Yunus and his Turkish mother

Alright, a story is developing recently that is stirring up quite a bit of dust down here in The Netherlands and Turkey. So it started out as follows: The biological mother came to The Netherlands over nine years ago. She gave birth to a son, but Childcare soon found that she was dangerously neglecting the child, so when it was five months old, they took the child and signed it up for adoption. Not long after, a lesbian couple came around, and they gladly wanted to adopt the child. That was nine years ago. Now, the biological mother has found out where, and more importantly to her, with whom child has been placed. She was furious and contacted the Turkish authorities. That is where the media became involved. The Turkish prime minister is visiting The Netherlands next week and rumour has it that he is also rooting fot the biological mother to get her child back.

The reason I bring this up is because I find that I am really pissed off by this. She came on volutary basis to this liberal, progressive country that allows drugs, euthinasia and gay marrige because we believe that people have those rights to express there feelings and carry them out. What I really hate about this case is that it seems like the biological mother, apperently not a very good one at that, is coming here from halfway down the world and proceeds to tell us how to run things down here. If you want to come to this coutry, fine, but you play by this country's rules.

Now, of course we should discuss the fact that she is still the person who gave birth to Yunus, and is still his mother. But from my point of view, Childcare doesn't take a child away from it's birth parents at the first signs of trouble. They would need a very good reason to do something like that. A Turkish commitee has been formed, and they have evaluated the case and say that the procedures are unfair and untransparent. I don't buy that. I have more faith in our Childcare than in their committee, but I could be wrong, I'm not intimately familliar with those procedures. But it is worth remembering the phrase: the value of information is only measured by the reliability of the source.

For arguments sake, let's say significant errors have indeed been made during the process of taking the child away from the mother nine years ago. What are they going to do about that now? Are they seriously considering taking the child away after being raised and loved by his two mothers? It would destroy three lives. What would it do to the child? How would he react to a situation like that, after all this time?

Now, the last item I should adress is the Turkish culture. That tends to believe in the islamic tradition that a child can't be raised properly by gay or lesbian couples, or even straight couple who are christians. This, I am fine with, as long as they don't try to dictate it over here, like I said in the last rule of the second paragraph.

How do you feel about this? About the questions I just posed? And more importantly, about this entire sitiuation? Are we all busy overreacting, or is it really a big deal?

The moment she went to a land, and the law of that land found that she was unfit to be a mother by that lands standards, she lost any right to have any say in the child's upbringing.

Yeah, I'm not particularly in favour of ripping a child out of his family and giving him back to his biological mother who was deemed unfit. Did he even see her at all during that time? Isn't she basically a complete stranger to him? Or did they interact?
Mind, I think she should have visitation rights (assuming she doesn't cause a ruckus), but I don't think she should get him back. Sounds like his new family are responsible parents, whereas her motivation for getting him back seems particularly sketchy.
So, if they deem her and him fit to meet, by all means. But don't take him out of his normal surroundings. And if they deem her and him unfit to meet, don't. When he's 18, he'll have the chance to find out about his biological mother in any case.
As for the last bit? Law of the land. It would be particularly interesting if the boy is a citizen of the Netherlands, by the way.

Skeleon:
As for the last bit? Law of the land. It would be particularly interesting if the boy is a citizen of the Netherlands, by the way.

The boy is a Dutch citizen, of Turkish descent. However the Turkish government claims anyone of Turkish descent is also a Turkish citizen (whether they want to be or not).

A Turkish parliamentary commission is making trouble about any Turkish child fostered in Christian or Gay (or both I assume) families.

How do I feel about this its sad and I really hope that the Dutch government doesn't bend to turkey due to political pressure and does the right thing by this child.

As far as I'm concerned she failed her duty as a mother to properly care for this child and forced the state and this couple to intervene on the child's behalf. She lost the child through her own neglect and incompetence. If the couple that adopted him is taking proper care of him its over, she loses in my book.

I also think its rather disgraceful for someone to move to a different country that they know has vastly different values and beliefs then they do and then try to presume to force what you believe and think on to others. Going as far as to involve the government of the country you left just makes it worse.

