Feminist activist gone missing in Tunisia.

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FreedomofInformation:
There is no justification for allowing the rules to be broken regarding the picture because some groups are sympathetic to her ill thought actions.
I'm sure you're all well aware of the censorship and harassment of dissenters in your own countries, perhaps you even support it because it's in your interests so I find this all very hypocritical.

Yeah mate, because when you smash a cop car in Melbourne it is the same thing as wanting to be treated as a human being regardless of what is between your legs. I find your name hypocritical and I find the fact that you just say that her actions are not well thought out as opposed to a cry for help in a nation where she is actually a second rate citizen shows the blatant entitlement endemic in the 'the west is just as bad' lobby.

Okay, now that's just despicable. Well, here's to hoping she's disappeared because she's laying low, and not because she "got disappeared".

On a slightly related note, I believe the EU representatives for some human rights observation thing have been declared persona non grata in Morocco too, if I recall correctly (which is funky, since Morocco actually applied for EU membership twice in the past). But yeah, shit like that thing in OP simply shouldn't be happening.

Problem is not whether or not "we" should intervene and "force" other countries to adopt a more liberal and egalitarian mindset as far as society is concerned, I'm a lot more doubtful about if it's even possible for an outside force to change the fundamental societal norms there.

I mean before the Tunisians themselves, as a society, decide that shit isn't cool, we could intervene to hell and back, but I doubt we'd be truly successful. Don't get me wrong, stern looks and constant reminders to get their shit together are something I support, this can't go ignored. But ultimately that's a paradigm shift they need to achieve on their own, I don't see a way for us to do it for them.

Of course some pressure and exposure to international displeasure could help them change their minds about it faster...but we can't go there and expect they'll magically have learned to behave once we leave, nor can we stay in there forever.

Basically, we can try and nudge them to adopt more humane norms, but we can't make that decision for them, since their own decision is the only one that ultimately matters.

Looks like she said "F their morals!"

But it would appear as though their morals F'ed her! (presumably before murdering her)

Too soon?

FreedomofInformation:
There is no justification for allowing the rules to be broken regarding the picture because some groups are sympathetic to her ill thought actions.
I'm sure you're all well aware of the censorship and harassment of dissenters in your own countries, perhaps you even support it because it's in your interests so I find this all very hypocritical.

I'm sorry but people here don't get abducted because they broke a free speech rule.

As for the military intervention comments: if the west hasn't managed/attempted to assassinate Mugabe - the President of Zimbabwe - for essentially dooming his entire nation to starvation in his mad quest for personal power... they're not going to intervene in Tunisia because some broad was, supposedly, kidnapped.

Essentially, the situation sucks and it's another reason why religion needs to stay as far away from politics as possible.

I find it sad that Tunisia is being violated by Salafist Wahhabiists. I find it sad that people took the whole first page to discuss how we self censor, completely ignoring the fact that a Woman is missing, and probably dead, because of her actions. I find it sad that people are saying we should invade, because that woman is missing, instead of saying "We need to show our support for the Tunisians who are not Salafist Wahhabiists."

Sadness all around! It's a Sadapalooza!

I hope she's okay..

That said, FEMEN has irritated me for some time because, while I agree with a lot of the things they claim to stand for, they're basically a media farm.

I don't really see what the whole naked protest thing is meant to do. It strikes me as the worst kind of pornified third-wave "empowerment" rhetoric which doesn't see any difference between publicizing a cause and luring in TV crews with the promise of tits. You can't make the point that porn and sexual exploitation are "disgusting" by participating in porn and opening yourself up to sexual objectification, pretending that you're "consciousness raising" doesn't change the social implication of your actions.

Sex-positivism in activism works (as it does in Pride, Slutwalk and various other activist movements) when it is also grounded in a mass-movement approach rather than obnoxious media stunts, when the point is that sexuality should not be bold and shocking but should be something normal and everyday, when the emphasis is on promoting acceptance rather than inviting titillation (or violence).

The other reason behind mass-movement protests is that they're usually safer for individual participants than obnoxious stunts which single people out for violence or discrimination.. you know, like this one.

I should clarify that I'm not blaming Amina (I think she's extremely brave, whether that bravery is productive is another matter but there's much to admire in her actions, also, kudos for picking an actual sex-positive issue, rather than the usual FEMEN tactic of just slapping boobs on something unrelated). Heck, I'm not even blaming FEMEN in any direct sense because as far as we know they weren't directly involved. But this whole model of protest is questionable in its effectiveness at best and actively dangerous at worst, and I wish certain organizations could put aside their own self-interested quest for media attention and stop promoting it.

I've still signed all the petitions I can find, of course, and I hope this case gets as much media attention as possible at this point. There's a time to bitch and a time to shut up and take your place in the coalition.. fortunately I can multitask.

madwarper:
I wonder if anyone bothered to do a even do a cursory google search...

http://www.examiner.com/article/tunisia-feminist-activist-threatened-placed-psychiatric-hospital
http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2013/03/tunisian-woman-sent-to-a-psychiatric-hospital-for-posting-topless-photos-on-facebook/274298/

Amina was put into a psychiatric hospital. Not missing. Not killed.

