Russia introduces law protecting feelings of believers...

 Pages PREV 1 2
 

Sometimes I miss the atheist, communist empire of the Soviet Union. Not the brutality, oppression and poverty. But the glory of the nation/army and the no religion ruling over things. The law was the law, not religious law.
Guess Putin is shoring up his base of Orthodox Christians. I dono why, he's gona be President till like 2020 at least. Maybe he's expecting something and wants the people on his side (the majority being religious types) by offering them this. I dono.

IllumInaTIma:
So, basically, you may be fined for 300,000 rubles (almost $10,000) or imprisoned for one year for publicly offending or showing disrespect for someone's religious feelings. Fine increases to 500,000 rubles (almost $16,000) and 3 years if you were to do it in religious places (e.g. churches). Officially, that law was made as response to the "Pussy Riot" thingy...
Anyway, what are your thoughts on that law? I think it's really silly and unclear. What qualifies as offense? Who qualifies as believer? Are atheists believers in a sense of that law?

As a Christian myself, I have to ask... What's the penalty for a religious group or individual offending a non-practitioner/believer? Because if they're going to give believers legal protection against mean words, that right there is a two-way street. If I have the right to believe in God and not be insulted for it, then others should have the right to NOT believe in God, or believe in a different God(s) without fear of being abused by assholes too.

Y'know, I always thought Russians were a tough group of people. But making laws against verbal boo boos? That shit's for pussies. The citizenry should show their disdain by rioting. It would be a sort of... Pussy Riot.

...

I have been holding that one in for MONTHS. I don't apologize.

DoPo:

MarsAtlas:
Obviously a horrendous offense of trampling of people's free speech rights

That's Russia you're talking about. I'm not dissing them but from what I've heard "democracy" is more of a loose term there. Also, I just looked up some more info, it seems like it's not just "insult" more of "humiliation in public" so it's not a mere bad word or something that would get you in jail - it's (supposed) to be more deliberate and harsher than that. Also, the larger fines aren't exactly for doing the same in a religious place - it's desecration and destruction of objects considered significant by the religion. You know like actually attacking and damaging churches and such. I don't think it's just "hurt feelings" as you seem to imply.

See, that makes more sense. But it now begs ANOTHER question: Is the defacing of holy land/objects an actual PROBLEM in Russia? Because I've never heard of roving bands of unruly atheists smashing up churches or assaulting parishioners. In any first or second world country. Ever.

It seems to me this is Russian Christians doing what any group does when its oppressed for a long time, push back really hard when it has the chance. Christianity has come back in a big way since the CCCP fell and I can see their mindset for doing this. Is it wrong? Yes, but I can see where they're coming from.

King Kazma:
Sometimes I miss the atheist, communist empire of the Soviet Union. Not the brutality, oppression and poverty. But the glory of the nation/army and the no religion ruling over things. The law was the law, not religious law.

I'm sorry.....what? Is it just me, or are you making the implication that Soviet Laws where anything that was against the state in anyway whatsoever was in anyway positive?

Russia; once a haven for glorious militant atheism is now being consumed by the barbarism of religion once more.

Comrade Stalin must be rolling in his grave.

Lol Pot:
Russia; once a haven for glorious militant atheism is now being consumed by the barbarism of religion once more.

Comrade Stalin must be rolling in his grave.

Somehow I think Stalin is already worn out.

At first, I didn't see this as a big deal. But then reading it again, "Publically offending". Does that included political articles criticizing religion? Because that would just be stupid.

I'm curious, from people who know Russians or read Russian, *is* this coming from completely from the Orthodox community? I don't know about this specific legislation but what I do know is that Russia has a Dominionism problem, one of many places where that insidious brand of theocratic Christian thinking exported from the US has taken hold. I've read quite a few reports of gay-bashing in Russia, fueled by "Joel's Army"-linked groups. I'd love to know what role they've played in this.

MrHide-Patten:
As an Atheist I don't like hearing Religious zealots got on about bullshit on the streets, can I have them fined?

