Nigel Farage gets hounded off the steets of Edinburgh

 Pages 1 2 NEXT
 

so Nigel Farage leader of "we're more tory than the torys and deliberately want to leave the EU" UKIP decided to come to Scotland...a country where potentially not being in the EU is used a major bogeyman within the independence debate by unionists because the majority of Scottish citizens are in favour of EU membership.

i might also add that its UKIP party policy to massively neuter the power of the Scottish Parliament...

then this happened:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2013/may/16/nigel-farage-edinburgh-protesters-van
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/video/2013/may/17/ukip-nigel-farage-protesters-edinburgh-video

Mr Farange later called the protesters "fascist scum" who were filled with "total and utter hatred" of the English and as asked for an official apology from the Scottish First Minister while his supporters have taken to condemning suppression of "freedom of speech" and calling the crowd "SNP brownshirts" and the like.

the protest was actually largely the Edinburgh University Students' Association's Socialist Society (and included English members in attendance) and members of the general public of Edinburgh who joined in (including a woman in a wheelchair).

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2013/may/17/nigel-farage-fascist-scum-protesters

i should point out that there was absolutely no violence or threats made by the demonstrators and the most anti English sentiment expressed was basically "go back to England" however this hasn't stopped Farange, UKIP supporters and the right wing English based press running with the idea...

for my own part i will say this: UKIP basically has no place in Scottish politics and the fact that he doesn't apparently understand that (or the political zeitgeist in Scotland) belittles the man and i'm somewhat perplexed by the idea being put forward by UKIP supporters that apparently "freedom of speech" only applies to a guy in a suit with a rosette pinned to it...

at least the torys know they are hated...and prepare to take it on the chin and be contrite and/or try and give as good as they get (IDSs infamous trip to Easterhouse for example) where as Farange seems to have mistakenly though the comfortable "man of the people" image he enjoys in England plays equally well everywhere else...

and its not like we haven't been known to do similar things to our own politicians...Iain Gray (the then leader of the Labour party in Scotland) hid in a Subway in grand central station after being confronted by protesters during the Scottish Parliament general election campaign in 2011 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-12998918 ...and IDSs (now Secretary of State for Work and Pensions for the sitting tory government) was heckled at length only just a few months ago http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-21953895

anyway my last word goes to one of the protesters: "you know as much about Scotland as you do about flying planes"...

Hopefully this will be the moment he overplayed his hand and people start to see him for the c--t he and his party is...

Sleekit:

for my own part i will say this: UKIP basically has no place in Scottish politics and the fact that he doesn't apparently understand that (or the political zeitgeist in Scotland) belittles the man and i'm somewhat perplexed by the idea that apparently "freedom of speech" only applies to a guy in a suit with a rosette pinned to it...

Well, according to some polls UKIP has something like 1-2% of a place in Scotland (down from a Euro election peak around 5%). Unpopular people need to put up with small crowds hurling abuse. They get to complain when their critics interfere criminally.

Sleekit:
so Nigel Farage leader of "we're more tory than the torys and deliberately want to leave the EU" UKIP decided to come to Scotland...a country where potentially not being in the EU is used a major bogeyman within the independence debate by unionists because the majority of Scottish citizens are in favour of EU membership.

Well he has a point about the EU and Scotland. What is the point of fighting to leave the British Union only to apply for membership of another Union which in the next couple of decades will fully federalise and leave your parliament with less power than it has now. It baffles me, but I guess it must be for the money that the rest of us are going to have to send to you if your application is successful. I would move to Scotland in an instant if they don't join the EU.

Sleekit:

Mr Farange later called the protesters "fascist scum" who were filled with "total and utter hatred" of the English and as asked for an official apology from the Scottish First Minister while his supporters have taken to condemning suppression of "freedom of speech" and calling the crowd "SNP brownshirts" and the like.

the protest was actually largely the Edinburgh University Students' Association's socialist society (including English members) and members of the general public of Edinburgh who joined in.

I find these kind of socialist groups to be rather disgusting in the way they conduct these intimidation campaigns. I might not agree with the politics of people like Nick Griffin, but I find these idiots in groups like this and antifa who deny them the right to free speech even worse and hilariously ironic. Instead of conducting politics and presenting their views in a civilised manner they instead decide to use intimidation and bullying to what I can only guess was a stunt to get UKIP even more news time.