Whats interesting iis that one of the sources the threatening priest implies that epidemics and disasters happen because women have boobs.

Am I reading that right? Or is this guy a time traveler from the bronze age?

Well she better have a good hiding place or plane ticket. If not she's as good as dead.

Ultratwinkie:

madwarper:
I wonder if anyone bothered to do a even do a cursory google search...

http://www.examiner.com/article/tunisia-feminist-activist-threatened-placed-psychiatric-hospital
http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2013/03/tunisian-woman-sent-to-a-psychiatric-hospital-for-posting-topless-photos-on-facebook/274298/

Amina was put into a psychiatric hospital. Not missing. Not killed.

Whats interesting iis that one of the sources the threatening priest implies that epidemics and disasters happen because women have boobs.

Am I reading that right? Or is this guy a time traveler from the bronze age?

You don't remember "boobquake" of a few years ago?

Mind you, you also had people saying that a certain recent tsunami was revenge for the Germans nuking Pearl Harbor some 70 years ago.

thaluikhain:
Mind you, you also had people saying that a certain recent tsunami was revenge for the Germans nuking Pearl Harbor some 70 years ago.

Let's not forget the Pat Robertson greats...
"9/11 happened because of homosexuals" and "Haiti got hit because they made a deal with Satan to free themselves from slavery"! Although at least those two events actually happened, so I guess he's... better?

evilthecat:
I hope she's okay..

That said, FEMEN has irritated me for some time because, while I agree with a lot of the things they claim to stand for, they're basically a media farm.

I don't really see what the whole naked protest thing is meant to do. It strikes me as the worst kind of pornified third-wave "empowerment" rhetoric which doesn't see any difference between publicizing a cause and luring in TV crews with the promise of tits. You can't make the point that porn and sexual exploitation are "disgusting" by participating in porn and opening yourself up to sexual objectification, pretending that you're "consciousness raising" doesn't change the social implication of your actions.

Sex-positivism in activism works (as it does in Pride, Slutwalk and various other activist movements) when it is also grounded in a mass-movement approach rather than obnoxious media stunts, when the point is that sexuality should not be bold and shocking but should be something normal and everyday, when the emphasis is on promoting acceptance rather than inviting titillation (or violence).

The other reason behind mass-movement protests is that they're usually safer for individual participants than obnoxious stunts which single people out for violence or discrimination.. you know, like this one.

I should clarify that I'm not blaming Amina (I think she's extremely brave, whether that bravery is productive is another matter but there's much to admire in her actions, also, kudos for picking an actual sex-positive issue, rather than the usual FEMEN tactic of just slapping boobs on something unrelated). Heck, I'm not even blaming FEMEN in any direct sense because as far as we know they weren't directly involved. But this whole model of protest is questionable in its effectiveness at best and actively dangerous at worst, and I wish certain organizations could put aside their own self-interested quest for media attention and stop promoting it.

I've still signed all the petitions I can find, of course, and I hope this case gets as much media attention as possible at this point. There's a time to bitch and a time to shut up and take your place in the coalition.. fortunately I can multitask.

I am a bit confused by this take on Porn, maybe it is a cultural perspective that I just do not get. For me, I honestly see no problem with sex, nudity, or public affection and am not offended or put off by those who have sex openly. I do not see how this would be against women if the women involved are not being coerced, groomed, forced or manipulated into their actions. Many willing women enjoy sex and enjoy watching porn, and enjoy filming themselves. I come from a maternal society who has never supressed women, and does not have strange hang ups on sex or nudity, so it may also be why this is strange to me. Coming from a maternal society that celebrates sex as a natural, wonderful and beautiful part of life, this is a very strange idea that sex is somehow against women, unless of course the women were forced to do so against their will. Now of course forced sex is a horrific assault, but from those I have known who enjoy filming themselves during sex, they very much enjoy doing so, and it should not be considered against other women for them to do so. There is no shame in our bodies, or our enjoyment of sex, and I find the idea that there should be a bit absurd.

Before the US government placed the church and the mob in control of our lands, we had ceremonies that included open sex in the public forum for everyone to see. This has never been something one should be ashamed of, it is a beautiful and enjoyable part of life that should be celebrated, not obscured and hidden. I do not think that women who openly enjoy and celebrate sex should be bullied into conforming to what someone else believes. That form of bullying is no better than forcing a woman to have sex against her will, or forcing her to wear a burka.

Stavros Dimou:
...
Before writing this thread I've made a small research on FEMEN and they said that they show of their breasts in protests as a means to gather more attention so they can spread their message further. This story would have got my own attention with or without breasts,so I thought that showing the breasts or hiding them would be irrelevant to the point of this thread. I hope fellow readers on the Escapist will find the news story serious enough and pay attention to it,no matter if there is a picture with a girl's breasts on the thread or not.

That might be the case in general.

However, when the message is "fuck your morals" and "it's my body", then the image of her fucking over morals using her body is a rather integral part of the statement, wouldn't you think?