Or, to rephrase your point a tad more clearly: Why can't anyone who feels offended or 'humiliated in public' sue whoever has offended them? Why should we take the feelings of a certain group of people more seriously than any other group?

Frission:
Well the Orthodox Church has always been pretty powerful. The church has always been a tool of the government in Russia.

Always? I doubt "powerful" is the best way to describe the Russian Orthodox Church circa 1917-1990.

* * *

At any rate, I barely care that the Russians introduce this law. Partly because it seems negligibly different from lots of similar laws all over the Western world, and more because it's nowhere near the top of Russia's problems.

Now does this apply to all religions, or just the orthodox church?
...
It's just the orthodox church, isn't it?

image
Damn it Putin!

DoPo:

lRookiel:
-snip-

Hey offtopic - I think your avatar is...umm broken. That offends my fate and I will have you arrested! :P Joking of course.

But seriously, it's broken.

Looks fine to me, maybe the page loaded funny on your end :P

So pretty much their version of political correctness, but you get fined by it.

lRookiel:

DoPo:

lRookiel:
-snip-

Hey offtopic - I think your avatar is...umm broken. That offends my fate and I will have you arrested! :P Joking of course.

But seriously, it's broken.

Looks fine to me, maybe the page loaded funny on your end :P

Yeah, that was it, sorry - I realised it later yesterday. I had accidentally disabled animated images... When I noticed TopazFusion's avatar wasn't doing anything so I figured "Well, it can't be two people at the same time" and I noticed animations were disabled.

IllumInaTIma:
Anyway, what are your thoughts on that law?

That it's plainly immoral and every single person responsible for passing a law like that should be removed from office.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maryland_Toleration_Act

This is an example of what might be considered a good version of this law.

'Don't talk about it. Don't talk about it publicly, don't do anything with it publicly, and if you get on someone else about their religion or beliefs whatever it is, we'll fine your ass'.

The russian version is hella corrupt and backwards though in a free thinking society.

MarsAtlas:

DoPo:
OK, from what you're asking and the way you're asking it, I think you're missing the problem and focusing on something that matters less.

A church getting vandalized is more important than people's freedom to speak?

I should clarify, I could be speaking out my ass as I'm not into politics or Russian politics and the like but I know some Russians and I'm basing what I'm saying on conversations I've had with them. So yes, you are missing the problem. And focussing on something that matters less. Your concern would be otherwise grounded but in this case I think you're assuming too much it's a USA-like situation. When Russia is rife with other issues and actually making an ambiguously worded possibly incredibly easy to enforce law is...not that big of an issue. It doesn't really add more problems as much as sort of stir the current ones a bit. People could get prosecuted and put in jail for lots of things, religion isn't really going to make many more innocents being put on trial. So in the grand scheme of things, I do not think you seem to assume this is a big flaw when it isn't that big.

Don't get me wrong - the law is abusable or even just plain bad and everything but so are many other stuff.

Thats my entire point. It can be abused very easily, and is probably likely to be abused. The law needs a lot of work then. I mean, isn't the point of the law to prevent things that happened in an incident, whereas trespassing and vandalism, among other things, should cover it? I mean if something offends you, but they're not doing any harm, then they should just deal with it. If they are causing harm, there already exists laws for that. Example: For all the hate teh Westbore Baptist Church receives, they do not break the law. Everything they do is completely legal. They cause no physical harm to anybody or their property, and they do not damage public property. They don't even litter. I don't like their protests, but laws already exist on the book to prevent them from doing harmful things.

MarsAtlas:
A teacher trying to teach evolution in the classroom?

DoPo:

It's funny you mention this. On two accounts. First, I don't think Orthodox church has a huge issue with evolution.

I'm not even talking about an organized movement. I'm just talking about in general. All it takes is one upset parent to challenge the school curriculum.

It's a different way of thinking. People who grew up under communism tend to think differently about these things than people who grew up in the West. There is a lot of cynicism in the way they think and they see abusable laws as a norm. If someone in power is out to get you, it really does not matter what law they will use to do it and it does not really matter if the charges are true. For us the new "democratic" Russia is not really different than the old communist Russia.