Sleekit:

my last word goes to one of the protesters: "you know as much about Scotland as you do about flying planes"...

I am sure there are lots of things he doesn't know much about, so that is a rather odd quote considering he wasn't the one flying the plane when it crashed.

Ironside:

Sleekit:

my last word goes to one of the protesters: "you know as much about Scotland as you do about flying planes"...

I am sure there are lots of things he doesn't know much about, so that is a rather odd quote considering he wasn't the one flying the plane when it crashed.

its still funny.

Ironside:

Sleekit:
so Nigel Farage leader of "we're more tory than the torys and deliberately want to leave the EU" UKIP decided to come to Scotland...a country where potentially not being in the EU is used a major bogeyman within the independence debate by unionists because the majority of Scottish citizens are in favour of EU membership.

Well he has a point about the EU and Scotland. What is the point of fighting to leave the British Union only to apply for membership of another Union which in the next couple of decades will fully federalise and leave your parliament with less power than it has now. It baffles me, but I guess it must be for the money that the rest of us are going to have to send to you if your application is successful. I would move to Scotland in an instant if they don't join the EU.

i don't agree with the assertion the whole EU will federalise any time soon but even if it did why does federalization mean "less power" to a dramatic degree ? have you never heard of "states rights" ?

federalism is the system espoused by the country people on the modern political right in the UK worship the most ie the USA and yet somehow the word is batted around as a pariah. i have never understood this and imo its almost certainly born out of ignorance about what federalism actually is and how it works. its become a word certain people spit with venom even when they don't really know what it is beyond some vague notion that involves a loss of freedom or sovereignty...whatever that is...

if the UK was federal in nature (which btw makes complete sense for the 4-5 nations that share these islands) the Scottish independence movement probably wouldn't exist.

but it isn't...

as for Europe in general the situation is quite complicated but basically it comes down to this: we don't generally don't mind Europe (although most agree it needs reform) and we are (and have largely always though of ourselves as "full") Europeans.

and if you want to talk "democratic accountability" its hardly a feather in mr farange cap that his party wants to strip the Scottish Parliament of all its powers over health, education and public services and recentralise those at Westminster to end all those "omfg Scotland does something different to us!" stories in the likes of the daily mail and the express (and before anyone brings it up we don't get anything "free" we just spend our money on our own different priorities...which is kind of the whole point of devolution).

the reinstatement of the Scottish Parliament was "the settled will of the Scottish people" and you can rest assured that we simply will not stand for a reversal of that led by a bunch of English uber torys under any circumstances.

I don't support UKIP. I will NEVER vote for them. I have no sympathy for them. I find their policies abhorrent. However those protesters were not acting in anything resembling a dignified manner. Protesting someone does not mean crowding round them within a one foot radius, impeding their ability to even walk down a street. That goes into harassment territory.

Images:
I don't support UKIP. I will NEVER vote for them. I have no sympathy for them. I find their policies abhorrent. However those protesters were not acting in anything resembling a dignified manner. Protesting someone does not mean crowding round them within a one foot radius, impeding their ability to even walk down a street. That goes into harassment territory.

it's a highly edited video.

i am still looking for the full one.

the singing (which you don't see) is a particularly hilarious containing choruses of "nigel is a bawbag, nigel is a bawbag...nigel is a baaaaaaw bag" and other such witticisms to the tune of classic football chants.

a one foot radius ?
he chose to go political walkabout in a country that hates virtually everything he stands for with a burning passion.
if it had been Glasgow (and you can be damn sure it very deliberately wasn't) he may very well have ended up in casualty.

they did actually debate policy inside the pub (this is nigels standard photo op).

it was going relatively fine until nigel tried to tell the "white Protestant" audience they were a persecuted minority and the whole pub burst out laughing at him and he was asked to leave...

from what i've heard (ahem) the students where generally behaving themselves as befits such a situation until this happened and then they and the pubs occupants basically just became the "nigel is a bawbag" choir.

anyway point is that which you see but a small snippet of was a situation that developed over time and not the whole of the event.

even the guardian carries out some weird reporting when it comes to Scotland's politics.

some new info

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2013/may/17/nigel-farage-alex-salmond-clash-protesters

Asked about Farage ending the radio interview, Salmond told the BBC: "We are dealing with someone who actually says on radio that the BBC are part of a hate campaign against him. Now it would be a great mistake to take somebody with that mentality with any degree of seriousness."