And the censoring of it is pretty much the morals fucking over her right to express her sexuality: Offering little but confirmation that she's disappeared for nothing.

evilthecat:
...You can't make the point that porn and sexual exploitation are "disgusting" by participating in porn and opening yourself up to sexual objectification, pretending that you're "consciousness raising" doesn't change the social implication of your actions.
...

...wait, these people oppose the Freedom of Expression to produce and view porn?

Off to the psych ward indeed, then.

Damn. Another thread is brought off the rails of whatever the hell we were discussing by Imperator_DK and his rants. Can someone, like, issue a cease and desist order on him or something?

Shadowstar38:
Damn. Another thread is brought off the rails of whatever the hell we were discussing by Imperator_DK and his rants.

Feel free to set a more interesting agenda, once you've figured out whatever the hell you were discussing.

How the OP relates to the subject matter seems topical enough to me.

Can someone, like, issue a cease and desist order on him or something?

I could write one out and issue it to myself?

Would a legal fee of $2,500 + VAT be acceptable?

Disclaimer: All responsibility for actual validity, effect, or the making of any sense of the C&D notice, outside of copyrighted material held by Shadowstar38 specifically mentioned in it, is not guaranteed.

evilthecat:
I hope she's okay..

That said, FEMEN has irritated me for some time because, while I agree with a lot of the things they claim to stand for, they're basically a media farm.

I don't really see what the whole naked protest thing is meant to do. It strikes me as the worst kind of pornified third-wave "empowerment" rhetoric which doesn't see any difference between publicizing a cause and luring in TV crews with the promise of tits. You can't make the point that porn and sexual exploitation are "disgusting" by participating in porn and opening yourself up to sexual objectification, pretending that you're "consciousness raising" doesn't change the social implication of your actions.

Sex-positivism in activism works (as it does in Pride, Slutwalk and various other activist movements) when it is also grounded in a mass-movement approach rather than obnoxious media stunts, when the point is that sexuality should not be bold and shocking but should be something normal and everyday, when the emphasis is on promoting acceptance rather than inviting titillation (or violence).

The other reason behind mass-movement protests is that they're usually safer for individual participants than obnoxious stunts which single people out for violence or discrimination.. you know, like this one.

I should clarify that I'm not blaming Amina (I think she's extremely brave, whether that bravery is productive is another matter but there's much to admire in her actions, also, kudos for picking an actual sex-positive issue, rather than the usual FEMEN tactic of just slapping boobs on something unrelated). Heck, I'm not even blaming FEMEN in any direct sense because as far as we know they weren't directly involved. But this whole model of protest is questionable in its effectiveness at best and actively dangerous at worst, and I wish certain organizations could put aside their own self-interested quest for media attention and stop promoting it.

I've still signed all the petitions I can find, of course, and I hope this case gets as much media attention as possible at this point. There's a time to bitch and a time to shut up and take your place in the coalition.. fortunately I can multitask.

What I get from their actions is a desexualization of female breasts.
As in most places of the world it is a taboo or even worse a forbidding law for women to reveal this body parts, seeing them publicly grabs the attention,and that attention isn't necessarily sexual IMO.
Seeing these women doing so just grabbed my attention for being unusual without making me fantasize and feel sexually aroused. So I wouldn't really call what they are doing porn.
I think 'porn' is when 2 or more people are doing stuff that are specifically related to body pleasure,and the point of the media is to evoke sexual feelings and fantasies to watchers.
Call me a cynic,but seeing women with banners and slogans written on their bodies yelling and stuff is something I didn't found arousing.
Personally I think that instead of objectifying themselves as sex objects by showing publicly their breasts,they instead kinda of do the opposite and de-sexualize their bodies removing the force that would otherwise drive male sexual instincts. But of course every person is different and as such I could be the only one,or one in a few number people that think that way.
To tell the truth I'm kinda of a nihilist,demystifying and debunking stuff,so it might be because of that.

Lil devils x:

evilthecat:
I hope she's okay..

That said, FEMEN has irritated me for some time because, while I agree with a lot of the things they claim to stand for, they're basically a media farm.

I don't really see what the whole naked protest thing is meant to do. It strikes me as the worst kind of pornified third-wave "empowerment" rhetoric which doesn't see any difference between publicizing a cause and luring in TV crews with the promise of tits. You can't make the point that porn and sexual exploitation are "disgusting" by participating in porn and opening yourself up to sexual objectification, pretending that you're "consciousness raising" doesn't change the social implication of your actions.

Sex-positivism in activism works (as it does in Pride, Slutwalk and various other activist movements) when it is also grounded in a mass-movement approach rather than obnoxious media stunts, when the point is that sexuality should not be bold and shocking but should be something normal and everyday, when the emphasis is on promoting acceptance rather than inviting titillation (or violence).

The other reason behind mass-movement protests is that they're usually safer for individual participants than obnoxious stunts which single people out for violence or discrimination.. you know, like this one.

