-spirited people had prominence in such events.

Maybe due to western influence, although that kind of conflicts with the word "traditional".

As for your last comment about "As for transexuals who were not also homosexuals, those transitions do not have a very

high success rate from what I have read on the subject." could you provide a source on that? I tried looking for a

source, but was a bit lost, and am very skeptical to your claim.

http://androgyne.0catch.com/2spiritx.htm
http://ne2ss.typepad.com/northeast_twospirit_socie/2006/08/homosexuality_a.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-Spirit
http://books.google.com/books?id=1ha9GgWNmy0C&pg=PA38&lpg=PA38&dq=hopi+two+spirit&source=bl&ots=MKLxm8qVFl&sig=iZxstlf3DmUB85eI1JtmirQgP-I&hl=en&sa=X&ei=b9wzUcyuCZLS9AS2xoDABQ&ved=0CE0Q6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=hopi%20two%20spirit&f=false
http://www.dancingtoeaglespiritsociety.org/twospirit.php
http://www.willsworld.org/twospiritq-a.html

Hopi are VERY much alive, but also you should understand the traditional Hopi do not use technology, and also do not allow technology into many of the areas, especially in sacred areas, where also the majority of our Two spirits live, as they are also considered highly spiritual. Technology is forbidden in sacred kivas. Finding information on the internet is often difficult to do, and when people post pictures, they are often forced to take them down by the tribal elders, as this is considered a great disrespect. Additonally, you should understand many tribes do not recognize the words used as meaning the same thing, they do not recognize " transgender" or " gay" and often if you ask them if they have any gays, they will tell you no, but if you use the word "winkle" instead they will understand. You should also understand that due to the forced assimilation of the catholic church, many tribes have been forced to keep their practices in secret, and this has made many unwilling to openly discuss these things with outsiders due to the past persecution. Even in my own childhood I was tied to chair and made to read the bible aloud at these schools the US government forced us to attend, and much worsehappened to others at my school. They actually forcefully raped boys as punishment. This was my school:
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/33984/HOPI-MOMS-TELL-SENATE-OF-CHILD-ABUSE.html?pg=all
Much of the abuse that has happened against the tribe has forced most of our people into not trusting outsiders with what my tribe considers spiritual matters. When I am back at my PC I will be able to look for more information for you on the subject.
I am currently unable to find the original papers I read ( as this was a while back) on regret and suicide statistics after Reassignment surgery, but I found these easily via google search:
http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0016885
http://gendertrender.wordpress.com/tag/sex-change-regret/
http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/TS/Warning.html

EDIT: From the difference between Transgender and transexual on the chart
Surgery:
Transgender:
No (never)
Transexual:
Yes (often but not always)
That is the primary difference bwteen the two.
Definition:
Transgender:
A feeling of discomfort or "bad fit" between one's assigned gender role, and one's internal sense of gender. Some identify as transsexual, but other people feel more ambiguous and prefer to re-define their gender role without changing their body.
Transexual:
Person clearly does not identify with the gender they are assigned at birth.

That seems to be the only noticeable difference between the two. The only difference is a transgendered person does not seek to change their body, when they do, they are not transgender, they are transexual. However, according to that chart, not even all transexuals change their body. No, a transgender person should not be encouraged to change their body. Why pressure them into something extremely risky unecessarily?

Edit2: as for why the reservation would be a hostile environment, why not ask the US government who imposed the BIA on the tribes and let the catholic church run the reservations in their assimilation efforts. This has nothing to do with " tradition". This has everything to do with tribal beliefs that were crushed by the "Christian crusades" of the Americas. Even some villages in the Hopi tribe have fallen to these pressures, but luckily the majority of the Hopi have resisted and have not assimilated and do not even recognize the US appointed tribal council or any contracts made with the US government. The US had been kidnapping the children and forcing them into their religious indoctrination, but it seems to have slowed a bit for now.

Lil devils x:

Rosiv:

Lil devils x:

Transgender does not wish to change their body by definition and would not be undergoing Hormone treatement, transexual does. I posted that link earlier in the thread, here it is again:
http://www.diffen.com/difference/Transgender_vs_Transsexual
I am not currently at my pc, You are incorrect about two spirts, Two spirits is any individual whose spirit does not match their physical body, gay men, and transgender MTF are in the same " sex" or considered a 3rd sex by tribes, and Lesbian and FTM are considered a 4th sex, but both are considered to be Two spirited individuals granted with special abilities above the average person.

As shown in n the photograph shown in the first video, It is more common for two spirit males to dress as females, and in our histories we have some very famous two spirit individuals, they were selected to take the most honorable positions in the tribe and they were chosen for great honors such as representing our tribes to visit the president at the White house and such. The reason they never felt uncomfortable in their own bodies is they were never made to feel uncomfortable in their own bodies because they held their place of honor for the way they were. They held a higher social status than women born women, and men born men, so of course they were very happy with the bodies they were given.
They do not feel they are in the wrong body simply because no one ever made them feel as if they were. That is the difference, they are proud of who they are in the body they were given, the very definition of a transgender, and celebrated for being that way.

Transexual is someone who is uncomfortable in their own body and they don't really exist in native culture because the people are happy due to their roles in society. As for transexuals who were not also homosexuals, those transitions do not have a very high success rate from what I have read on the subject.

What are you taking about? In that vary source you just linked it denotes the possibility of a transgender wanting to

change their body right in the chart "Depends - some transgender people qualify for a diagnosis, others do not." was a

direct quote from it. That line shows that some transgender people qualify for the Gender dysphoria condition and

therefore

also would need to seek proper treatment, HRT or SRS, if need be. When a transgender person decides that SRS will help

them, that is the stage they become transsexual. The best way to define it would be Transgender being a Main class, and

transsexual being a subclass, in my opinion. As for your other claims i mean no offense on your native American culture,

but i got my definition from the source i presented, if you have a alternate valid definition ill take a source over

your word. You assume that "The reason they never felt uncomfortable in their own bodies is they were never made to feel

uncomfortable in their own bodies because they held their place of honor for the way they were". However you cant really

prove that unless they were here today. How do you know they weren't uncomfortable? Did they claim so?, and even if they

did, were they educated in their options to live a female life, even though they were born physically male, through HRT?

Maybe if they had this information, they would of thought differently, so one cant just assume they were fine with being

two-spirited. "They do not feel they are in the wrong body simply because no one ever made them feel as if they were.

That is the difference, they are proud of who they are in the body they were given, the very definition of a

transgender" is another quote from you, in which you say that being transgender means that you are "proud of who you

are". Now personally i don't agree, and most definitions of transgender don't agree with that sentiment either, bearing

on just what exactly "you" mean.

Are you saying that transgender women should be proud of their maleness? Because often times when trans-pride is

being spoke of, its more of embracing the gender they identify with, and not the gender people thought they were. I

guess that mentality would be more appropriate for a gender-queer.

And id like you to clarify your last comment. Are you saying that transgender people don't exist in the current native

American culture or the past, or both? For i found an article using a quick search that shows the existence of a

transgender native American. http://downtowndevil.com/2011/04/21/8237/native-american-lgbtq-pride-parade/

In this article, which i am sure doesn't represent the native American culture as a whole, but since you seem to be

informative on the subject, ill ask you why would a reservation be a hostile environment for a transgender, even though

two-spirited, which you assume to be the same, should be tolerated?

"You couldn't be open on the reservation -- everyone knows everyone," she says. "My parents were involved in traditional

Native American events, and I didn't want to bring shame to my family."

I hope it doesn't come across as condescending, but it just strikes me as off, seeing as how she quotes her parents

being "traditional" with there events, and i was to understand that two-spirited people had prominence in such events.

Maybe due to western influence, although that kind of conflicts with the word "traditional".

As for your last comment about "As for transexuals who were not also homosexuals, those transitions do not have a very

high success rate from what I have read on the subject." could you provide a source on that? I tried looking for a

source, but was a bit lost, and am very skeptical to your claim.

http://androgyne.0catch.com/2spiritx.htm
http://ne2ss.typepad.com/northeast_twospirit_socie/2006/08/homosexuality_a.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-Spirit
http://books.google.com/books?id=1ha9GgWNmy0C&pg=PA38&lpg=PA38&dq=hopi+two+spirit&source=bl&ots=MKLxm8qVFl&sig=iZxstlf3DmUB85eI1JtmirQgP-I&hl=en&sa=X&ei=b9wzUcyuCZLS9AS2xoDABQ&ved=0CE0Q6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=hopi%20two%20spirit&f=false
http://www.dancingtoeaglespiritsociety.org/twospirit.php
http://www.willsworld.org/twospiritq-a.html

Hopi are VERY much alive, but also you should understand the traditional Hopi do not use technology, and also do not allow technology into many of the areas, especially in sacred areas, where also the majority of our Two spirits live, as they are also considered highly spiritual. Technology is forbidden in sacred kivas. Finding information on the internet is often difficult to do, and when people post pictures, they are often forced to take them down by the tribal elders, as this is considered a great disrespect. Additonally, you should understand many tribes do not recognize the words used as meaning the same thing, they do not recognize " transgender" or " gay" and often if you ask them if they have any gays, they will tell you no, but if you use the word "winkle" instead they will understand. You should also understand that due to the forced assimilation of the catholic church, many tribes have been forced to keep their practices in secret, and this has made many unwilling to openly discuss these things with outsiders due to the past persecution. Even in my own childhood I was tied to chair and made to read the bible aloud at these schools the US government forced us to attend, and much worsehappened to others at my school. They actually forcefully raped boys as punishment. This was my school:
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/33984/HOPI-MOMS-TELL-SENATE-OF-CHILD-ABUSE.html?pg=all
Much of the abuse that has happened against the tribe has forced most of our people into not trusting outsiders with what my tribe considers spiritual matters. When I am back at my PC I will be able to look for more information for you on the subject.
I am currently unable to find the original papers I read ( as this was a while back) on regret and suicide statistics after Reassignment surgery, but I found these easily via google search:
http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0016885
http://gendertrender.wordpress.com/tag/sex-change-regret/
http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/TS/Warning.html

For your data on "regret and suicide statistics after Reassignment surgery" the only source that is really relevant is the first, as the other two are anecdotal accounts, and there is always a subsection of transgenders/transsexuals who regret their surgery and opt for a more androgynous look or completely original one.