Salmond added: "Yes we will have a political debate and discourse in a proper way in Scotland. We can frankly do without Ukip, who dislike everybody and know absolutely nothing about Scotland."

When asked if he condemned the demonstration against Farage, the first minister said: "If there's been any law-breaking - and that's yet to be established - then obviously we condemn that, as we always do in Scotland, but you've got to get things into context.

"A student demonstration isn't the Dreyfus trial."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trial_and_conviction_of_Alfred_Dreyfus

also an opinion piece

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/may/17/nigel-farage-ukip-scotland-press

It's the same old fascist,politically correct yobbos trying to silence anything they don't like and make Farage look good in the process.

FreedomofInformation:
It's the same old fascist,politically correct yobbos trying to silence anything they don't like and make Farage look good in the process.

ye we should totally reduce all involvement with politics to clicking boxes on facebook right ?

protest are protests and demonstrations are demonstrations.
they're not supposed to be friendly.

you talk of potential correctness in disparaging terms but at the same time assert all political discourse should be free from any assertion of anger.

SCOTTISH ****S, OFF OUR STREETS. SCOTTISH ****S, OFF OUR STREETS. SCOTTISH ****S, OFF OUR STREETS.

What, I'm just expressing my right to free speech? And it's hilarious when directed at politicians?

Stay classy, Scotland.

Batou667:
SCOTTISH ****S, OFF OUR STREETS. SCOTTISH ****S, OFF OUR STREETS. SCOTTISH ****S, OFF OUR STREETS.

such a sentiment is par the course in the comments sections of the English tabloids atm and has been for a very long time.

Batou667:
Stay classy, Scotland.

indubitably

some more video footage from inside the pub that shows the transition and where he lost what little respect the wider audience had afforded him up until then (including the landlord).

don't ever walk into a random Scottish pub and just start espousing shit for public consumption...seriously just...don't...

I'd be very surprised if his claims of anti-English hatred were anything more than the standard baawww-ing people like Farage come out with whenever they don't get their way. It's par for the course for tossbags on the semi-far right to characterise the Scottish (and to a lesser extent Welsh) Independence movement as Anglophobia. It lets them rile up their racist voters with the tried and tested, "We're the victims here," bullshit that gets pulled out for things like gay rights or freedom of and from religion all the time. How he expected anything more than a frosty reception at best in a country with just one Tory MP, and where both major parties are left-wing and pro-EU is beyond me, especially in a city. He's an ignorant fuckbrain with delusions of grandeur. The idea that the protesters were fascists and not, I don't know, fucking protesters is retarded, but so is Farage and UKIP in general, so that's hardly surprising.

Rather ironic that a man who's proud of a union Scotland was essentially forced into for economic reasons is condemning a group that, as far as I can tell, Great Britain voluntarily joined as "fascism".

Granted, I'm both ethnically Anglo and Celtic (of the Scottish and Welsh variety)so I don't really swing one way or the other on the whole Scotland being part of the UK debate.

Everything's labelled fascism when dealing with student yobbos so you can hardly complain if Farage does likewise.

I have to admit i found it very satisfying seeing Nigel Farage getting shouted down by those protesters. The odious twat deserves being taken down a peg or two.

There isn't really anything British about UKIP, it's essentially the very worst of right wing English populism, which just doesn't run in Scotland. Nigel Farage embodies everything that's wrong about the popular right in England, no wonder the Scot's want out of the UK.

"Fascist" really seems to be one of the most overused words in the English dictionary that just gets tossed out like free sweets by people who don't have a clue what they're talking about. And I really do find it ironic that Nigel "Get out Johnny Foreigner" Farage, of all people, is calling these guys "fascists".

Relish in Chaos:
"Fascist" really seems to be one of the most overused words in the English dictionary that just gets tossed out like free sweets by people who don't have a clue what they're talking about. And I really do find it ironic that Nigel "Get out Johnny Foreigner" Farage, of all people, is calling these guys "fascists".

no you dont understand, hes a white Anglo Saxonm therefor its somehow impossible for him to be facist unless you disagree with him

As an Australian, I do have to say that I have loved the following dichotomy, which is on full display here
'Scottish national populism, yay, don't you dare say the wrong thing in a Scottish pub'
'English populism boooooo, they should shut up'

the clockmaker:
As an Australian, I do have to say that I have loved the following dichotomy, which is on full display here
'Scottish national populism, yay, don't you dare say the wrong thing in a Scottish pub'
'English populism boooooo, they should shut up'

And situation reversed in an English pub, I suppose. I think it's a location thing. I mean, I can hound you out of my house for any reason. It's my house, you being there isn't your right, it's a privilege I grant or revoke at my own discretion. Conversely, you can do the same with me in your house.