I should clarify that I'm not blaming Amina (I think she's extremely brave, whether that bravery is productive is another matter but there's much to admire in her actions, also, kudos for picking an actual sex-positive issue, rather than the usual FEMEN tactic of just slapping boobs on something unrelated). Heck, I'm not even blaming FEMEN in any direct sense because as far as we know they weren't directly involved. But this whole model of protest is questionable in its effectiveness at best and actively dangerous at worst, and I wish certain organizations could put aside their own self-interested quest for media attention and stop promoting it.

I've still signed all the petitions I can find, of course, and I hope this case gets as much media attention as possible at this point. There's a time to bitch and a time to shut up and take your place in the coalition.. fortunately I can multitask.

I am a bit confused by this take on Porn, maybe it is a cultural perspective that I just do not get. For me, I honestly see no problem with sex, nudity, or public affection and am not offended or put off by those who have sex openly. I do not see how this would be against women if the women involved are not being coerced, groomed, forced or manipulated into their actions. Many willing women enjoy sex and enjoy watching porn, and enjoy filming themselves. I come from a maternal society who has never supressed women, and does not have strange hang ups on sex or nudity, so it may also be why this is strange to me. Coming from a maternal society that celebrates sex as a natural, wonderful and beautiful part of life, this is a very strange idea that sex is somehow against women, unless of course the women were forced to do so against their will. Now of course forced sex is a horrific assault, but from those I have known who enjoy filming themselves during sex, they very much enjoy doing so, and it should not be considered against other women for them to do so. There is no shame in our bodies, or our enjoyment of sex, and I find the idea that there should be a bit absurd.

Before the US government placed the church and the mob in control of our lands, we had ceremonies that included open sex in the public forum for everyone to see. This has never been something one should be ashamed of, it is a beautiful and enjoyable part of life that should be celebrated, not obscured and hidden. I do not think that women who openly enjoy and celebrate sex should be bullied into conforming to what someone else believes. That form of bullying is no better than forcing a woman to have sex against her will, or forcing her to wear a burka.

A maternal society you say ? I think it's interesting to learn more about that.
Now I can tolerate men and women walking around topless,I guess it's 'cool',but it really would feel strange/awkward to watch people having sex in all public places. I know lots of people have that kind of fetish and like to do it in public places,but I myself I like privacy and I think it's a good thing in general that going to the local supermarket to buy some grocery I don't see a group of people having an orgy in the park that lies between my home and the supermarket. Anyway I still respect your society and find it interesting enough to learn more about that.
Oh and I don't see porn as something evil or wicked,but as something natural.

madwarper:
I wonder if anyone bothered to do a even do a cursory google search...

http://www.examiner.com/article/tunisia-feminist-activist-threatened-placed-psychiatric-hospital
http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2013/03/tunisian-woman-sent-to-a-psychiatric-hospital-for-posting-topless-photos-on-facebook/274298/

Amina was put into a psychiatric hospital. Not missing. Not killed.

Whilst that's better than being killed, the fact that her relatives went 'Oh she has opinions, must be a loony' and what's more, were able to have her accepted into a psychiatric hospital on such grounds tells you a lot about how their society views women as second class citizens.

ClockworkPenguin:

madwarper:
I wonder if anyone bothered to do a even do a cursory google search...

http://www.examiner.com/article/tunisia-feminist-activist-threatened-placed-psychiatric-hospital
http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2013/03/tunisian-woman-sent-to-a-psychiatric-hospital-for-posting-topless-photos-on-facebook/274298/

Amina was put into a psychiatric hospital. Not missing. Not killed.

Whilst that's better than being killed, the fact that her relatives went 'Oh she has opinions, must be a loony' and what's more, were able to have her accepted into a psychiatric hospital on such grounds tells you a lot about how their society views women as second class citizens.

Alternatively, and forgive me for being an eternal optimist, they put her in their because those places are built like fortresses, she can vanish off the radar for a bit, and then she can be released quietly.

This is a flash in the pan news story and once its died down and the extremist have found someone or something else to be outraged against, they'll hopefully pull her out nice and quiet. That's what I would do in this situation, anyway, if I wasn't willing to let my daughter become a martyr at 19.

Lil devils x:
I am a bit confused by this take on Porn, maybe it is a cultural perspective that I just do not get. For me, I honestly see no problem with sex, nudity, or public affection and am not offended or put off by those who have sex openly.

Me neither. I frequently hang out in places where people do.

Unfortunately, the rest of the world does not work like this. If it did then the tactics they are using would not have any impact, people would shrug and move on. The whole point is to draw media attention using public displays of (exclusively young, thin, attractive) female nudity.

If the point being made here is that sex and nudity is inherently natural and beautiful, where are the overweight people? Where are the people over the age of 40? Where are the people with physical disabilities and otherwise "imperfect" bodies? Where are the bodies which are not "worth a bang", which might inspire revulsion rather than titillation? Oops, well I guess they weren't inherently beautiful and natural enough!

The answer, of course, is that this isn't a sex-positive point at all, it's purely about using attractive female bodies to grab attention. Using, as in exploiting for political and economic gain.