And even the first source uses data ranging from 1973-2003, which i don't think is as relevant. You have to take into account the time frame that that data was taken, and that even back then, there was so much changing about the concept of even having transsexual people be genuine about themselves, that any data from way back when might not be representative of the probably closeted majority. Also,given that gender studies are such a turbulent field. I would of preferred a source that had been more recent, but due to a lack of data in general, its to be expected. As for the article itself, it merely concluded that :
.
.
"Our findings suggest that sex reassignment, although alleviating gender dysphoria, may not suffice as treatment for transsexualism, and should inspire improved psychiatric and somatic care after sex reassignment for this patient group."
.
.
It is still common for transgenders to commit suicide after their surgery, but not out of their dysphoria, the article doesn't show what is the cause of these suicides, nor attempts to, so it could be anyone guess. Maybe their families rejected them for having the surgery done in the first place, causing them depression. Or maybe a lover found out about their trans-status and had a heated argument. The reasons for suicide could be limitless, and to say that they are a result of the surgery themselves is a bit of a misrepresentation of the data provided.

As for saying the "Hopi are VERY much alive", I am not sure if that is just the way you started your paragraph, or a commentary on something I said. Either way i am sorry if i offended your culture in any way in by saying they were somehow "dead"?. I am quite uninformed on the native American culture and will educate myself on it, as i am assume most people in America are equally uninformed.

I guess the one reason i keep engaging you in discussion is that we cant come upon a agreement on which definition takes precedence over which,two-spirited or transgender.And one of your sources actually highlighted the issue for me. If i am understanding, you were raised or adopted the view point of the Hopi native American as your religion , which after reading about I came to respect as a very tolerant and progressive society for its time, championing women's rights and the practice of volunteerism also seemed to be very cool. However i am using terminology in accordance to contemporary standards in which other transgender's use, and the doctors /other professionals who treat them. This is not to say that my definitions are superior than yours, just different.

This one particular source i think might be your viewpoint on two-spirited and trans-people, and forgive me if I am putting words in your mouth:
.
http://www.willsworld.org/twospiritq-a.html
.
.
"Were two-spirits gay and lesbian or were they transsexuals?

All of the above. The two-spirit tradition accommodated a diverse range of individuals and individual differences. Western terms, which focus on a single trait, such as sexual preference or gender identity, fail to capture the range and nuances of two-spirit roles, especially their economic and spiritual dimensions. Although many two-spirit people cross-dressed, others did not, and some dressed in styles distinct from both men and women. And while two-spirits typically formed relationships with members of their own biological sex who were not two spirits these were not viewed as "homosexual" relationships because the gender identity of two spirits was considered different from the gender identity of their partner."
.
.
Using that lenses of two-spirited in reference to trans-people i cant say my supposed view of your perspective is that of an incorrect definition, just a very broad one. And by seeing this I have gained a bit more clarity into your point of view.

However, do you see mine?

I assume by your tone that you are very passionate about your culture and their ways, well i am equally passionate on trans-people's right to identify as a women /man. By denying them this , you deny them their very existence, their essence and core is what they see it to be and they just want to make themselves as they see themselves. I hope, that as a native American of the Hopi tribe, you can at least sympathize with their notions.
.
.
.
.
.
.
(I don't mean to imply that native American purging from the western hemisphere is comparable in magnitude to the dismissiveness of people to trans-people's identities, i was merely making a comparison on how both are seen in a negative light)

Rosiv:

Lil devils x:

Rosiv:

What are you taking about? In that vary source you just linked it denotes the possibility of a transgender wanting to

change their body right in the chart "Depends - some transgender people qualify for a diagnosis, others do not." was a

direct quote from it. That line shows that some transgender people qualify for the Gender dysphoria condition and

therefore

also would need to seek proper treatment, HRT or SRS, if need be. When a transgender person decides that SRS will help

them, that is the stage they become transsexual. The best way to define it would be Transgender being a Main class, and

transsexual being a subclass, in my opinion. As for your other claims i mean no offense on your native American culture,

but i got my definition from the source i presented, if you have a alternate valid definition ill take a source over

your word. You assume that "The reason they never felt uncomfortable in their own bodies is they were never made to feel

uncomfortable in their own bodies because they held their place of honor for the way they were". However you cant really

prove that unless they were here today. How do you know they weren't uncomfortable? Did they claim so?, and even if they

did, were they educated in their options to live a female life, even though they were born physically male, through HRT?

Maybe if they had this information, they would of thought differently, so one cant just assume they were fine with being

two-spirited. "They do not feel they are in the wrong body simply because no one ever made them feel as if they were.

That is the difference, they are proud of who they are in the body they were given, the very definition of a

transgender" is another quote from you, in which you say that being transgender means that you are "proud of who you

are". Now personally i don't agree, and most definitions of transgender don't agree with that sentiment either, bearing

on just what exactly "you" mean.

Are you saying that transgender women should be proud of their maleness? Because often times when trans-pride is

being spoke of, its more of embracing the gender they identify with, and not the gender people thought they were. I

guess that mentality would be more appropriate for a gender-queer.

And id like you to clarify your last comment. Are you saying that transgender people don't exist in the current native

American culture or the past, or both? For i found an article using a quick search that shows the existence of a

transgender native American. http://downtowndevil.com/2011/04/21/8237/native-american-lgbtq-pride-parade/

In this article, which i am sure doesn't represent the native American culture as a whole, but since you seem to be

informative on the subject, ill ask you why would a reservation be a hostile environment for a transgender, even though

two-spirited, which you assume to be the same, should be tolerated?

"You couldn't be open on the reservation -- everyone knows everyone," she says. "My parents were involved in traditional

Native American events, and I didn't want to bring shame to my family."

I hope it doesn't come across as condescending, but it just strikes me as off, seeing as how she quotes her parents

being "traditional" with there events, and i was to understand that two-spirited people had prominence in such events.

Maybe due to western influence, although that kind of conflicts with the word "traditional".

As for your last comment about "As for transexuals who were not also homosexuals, those transitions do not have a very

high success rate from what I have read on the subject." could you provide a source on that? I tried looking for a

source, but was a bit lost, and am very skeptical to your claim.

http://androgyne.0catch.com/2spiritx.htm
http://ne2ss.typepad.com/northeast_twospirit_socie/2006/08/homosexuality_a.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-Spirit
http://books.google.com/books?id=1ha9GgWNmy0C&pg=PA38&lpg=PA38&dq=hopi+two+spirit&source=bl&ots=MKLxm8qVFl&sig=iZxstlf3DmUB85eI1JtmirQgP-I&hl=en&sa=X&ei=b9wzUcyuCZLS9AS2xoDABQ&ved=0CE0Q6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=hopi%20two%20spirit&f=false
http://www.dancingtoeaglespiritsociety.org/twospirit.php
http://www.willsworld.org/twospiritq-a.html

Hopi are VERY much alive, but also you should understand the traditional Hopi do not use technology, and also do not allow technology into many of the areas, especially in sacred areas, where also the majority of our Two spirits live, as they are also considered highly spiritual. Technology is forbidden in sacred kivas. Finding information on the internet is often difficult to do, and when people post pictures, they are often forced to take them down by the tribal elders, as this is considered a great disrespect. Additonally, you should understand many tribes do not recognize the words used as meaning the same thing, they do not recognize " transgender" or " gay" and often if you ask them if they have any gays, they will tell you no, but if you use the word "winkle" instead they will understand. You should also understand that due to the forced assimilation of the catholic church, many tribes have been forced to keep their practices in secret, and this has made many unwilling to openly discuss these things with outsiders due to the past persecution. Even in my own childhood I was tied to chair and made to read the bible aloud at these schools the US government forced us to attend, and much worsehappened to others at my school. They actually forcefully raped boys as punishment. This was my school:
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/33984/HOPI-MOMS-TELL-SENATE-OF-CHILD-ABUSE.html?pg=all
Much of the abuse that has happened against the tribe has forced most of our people into not trusting outsiders with what my tribe considers spiritual matters. When I am back at my PC I will be able to look for more information for you on the subject.
I am currently unable to find the original papers I read ( as this was a while back) on regret and suicide statistics after Reassignment surgery, but I found these easily via google search:
http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0016885
http://gendertrender.wordpress.com/tag/sex-change-regret/
http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/TS/Warning.html

For your data on "regret and suicide statistics after Reassignment surgery" the only source that is really relevant is the first, as the other two are anecdotal accounts, and there is always a subsection of transgenders/transsexuals who regret their surgery and opt for a more androgynous look or completely original one.

And even the first source uses data ranging from 1973-2003, which i don't think is as relevant. You have to take into account the time frame that that data was taken, and that even back then, there was so much changing about the concept of even having transsexual people be genuine about themselves, that any data from way back when might not be representative of the probably closeted majority. Also,given that gender studies are such a turbulent field. I would of preferred a source that had been more recent, but due to a lack of data in general, its to be expected. As for the article itself, it merely concluded that :
.
.
"Our findings suggest that sex reassignment, although alleviating gender dysphoria, may not suffice as treatment for transsexualism, and should inspire improved psychiatric and somatic care after sex reassignment for this patient group."
.
.
It is still common for transgenders to commit suicide after their surgery, but not out of their dysphoria, the article doesn't show what is the cause of these suicides, nor attempts to, so it could be anyone guess. Maybe their families rejected them for having the surgery done in the first place, causing them depression. Or maybe a lover found out about their trans-status and had a heated argument. The reasons for suicide could be limitless, and to say that they are a result of the surgery themselves is a bit of a misrepresentation of the data provided.

As for saying the "Hopi are VERY much alive", I am not sure if that is just the way you started your paragraph, or a commentary on something I said. Either way i am sorry if i offended your culture in any way in by saying they were somehow "dead"?. I am quite uninformed on the native American culture and will educate myself on it, as i am assume most people in America are equally uninformed.

I guess the one reason i keep engaging you in discussion is that we cant come upon a agreement on which definition takes precedence over which,two-spirited or transgender.And one of your sources actually highlighted the issue for me. If i am understanding, you were raised or adopted the view point of the Hopi native American as your religion , which after reading about I came to respect as a very tolerant and progressive society for its time, championing women's rights and the practice of volunteerism also seemed to be very cool. However i am using terminology in accordance to contemporary standards in which other transgender's use, and the doctors /other professionals who treat them. This is not to say that my definitions are superior than yours, just different.

This one particular source i think might be your viewpoint on two-spirited and trans-people, and forgive me if I am putting words in your mouth:
.
http://www.willsworld.org/twospiritq-a.html
.
.
"Were two-spirits gay and lesbian or were they transsexuals?

All of the above. The two-spirit tradition accommodated a diverse range of individuals and individual differences. Western terms, which focus on a single trait, such as sexual preference or gender identity, fail to capture the range and nuances of two-spirit roles, especially their economic and spiritual dimensions. Although many two-spirit people cross-dressed, others did not, and some dressed in styles distinct from both men and women. And while two-spirits typically formed relationships with members of their own biological sex who were not two spirits these were not viewed as "homosexual" relationships because the gender identity of two spirits was considered different from the gender identity of their partner."
.
.
Using that lenses of two-spirited in reference to trans-people i cant say my supposed view of your perspective is that of an incorrect definition, just a very broad one. And by seeing this I have gained a bit more clarity into your point of view.

However, do you see mine?