So, if you're an outsider in a location and hold principles in opposition to the general mood of the population of that location, the amount of shit and the size of the fan go up exponentially with how big of a player on the board you are.

Oh and I don't think either side is right on this one, because they're both just saying the other should just shut up and doesn't deserve to be listened to. Hell, some of us were more mature than that when we were 6 and playing in a sandbox.

Also, "freedom of speech" doesn't apply here, it was not the doing of the Scottish government.

DJjaffacake:
How he expected anything more than a frosty reception at best in a country with just one Tory MP, and where both major parties are left-wing and pro-EU is beyond me, especially in a city. He's an ignorant fuckbrain with delusions of grandeur. The idea that the protesters were fascists and not, I don't know, fucking protesters is retarded, but so is Farage and UKIP in general, so that's hardly surprising.

he seems to have had a very weird prepping to the extent that it seems he thought mentioning "oppressed white protestants" would play well right bang in the middle of cosmopolitan Edinburgh.

well sorry nigel but we aren't actually all socially deprived rangers supporting "tattooed fuck-wits" and/or members of the orange lodge (an organisation which nowadays in Scotland only has a few thousand members) and those that aren't (ie the majority of Scots) loath that sort of bigoted bullshit not least because "it gives us all a bad name"...which you apparently believe.

i honestly think (by the way he trys to pull things back with that "white protestants are an oppressed minority" line) he's been told most Scots are like some downtrodden sectarian fuelled schemey from a Glasgow housing estate, either that or he's been looking at the history books and fantasising about the old orange lodge tory block vote.

either way its a highly misplaced view of Scottish society and certainly not an angle any legitimate politician should be playing in Scotland.

i mean if he thinks the line "white protestants are an oppressed minority" is vote/crowd winning line the kind of people he's after are the worst bigots we have...and we do have them...but they are a small and geographically contained phenomena largely centred around people who follow the exploits of one particular inner city football team...and he was in the wrong city.

Vegosiux:

the clockmaker:
As an Australian, I do have to say that I have loved the following dichotomy, which is on full display here
'Scottish national populism, yay, don't you dare say the wrong thing in a Scottish pub'
'English populism boooooo, they should shut up'

And situation reversed in an English pub, I suppose. I think it's a location thing. I mean, I can hound you out of my house for any reason. It's my house, you being there isn't your right, it's a privilege I grant or revoke at my own discretion. Conversely, you can do the same with me in your house.

See the thing is, to me, and, not insignificantly, to UK law, it is the same goddamn house. A tiny, tiny four bedroom place with a bunch of passive aggressive tenants who simply cannot get along despite having lived in the house together somewhat peacefully for several hundred years. (except for the Irish, but that is a whole other can of worms). However, my point was less about location and more about the fact that whenever English populism emerges it is scorned and hated, whereas Scottish populism is lauded.

Consider, had a politician that sleekit admired been driven out of England for his pro-Scottish views, would he be so forgiving of this sort of mob-imposed silence?

So, if you're an outsider in a location and hold principles in opposition to the general mood of the population of that location, the amount of shit and the size of the fan go up exponentially with how big of a player on the board you are.

And that is a bad thing, an inevitable thing, but nonetheless a bad thing. Not something that should be lauded. I mean, how much credibility can your movement have when one of the key objections to someone's views is 'they be an outsider yar' It seems like something more suited to Innesmouth, than an actual, modern political movement.

Oh and I don't think either side is right on this one, because they're both just saying the other should just shut up and doesn't deserve to be listened to. Hell, some of us were more mature than that when we were 6 and playing in a sandbox.

Well, yeah, I was, however, pointing out the specific hypocrisy in this thread. In all honesty, I could give a shit about English populism or Scottish populism, I just thought the differing manner that people here and now are treating them was funny.

Also, "freedom of speech" doesn't apply here, it was not the doing of the Scottish government.