FEMEN - is the new Amazons, capable to undermine the foundations of the patriarchal world by their intellect, sex, agility, make disorder, bring neurosis and panic to the men's world. ... FEMEN - is a hot boobs, (sic) a cool head and clean hands.

Do you see the problem yet?

Stavros Dimou:
What I get from their actions is a desexualization of female breasts.

FEMEN disagrees.

I assure you, I would have no problem if desexualization was in any way a part of it. But it isn't. It really isn't. Just because something isn't actively making you chubbed up doesn't mean its desexualized, it certainly doesn't mean it's meant to be desexualized.

"Porn" can mean several things. Most commonly, it means a particular genre of media which we call porn, which is what I guess you're referring to (although I totally disagree with your definition even if that is the case. Porn does not have to be "hardcore").

However, that genre alone increasingly isn't enough. In an age where anyone can take a picture on a phone camera and publish it to millions of people, you can't rely on conventional genre boundaries. In fact, when you dig into it the genre itself and the artistic conventions associated with it are really just tools to create a particular kind of uncomplicated scopophilic/voyeuristic pleasure. That pleasure, I would argue, is what porn actually is once you strip out the genre conventions.

Why does a protest involving 3 topless young women get more media attention than one involving 3 fat guys? The answer is still the promise of voyeuristic pleasure.

the clockmaker:

FreedomofInformation:
There is no justification for allowing the rules to be broken regarding the picture because some groups are sympathetic to her ill thought actions.
I'm sure you're all well aware of the censorship and harassment of dissenters in your own countries, perhaps you even support it because it's in your interests so I find this all very hypocritical.

Yeah mate, because when you smash a cop car in Melbourne it is the same thing as wanting to be treated as a human being regardless of what is between your legs. I find your name hypocritical and I find the fact that you just say that her actions are not well thought out as opposed to a cry for help in a nation where she is actually a second rate citizen shows the blatant entitlement endemic in the 'the west is just as bad' lobby.

Feel free to post the unedited picture and see where it gets you, the irony is that plenty of people supporting this women would be quite happy to have other people silenced.

generals3:

I'm sorry but people here don't get abducted because they broke a free speech rule.

Actually they do, whether it's put in prison or abuse of mental health laws.

FreedomofInformation:

generals3:

I'm sorry but people here don't get abducted because they broke a free speech rule.

Actually they do, whether it's put in prison or abuse of mental health laws.

Just no. There is a big difference between abduction and being put in a prison after a trial or mental institution after a diagnosis from a panel of psychiatrists. The main difference being that the person doesn't disappear and as a consequence can be checked up and even go into appeal.

And secondly we only put people in mental institutions when they're deemed a danger to other people's lives. Not for expressing a controversial opinion. And while imprisonment can be given upon speech infringements it is only carried out if the person incited hatred or violence. The point being that such speech can form a danger to some people's lives.

FreedomofInformation:

Feel free to post the unedited picture and see where it gets you,

Probably suspended. I am aware of what the rules of the site are, I am politely disagreeing with them. The escapist does not have a monopoly on morality. We can do that you know, disagree with the rules while still following them because this is their site and their rules.

the irony is that plenty of people supporting this women would be quite happy to have other people silenced.

No mate, the Irony is that the only person in this thread happy that someone has been silenced is the fairly well know 'individual freedom supporting' poster named freedom of information , but hey lets look at why your post is daft
1-You are railing against a non-specific other while being an offender yourself, as such the only real offender is you
2-The differences in treatment between those 'silenced' in the west (told to leave and then granted media tours/they go back to their blog/the media comes to them for an interview) and the woman in the question at the time the thread was posted (gone, no word as to where, I think that has changed in the interim but the moral stands)
3-The difference in the nature of the demands. Occupy- Change the system to accommodate us. Her- Leave me be and let me live as I wish. One is a intrusive demand, the other merely a demand that the intrusions stop.
4-The nature of the phrasing most often used in the west 'I wish they would shut up' 'they should just fuck off' 'god I'm sick of their whining entitled bullshit'. These all indicate a voluntary fucking off, markedly different than the threats against life or limb levelled at protesters outside of the west.

Honestly, if your first instinct when reading about someone actually silenced overseas is to complain about the situation in the west, you clearly don't have a very good understanding of the west or the nations outside of it.

Stavros Dimou:

evilthecat:
I hope she's okay..

That said, FEMEN has irritated me for some time because, while I agree with a lot of the things they claim to stand for, they're basically a media farm.

I don't really see what the whole naked protest thing is meant to do. It strikes me as the worst kind of pornified third-wave "empowerment" rhetoric which doesn't see any difference between publicizing a cause and luring in TV crews with the promise of tits. You can't make the point that porn and sexual exploitation are "disgusting" by participating in porn and opening yourself up to sexual objectification, pretending that you're "consciousness raising" doesn't change the social implication of your actions.