I assume by your tone that you are very passionate about your culture and their ways, well i am equally passionate on trans-people's right to identify as a women /man. By denying them this , you deny them their very existence, their essence and core is what they see it to be and they just want to make themselves as they see themselves. I hope, that as a native American of the Hopi tribe, you can at least sympathize with their notions.
.
.
.
.
.
.
(I don't mean to imply that native American purging from the western hemisphere is comparable in magnitude to the dismissiveness of people to trans-people's identities, i was merely making a comparison on how both are seen in a negative light)

I think most of the misunderstanding was a cultural barrier, and I was attempting to clarify that.
I think you should also understand that the transgender persecution and the killing and caging of the tribes of the Americas are actually one in the same fight. You see, from our history handed down from grandfathers and elders, our Two spirits in our society are the highest positions in our society, both social and spiritually, and Our openess and acceptance of our own sexuality was found to be quite disturbing to the colonists who did not understand our beliefs and thought them to to be " evil". In battle they killed our two spirits first. When they attacked villages the two spirits were the first to be killed. They did not want our culture undermining their own, they did not want their children adopting our customs of sex relations outside of marriage, and Homosexual sex. They wanted to force our people into their idea of " man and woman genders and marriage only" and not accept or be influenced by our beliefs, so they rounded our people up and forced them on to resevations when they finally found trouble stomaching the outright extermination of our people hard to continue. They did not want their society to be influenced by ours, so they caged ours to be " out of sight out of mind" and then brought in the church and the mafia to rule over us to force assimilate us. We were told we were evil for our beliefs. The reason now we still protect our two spirts in the sacred areas protected from outsiders is due to the persecution of what our tribe considerd our most spiritual people.

I do understand your plight, probably more than you think I do, but I also hope you have gained more of an understanding of what I am saying here. There is nothing wrong with someone who is woman in mans body, it is healthy and acceptable to be so, in fact it is a blessing, regardless of what others who do not understand think. To tell someone they need to have medical treatment or very harsh surgery when there is nothing wrong with them makes them think there IS something wrong with being the way they are. No one should be pressured into medication when they are perfect the way they are. Helping them understand how to love themselves is far more important than anything they could possibly do to their bodies.

Imagine if all the children growing up in this society, had instead grown up in a society where they were honored for their great gift of being born female in a male body instead? How many do you think would be depressed or wanting to change themselves? When they are raised in a healthy, accepting environment, they are very happy with their lives. I see nothing wrong with them, and to tell them that there is something wrong with them would be just as bad as someone trying to tell a gay man he has to marry a woman. There is nothing wrong with them that needs to be fixed, it s the society that needs to be fixed, not them.

As for the most "relevant link" I provided above in regards to regret, I disagree the first was the most important, Those are just nameless, faceless stats, to me the other links are more important than the first, people are not stats, each one whose life is affected matters as much as the whole pile of them. We should never forget that.

Some people have posted videos here to help clear up the transgender situation so I figured I would add one that has some interesting commentary on the subject.

In light of this discussion, the funniest part of that video is where Eric Idle says "Don't you oppress me" and then John Cleese's reaction. It much like the frustration I have had arguing with some in this thread.

cthulhuspawn82:
Some people have posted videos here to help clear up the transgender situation so I figured I would add one that has some interesting commentary on the subject.
[...]
In light of this discussion, the funniest part of that video is where Eric Idle says "Don't you oppress me" and then John Cleese's reaction. It much like the frustration I have had arguing with some in this thread.

Eh, kind of missing the point. There's more to wanting to be a woman than wanting to have babies/become pregnant. We could point out infertile women or women who don't plan to ever have children, for instance. I'd say this is more about how people are (and want to be) treated and seen and themselves behave and much less about the ability to become pregnant.

Lil devils x:

Rosiv:

Lil devils x:

http://androgyne.0catch.com/2spiritx.htm
http://ne2ss.typepad.com/northeast_twospirit_socie/2006/08/homosexuality_a.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-Spirit
http://books.google.com/books?id=1ha9GgWNmy0C&pg=PA38&lpg=PA38&dq=hopi+two+spirit&source=bl&ots=MKLxm8qVFl&sig=iZxstlf3DmUB85eI1JtmirQgP-I&hl=en&sa=X&ei=b9wzUcyuCZLS9AS2xoDABQ&ved=0CE0Q6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=hopi%20two%20spirit&f=false
http://www.dancingtoeaglespiritsociety.org/twospirit.php
http://www.willsworld.org/twospiritq-a.html

Hopi are VERY much alive, but also you should understand the traditional Hopi do not use technology, and also do not allow technology into many of the areas, especially in sacred areas, where also the majority of our Two spirits live, as they are also considered highly spiritual. Technology is forbidden in sacred kivas. Finding information on the internet is often difficult to do, and when people post pictures, they are often forced to take them down by the tribal elders, as this is considered a great disrespect. Additonally, you should understand many tribes do not recognize the words used as meaning the same thing, they do not recognize " transgender" or " gay" and often if you ask them if they have any gays, they will tell you no, but if you use the word "winkle" instead they will understand. You should also understand that due to the forced assimilation of the catholic church, many tribes have been forced to keep their practices in secret, and this has made many unwilling to openly discuss these things with outsiders due to the past persecution. Even in my own childhood I was tied to chair and made to read the bible aloud at these schools the US government forced us to attend, and much worsehappened to others at my school. They actually forcefully raped boys as punishment. This was my school:
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/33984/HOPI-MOMS-TELL-SENATE-OF-CHILD-ABUSE.html?pg=all
Much of the abuse that has happened against the tribe has forced most of our people into not trusting outsiders with what my tribe considers spiritual matters. When I am back at my PC I will be able to look for more information for you on the subject.
I am currently unable to find the original papers I read ( as this was a while back) on regret and suicide statistics after Reassignment surgery, but I found these easily via google search:
http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0016885
http://gendertrender.wordpress.com/tag/sex-change-regret/
http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/TS/Warning.html

For your data on "regret and suicide statistics after Reassignment surgery" the only source that is really relevant is the first, as the other two are anecdotal accounts, and there is always a subsection of transgenders/transsexuals who regret their surgery and opt for a more androgynous look or completely original one.

And even the first source uses data ranging from 1973-2003, which i don't think is as relevant. You have to take into account the time frame that that data was taken, and that even back then, there was so much changing about the concept of even having transsexual people be genuine about themselves, that any data from way back when might not be representative of the probably closeted majority. Also,given that gender studies are such a turbulent field. I would of preferred a source that had been more recent, but due to a lack of data in general, its to be expected. As for the article itself, it merely concluded that :
.
.
"Our findings suggest that sex reassignment, although alleviating gender dysphoria, may not suffice as treatment for transsexualism, and should inspire improved psychiatric and somatic care after sex reassignment for this patient group."
.
.
It is still common for transgenders to commit suicide after their surgery, but not out of their dysphoria, the article doesn't show what is the cause of these suicides, nor attempts to, so it could be anyone guess. Maybe their families rejected them for having the surgery done in the first place, causing them depression. Or maybe a lover found out about their trans-status and had a heated argument. The reasons for suicide could be limitless, and to say that they are a result of the surgery themselves is a bit of a misrepresentation of the data provided.

As for saying the "Hopi are VERY much alive", I am not sure if that is just the way you started your paragraph, or a commentary on something I said. Either way i am sorry if i offended your culture in any way in by saying they were somehow "dead"?. I am quite uninformed on the native American culture and will educate myself on it, as i am assume most people in America are equally uninformed.

I guess the one reason i keep engaging you in discussion is that we cant come upon a agreement on which definition takes precedence over which,two-spirited or transgender.And one of your sources actually highlighted the issue for me. If i am understanding, you were raised or adopted the view point of the Hopi native American as your religion , which after reading about I came to respect as a very tolerant and progressive society for its time, championing women's rights and the practice of volunteerism also seemed to be very cool. However i am using terminology in accordance to contemporary standards in which other transgender's use, and the doctors /other professionals who treat them. This is not to say that my definitions are superior than yours, just different.

This one particular source i think might be your viewpoint on two-spirited and trans-people, and forgive me if I am putting words in your mouth:
.
http://www.willsworld.org/twospiritq-a.html
.
.
"Were two-spirits gay and lesbian or were they transsexuals?

All of the above. The two-spirit tradition accommodated a diverse range of individuals and individual differences. Western terms, which focus on a single trait, such as sexual preference or gender identity, fail to capture the range and nuances of two-spirit roles, especially their economic and spiritual dimensions. Although many two-spirit people cross-dressed, others did not, and some dressed in styles distinct from both men and women. And while two-spirits typically formed relationships with members of their own biological sex who were not two spirits these were not viewed as "homosexual" relationships because the gender identity of two spirits was considered different from the gender identity of their partner."
.
.
Using that lenses of two-spirited in reference to trans-people i cant say my supposed view of your perspective is that of an incorrect definition, just a very broad one. And by seeing this I have gained a bit more clarity into your point of view.

However, do you see mine?

I assume by your tone that you are very passionate about your culture and their ways, well i am equally passionate on trans-people's right to identify as a women /man. By denying them this , you deny them their very existence, their essence and core is what they see it to be and they just want to make themselves as they see themselves. I hope, that as a native American of the Hopi tribe, you can at least sympathize with their notions.
.
.
.
.
.
.
(I don't mean to imply that native American purging from the western hemisphere is comparable in magnitude to the dismissiveness of people to trans-people's identities, i was merely making a comparison on how both are seen in a negative light)

I think most of the misunderstanding was a cultural barrier, and I was attempting to clarify that.
I think you should also understand that the transgender persecution and the killing and caging of the tribes of the Americas are actually one in the same fight. You see, from our history handed down from grandfathers and elders, our Two spirits in our society are the highest positions in our society, both social and spiritually, and Our openess and acceptance of our own sexuality was found to be quite disturbing to the colonists who did not understand our beliefs and thought them to to be " evil". In battle they killed our two spirits first. When they attacked villages the two spirits were the first to be killed. They did not want our culture undermining their own, they did not want their children adopting our customs of sex relations outside of marriage, and Homosexual sex. They wanted to force our people into their idea of " man and woman genders and marriage only" and not accept or be influenced by our beliefs, so they rounded our people up and forced them on to resevations when they finally found trouble stomaching the outright extermination of our people hard to continue. They did not want their society to be influenced by ours, so they caged ours to be " out of sight out of mind" and then brought in the church and the mafia to rule over us to force assimilate us. We were told we were evil for our beliefs. The reason now we still protect our two spirts in the sacred areas protected from outsiders is due to the persecution of what our tribe considerd our most spiritual people.