Legal freedom of speech, no. Moral freedom of speech, yes. Because when you shout down someone, you are impeding their ability to speak, not by being right, or by being convincing, but simply by being loud, then you are impinging upon their moral freedom of speech. And the thing is, this is not their house, these are not elected representatives or legal authorities of Edinburgh any more than the Blackshirts were the authorities in London. (not equating them morally of course, just pointing out that just because you can get a mob of your mates together does not make you the voice of the people.)

the clockmaker:
just because you can get a mob of your mates together does not make you the voice of the people.)

neither does 0.28% of the vote (UKIPs vote share in the last elections in Scotland just 2 years ago).

i mean ffs the people of Edinburgh elected a guy in a penguin suit to the city council and all Farage and his party could manage was 0.28% of the overall vote and not a single elected official, at any level, in the entire country.

even with mixed-member proportional representation in use for the parliamentary elections which usually aids smaller parties in gaining a seat or two (like the greens).

frankly he got more respect than he deserved to begin with...and he managed to fuck that up by trying to leverage racist sectarianism.

Sleekit:

the clockmaker:
just because you can get a mob of your mates together does not make you the voice of the people.)

neither does 0.28% of the vote (UKIPs vote share in the last elections in Scotland just 2 years ago).

i mean ffs the people of Edinburgh elected a guy in a penguin suit to the city council and all Farage and his party could manage was 0.28% of the overall vote and not a single elected official, at any level, in the entire country.

frankly he got more respect than he deserved to begin with...and he managed to fuck that up by trying to leverage racist sectarianism.

So it is okay to silence people so long as they are unpopular? And I note that you ignored my other two points re:would you be okay with it if the other side did it to you? and why are you okay with Scottish Populism, but not English

i'm fine with English populism as long as it doesn't effect or try to effect my country.
other than that its really none of my concern.

and being an Australian i forgive you for not knowing of the surge of anti-Scottish feeling that's existed in England since the Blair/Brown (and Scot heavy) government became unpopular.

tbth i think you are confusing "unpopular" with "a political non entity because everyone objects to their political position and no one votes for them".

hell, if the media in Scotland was indigenous farange would get less airtime than that penguin on Edinburgh city council and frankly that's all he deserves given his non existent support.

your not talking about anyone who deserves a platform in Scottish politics
he has no political support from the people of Scotland.
we aren't buying what he's peddling.
ukip. is. nothing. here.
it's a political non entity.

i honestly don't know how else to put it.

why should any of us put up with someone and their views when they are a complete anathema to the entire population ?
have you really thought through what you're arguing for indulgence of here ?

and we didn't silence anyone. he was on BBC radio this morning. where he hung up on due to their "hostility" because they dared to asked him how many elected representatives his party had in Scotland (none).

Sleekit:

and being an Australian i forgive you for not knowing of the surge of anti-Scottish feeling that's existed in England since the Blair/Brown (and Scot heavy) government became unpopular.

Uh... not really... most of the Anti-Scottish sentiment has come as a direct result of the Scottish nationalism. It's almost entirely along the "Well then if they want to be that way, fuck 'em!" Because we like Scotland but Scotland doesn't like us. :[

Which, amusingly, seems to be England's relationship with much of the world. :V

Sleekit:

anyway my last word goes to one of the protesters: "you know as much about Scotland as you do about flying planes"...

I like what the daily mash had to say about it: http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/politics/politics-headlines/farage-attacked-by-scottish-farage-2013051769143

Farage attacked by Scottish Farage

image

NIGEL Farage stared through the looking glass yesterday as he was besieged in an Edinburgh pub by demented nationalists.

The UKIP leader had gone to Scotland to talk about why the country you come from is the most important thing about you, but was forced to flee by some furious Scottish people who believe exactly the same thing.

Farage said: "It was like Being John Malkovich. I looked out and saw lots of angry Scottish versions of my own face.

"Thankfully, it has taught me absolutely nothing."

Bill McKay, a Scottish Farage, said: "I want to kill that posh English bastard and his message of hate."

Lolz!

Danny Ocean:

Sleekit:

anyway my last word goes to one of the protesters: "you know as much about Scotland as you do about flying planes"...

I like what the daily mash had to say about it: http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/politics/politics-headlines/farage-attacked-by-scottish-farage-2013051769143

Farage attacked by Scottish Farage

image

NIGEL Farage stared through the looking glass yesterday as he was besieged in an Edinburgh pub by demented nationalists.