The assumption is that the courts will decide the issues based on political alignment rather than on the merits or the wording of the law. So if a parent challenges the school curriculum based on this law, the issue will be decided on politics and not law. If the Ministry of Education has strong backing then the issue will be quashed.

Different way of thinking.

This would be a difficult law for most people to not break, unless they avoid honest communication. You can't predict what some people will be offended by when it comes to religion. This is a terrible law.

Lol Pot:
Russia; once a haven for glorious militant atheism is now being consumed by the barbarism of religion once more.

When was it a haven for militant atheists? The orthodox church has held significant power since before Constantinople fell!

Hafrael:

Lol Pot:
Russia; once a haven for glorious militant atheism is now being consumed by the barbarism of religion once more.

When was it a haven for militant atheists? The orthodox church has held significant power since before Constantinople fell!

It took a hit under communism, though, that to what extent can be argued, and it changed over time.

Do you have a translated source with the definition there? Because "showing disrespect" or "offending" sounds horrendously bad. I can't believe they would be this vague and open to interpretation in their actual text of the law.

I'm just wondering whether this law is merely incredibly awful or horrible beyond any possible imagination.

Also, does this apply for any "religious group" or is it selectively protecting the Orthodox church? What about non-Monotheistic religious people, like Pantheists, Polytheists, Pagans? Or "spiritual people" who don't believe in any gods? What about the "religious group" that comprises the "Nones"?

EDIT: @Bentusi16

'Don't talk about it. Don't talk about it publicly, don't do anything with it publicly, and if you get on someone else about their religion or beliefs whatever it is, we'll fine your ass'.

Sounds awfully restrictive, too. And clearly in violation of free speech rights.

Skeleon:
Do you have a translated source with the definition there? Because "showing disrespect" or "offending" sounds horrendously bad. I can't believe they would be this vague and open to interpretation in their actual text of the law.

I'm just wondering whether this law is merely incredibly awful or horrible beyond any possible imagination.

Also, does this apply for any "religious group" or is it selectively protecting the Orthodox church? What about non-Monotheistic religious people, like Pantheists, Polytheists, Pagans? Or "spiritual people" who don't believe in any gods? What about the "religious group" that comprises the "Nones"?

EDIT: @Bentusi16

'Don't talk about it. Don't talk about it publicly, don't do anything with it publicly, and if you get on someone else about their religion or beliefs whatever it is, we'll fine your ass'.

Sounds awfully restrictive, too. And clearly in violation of free speech rights.

This was written before free speech was considered a thing that existed.

That being said, it kind of worked. It held the colony together in the time of the english civil war until a rogue Virginian captain decided to take matters into his own hand and sacked the colony; but afterwards the Calverts were restored and it went back to the things they were doing before. Catholics in power and living peacefully, if somewhat tensely, alongside protestants.

And of course it was for christians only, this was the 1600's.

I can guarantee you that no one will ever be convicted of harming the religious feelings of Muslims in Russia. No one. Not one person. I can also guarantee you that no one will ever be convicted of harming the religious feelings of Hindus or Buddhists in Russia.

I can also be pretty sure that most "offenses" against Orthodox Christianity will not be prosecuted, because the government will not be interested in that. I will guarantee you 100% that you can be as militant an atheist (and I am an atheist) as you want in Russia, and the government will not lift one finger against you, because Putin himself is an atheist.

This law is going to target one and only one group of people - gay people. That is what this law is designed to do. Any protest against mistreatment by the gay community of Russia, any rally or celebration of gay pride will be ruthlessly crushed under this law as it will be deemed to be offensive to religion. Gay people will be harassed because their very existence will be deemed offensive to the Church.

Meet the New Russia, not too different from the Old Russia.

Korolev:
because Putin himself is an atheist.

Are you sure about that?
http://www.rossrants.com/putinfishing.jpg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladimir_Putin
http://hollowverse.com/vladimir-putin/
Sure it could be PR but it doesn't look like that.