I do understand your plight, probably more than you think I do, but I also hope you have gained more of an understanding of what I am saying here. There is nothing wrong with someone who is woman in mans body, it is healthy and acceptable to be so, in fact it is a blessing, regardless of what others who do not understand think. To tell someone they need to have medical treatment or very harsh surgery when there is nothing wrong with them makes them think there IS something wrong with being the way they are. No one should be pressured into medication when they are perfect the way they are. Helping them understand how to love themselves is far more important than anything they could possibly do to their bodies.

Imagine if all the children growing up in this society, had instead grown up in a society where they were honored for their great gift of being born female in a male body instead? How many do you think would be depressed or wanting to change themselves? When they are raised in a healthy, accepting environment, they are very happy with their lives. I see nothing wrong with them, and to tell them that there is something wrong with them would be just as bad as someone trying to tell a gay man he has to marry a woman. There is nothing wrong with them that needs to be fixed, it s the society that needs to be fixed, not them.

As for the most "relevant link" I provided above in regards to regret, I disagree the first was the most important, Those are just nameless, faceless stats, to me the other links are more important than the first, people are not stats, each one whose life is affected matters as much as the whole pile of them. We should never forget that.

...I guess you don't get it...
I really wish you did, as I was reading you post i found my self very pleased at your position until...

". To tell someone they need to have medical treatment or very harsh surgery when there is nothing wrong with them makes them think there IS something wrong with being the way they are."

That is the entirety of my argument, they SHOULD be allowed to change their bodies.
You have no evidence that doctor's are pressuring them, nor society, just baseless conjecture, so to make just a grand claim, and to imply that there is "nothing wrong with them" is still using that dismissive attitude. You deny they the right to exist as they want, when you claim they don't "need" this surgery. That is between them, and their medical professional, and if they both come to a consensus that it is necessary, then it is.

Maybe you think that they could be like the two-spirited people of your tribe, and thats is a very noble thought, but simply
by the suicide rate alone, ill have to disagree. In fact, i think the native American culture is the exception when it comes to tolerant cultures about LGBT people, as in other culture's, gender variants tend to be of low-social standing.

And as for your claim that people are more important than " nameless, faceless stats", I am going to have to disagree with you here, i could probably find an article documenting the existence of bigotry from Native Americans, that doesn't let me make the claim that ALL native Americans are bigots. Just like the existence that 1 or 2 trans people regret doesnt denote or suggest a majority of them having this same regret. (Please dont feel insulted by the example, it was just a hypothetical).

Since I never got a response to the question of clinically disagnosed lycanthropic person, how about I use another real world example and see if that can get a response.

A diabetic who refuses to stop consuming large amounts of sugar. Their brain tells them the sugar tastes good no matter how badly their body reacts to it the brain refuses to let go of that taste association.

Taste is sensory input to keep us from consuming chemicals that have negative properties in relationship to our long term health and like any sensor it can be fooled. Logical judgement is when a human realizes that the sensory input, memories and their feelings do not match the current physical reality (there's that delusion definition again). This is where they reach enlightenment where they choose the future choice path that does match physical reality.

Zen has a statement that truth should not be confused with the method of delivery that points in truth's direction. The example they give is that a person can point with their finger at the moon, but the finger should not be confused with the moon. The real world example is the people who follow religious texts come to worship the religious text and do not realize the text is just an object pointing at a truth. My interpretation of the responses in this forum is that people can not accept that feelings aren't truth, they are only guides that may not match reality.

I admit we are moving towards the future where that reality can be rewritten. People will be completely rewritten from the genetics and have their body regrown to match that new sequence. That would handle all three issues, but that would not be the same person any longer any more than destructive teleportation is the same person coming out the far side.

micahrp:
-snip-

Your entire analogy relies upon the basis that there is something inherently important about what sex a person was born to. Why? What is the importance there, apart from the importance we assign? Your diabetes comparison doesn't apply because that is a physical demand with real physical consequences if not fulfilled, like hunger or thirst. But what life-threatening physical demands are born from being sexed male or female? Sure you can say it's "denying reality" to some extent, but what's the big deal? We deny reality all the time to live the way we want to live. From pretending the burgers from fast food joints aren't made from terrible things we wouldn't normally eat, to pretending there aren't millions of people on the other side of the world suffering in ways we can't even hope to imagine. What is so inherently important about what sex you are born as that you would be bothered by someone wanting to change it, or feeling like they should be the opposite sex?

EDIT: Sorry, I may have misunderstood what side you are on here, lol. Feel free to ignore this. I really shouldn't make early morning posts...

I'm honestly growing tired about this. Didn't we just have an "ask a transgender" thread? Shouldn't people interested in it have realised by now that both individually and as a group all the evidence points to that we kill ourselves if we don't get any help? That all the research and experience suggest we are genuine about it and it is different from just not liking gender roles?

And could someone please tell me what a spiritual/philosophical viewpoint have to do with evidence-based healthcare that's supposed to focus on the patient? Seriously? I mean no offense but to me it seems the equivalent to say "there is nothing wrong with you because my god can't make any mistakes, thus you are delusional". If you are educated in medicine then you should know that things go wrong ALL THE TIME when it comes to the human body, and that includes sex/gender (eg. various intersexual states). Even if you disagree, there is this thing about being "professional" and not wildly speculating about subjects outside your specialty. You ignore all the critic about you simply not knowing how these treatments work. Dangers of HRT? I'm at the same risk level as an normal woman, your point? Not doing it on children? A 16-years old with years of counciling is hardly a case of just giving them a bunch of pills.

You know what? I grew up in a gender-neutral enviroment. No one cared about roles or behaviour, children were allowed to find what they were comfortable with. And guess what? It worked just fine, I had no gender-issues at all as such things didn't matter. Then puberty hit. Voice got horrible, hair everywhere, couldn't recognise my mirror image, getting essentially OCDs about hurting myself and others. As far as I knew my life was over at the age of twelve and I assure you it wasn't due to external pressure but a body that essentially betrayed me.

It wasn't until I started on HRT that I actually calmed down, got rid of those horrible thoughts, started to feel and act like myself. Seriously, I'm happy to be alive and actually can look forward to the future. Due to hormones. I passed 95% of the time before I started it and had been living as a woman for over a year, still it simply wasn't enough as there was something physically wrong with my body. I have known that since I entered puberty and sought out the specialist teams on my own initative because I was losing my will to live. Due to the trans-related healthcare being backwards I ended up doing most of the job myself, the doctors did not pressure me into it. In truth they are open to people who are satisfied with an androgyne body, my endocrinologist specifically asked if I intended to keep my own genitals and knew that wasn't always the case. Simply because the hormones do far more for us than the surgery tbh.

And your statement about "transsexuals who are also homosexual"...
Now I'm personally bisexual and before that I was only into girls, as a MtF that would have made me homosexual obviously (I assure you, I have NEVER wanted to stick that thing anywhere). We did a poll on our local transsexual forum, it turned out roughly 45% straight, 40% bi and 15% gay. And throughout the discussion it was revealed that the bisexuals were the ones doing best when it came to confidence and personal comfort, the lesbians pretty close after. FtMs had confidence issues when it came to relationships due to the lack of penis (far from all, but a few). And then we have the straight girls, a lot were doing great but many had problems due to their intended partners being in the group that is the most transphobic. Straight males. Please note, a lot of straight guys are wonderful when it comes to transgirls but others are not.

Lil devils x, there is merit in your position and I have to agree that people focus too much on gender roles. The more open they are, the more free and happy many individuals become. And that includes transgenders/sexuals as it, as you stated, removes social stigma. Living in sweden I can say that there is a reason we are viewed as very accepting when it comes LGBTQ and other minorities. As I understand it, two-spirit is a great concept being centuries ahead of its time. But are you seriously suggesting that you want to lump together gay males with lesbian traswomen into a third gender that is summarised as "not gender conforming"? Don't you see the problem with that? It quite literally is a case of "equal but separate". You want to have all the people that identifies with the opposite gender have their right to identity removed and want us instead to be officially be recognized as "those other people", regardless of our own whishes?
There are people who identify as male, female, both, neither, other etc. Fine, each one to their own. Going around (with a medical degree) telling us that we don't deserve healthcare because you see us as "different" instead of what we view ourselves as? In stark contrast to the actual specialist who have actual experience? THAT is not ok. In my ears it sounds a lot like the doctors that, with no relevant experience at all, went to the countries largest newspaper and stated that transsexuals actually want to go through mandantory sterilization regardless of our pleas to let ourselves decide if we want a future family or not.

Could you please see that you have insufficient knowledge and experience to form an unbiased opinion? The thing is that the vast majority of transsexuals would disagree with you, and would actively opppose you if you tried to keep life-saving treatments away from us. If the relevant group of patients simply do not want what you propose, shouldn't you actually listen and reconsider? Isn't that the job of a medical professional after all?

Ps. I apologise if I was offensive, but if your view was the rule then I would most definitely have killed myself by now and many others with similar problems.

Rosiv:

Lil devils x:

Rosiv:

For your data on "regret and suicide statistics after Reassignment surgery" the only source that is really relevant is the first, as the other two are anecdotal accounts, and there is always a subsection of transgenders/transsexuals who regret their surgery and opt for a more androgynous look or completely original one.

And even the first source uses data ranging from 1973-2003, which i don't think is as relevant. You have to take into account the time frame that that data was taken, and that even back then, there was so much changing about the concept of even having transsexual people be genuine about themselves, that any data from way back when might not be representative of the probably closeted majority. Also,given that gender studies are such a turbulent field. I would of preferred a source that had been more recent, but due to a lack of data in general, its to be expected. As for the article itself, it merely concluded that :
.
.
"Our findings suggest that sex reassignment, although alleviating gender dysphoria, may not suffice as treatment for transsexualism, and should inspire improved psychiatric and somatic care after sex reassignment for this patient group."
.
.
It is still common for transgenders to commit suicide after their surgery, but not out of their dysphoria, the article doesn't show what is the cause of these suicides, nor attempts to, so it could be anyone guess. Maybe their families rejected them for having the surgery done in the first place, causing them depression. Or maybe a lover found out about their trans-status and had a heated argument. The reasons for suicide could be limitless, and to say that they are a result of the surgery themselves is a bit of a misrepresentation of the data provided.

As for saying the "Hopi are VERY much alive", I am not sure if that is just the way you started your paragraph, or a commentary on something I said. Either way i am sorry if i offended your culture in any way in by saying they were somehow "dead"?. I am quite uninformed on the native American culture and will educate myself on it, as i am assume most people in America are equally uninformed.

I guess the one reason i keep engaging you in discussion is that we cant come upon a agreement on which definition takes precedence over which,two-spirited or transgender.And one of your sources actually highlighted the issue for me. If i am understanding, you were raised or adopted the view point of the Hopi native American as your religion , which after reading about I came to respect as a very tolerant and progressive society for its time, championing women's rights and the practice of volunteerism also seemed to be very cool. However i am using terminology in accordance to contemporary standards in which other transgender's use, and the doctors /other professionals who treat them. This is not to say that my definitions are superior than yours, just different.