The UKIP leader had gone to Scotland to talk about why the country you come from is the most important thing about you, but was forced to flee by some furious Scottish people who believe exactly the same thing.

Farage said: "It was like Being John Malkovich. I looked out and saw lots of angry Scottish versions of my own face.

"Thankfully, it has taught me absolutely nothing."

Bill McKay, a Scottish Farage, said: "I want to kill that posh English bastard and his message of hate."

Lolz!

titter

the irony that we want what they want ie not to be ruled by a distant legislature we have no democratic control over is not lost on Scots but sadly they don't see it quite the same way.

they are the righteous freedom fighters...and we ? we're separatists at best and apparently fascists at worst.

theirs is the nice kind of nationalism...ours the bad (a point i'd take serious issue with tbth)

pity really. if he came out as the pure English nationalist he actually is there could well have been some kind of cross border arrangement of mutual understanding...but they aren't prepared to let us slip away that easily...even the ones that hate us...they covent the one ring that is Westminster far too much for that.

i would love someone to ask him in interview why Scotland should remain in the UK given the similar grievances tbh but he'd probably just waffle on some lightweight unionist crap involving the war, sharing a common language, 300 years of history and the fact we share roughly the same Western European lifestyle...

Sleekit:
snip

1-A political non-entity is unpopular, that is the definition
2-Until the 2014 referendum, the UK is your country, and its politicians are your politicians, just a fact
3-He was silenced 'hounded off of the streets' in your words
4-Fair enough, re reading it was somebody else harping on on the populism front
5-You vote in MPs, you vote out MPs, you have democratic influence in your nation and to claim otherwise is bald faced lie.
6-Distant parliment? tell that to Darwin or Perth (NB, the Australian ones) mate. I love it when Europeans go on about things being distant.
7-From what I've been hearing, the Scotish Nationalism has been the reason for the anti-scottish feeling

oh great..."Scotland isn't a country"...not even nigel would utter that old chestnut...

i suppose Australia wasn't a country until 1986 then ?

not even the English haters commonly offer up that line because to so is to equally suggest neither is England.

you were wrong about the existence of one "UK law" and it being "the same house" and your wrong about that too.

i am a Scot from Scotland. which btw has always had it's own distinct legal system including its own constitutional law.
i am also currently a Brit
i am also currently an EU citizen.

a citizen of a country which is (currently) part of a larger union enabled by international treaty which in turn is (currently) part of yet another larger union enabled by international treaty.

and we vote on all three levels.

there are issues with democratic accountability on two of those levels because of the historical voting systems and institutions in place.

what we are voting on in 2014 is withdrawing from one of those treaties.

what we are voting on in 2017 is withdrawing from one of those treaties.

we aren't creating a country anew.

the country exists now and has always existed in historical perpetuity.

how dare you tell me my country doesn't exist.

how dare you presume to tell me what and who i am.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countries_of_the_United_Kingdom

image

y'know what that is ? that's a map of all the unitary states in the world. perhaps you should find out what one is.

the clockmaker:

2-Until the 2014 referendum, the UK is your country, and its politicians are your politicians, just a fact

In one sense of the word, yes (the sense of "sovereign state").

But Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland are indeed constituent countries.

UKIP just loves to make themselves look bad don't they?

Sleekit:
oh great..."Scotland isn't a country"...not even nigel would utter that old chestnut...

FIrst off mate, what I said is that the UK was your country, if you want to use the existance of a smaller country within that to feel special, more power to you mate. We can all take pride in our heritage, I am glad that I am an Irish Australian, but that doesnt mean that I am going t use that history to seperate myself from my countrymen. I did not actually say that Scotland wasn't a country, and if I were to clarify my position on the subject it would be that any claims that Scotland has to being a country would be highly technical in nature and irrelevant to the world as a whole.

i suppose Australia wasn't a country until 1986 then ?

You know for someone with almost comical levels of outrage over someone not 'getting' your country, you are very very quick to jump in with misunderstanding about other nations.
Before 1986 Australia had
-A prime minister
-Our own military
-Our own foreign policy
-Our own allies and enemies
-Engaged in wars without the UK
-A seat at the UN
-Our own federal policing and intelligence services
-An independent economic policy
-Diplomatic engagements
-etc etc

What you are trying to here is apply technicalities over realities, just as you are trying to do with the Uk.