Sex-positivism in activism works (as it does in Pride, Slutwalk and various other activist movements) when it is also grounded in a mass-movement approach rather than obnoxious media stunts, when the point is that sexuality should not be bold and shocking but should be something normal and everyday, when the emphasis is on promoting acceptance rather than inviting titillation (or violence).

The other reason behind mass-movement protests is that they're usually safer for individual participants than obnoxious stunts which single people out for violence or discrimination.. you know, like this one.

I should clarify that I'm not blaming Amina (I think she's extremely brave, whether that bravery is productive is another matter but there's much to admire in her actions, also, kudos for picking an actual sex-positive issue, rather than the usual FEMEN tactic of just slapping boobs on something unrelated). Heck, I'm not even blaming FEMEN in any direct sense because as far as we know they weren't directly involved. But this whole model of protest is questionable in its effectiveness at best and actively dangerous at worst, and I wish certain organizations could put aside their own self-interested quest for media attention and stop promoting it.

I've still signed all the petitions I can find, of course, and I hope this case gets as much media attention as possible at this point. There's a time to bitch and a time to shut up and take your place in the coalition.. fortunately I can multitask.

What I get from their actions is a desexualization of female breasts.
As in most places of the world it is a taboo or even worse a forbidding law for women to reveal this body parts, seeing them publicly grabs the attention,and that attention isn't necessarily sexual IMO.
Seeing these women doing so just grabbed my attention for being unusual without making me fantasize and feel sexually aroused. So I wouldn't really call what they are doing porn.
I think 'porn' is when 2 or more people are doing stuff that are specifically related to body pleasure,and the point of the media is to evoke sexual feelings and fantasies to watchers.
Call me a cynic,but seeing women with banners and slogans written on their bodies yelling and stuff is something I didn't found arousing.
Personally I think that instead of objectifying themselves as sex objects by showing publicly their breasts,they instead kinda of do the opposite and de-sexualize their bodies removing the force that would otherwise drive male sexual instincts. But of course every person is different and as such I could be the only one,or one in a few number people that think that way.
To tell the truth I'm kinda of a nihilist,demystifying and debunking stuff,so it might be because of that.

Lil devils x:

evilthecat:
I hope she's okay..

That said, FEMEN has irritated me for some time because, while I agree with a lot of the things they claim to stand for, they're basically a media farm.

I don't really see what the whole naked protest thing is meant to do. It strikes me as the worst kind of pornified third-wave "empowerment" rhetoric which doesn't see any difference between publicizing a cause and luring in TV crews with the promise of tits. You can't make the point that porn and sexual exploitation are "disgusting" by participating in porn and opening yourself up to sexual objectification, pretending that you're "consciousness raising" doesn't change the social implication of your actions.

Sex-positivism in activism works (as it does in Pride, Slutwalk and various other activist movements) when it is also grounded in a mass-movement approach rather than obnoxious media stunts, when the point is that sexuality should not be bold and shocking but should be something normal and everyday, when the emphasis is on promoting acceptance rather than inviting titillation (or violence).

The other reason behind mass-movement protests is that they're usually safer for individual participants than obnoxious stunts which single people out for violence or discrimination.. you know, like this one.

I should clarify that I'm not blaming Amina (I think she's extremely brave, whether that bravery is productive is another matter but there's much to admire in her actions, also, kudos for picking an actual sex-positive issue, rather than the usual FEMEN tactic of just slapping boobs on something unrelated). Heck, I'm not even blaming FEMEN in any direct sense because as far as we know they weren't directly involved. But this whole model of protest is questionable in its effectiveness at best and actively dangerous at worst, and I wish certain organizations could put aside their own self-interested quest for media attention and stop promoting it.

I've still signed all the petitions I can find, of course, and I hope this case gets as much media attention as possible at this point. There's a time to bitch and a time to shut up and take your place in the coalition.. fortunately I can multitask.

I am a bit confused by this take on Porn, maybe it is a cultural perspective that I just do not get. For me, I honestly see no problem with sex, nudity, or public affection and am not offended or put off by those who have sex openly. I do not see how this would be against women if the women involved are not being coerced, groomed, forced or manipulated into their actions. Many willing women enjoy sex and enjoy watching porn, and enjoy filming themselves. I come from a maternal society who has never supressed women, and does not have strange hang ups on sex or nudity, so it may also be why this is strange to me. Coming from a maternal society that celebrates sex as a natural, wonderful and beautiful part of life, this is a very strange idea that sex is somehow against women, unless of course the women were forced to do so against their will. Now of course forced sex is a horrific assault, but from those I have known who enjoy filming themselves during sex, they very much enjoy doing so, and it should not be considered against other women for them to do so. There is no shame in our bodies, or our enjoyment of sex, and I find the idea that there should be a bit absurd.

Before the US government placed the church and the mob in control of our lands, we had ceremonies that included open sex in the public forum for everyone to see. This has never been something one should be ashamed of, it is a beautiful and enjoyable part of life that should be celebrated, not obscured and hidden. I do not think that women who openly enjoy and celebrate sex should be bullied into conforming to what someone else believes. That form of bullying is no better than forcing a woman to have sex against her will, or forcing her to wear a burka.