This one particular source i think might be your viewpoint on two-spirited and trans-people, and forgive me if I am putting words in your mouth:
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http://www.willsworld.org/twospiritq-a.html
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"Were two-spirits gay and lesbian or were they transsexuals?

All of the above. The two-spirit tradition accommodated a diverse range of individuals and individual differences. Western terms, which focus on a single trait, such as sexual preference or gender identity, fail to capture the range and nuances of two-spirit roles, especially their economic and spiritual dimensions. Although many two-spirit people cross-dressed, others did not, and some dressed in styles distinct from both men and women. And while two-spirits typically formed relationships with members of their own biological sex who were not two spirits these were not viewed as "homosexual" relationships because the gender identity of two spirits was considered different from the gender identity of their partner."
.
.
Using that lenses of two-spirited in reference to trans-people i cant say my supposed view of your perspective is that of an incorrect definition, just a very broad one. And by seeing this I have gained a bit more clarity into your point of view.

However, do you see mine?

I assume by your tone that you are very passionate about your culture and their ways, well i am equally passionate on trans-people's right to identify as a women /man. By denying them this , you deny them their very existence, their essence and core is what they see it to be and they just want to make themselves as they see themselves. I hope, that as a native American of the Hopi tribe, you can at least sympathize with their notions.
.
.
.
.
.
.
(I don't mean to imply that native American purging from the western hemisphere is comparable in magnitude to the dismissiveness of people to trans-people's identities, i was merely making a comparison on how both are seen in a negative light)

I think most of the misunderstanding was a cultural barrier, and I was attempting to clarify that.
I think you should also understand that the transgender persecution and the killing and caging of the tribes of the Americas are actually one in the same fight. You see, from our history handed down from grandfathers and elders, our Two spirits in our society are the highest positions in our society, both social and spiritually, and Our openess and acceptance of our own sexuality was found to be quite disturbing to the colonists who did not understand our beliefs and thought them to to be " evil". In battle they killed our two spirits first. When they attacked villages the two spirits were the first to be killed. They did not want our culture undermining their own, they did not want their children adopting our customs of sex relations outside of marriage, and Homosexual sex. They wanted to force our people into their idea of " man and woman genders and marriage only" and not accept or be influenced by our beliefs, so they rounded our people up and forced them on to resevations when they finally found trouble stomaching the outright extermination of our people hard to continue. They did not want their society to be influenced by ours, so they caged ours to be " out of sight out of mind" and then brought in the church and the mafia to rule over us to force assimilate us. We were told we were evil for our beliefs. The reason now we still protect our two spirts in the sacred areas protected from outsiders is due to the persecution of what our tribe considerd our most spiritual people.

I do understand your plight, probably more than you think I do, but I also hope you have gained more of an understanding of what I am saying here. There is nothing wrong with someone who is woman in mans body, it is healthy and acceptable to be so, in fact it is a blessing, regardless of what others who do not understand think. To tell someone they need to have medical treatment or very harsh surgery when there is nothing wrong with them makes them think there IS something wrong with being the way they are. No one should be pressured into medication when they are perfect the way they are. Helping them understand how to love themselves is far more important than anything they could possibly do to their bodies.

Imagine if all the children growing up in this society, had instead grown up in a society where they were honored for their great gift of being born female in a male body instead? How many do you think would be depressed or wanting to change themselves? When they are raised in a healthy, accepting environment, they are very happy with their lives. I see nothing wrong with them, and to tell them that there is something wrong with them would be just as bad as someone trying to tell a gay man he has to marry a woman. There is nothing wrong with them that needs to be fixed, it s the society that needs to be fixed, not them.

As for the most "relevant link" I provided above in regards to regret, I disagree the first was the most important, Those are just nameless, faceless stats, to me the other links are more important than the first, people are not stats, each one whose life is affected matters as much as the whole pile of them. We should never forget that.

...I guess you don't get it...
I really wish you did, as I was reading you post i found my self very pleased at your position until...

". To tell someone they need to have medical treatment or very harsh surgery when there is nothing wrong with them makes them think there IS something wrong with being the way they are."

That is the entirety of my argument, they SHOULD be allowed to change their bodies.
You have no evidence that doctor's are pressuring them, nor society, just baseless conjecture, so to make just a grand claim, and to imply that there is "nothing wrong with them" is still using that dismissive attitude. You deny they the right to exist as they want, when you claim they don't "need" this surgery. That is between them, and their medical professional, and if they both come to a consensus that it is necessary, then it is.

Maybe you think that they could be like the two-spirited people of your tribe, and thats is a very noble thought, but simply
by the suicide rate alone, ill have to disagree. In fact, i think the native American culture is the exception when it comes to tolerant cultures about LGBT people, as in other culture's, gender variants tend to be of low-social standing.

And as for your claim that people are more important than " nameless, faceless stats", I am going to have to disagree with you here, i could probably find an article documenting the existence of bigotry from Native Americans, that doesn't let me make the claim that ALL native Americans are bigots. Just like the existence that 1 or 2 trans people regret doesnt denote or suggest a majority of them having this same regret. (Please dont feel insulted by the example, it was just a hypothetical).

I do fully understand what you are saying here, you are under the impresion that I wish to withhold their choices, but that is not what I am saying here. A Physician holds a great deal of responsibility, and is not only considered an " authority figure" but also a patient often views what a physician tells them with much more weight than what any other person may tell them, they are not just influential, but rather they view them as the person who holds the answers. Children are taught that " you do as the Doctor says" and you will be okay. They trust us with their very lives. People do not often question what their Doctors tell them, when the truth is we are just people too. We are flawed human beings, and if a physician fails to remember that and thinks they have all the answers, they really should not be practicing anymore, bu sadly this exists greatly in our industry we call it the " God syndrome", and no I would not want a physician with the " God syndrome" treating me or any of my patients. Often in their eagerness they lose sight of what we are here for. I am not saying we should withhold medicine from those who need it, I am saying we should be sure that medicine is what is what will best help them. It is like the difference between a physician who prescribes antibiotics every time a child is sick, they are not doing that child any favors, as antibiotics do more harm than good when a child has a virus, and have no effect on the virus itself. rather than prescribe medication every time a child is sick, they should prescribe treatment that is for the best health of the child. Instead of medicine, the child may need dietary changes, fluids, and rest instead.

You can go to 5 different physicians with the same health problem and get 5 different diagnosis, 5 different treatments. This is what you should understand. Medicine is not perfect and does not hold all the answers. For some to suggest that the standard of care for a transgendered person, ( noting the difference stated above as Transgendered does not mean one who wishes to change their body, and Transexual does) you are suggesting telling people who had no intention of changing their body that they should do so for the betterment of their own health. If the depression and suicide rate were actually lower among those who have gone through these procedures, you might be able to say that it is " helping", but the sad fact is it is not, they are changing their bodies, but not healing the person inside them. You should heal the person inside them before attempting to do anything to the body.

I do not think medication or surgery should be suggested, rather have it available and allow them to bring it up instead, but never be told they should, or that they "require" this to be healthy, because the truth is that will not solve their problems. It is like when you go to a cosmetic surgon who specializes in " face lifts" of course he iis going to try and sell you one. That is how he makes a living! Telling people there is something wrong with their face and he can fix it, even if there is nothing wrong with their face. Rather than approach this as "lets go to the vagina store and get a vagina so we can be a whole girl", as often breast implants or nose jobs are approached these days, it should approached with much more care. Instead they should be told there is nothing wrong with them and they are perfect the way they are and that it is natural and healthy to be female in a males body and have the otpions to change that available, but not encourage them to take that route. They should be told of every possible thing that could go wrong, and this is only superficial and if they still wish to do so after that, it could remain a remote very imperfect possibility rather than offer this up as a "solution to all their problems". You see, the problem being here if they do not love themselves before the surgery, chances are they will not afterwards. Society will not suddenly accept them, it is not a " cure". For it to be sold as the solution to their problem is wrong to do to them, and when they realize it did not " cure" them of their problems, and also creates new problems for them they often become more depressed than they were prior.

Obviously what they are doing currently is not solving the problem, as the suicide rates are still staggering even for post op patients, and honestly I don't think anything short of "curing society" will.

http://waltheyer.typepad.com/blog/2012/03/sex-change-51-attempt-suicide-have-deep-regret-or-will-not-adjust.html

Do I think they could be " just like the two spirits of my community"? I think they are exactly like the two spirits, since they are the two spirits of my community, they just have been treated so poorly by this society, they don't understand what it is like to not live under such cruel conditions.

Angelowl:
I'm honestly growing tired about this. Didn't we just have an "ask a transgender" thread? Shouldn't people interested in it have realised by now that both individually and as a group all the evidence points to that we kill ourselves if we don't get any help? That all the research and experience suggest we are genuine about it and it is different from just not liking gender roles?

And could someone please tell me what a spiritual/philosophical viewpoint have to do with evidence-based healthcare that's supposed to focus on the patient? Seriously? I mean no offense but to me it seems the equivalent to say "there is nothing wrong with you because my god can't make any mistakes, thus you are delusional". If you are educated in medicine then you should know that things go wrong ALL THE TIME when it comes to the human body, and that includes sex/gender (eg. various intersexual states). Even if you disagree, there is this thing about being "professional" and not wildly speculating about subjects outside your specialty. You ignore all the critic about you simply not knowing how these treatments work. Dangers of HRT? I'm at the same risk level as an normal woman, your point? Not doing it on children? A 16-years old with years of counciling is hardly a case of just giving them a bunch of pills.

You know what? I grew up in a gender-neutral enviroment. No one cared about roles or behaviour, children were allowed to find what they were comfortable with. And guess what? It worked just fine, I had no gender-issues at all as such things didn't matter. Then puberty hit. Voice got horrible, hair everywhere, couldn't recognise my mirror image, getting essentially OCDs about hurting myself and others. As far as I knew my life was over at the age of twelve and I assure you it wasn't due to external pressure but a body that essentially betrayed me.

It wasn't until I started on HRT that I actually calmed down, got rid of those horrible thoughts, started to feel and act like myself. Seriously, I'm happy to be alive and actually can look forward to the future. Due to hormones. I passed 95% of the time before I started it and had been living as a woman for over a year, still it simply wasn't enough as there was something physically wrong with my body. I have known that since I entered puberty and sought out the specialist teams on my own initative because I was losing my will to live. Due to the trans-related healthcare being backwards I ended up doing most of the job myself, the doctors did not pressure me into it. In truth they are open to people who are satisfied with an androgyne body, my endocrinologist specifically asked if I intended to keep my own genitals and knew that wasn't always the case. Simply because the hormones do far more for us than the surgery tbh.