What you should have run with there would have been 1901, before we had any of those things. And then my answer would have been 'no we were not a nation'

not even the English haters

Way to tone back the hate there buddy, really feeling like this is good, non-hostile position that you are taking

commonly offer up that line because to so is to equally suggest neither is England.

As as far as the world is concerned, beyond the technicalities that matter inside the UK and only inside the UK, it is not.

you were wrong about the existence of one "UK law"

Considering that I did not say that there was only one uk law and what I said was that uk law stipulates that the UK exists, Ima gonna have to disagree with you there

and it being "the same house" and your wrong about that too.

Just keep shouting 'you're wrong' mate. It is one nation with a collection of squabbling sub nations, one house with multiple tenants is an apt analogy. What you need to do now, is take a step back and see this unemotionally, without the interference of your personal investment in the issue.

i am a Scot from Scotland. which btw has always had it's own distinct legal system including its own constitutional law.
i am also currently a Brit
i am also currently an EU citizen.

See though, I never denied that, I said that Scotland is British and belongs to the same nation, so when a British citizen is deemed to be an 'outsider' well that seems a little off, telling them to 'go back to their own house' to strain a metaphor even more, is again, not really warranted. The dude is a politician of your nation, hate him, hold out for your referendum, pray for the day there is only one cross on your flag, but until then, stop denying things that are true.

a citizen of a country which is (currently) part of a larger union enabled by international treaty which in turn is (currently) part of yet another larger union enabled by international treaty.

Which is historically fascinating, but irrelevant on the world stage. Technically, Yogyakarta is an independent kingdom, but that doesn't matter to the rest of the world does it?

and we vote on all three levels.

Sorry mate, but did you not say a few posts ago that you were without democratic influence? 'distant legislature we have no democratic control over' were your own words, and again, the fact that you think anywhere to anywhere else in the british isles is distant shows how provincial you are being over this. I don't consider Edinburgh to London distant. If you were ruled by moscow perhaps I might budge on this and I know, it isn't nice to beat you with the 'your country is tiny' stick and I wouldn't had you not brought up geographical distance.

there are issues with democratic accountability on two of those levels because of the historical voting systems and institutions in place.

See a legitimate grievance, one that might be happy to agree with was it not attached to the rest of your post

what we are voting on in 2014 is withdrawing from one of those treaties.

what we are voting on in 2017 is withdrawing from one of those treaties.

And again, if an when Scotland votes to withdraw from the UK, it will be an independent nation, it is only a year mate, not a long time to wait for you to be able to make certain claims.

we aren't creating a country anew.

No, you are reforming a nation that gave up its independence in order to escape debt from failed ventures. There is a key part of that sentence that I would like you to understand.

the country exists now and has always existed in historical perpetuity.

See I would call myself a nationalist, but that right there, that is the sort of thing that only crazy nationalists say.

how dare you tell me my country doesn't exist.

how dare you presume to tell me what and who i am.

Quick, better play the outrage card, otherwise you might have to examine your views.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countries_of_the_United_Kingdom

image

y'know what that is ? that's a map of all the unitary states in the world. perhaps you should find out what one is.

Perhaps you should mate, I know a lot of Kiwis, not many will say that their country is the north island (I know that the terminology is off there for my kiwi mates, but I'm making a point here), I know of very few Indonesians who will claim that their country in Kalimantan. Very few Japanese... See where I am going with this.

A unitary state is formed when several, smaller states give up their independence to become part of a larger state. Again, key phrase there is...

Now that you have got your outrage out of the way, care to get back to actually discussing things?

Scottish independence is an interesting subject. Unlike say the welsh, the scots actually have industries to fall back on. Right now they're part of the United Kingdom because it's supposed to be beneficial to them.

It's a question worth discussion, since I can actually see a good pragmatic reason for this movement. Britain so far has been bleeding away it's own future and if Britain also decides to back out of the EU, making them lose most of their trade agreements; it might be better for the Scots to go for independence.

EDIT: Of course I barely know what is going on, so I'll just see how things go in 2014.

the clockmaker:

we aren't creating a country anew.