A maternal society you say ? I think it's interesting to learn more about that.
Now I can tolerate men and women walking around topless,I guess it's 'cool',but it really would feel strange/awkward to watch people having sex in all public places. I know lots of people have that kind of fetish and like to do it in public places,but I myself I like privacy and I think it's a good thing in general that going to the local supermarket to buy some grocery I don't see a group of people having an orgy in the park that lies between my home and the supermarket. Anyway I still respect your society and find it interesting enough to learn more about that.
Oh and I don't see porn as something evil or wicked,but as something natural.

Yes,a maternal society, I am Hopi. When a man joins with a woman, the man becomes a member of the womans family and takes the womans clan's name. Women traditionally are the ones in charge of the economy and business, and own the property.

evilthecat:

Lil devils x:
I am a bit confused by this take on Porn, maybe it is a cultural perspective that I just do not get. For me, I honestly see no problem with sex, nudity, or public affection and am not offended or put off by those who have sex openly.

Me neither. I frequently hang out in places where people do.

Unfortunately, the rest of the world does not work like this. If it did then the tactics they are using would not have any impact, people would shrug and move on. The whole point is to draw media attention using public displays of (exclusively young, thin, attractive) female nudity.

If the point being made here is that sex and nudity is inherently natural and beautiful, where are the overweight people? Where are the people over the age of 40? Where are the people with physical disabilities and otherwise "imperfect" bodies? Where are the bodies which are not "worth a bang", which might inspire revulsion rather than titillation? Oops, well I guess they weren't inherently beautiful and natural enough!

The answer, of course, is that this isn't a sex-positive point at all, it's purely about using attractive female bodies to grab attention. Using, as in exploiting for political and economic gain.

FEMEN - is the new Amazons, capable to undermine the foundations of the patriarchal world by their intellect, sex, agility, make disorder, bring neurosis and panic to the men's world. ... FEMEN - is a hot boobs, (sic) a cool head and clean hands.

Do you see the problem yet?

Stavros Dimou:
What I get from their actions is a desexualization of female breasts.

FEMEN disagrees.

I assure you, I would have no problem if desexualization was in any way a part of it. But it isn't. It really isn't. Just because something isn't actively making you chubbed up doesn't mean its desexualized, it certainly doesn't mean it's meant to be desexualized.

"Porn" can mean several things. Most commonly, it means a particular genre of media which we call porn, which is what I guess you're referring to (although I totally disagree with your definition even if that is the case. Porn does not have to be "hardcore").

However, that genre alone increasingly isn't enough. In an age where anyone can take a picture on a phone camera and publish it to millions of people, you can't rely on conventional genre boundaries. In fact, when you dig into it the genre itself and the artistic conventions associated with it are really just tools to create a particular kind of uncomplicated scopophilic/voyeuristic pleasure. That pleasure, I would argue, is what porn actually is once you strip out the genre conventions.

Why does a protest involving 3 topless young women get more media attention than one involving 3 fat guys? The answer is still the promise of voyeuristic pleasure.

What of the fat people? They were not excluded, and yes, from my culture it is not looked upon in the same way it is on yours. There was not an adverse reaction to fat people enjoying sex no more so than anyone else. That is also a cultural difference as well. The reaction to others having sex is more like an " awww.. That is so beautiful!" rather than the reaction you get in this society. I guess since it was never considered " shameful" it was seen more as commonplace and the ideas of what is and not beautiful vary greatly from culture to culture. In my culture, I am not considered very attractive and am too skinny, In American culture, I was a model and considered very attractive. It is funny how people are so different. Where I come from, being petite was not a good thing, more of an " ugly duckling", but in other cultures what one considers less attractive is considered "stunning".

I hope nothing bad happened to her.

Friendly Lich:
I hope nothing bad happened to her.

From my understanding her family put her in a mental health hospital to prevent her from being harmed. I just hope they can continue to keep her from being harmed, it appears that they didn't have many options here.

Lil devils x:

Stavros Dimou:

evilthecat:
I hope she's okay..

That said, FEMEN has irritated me for some time because, while I agree with a lot of the things they claim to stand for, they're basically a media farm.

I don't really see what the whole naked protest thing is meant to do. It strikes me as the worst kind of pornified third-wave "empowerment" rhetoric which doesn't see any difference between publicizing a cause and luring in TV crews with the promise of tits. You can't make the point that porn and sexual exploitation are "disgusting" by participating in porn and opening yourself up to sexual objectification, pretending that you're "consciousness raising" doesn't change the social implication of your actions.

Sex-positivism in activism works (as it does in Pride, Slutwalk and various other activist movements) when it is also grounded in a mass-movement approach rather than obnoxious media stunts, when the point is that sexuality should not be bold and shocking but should be something normal and everyday, when the emphasis is on promoting acceptance rather than inviting titillation (or violence).

The other reason behind mass-movement protests is that they're usually safer for individual participants than obnoxious stunts which single people out for violence or discrimination.. you know, like this one.