And your statement about "transsexuals who are also homosexual"...
Now I'm personally bisexual and before that I was only into girls, as a MtF that would have made me homosexual obviously (I assure you, I have NEVER wanted to stick that thing anywhere). We did a poll on our local transsexual forum, it turned out roughly 45% straight, 40% bi and 15% gay. And throughout the discussion it was revealed that the bisexuals were the ones doing best when it came to confidence and personal comfort, the lesbians pretty close after. FtMs had confidence issues when it came to relationships due to the lack of penis (far from all, but a few). And then we have the straight girls, a lot were doing great but many had problems due to their intended partners being in the group that is the most transphobic. Straight males. Please note, a lot of straight guys are wonderful when it comes to transgirls but others are not.

Lil devils x, there is merit in your position and I have to agree that people focus too much on gender roles. The more open they are, the more free and happy many individuals become. And that includes transgenders/sexuals as it, as you stated, removes social stigma. Living in sweden I can say that there is a reason we are viewed as very accepting when it comes LGBTQ and other minorities. As I understand it, two-spirit is a great concept being centuries ahead of its time. But are you seriously suggesting that you want to lump together gay males with lesbian traswomen into a third gender that is summarised as "not gender conforming"? Don't you see the problem with that? It quite literally is a case of "equal but separate". You want to have all the people that identifies with the opposite gender have their right to identity removed and want us instead to be officially be recognized as "those other people", regardless of our own whishes?
There are people who identify as male, female, both, neither, other etc. Fine, each one to their own. Going around (with a medical degree) telling us that we don't deserve healthcare because you see us as "different" instead of what we view ourselves as? In stark contrast to the actual specialist who have actual experience? THAT is not ok. In my ears it sounds a lot like the doctors that, with no relevant experience at all, went to the countries largest newspaper and stated that transsexuals actually want to go through mandantory sterilization regardless of our pleas to let ourselves decide if we want a future family or not.

Could you please see that you have insufficient knowledge and experience to form an unbiased opinion? The thing is that the vast majority of transsexuals would disagree with you, and would actively opppose you if you tried to keep life-saving treatments away from us. If the relevant group of patients simply do not want what you propose, shouldn't you actually listen and reconsider? Isn't that the job of a medical professional after all?

Ps. I apologise if I was offensive, but if your view was the rule then I would most definitely have killed myself by now and many others with similar problems.

I had written you a well thought out lengthy respons, and regretfuly, I am still not at my pc and this computer ate it.

I would like to clarify a few things.

1) I separate transgender and transexual into by definition:
Transgender does not have surgery, does not wish to change their body. Transexual sometimes has surgery, and does change their body.
http://www.diffen.com/difference/Transgender_vs_Transsexual
Surgery:
Transgender
No (never)
Transexual
Yes (often but not always)
So no a person who does not want to change their body should not be told they should.

2)for clarification purposes Referce sexuality via born physical sex, rather than gender: Homosexual would be born male who enjoys homosexual sex with other males, or born female who enjoys homosexual sex with other females. Yes when you start trying to sort it by gender it gets quite confusing. As for those who were not happy with sex after surgery, you have stated you did not " want to stick that thing anywhere" and that is also why you do not miss doing so. ou see, thos who did have enjoyable sex by sticking it places, will not be as satisfied as you are with your results. They should be made aware of this.

3) The idea of anyone feeling " lumped together" is due to how your society treats people to begin with, There are no rules of being "two spirit" each person defines their own. It is the " grouping mentality" of your culture that would make one feel lumped. In my culture, there is great focus on the individual, not the group. No person was given the right to make a choice for another. They each choose how they wish to be and have no guidelines made for them. I think much of the misunderstanding here is that in my culture, two spirits are elevated above everyone else. When I say that it is hard to understand because your culture does not have such a high postition, not even presidents and such are at the status of a two spirit. woman in mans body would be considered to be a " superwoman" and man in womans body would be consiered to be a "superman", they do not wish to be a woman in a womans body because that would be diminishing their ablities rather than enhancing them. In your culture a woman in a mans body is viewed as " less woman" in, mine, it is viewed as more. It is not an exaggeration to say they are treated as royalty, with an entourage of willing lovers. Why would they want to be anyone else? These observations from outsiders are not an exaggeration in the least:
http://books.google.com/books?id=1ha9GgWNmy0C&pg=PA38&lpg=PA38&dq=hopi+two+spirit&source=bl&ots=MKLxn4uZBo&sig=RcOmUVnWij5Pas916IcEpt5ra_o&hl=en&sa=X&ei=2tc0UbvKAYq68wTa3oGgBQ&ved=0CE0Q6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=hopi%20two%20spirit&f=false
Yes, they are like royalty, and can choose from anyone they wish whenever they wish, and no people are not " slaves to them" but people rarely decline an offer extended to them as they are seen as extrodinary lovers and consider it a great honor to be invited to b with one.
I know this sounds strange looking in from your culture, but yes, to tell a two spirit here they should change their bodies would be quite insulting.
4) No one is saying you should not have healthcare, the problem being of course, there is not much actual medical research done on the subject at this time, the studies we have available are shoddy at best and do not give us real conclusive evidence due to the information made available is only made available by those who make a living off of this rather than unbiased sources. The sad fact is the scientific community doesn't wish to provide it because they smply do not care enough about it to do so, so we are left with the situation of not actually having the studies we need to determine the proper course of treatment. I have read quite a bit on this subject, and thus far the experts are telling us, " we don't know yet". Much more research needs to be done in this area, and much funding will be required in order to do it. People simply have not provided that yet. This is still very experimental, and far from what most in the health industry would consider "standardized" as of yet.

People are making too big a deal over this. The kid is a boy, period. He has male sex organs, he needs to go the boys bathroom, period. If later on he decides to get a sex change than maybe, but as of now he needs to use the boys restroom like all the rest. Schools should just keep doing things like they always have, male and female restrooms and don't allow the two to mix.

I know some gay activists will get offended at me for saying that, but please keep in mind I mean no offense. But you have to face the reality and that is he is a boy no matter how much he wants to be a girl. He still has male parts, therefore he goes to the men's restroom.

Lil devils x:

Rosiv:

Lil devils x:

I think most of the misunderstanding was a cultural barrier, and I was attempting to clarify that.
I think you should also understand that the transgender persecution and the killing and caging of the tribes of the Americas are actually one in the same fight. You see, from our history handed down from grandfathers and elders, our Two spirits in our society are the highest positions in our society, both social and spiritually, and Our openess and acceptance of our own sexuality was found to be quite disturbing to the colonists who did not understand our beliefs and thought them to to be " evil". In battle they killed our two spirits first. When they attacked villages the two spirits were the first to be killed. They did not want our culture undermining their own, they did not want their children adopting our customs of sex relations outside of marriage, and Homosexual sex. They wanted to force our people into their idea of " man and woman genders and marriage only" and not accept or be influenced by our beliefs, so they rounded our people up and forced them on to resevations when they finally found trouble stomaching the outright extermination of our people hard to continue. They did not want their society to be influenced by ours, so they caged ours to be " out of sight out of mind" and then brought in the church and the mafia to rule over us to force assimilate us. We were told we were evil for our beliefs. The reason now we still protect our two spirts in the sacred areas protected from outsiders is due to the persecution of what our tribe considerd our most spiritual people.

I do understand your plight, probably more than you think I do, but I also hope you have gained more of an understanding of what I am saying here. There is nothing wrong with someone who is woman in mans body, it is healthy and acceptable to be so, in fact it is a blessing, regardless of what others who do not understand think. To tell someone they need to have medical treatment or very harsh surgery when there is nothing wrong with them makes them think there IS something wrong with being the way they are. No one should be pressured into medication when they are perfect the way they are. Helping them understand how to love themselves is far more important than anything they could possibly do to their bodies.

Imagine if all the children growing up in this society, had instead grown up in a society where they were honored for their great gift of being born female in a male body instead? How many do you think would be depressed or wanting to change themselves? When they are raised in a healthy, accepting environment, they are very happy with their lives. I see nothing wrong with them, and to tell them that there is something wrong with them would be just as bad as someone trying to tell a gay man he has to marry a woman. There is nothing wrong with them that needs to be fixed, it s the society that needs to be fixed, not them.

As for the most "relevant link" I provided above in regards to regret, I disagree the first was the most important, Those are just nameless, faceless stats, to me the other links are more important than the first, people are not stats, each one whose life is affected matters as much as the whole pile of them. We should never forget that.

...I guess you don't get it...
I really wish you did, as I was reading you post i found my self very pleased at your position until...

". To tell someone they need to have medical treatment or very harsh surgery when there is nothing wrong with them makes them think there IS something wrong with being the way they are."

That is the entirety of my argument, they SHOULD be allowed to change their bodies.
You have no evidence that doctor's are pressuring them, nor society, just baseless conjecture, so to make just a grand claim, and to imply that there is "nothing wrong with them" is still using that dismissive attitude. You deny they the right to exist as they want, when you claim they don't "need" this surgery. That is between them, and their medical professional, and if they both come to a consensus that it is necessary, then it is.

Maybe you think that they could be like the two-spirited people of your tribe, and thats is a very noble thought, but simply
by the suicide rate alone, ill have to disagree. In fact, i think the native American culture is the exception when it comes to tolerant cultures about LGBT people, as in other culture's, gender variants tend to be of low-social standing.

And as for your claim that people are more important than " nameless, faceless stats", I am going to have to disagree with you here, i could probably find an article documenting the existence of bigotry from Native Americans, that doesn't let me make the claim that ALL native Americans are bigots. Just like the existence that 1 or 2 trans people regret doesnt denote or suggest a majority of them having this same regret. (Please dont feel insulted by the example, it was just a hypothetical).

I do fully understand what you are saying here, you are under the impresion that I wish to withhold their choices, but that is not what I am saying here. A Physician holds a great deal of responsibility, and is not only considered an " authority figure" but also a patient often views what a physician tells them with much more weight than what any other person may tell them, they are not just influential, but rather they view them as the person who holds the answers. Children are taught that " you do as the Doctor says" and you will be okay. They trust us with their very lives. People do not often question what their Doctors tell them, when the truth is we are just people too. We are flawed human beings, and if a physician fails to remember that and thinks they have all the answers, they really should not be practicing anymore, bu sadly this exists greatly in our industry we call it the " God syndrome", and no I would not want a physician with the " God syndrome" treating me or any of my patients. Often in their eagerness they lose sight of what we are here for. I am not saying we should withhold medicine from those who need it, I am saying we should be sure that medicine is what is what will best help them. It is like the difference between a physician who prescribes antibiotics every time a child is sick, they are not doing that child any favors, as antibiotics do more harm than good when a child has a virus, and have no effect on the virus itself. rather than prescribe medication every time a child is sick, they should prescribe treatment that is for the best health of the child. Instead of medicine, the child may need dietary changes, fluids, and rest instead.