R.Nevermore:
The moment she went to a land, and the law of that land found that she was unfit to be a mother by that lands standards, she lost any right to have any say in the child's upbringing.

Legally you are correct, and I imagine the Netherlands is probably making the correct decision. But I don't think we should fall back on "Because the law of the land says so." If the situation were reversed(to Saudi Arabia), would we be so willing to tell the mother "tough shit" when some highly restrictive religious standards were imposed?

Basically, I'm concurring.

Im not all too familiar with this particular case, but i would like to point one thing out.
And it is a big one.
Children are taken "more easily" from parents of different origin than the country itself.

I know this, because back when i lived in Poland, there were many cases of polish families living in Germany, Sweden, and England which were found "unfit" to take care of their children, which then were taken and given to adoption. In many cases no valid reasons were given.

So, im not saying that this is the case this time. But you NEED to realize that there are cases of children being ripped from their families based, basically, on racism.

And at this point, this case is basically "her word vs our word".

neonit:
Im not all too familiar with this particular case, but i would like to point one thing out.
And it is a big one.
Children are taken "more easily" from parents of different origin than the country itself.

I know this, because back when i lived in Poland, there were many cases of polish families living in Germany, Sweden, and England which were found "unfit" to take care of their children, which then were taken and given to adoption. In many cases no valid reasons were given.

So, im not saying that this is the case this time. But you NEED to realize that there are cases of children being ripped from their families based, basically, on racism.

And at this point, this case is basically "her word vs our word".

That's probably true, but wouldn't she (the mother) have made a case for it nine years ago then? instead of now, after she discovered her son is being raised by *gasp* lesbians...

Eleuthera:

neonit:
snip

That's probably true, but wouldn't she (the mother) have made a case for it nine years ago then? instead of now, after she discovered her son is being raised by *gasp* lesbians...

I dont know, hasnt she? Or is it just that this has hit the news BECAUSE of the lesbians bit?

neonit:
Im not all too familiar with this particular case, but i would like to point one thing out.
And it is a big one.
Children are taken "more easily" from parents of different origin than the country itself.

I know this, because back when i lived in Poland, there were many cases of polish families living in Germany, Sweden, and England which were found "unfit" to take care of their children, which then were taken and given to adoption. In many cases no valid reasons were given.

So, im not saying that this is the case this time. But you NEED to realize that there are cases of children being ripped from their families based, basically, on racism.

And at this point, this case is basically "her word vs our word".

Maybe that's the case because of cultural values which lead to different parenting standards. Maybe what is acceptable parenting in a certain country/culture isn't an other.

But more to the case. What really pissed me off about this case is how the Turkish PM basically equated the fact Turkish kids were sometimes sent to gay parents or Christians to cultural assimilation. I mean, what's wrong with mixing people with different cultural backgrounds? Isn't that the best way to be multicultural?

I suspect it's just a political dispute. Neither side can worry too much about what's right, instead of not looking like the foreigns can boss their people around.

If the biological mother was unfit, and if the adoptive mothers are not, then it's clear who is in the right, though.

generals3:

neonit:
Im not all too familiar with this particular case, but i would like to point one thing out.
And it is a big one.
Children are taken "more easily" from parents of different origin than the country itself.

I know this, because back when i lived in Poland, there were many cases of polish families living in Germany, Sweden, and England which were found "unfit" to take care of their children, which then were taken and given to adoption. In many cases no valid reasons were given.

So, im not saying that this is the case this time. But you NEED to realize that there are cases of children being ripped from their families based, basically, on racism.

And at this point, this case is basically "her word vs our word".

Maybe that's the case because of cultural values which lead to different parenting standards. Maybe what is acceptable parenting in a certain country/culture isn't an other.

Ehhh, i wouldnt count on it. In most cases its either illegal in both countries, or not.
Especially when it comes to countries that are on the same continent....

Perhaps she should me more devoted to her child and care for it.
I hate it when mothers abandon their children and remember them only when it is to gain something.

neonit:
Im not all too familiar with this particular case, but i would like to point one thing out.
And it is a big one.
Children are taken "more easily" from parents of different origin than the country itself.

I know this, because back when i lived in Poland, there were many cases of polish families living in Germany, Sweden, and England which were found "unfit" to take care of their children, which then were taken and given to adoption. In many cases no valid reasons were given.