I hate to break it to you, but laws like this already exist in a number of European countries. In Iceland where I live this has already been a crime since our republic was founded. Grossly offending religion will land you jail time here also.

IllumInaTIma:
So, basically, you may be fined for 300,000 rubles (almost $10,000) or imprisoned for one year for publicly offending or showing disrespect for someone's religious feelings. Fine increases to 500,000 rubles (almost $16,000) and 3 years if you were to do it in religious places (e.g. churches). Officially, that law was made as response to the "Pussy Riot" thingy...
Anyway, what are your thoughts on that law? I think it's really silly and unclear. What qualifies as offense? Who qualifies as believer? Are atheists believers in a sense of that law?

.
Hungary did a similar thing. To those liberal atheists who think of this as some sort of crime against humanity, I show you Jobbik. With that said, it is indeed a political move by the current administration to strengthen its ties with the religious right wing and expand their power base while stepping over minorities like atheists. I wonder if the goverment would enforce this in favor of Muslim and non-Christian faiths.

King Kazma:
Sometimes I miss the atheist, communist empire of the Soviet Union. Not the brutality, oppression and poverty. But the glory of the nation/army and the no religion ruling over things. The law was the law, not religious law.
Guess Putin is shoring up his base of Orthodox Christians. I dono why, he's gona be President till like 2020 at least. Maybe he's expecting something and wants the people on his side (the majority being religious types) by offering them this. I dono.

The Soviet Union was atheist because organized religion would possibly take away authority away from the government.
The law was whatever the leader said it was. If the leader broke/changed the existing law, nothing happened.
Dictatorships are just like religious states, the leader is god and the government are the holy men.

huh....I would have imagined that Russia's communist days would have beaten religion out of its people.

HardkorSB:

King Kazma:
Sometimes I miss the atheist, communist empire of the Soviet Union. Not the brutality, oppression and poverty. But the glory of the nation/army and the no religion ruling over things. The law was the law, not religious law.
Guess Putin is shoring up his base of Orthodox Christians. I dono why, he's gona be President till like 2020 at least. Maybe he's expecting something and wants the people on his side (the majority being religious types) by offering them this. I dono.

The Soviet Union was atheist because organized religion would possibly take away authority away from the government.
The law was whatever the leader said it was. If the leader broke/changed the existing law, nothing happened.
Dictatorships are just like religious states, the leader is god and the government are the holy men.

Sounds like America your describing with alot of that response.

Desert Punk:
Well, its only a matter of time till the retards in the US govt pass something similar.

And on that day, I will form a religion that is extremely offended by horrible business practices, and my church shall go on a crusade against Hollywood and the more retarded sectors of the games industry.

What shall it be called? Although if such a law was passed it would only apply to officially sanctioned churches (those with tax related privileges).

Ryotknife:
huh....I would have imagined that Russia's communist days would have beaten religion out of its people.

Communist Russia was just pre-Bolshevik Russia with a new guy in charge - it went from the tsar and his court being all powerful and corrupt to the ruling party being all powerful and corrupt. It wasn't so much 'Communist Russian culture' as just plain 'Russian culture'.

Did you even read the law? Or you just read some internet article and decided to judge Russia and it's people? It was a project of the law which wasn't even accepted. Duma decided to postpone it and wait for corrections to include atheist's interests. And this law was about vandalism in churches and graveyards which is a big problem in Russia with crazy women like Pussy Riot dancing and swearing in churches.

Aatolviina your post is insulting and russophobic. But hey freedom of speech ftw!

Hafrael:

When was it a haven for militant atheists? The orthodox church has held significant power since before Constantinople fell!

Under Marxist-Leninist rule by law the Russian state was to do whatever was necessary to eliminate religion. Christians, Muslisms and practicing Jews were persecuted, religious buildings were destroyed, men, women and children were recruited into atheist, anti-theist movements (League of Militant Atheists) and glorious state sponsored propaganda was printed (such as the Bezboznhik)

 Pages PREV 1 2

Reply to Thread

This thread is locked