You can go to 5 different physicians with the same health problem and get 5 different diagnosis, 5 different treatments. This is what you should understand. Medicine is not perfect and does not hold all the answers. For some to suggest that the standard of care for a transgendered person, ( noting the difference stated above as Transgendered does not mean one who wishes to change their body, and Transexual does) you are suggesting telling people who had no intention of changing their body that they should do so for the betterment of their own health. If the depression and suicide rate were actually lower among those who have gone through these procedures, you might be able to say that it is " helping", but the sad fact is it is not, they are changing their bodies, but not healing the person inside them. You should heal the person inside them before attempting to do anything to the body.

I do not think medication or surgery should be suggested, rather have it available and allow them to bring it up instead, but never be told they should, or that they "require" this to be healthy, because the truth is that will not solve their problems. It is like when you go to a cosmetic surgon who specializes in " face lifts" of course he iis going to try and sell you one. That is how he makes a living! Telling people there is something wrong with their face and he can fix it, even if there is nothing wrong with their face. Rather than approach this as "lets go to the vagina store and get a vagina so we can be a whole girl", as often breast implants or nose jobs are approached these days, it should approached with much more care. Instead they should be told there is nothing wrong with them and they are perfect the way they are and that it is natural and healthy to be female in a males body and have the otpions to change that available, but not encourage them to take that route. They should be told of every possible thing that could go wrong, and this is only superficial and if they still wish to do so after that, it could remain a remote very imperfect possibility rather than offer this up as a "solution to all their problems". You see, the problem being here if they do not love themselves before the surgery, chances are they will not afterwards. Society will not suddenly accept them, it is not a " cure". For it to be sold as the solution to their problem is wrong to do to them, and when they realize it did not " cure" them of their problems, and also creates new problems for them they often become more depressed than they were prior.

Obviously what they are doing currently is not solving the problem, as the suicide rates are still staggering even for post op patients, and honestly I don't think anything short of "curing society" will.

http://waltheyer.typepad.com/blog/2012/03/sex-change-51-attempt-suicide-have-deep-regret-or-will-not-adjust.html

Do I think they could be " just like the two spirits of my community"? I think they are exactly like the two spirits, since they are the two spirits of my community, they just have been treated so poorly by this society, they don't understand what it is like to not live under such cruel conditions.

OK, so your against a doctor forcing his view points on a trans individual, I agree. However, do you have any evidence that this happens by large from transgender physicians? I honestly dont think you do, and pointing to the regret statistics don't reenforce that notion either, for you would then be operate under the assumption that the doctor told them this would be the best thing. Heck, often times, trans-individual have to go through a screening processes, ie: living like a women, dressing like a women in private, in order to qualify for the diagnosis of GD , which is usually required for surgery or sometimes HRT.

"It is like when you go to a cosmetic surgon who specializes in " face lifts" of course he iis going to try and sell you one. That is how he makes a living! Telling people there is something wrong with their face and he can fix it, even if there is nothing wrong with their face."

That would be true, if you had evidence that transgender doctors or even cosmetic surgeons for that matter are dishonest about their assessment on a patient. Have you any data that these doctors tell their patients that there is something wrong with them? If not, then you should really leave it at that, because without any fact of these doctors doing any wrong doing, you are just slandering a profession, and people related to it, with only your opinion as a source.

"you are suggesting telling people who had no intention of changing their body that they should do so for the betterment of their own health"

That is just it. The definitions Transgender /transgender are not set in stone. For a few years of a trans girls life, she might be living transgender(no surgry), but then decide that she wants to have it done, and gets it done, (with surgury= transsexal). I never said they HAD to, it is their desision, and unless you assume that their doctor is pushing them into it, which again you have no evidence for, its a moot point. And quite frankly, if your going to quote me,please copy paste where i made this claim so i can addressed it in better context.

"Do I think they could be " just like the two spirits of my community"? I think they are exactly like the two spirits, since they are the two spirits of my community, they just have been treated so poorly by this society, they don't understand what it is like to not live under such cruel conditions"

That is wishful thinking. You assume that gender is somehow cultural, and not in anyway possible a result of some biological interference. I can not say that you are wrong, it is possible gender is cultural, but without any evidence. I don't have any solid evidence that gender could be biological, i mean i could quote the brain studies done by zhou and the like, but i personally feel the sample size is too small to represent the majority of cases, and that the study doesn't eliminate other variables that could influence these similarities in brain structures. So what are we left with? No solid evidence of either side being right. So then what should be our priority? Trying to prove which is the origin of gender, via biological or social? No, i believe that it should be the trans-individual that should be the focus of this argument. Your assumption that trans people have been "treated poorly" in this society, i cant deny, but that doesn't mean they are any less understanding of their own situation. It comes off as pretty arrogant of you to assume how another person feels when you don't have any personal insight into their lives.

"Obviously what they are doing currently is not solving the problem, as the suicide rates are still staggering even for post op patients, and honestly I don't think anything short of "curing society" will."

http://waltheyer.typepad.com/blog/2012/03/sex-change-51-attempt-suicide-have-deep-regret-or-will-not-adjust.html

You keep on implying that "high suicides rates" mean that the surgical approach is not working, and i have already addressed this before, but will so again. That source, if you can call it that , doesn't even show the sample size, nor the date it was conducted? How am i suppose to take this in context? Was the surgery done in the 1970's?, when the method of the surgery was still in it's infancy, and resulted in a lot of lose of sexual pleasure? Could these botched surgeries be a result of the depression, and because of that suicide? Maybe the people in question had their birth sex released to the public somehow, with such little to go on, it is anyone's guess to why they committed suicide, and your implications otherwise are getting tiresome. The article doesn't address any of that. Heck, it links to a site with a bit more explanation on why data is so scarce. The person hosting the site is a regreter themselves. Don't you think its a bit bias for you to cite a site with a person who regrets their transition,for some a very emotional and long process, in that they will be more emotionally charged, to the point where their ability to judge fairly will be compromised?

I guess ill end this on a positive note and say the only part i agree on with your post is

"I do not think medication or surgery should be suggested, rather have it available and allow them to bring it up instead, but never be told they should, or that they "require" this to be healthy"

I ENTIRELY agree with this sentiment, each trans- individual should get to decide whether or no to stay transgender, or to go transsexual. But then you devolve into saying " that will not solve their problems". You have NO knowledge of that what so ever, for any data you cite is either vague or inconclusive, so why have so much conviction in saying it wont solve their problems?

It's like you think that they are just extremely gay men, who instead of getting the surgery that they choose, so they can see themselves how they want, to instead just embrace their femininity. If they could do that, that would be fine, but THERE IS NO EVIDENCE THEY CAN and that to me is extremely offensive, for you assume that EVERY trans person has this viewpoint, or can have it, which you simply cant prove by any means.

Or an analogy of sorts is also what i think your viewpoint is like; Gay people like men, I think that because my culture has the option/presence of gay men liking women and being in heterosexual relationships, that ALL GAY MEN CAN. Therefore ALL GAY MEN CAN BE IN A HETEROSEXUAL RELATIONSHIP. The problem with this logic is that it assumes that if one case exists, then all cases can exist, without acknowledging the possibility that these cases can differ from one other, or in this case, the flexibility of a gay man's sexuality.

(Please don't assume that the CAPITALIZED TEXT is me yelling at you, it was used more of a highlight on the focus of the sentence, and also please do not assume i think you of homophobic in anyway)

Lil devils x:
For some to suggest that the standard of care for a transgendered person, ( noting the difference stated above as Transgendered does not mean one who wishes to change their body, and Transexual does) you are suggesting telling people who had no intention of changing their body that they should do so for the betterment of their own health.

1) No one has suggested this.
2) There is still no consensus about the exact definition of "transgender", so please stop nitpicking away at the implication of your specific definition.
3) "transgender" is an adjective. So when you say transgendered, you just adjectived an adjective. It's kind of like saying "the greened grass".

If the depression and suicide rate were actually lower among those who have gone through these procedures, you might be able to say that it is " helping", but the sad fact is it is not, they are changing their bodies, but not healing the person inside them. You should heal the person inside them before attempting to do anything to the body.

Obviously what they are doing currently is not solving the problem, as the suicide rates are still staggering even for post op patients, and honestly I don't think anything short of "curing society" will.

http://waltheyer.typepad.com/blog/2012/03/sex-change-51-attempt-suicide-have-deep-regret-or-will-not-adjust.html

This is some very nice misrepresentation of facts.
The suicide figures come from the National transgender discrimination survey. However there is nothing in the survey to indicate any causation between transitioning and suicide. The respondents only indicated whether they had attempted suicide over the course of their entire life, whether this was pre or post transition is not indicated.

Then when you look at the "regreters" that are mentioned in the article you linked, most of these people seem to give social reasons (being shunned by family, peers, etc) as the reason for their regret. Thus this is primarily a societal issue, not a medical one.

I do not think medication or surgery should be suggested, rather have it available and allow them to bring it up instead, but never be told they should, or that they "require" this to be healthy, because the truth is that will not solve their problems.
Rather than approach this as "lets go to the vagina store and get a vagina so we can be a whole girl", as often breast implants or nose jobs are approached these days, it should approached with much more care. Instead they should be told there is nothing wrong with them and they are perfect the way they are and that it is natural and healthy to be female in a males body and have the otpions to change that available, but not encourage them to take that route. They should be told of every possible thing that could go wrong, and this is only superficial and if they still wish to do so after that, it could remain a remote very imperfect possibility rather than offer this up as a "solution to all their problems". You see, the problem being here if they do not love themselves before the surgery, chances are they will not afterwards. Society will not suddenly accept them, it is not a " cure". For it to be sold as the solution to their problem is wrong to do to them, and when they realize it did not " cure" them of their problems, and also creates new problems for them they often become more depressed than they were prior.

Okay here is a tip for you: next time you're going to rail against something and make some suggestions of how it should be, you should first make sure that you actually know what you're talking about.
A quick list of some things you seem to be getting wrong:
- nobody expects the transition to be a cure all for their problems, just for the genderdysphoria.
- the dangers and risks of every procedure are well explained.
- treatment isn't easy to come by, so saying that it is forced upon them is utterly ridiculous.
- therapy is a part of the treatment.
- people are well aware that transitioning will bring about extra problems, and still the choose to go through with it.

TheLycanKing144:
People are making too big a deal over this. The kid is a boy, period. He has male sex organs, he needs to go the boys bathroom, period. If later on he decides to get a sex change than maybe, but as of now he needs to use the boys restroom like all the rest. Schools should just keep doing things like they always have, male and female restrooms and don't allow the two to mix.

I know some gay activists will get offended at me for saying that, but please keep in mind I mean no offense. But you have to face the reality and that is he is a boy no matter how much he wants to be a girl. He still has male parts, therefore he goes to the men's restroom.