No, you are reforming a nation that gave up its independence in order to escape debt from failed ventures. There is a key part of that sentence that I would like you to understand.

i don't do bullet point post exchanges so i'm just gonna start here referencing the point above.
the following is only really here because i'm not what you think i am...that and im bored.

that treaty was signed at a time when Scotland wasn't "democratic". darien was a private venture largely indulged by the very same people who stood to benefit the most from signing the treaty...it was also signed during massive riots against its signing in the back room of a private house in Edinburgh because the old Scottish parliament building had been mobbed by people looking to stop the act being signed.

it was not, at the time, the will of the people by any stretch of the imagination.

do you know from whence "sovereignty" comes in Scots constitutional law in our historical and cultural tradition ? the people.

not down from the monarch or "the crown" or "parliamentary sovereignty" which are English cultural & legal concepts but from the people up.

what i'm trying to highlight to you here is that the signing of the act of union was basically a betrayal of the Scottish people by the landed gentry and aristocracy.

even with that said Scotland actually only "gave up" specific things (mostly having our own parliament) while other aspects of public life (such as our legal system and the national church which at the time was responsible for public education) were actually specifically protected and preserved as "independent" by the act of union.

i'm not a nationalist.

i would actually be far more in favour of a reformed union than independence...

we were "bought and sold for English gold"...and i know fine well it wasn't "the English" that did it...indeed anti-English sentiment is one of the reasons the planners of darien refused to listen to many experts on "the new world" who honestly told them trying to colonise the isthmus of Panama was a very bad idea and instead when heard such things, even from non English experts they had sought out in Europe, they largely put it down to an English backed conspiracy of dissuasion /facepalm

personally i would prefer a federal setup with equal voting rights per "state" at a federal level (alongside representation per head) something akin to the two chamber systems that do exactly that in many modern democratic countries with multiple sub "states" like the US, Germany, Canada and your own Australia.

unfortunately you need pretty much everyone to think its a good and necessary idea for something like that to come about and the only party who have ever officially offered up such a policy in the UK are the lib dems...and they seem to have largely forgotten about it.

which btw is why i mentioned its a pity we couldn't come to some arrangement with UKIP earlier...because a great many of the English right wing electorate also want a separate English parliament...even though their politicians want to retain Westminster parliamentary sovereignty and supremacy...because ofc they get to wield it.

what is wrong with the Britain constitutionally is "the one ring" nature of a single chamber of the Westminster parliament and the absolute power over the whole of the UK that can be achieved by winning "the hearts and minds" of the English electorate alone...because whatever you want to call us the four home nations are not all the same historically and thus culturally and thus politically.

simply put we have no "states rights" at all...a situation that has been considered as a democratically problematic negative by a great many far brighter people than me over the last few hundred years....

i don't hate "the English"...i merely believe that as a people they are politically divergent from Scots...for their own historical and cultural reasons...and that would be fine as long as their particular states internal politics didn't unilaterally set policy for the entirety of the UK.

i am not a nationalist but i will probably vote for "independence" because i have come to believe that is the only way we will regain political power over our own state at levels akin that which we should possess...and also because i believe that our relationship with England and the English people will probably improve (because atm their right wing politics has basically labelled my entire nation "scroungers" within a "strivers vs scroungers" political narrative)...but its not a decision i have arrived at naturally or lightly and in the longer run i would also probably vote to join a new union that was actually "fit for purpose" in the 21st century and beyond...but that is probably a long way away...although i do believe it will probably happen one day...and ye you can infer by that that i believe "independence" to be an inevitability too...maybe not in 2014...but this movement/process isn't going to end there either...

Great Britain is just fundamentally constitutionally broken and the only thing that's largely holding it together at this point is Westminster politicians thirst for centralized power.

ps. even if Scotland goes "independent" we'll still actually be in the UK...kinda. the term UK directly comes from the union of the crowns (kingdoms) which took place over a hundred years before Scotland and England entered into the treaty that created the unitary state that was labelled "Great Britain". in short the terms are gonna get really mucked about but i very much doubt the Queen wants to give up her claim to the Scottish throne...in which case England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland ? still United Kingdoms....

pps. when i said "distant" before about the legislatures i didn't just mean solely geographically.

ppps. as for farange i don't really care what nationality he is, he deserved to be hounded as soon as he tried to politically leverage skin colour and religious denomination.

Well he does make good points. You got to give him that.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3RjUJy7kDOM

 Pages 1 2 NEXT

Reply to Thread

This thread is locked