So, im not saying that this is the case this time. But you NEED to realize that there are cases of children being ripped from their families based, basically, on racism.

And at this point, this case is basically "her word vs our word".

[citation needed]. Anecdotal evidence, while not nessicarily false, aren't exactly compelling proof of the kind of systamic racism you're heaping onto Germany, Sweden and the UK.

Given the OP's account childcare took the child because it was being "dangerously" neglected. If they went and used that language they would have a damn good reason backing it up.

Shaoken:

neonit:
Im not all too familiar with this particular case, but i would like to point one thing out.
And it is a big one.
Children are taken "more easily" from parents of different origin than the country itself.

I know this, because back when i lived in Poland, there were many cases of polish families living in Germany, Sweden, and England which were found "unfit" to take care of their children, which then were taken and given to adoption. In many cases no valid reasons were given.

So, im not saying that this is the case this time. But you NEED to realize that there are cases of children being ripped from their families based, basically, on racism.

And at this point, this case is basically "her word vs our word".

[citation needed]. Anecdotal evidence, while not nessicarily false, aren't exactly compelling proof of the kind of systamic racism you're heaping onto Germany, Sweden and the UK.

Given the OP's account childcare took the child because it was being "dangerously" neglected. If they went and used that language they would have a damn good reason backing it up.

No no no, you are missing my point. Im not talking about systematic racism, because indeed - i do not have evidence for it. What i am however talking about is the fact that such things CAN happen, and most probably DO happen.

If you move to another country, you must abide by their rules.

If you are unable, or unwilling, to do so, you should leave.

I think the biological mother as a right to be in the child's life. If she lives in the netherlands still there's no reason (as long as she's seen fit to) that she cant see him on weekends. If she lives in Turkey, its a bit more complicated, but I think she has that right. I would assume my mother would if she was in this situation.

emeraldrafael:
I think the biological mother as a right to be in the child's life. If she lives in the netherlands still there's no reason (as long as she's seen fit to) that she cant see him on weekends. If she lives in Turkey, its a bit more complicated, but I think she has that right. I would assume my mother would if she was in this situation.

What if she beat the shit out of him? Coming from a family where one particular parent condoned and executed abuse I think I'm in my right you have no clue what you're talking about and that people like that don't have any right regarding their children anymore. If your parents beat the shit out of you and the state's response is 'well tough shit junior back you go, enjoy the beatings' how would you respond exactly? Until we know fully what she did saying she's allowed to see him is a bridge too far.

neonit:

No no no, you are missing my point. Im not talking about systematic racism, because indeed - i do not have evidence for it. What i am however talking about is the fact that such things CAN happen, and most probably DO happen.

How is that different from implying systematic racism? As it stands you still think that's how it goes beyond all logic.
Racist country -> takes your foreign child and pays for it's well being and studies even if you couldn't. Those racist bastards.

ItsNotRudy:

emeraldrafael:
I think the biological mother as a right to be in the child's life. If she lives in the netherlands still there's no reason (as long as she's seen fit to) that she cant see him on weekends. If she lives in Turkey, its a bit more complicated, but I think she has that right. I would assume my mother would if she was in this situation.

What if she beat the shit out of him? Coming from a family where one particular parent condoned and executed abuse I think I'm in my right you have no clue what you're talking about and that people like that don't have any right regarding their children anymore. If your parents beat the shit out of you and the state's response is 'well tough shit junior back you go, enjoy the beatings' how would you respond exactly? Until we know fully what she did saying she's allowed to see him is a bridge too far.

...

Read that bolded part again in my original post, something you must have missed. I'm sorry your personal growing up sucked, I really am. BUt you dont know what she did and how she is now. She could be the nicest woman in the world. She could be the biggest cunt ever too, and in that case, if its a dangerment to the child she should not see him. Justifiably so.

I just think, as long as the environment is safe for the child, the mother should be able to see her child or be in some part of his life. No, you dont rip him from his other two mothers, but you could certainly see him on weekends and birthdays. hell she may now even be one of those extremist types and hold that prejudice the OP seemed to worried about against same sex couples.

 

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