I should clarify that I'm not blaming Amina (I think she's extremely brave, whether that bravery is productive is another matter but there's much to admire in her actions, also, kudos for picking an actual sex-positive issue, rather than the usual FEMEN tactic of just slapping boobs on something unrelated). Heck, I'm not even blaming FEMEN in any direct sense because as far as we know they weren't directly involved. But this whole model of protest is questionable in its effectiveness at best and actively dangerous at worst, and I wish certain organizations could put aside their own self-interested quest for media attention and stop promoting it.

I've still signed all the petitions I can find, of course, and I hope this case gets as much media attention as possible at this point. There's a time to bitch and a time to shut up and take your place in the coalition.. fortunately I can multitask.

What I get from their actions is a desexualization of female breasts.
As in most places of the world it is a taboo or even worse a forbidding law for women to reveal this body parts, seeing them publicly grabs the attention,and that attention isn't necessarily sexual IMO.
Seeing these women doing so just grabbed my attention for being unusual without making me fantasize and feel sexually aroused. So I wouldn't really call what they are doing porn.
I think 'porn' is when 2 or more people are doing stuff that are specifically related to body pleasure,and the point of the media is to evoke sexual feelings and fantasies to watchers.
Call me a cynic,but seeing women with banners and slogans written on their bodies yelling and stuff is something I didn't found arousing.
Personally I think that instead of objectifying themselves as sex objects by showing publicly their breasts,they instead kinda of do the opposite and de-sexualize their bodies removing the force that would otherwise drive male sexual instincts. But of course every person is different and as such I could be the only one,or one in a few number people that think that way.
To tell the truth I'm kinda of a nihilist,demystifying and debunking stuff,so it might be because of that.

Lil devils x:

I am a bit confused by this take on Porn, maybe it is a cultural perspective that I just do not get. For me, I honestly see no problem with sex, nudity, or public affection and am not offended or put off by those who have sex openly. I do not see how this would be against women if the women involved are not being coerced, groomed, forced or manipulated into their actions. Many willing women enjoy sex and enjoy watching porn, and enjoy filming themselves. I come from a maternal society who has never supressed women, and does not have strange hang ups on sex or nudity, so it may also be why this is strange to me. Coming from a maternal society that celebrates sex as a natural, wonderful and beautiful part of life, this is a very strange idea that sex is somehow against women, unless of course the women were forced to do so against their will. Now of course forced sex is a horrific assault, but from those I have known who enjoy filming themselves during sex, they very much enjoy doing so, and it should not be considered against other women for them to do so. There is no shame in our bodies, or our enjoyment of sex, and I find the idea that there should be a bit absurd.

Before the US government placed the church and the mob in control of our lands, we had ceremonies that included open sex in the public forum for everyone to see. This has never been something one should be ashamed of, it is a beautiful and enjoyable part of life that should be celebrated, not obscured and hidden. I do not think that women who openly enjoy and celebrate sex should be bullied into conforming to what someone else believes. That form of bullying is no better than forcing a woman to have sex against her will, or forcing her to wear a burka.

A maternal society you say ? I think it's interesting to learn more about that.
Now I can tolerate men and women walking around topless,I guess it's 'cool',but it really would feel strange/awkward to watch people having sex in all public places. I know lots of people have that kind of fetish and like to do it in public places,but I myself I like privacy and I think it's a good thing in general that going to the local supermarket to buy some grocery I don't see a group of people having an orgy in the park that lies between my home and the supermarket. Anyway I still respect your society and find it interesting enough to learn more about that.
Oh and I don't see porn as something evil or wicked,but as something natural.

Yes,a maternal society, I am Hopi. When a man joins with a woman, the man becomes a member of the womans family and takes the womans clan's name. Women traditionally are the ones in charge of the economy and business, and own the property.

Some fellow people of mine might disagree and find it weird,but I think the society you are describing is more progressive/liberal than ours. What I like is that you seem to see things just as they are. In a more pragmatist/realistic fashion. My society is more attached to artificial and engineered things and ideas than the natural and simple (existing and being as they are by nature) things. I think it's logic and reasonable thinking to think that "that's how we are,that's what our nature is,thus we should feel OK with our nature and being natural" The taboos regarding nudity and sex that most of the "western civilization" seem to have,originate and got spread by the Abraamic religions,namely Christianity,Judaism and Islam. In my place too,before the spread of Christianity people casually walked and lived without having to hide their bodies feeling shame for them.

And of course the most weird part is that according to the Holy Book and canon these 3 religions share,in the begginning the first humans Adam and Eve didn't hide their bodies,but it is said that they got this taboo and shame because they ate the forbidden fruit. My understanding is that the fact that they started to feel shame for their bodies was a side effect of eating the fruit,a result of the sin. But if God's intention was for humans to not feel bad for their bodies,and doing so is humans defying God,then how did these religions ended up condemning nudity ? If anything,humans should be proud for their bodies since God created them in His Image and humans are replicates of the Image of God.It seems to me the teachings of this religion over the time got distorted.

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