Any argument bear's on its tautology, what is true and was is not. I assume that you assume that this person is a boy because of male parts, and therefore people with male parts go to the male bathroom? But this logic has a counter example, what about people who lack male parts and still go to the male bathroom? People who were born male, but through deformity or accident lost their male parts. Why would these individuals get to use the male restroom? Why not force them into the handicapped restroom, by your definition, they are not male, since they don't have male parts, yet in any social convention the use of bathrooms by these people go unhindered. This inconstancy in logic leads me to assume that the bathroom is intended for people who look like men, and not people with male parts.
I guess you could argue that bathrooms could be limited to people with male chromosomes, and that since they are expressing these chromosomes, have male parts because of the expression, then they should use the male bathroom. Except, why should chromosomes come into play? We cant see chromosomes, nor do most people know their own. A person's chromosomes don't affect their lives unless they are reproducing, so unless bathrooms have changed from places we poop, to places we have sex, i don't see why we should stop people without male parts to use the male bathroom or people without female parts to use the female bathroom.

An interesting side note, a lot of female athletes, to their misfortune found out that they were genetically male when undergoing testing for the Olympics, this raised the question of whether or not to allow them to compete in the female subsection of the Olympics, to which they are allowed to , to date, well at least for most of the events,to my knowledge.

Lil devils x:

Obviously what they are doing currently is not solving the problem, as the suicide rates are still staggering even for post op patients, and honestly I don't think anything short of "curing society" will.

http://waltheyer.typepad.com/blog/2012/03/sex-change-51-attempt-suicide-have-deep-regret-or-will-not-adjust.html

You're taking extensive liberties with the word "obviously".
I'm calling monumental B.S. on that article, and I'd very much like to see those Dutch and American "studies".
I've gone to four different psychiatrist/psychologists, an endocrinologist, and an SRS surgeon. They average out about 30 years each of working with trans people.
They have had a cumulative grant total of TWO cases of people regretting their surgery.

As well, that article is talking about the 41% who have attempted suicide as though that's 41% of the post op crowd. Not so. 41% attempting suicide is the common statistic for -all- trans people, including those who have not, can not, or who have not yet had SRS.

You can actually see where they got the 41% from in the "sex-change regret" site they linked, which sources article: http://www.nbcnews.com/id/40279043/ns/health-health_care/
Note how that article is NOT talking about just the post-op crowd, also note this quote from the original NBC news article which was conveniently left out:
"Yet transgender people overwhelmingly say it's worth it. After transitioning, transgender people show a significant decrease in substance abuse problems and depression, for example, and their mental health significantly improves, Knudson said. ").

Nothing I have found indicates that the arguments against SRS and transitionings' viability are the result of anything other than -drastic- and flagrant manipulations of data, mixed in with some outright falsehoods.

Yeah I'm going to say that article's B.S. is to such a massive degree that it's become incomprehensible to mortal minds.

Ah, thank you. That is a much clearer picture of your view. One that is easily understandable and in many ways agreeable.

You know what? I think that you are right that one shouldn't include gender-related therapists, doctors etc for children unless one seriously thinks they could harm themselves. In that case, at least something is wrong and needed to be sort out. Honestly, the most painless way of handling it would be if society was more okay with children experimenting and letting them do their own thing. It may be just a phase, the kid might just have a different taste in clothing and when it is starting to be time for puberty. The kid should be informed beforehand what will happen, if they react negatively to the information or the puberty itself a specialist should probably be contacted.

I agree when it comes to gender-correcting treatment. A lot of the doctors (and other relevant professions) are outright horrible, either grosssly uninformed or forcing their own backwards opinions on the patient. A lot of transsexuals feels the need to overdo it when it comes to gender-stereotypical behaviour simply because some doctors accept nothing else. On the same matter some feel the need to claim to be heterosexual because in some psychiatry-literature the authors write that one has to be (read up on that myself, official medical encyclopedias used by doctors for their work). In a similar vein the patient often gets an everything or nothing kind of deal. We had a huge debate/media-shitstorm related the right to choose to opt out from certain treatments one felt unnecessary. More detailed it was between people who argued that one has to all the way through otherwise ones is just freak and deserves nothing, and people who argued that we should have the right to form families to the best of our abilities if we so wish as well as having a say in ones own life-changing decisions.

And now I will point out what you seemed to have missed despite offered a viable solution to. Society. From what I understand when it comes to transsexuals in the US one can be fired on the spot if it gets detected, be denied jobs. While having to pay for therapists and treatments out of ones own pocket, with said therapist(or a doctor) demanding that one goes full time in order to get a diagnosis. See the problem? Go to specialist, come out of the wardrobe so to speak, get fired, be refused new jobs and without you are stuck without the treatment either way. The solution from what I have heard is to simply stock up on money and transition later in life, with the treatment being less effective and the social stigma increased to difficulties to pass as ones desired gender.
Add to that being disowned, abandonded by supposed friends, getting harrased, ignored by the police or for that matter being left to die by the ambulance. Because "everyone" despises transsexuals and are free to discriminate and obstruct them from earning the right to a decent life.

So let's say one transitions in their late thirties or later. Possibilities included being dumped, abandonded by friends and family, losing your job, recieving death threats, being assaulted/raped, police not giving a shit, rumours about being a sexual deviant (usually a pedophile), all the "loving christians"tm telling you that you will burn in hell and that you do not deserve to live.
All stuff I've heard from american transsexuals/transgenders, read in news articles, read on transgender forums. Everything suggest that this is horrifyingly common in the United States. Seeing all this I can understand your viewpoint to be honest, it is in stark contrast to certain native american cultures.
But after reading about all the horrible stuff that keeps happening post-transition, are you really surpised they keep killing themselves? And are you seriously saying that they kill themselves because the treatment is faulty and not because of the toxic enviroment they can't get away from by anything short of migration?

Let's take that very same treatment in a vastly different enviroment. My own country, due to recent (past decade) studies about the mental health of LGBT-people and transpeople in specific a lot more people in the mental healthcare actually try to help and knows where to send them. And due to socialised healthcare, a lot who show up are teenagers or in their twenties. Resulting in most people transitioning in their twenties instead of in the middle-ages, with much better odds of passing etc. Still a lot of us are total wrecks when we first meet the specialists and specifically the doctors tend to be very unproffesional and not caring about either the patient or the standards of care.

Here the treatment works. Yes, we get hardships as well and have our fair share of idiots in our country. But seriously, I've been very open about being transsexual and the only people who have really bothered me about it is a grossly uninformed psychiatrist (never heard about lesbian) and a narcissistic father. The horrible doctors would have treated me the same way regardless of why I met them. Here we have basically the same odds finding jobs, we are protected by discrimination laws, a mass-media that revels in discrimination scandals, a LBGTQ-movement that is very focused on that everyone is welcome, we usually manage to keep at least a friend or two to keep us going until we find new ones, relatives that support us if our families don't. And with both there being research about possibilities of offering similar treatments to non-transsexuals who think it would improve their quality of life (transgenders, gender-queers, inter-genders etc). The is an experimental program that does just that in Stockholm and it gets a lot of praise, not too few of us transsexuals sees it as a possibility to get rid of the horribly outdated practices at certain clinics. Not to say that we finally got rid of that 40-years old mandatory sterilization part. That would have progressed a lot faster if someone who wasn't a christ-democrat (literal translation) was responsible for changing the law.

There has been debate regarding the gender-correcting treatments, and the medical consensus is that they work. Thus getting rid of it or making us pay it ourselves is out of the question. If the state has been paying for our education amongst other things and we just die off, then it has made a terrible investment. Paying for the treatments get the state a back with interest in the form of taxes (Sweden after all) for ideally until retirement.

Here, we have about 700 hundred accepted juridical gender corrections and that number will skyrocket with easier access to healthcare and the ability to choose the path most fitting to our personal needs. Want to know how many cases of regrets we have confirmed? 17, all of the in the seventies and the eighties. That means that we have no know cases of regret for over two decades. On the other hand we have constant success stories about being the way we want and getting the treatment gives us an actual chance at life. I'm one, from a decade of depression, anxiety, paranoia and suicidal behaviour to a life worth living and a body I'm comfortably in as well as being proud of. My transsexual friends have gone through more or less the same process. Most of us leads decent lives after recieving treatments, if nothing else better lives.

There is a lot of statistics going around and I apologise for not looking up a source at the moment (not sure there is one in english concerning about swedish statistics). But the rough figures is that about 3-4 out ten has attempted suicide and 8-9 out of ten have contemplated it for longer periods of times. That is when we show up to the clinics. And as people started to point out recently there is no proper research regarding our mental health after transitioning and the need for "after-care" so to speak. Everyone sees a great improvement and concludes that is enough.

To sum it all up: if a transsexual transitions early in their life and end up killing themselves, as a rule it is because of being in a hostile society. Similar to what happens to gays etc, telling them to stop being gay so "the normal people" would stop hating them doesn't work. The solution is as you said a more open-minded and tolerant society. Honestly a more courteous one would do wonders on it's own.
Stop giving us gender-correcting treatment and you end up wondering why we keep killing ourselves in a tolerant society. That is the thing about transsexuals in the LBGTQ-community, we are the odd one that doesn't really fit in there. We have much to gain from love and tolerance, but it simply isn't enough as we are suffering from what essentially is an intersexual disorder. We need not either healthcare or tolerance, we need both.

You know what? Perhaps in about fifty years, men will be able to go around wearing skirts and getting manicures, and women won't be pressured to shave and will be able to wear checked shirts and stuff. And no-one will give a shit; it'll just be an everyday occurrence. So how about we think optimistically about that? I mean, we legalized interracial marriage. We legalized homosexuality. We introduced the Sex Discrimination Act. People aren't getting killed quite so much nowadays, even if we have more than enough stuff at our disposal to fuck up the planet twice over (e.g. nuclear bombs). So the day will come when people will look back and say, "Wow, there were still people in 2013 who were against gay guys marrying and transsexuals being accepted as their preferred gender? Jeez. Anyway, I think that restaurant on Mars is still open, let's go there."

Way I see it, no one is going to fake being a transexual long enough to get into the girls lavoratory. Let them use the toilet they identify with, for Christ's sake. If girls or boys take issue with it, educate them on the matter. I don;t doubt they can move past such a minor issue.

TheLycanKing144:
People are making too big a deal over this. The kid is a boy, period. He has male sex organs, he needs to go the boys bathroom, period. If later on he decides to get a sex change than maybe, but as of now he needs to use the boys restroom like all the rest. Schools should just keep doing things like they always have, male and female restrooms and don't allow the two to mix.

I know some gay activists will get offended at me for saying that, but please keep in mind I mean no offense. But you have to face the reality and that is he is a boy no matter how much he wants to be a girl. He still has male parts, therefore he goes to the men's restroom.

You seem to be seriously concerned with what others think of you in regard to this issue. One can only wonder why.

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