British soldier killed in London 'terrorist attack.'

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Firstly, I hope this is the correct place for this, given that it's probably a terrorist attack, I thought R&P was the best place.

This afternoon a British serviceman was attacked and killed near his base in Woolwich. Apparently 2 individuals crashed a car into him, got out of the car and attacked the man with a meat cleaver and knifes. The victim was wearing a 'Help for Heroes' shirt - a charity that raises money for injured troops. The victim is now confirmed to have been a UK serviceman.

The two attackers were according to early reports of Muslim appearance, and shouted allahu akbar (god is great) upon killing the man, and then according to reports asked onlookers to take photographs of their deed. The incident was also filmed, footage of which is now available on the internet.

Police then arrived, and shot the two men, who are now in hospital. The incident is being treated as a terrorist attack.

Pretty crazy huh? I can see this leading to a lot more table thumping by the EDL and BNP and probably UKIP and anyone else of their ilk. The usual kind of thing, about how Muslims are all violent rapists who are destroying British culture and identity and abusing our customs etc. I think it calls for some responsible reporting, but no doubt there will be plenty of sensationalist hype from the media too :(

Still, it does highlight a pretty serious problem in the UK, and of itself is an exceptionally brutal attack.

Edit: Also, I wrote this fairly soon after the events, based on early news reports which were confusing and which may have changed since. I've since edited the OP and tried to amend any errors or misleading information that may have been posted as a result of my paraphrasing reports.

BBC live: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22630304

Wadders:
Firstly, I hope this is the correct place for this, given that it's probably a terrorist attack, I thought R&P was the best place.

This afternoon a British serviceman was attacked and killed near his base in Woolwich. Apparently 2 individuals crashed a car into him, got out of the car and attacked the man with a sword or machete. The victim was wearing a 'Help for Heroes' shirt - a charity that raises money for injured troops.

The two attackers were ostensibly of Muslim appearance, and shouted allahu akbar (god is great) upon killing the man, and then according to reports asked onlookers to take photographs of their deed. Apparently the incident was also filmed.

Police then arrived, and shot the two men, who are now in hospital. The incident is being treated as a terrorist attack.

Pretty crazy huh? I can see this leading to a lot more table thumping by the EDL and BNP and probably UKIP and anyone else of their ilk. I think it calls for some responsible reporting, but no doubt there will be plenty of sensationalist hype from the media too :(

BBC live: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22630304

Sounds to me like a bunch of assholes trying to attract negative attention towards Muslims.

Jayemsal:

Wadders:
Firstly, I hope this is the correct place for this, given that it's probably a terrorist attack, I thought R&P was the best place.

This afternoon a British serviceman was attacked and killed near his base in Woolwich. Apparently 2 individuals crashed a car into him, got out of the car and attacked the man with a sword or machete. The victim was wearing a 'Help for Heroes' shirt - a charity that raises money for injured troops.

The two attackers were ostensibly of Muslim appearance, and shouted allahu akbar (god is great) upon killing the man, and then according to reports asked onlookers to take photographs of their deed. Apparently the incident was also filmed.

Police then arrived, and shot the two men, who are now in hospital. The incident is being treated as a terrorist attack.

Pretty crazy huh? I can see this leading to a lot more table thumping by the EDL and BNP and probably UKIP and anyone else of their ilk. I think it calls for some responsible reporting, but no doubt there will be plenty of sensationalist hype from the media too :(

BBC live: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22630304

Sounds to me like a bunch of assholes trying to attract negative attention towards Muslims.

Who? The attackers? More like an attack in relation Britain's role in the 'war on terror'. But yeah, no doubt the EDL will use this as a rod with which to beat the whole Muslim community of England.

Clearly the only people responsible for this crime are the two perpetrators but this sort of attack shows we do really need to work on integrating certain minority groups into our society, or risk tensions between certain factions (Islamists vs BNP/EDL) reaching boiling point. In the meantime, I would suggest limiting immigration to mainly people from Western cultures with similar values to our own or those which are at-least fairly compatible, such as the Chinese and Japanese.

Wadders:

Pretty crazy huh? I can see this leading to a lot more table thumping by the EDL and BNP and probably UKIP and anyone else of their ilk. The usual kind of thing, about how Muslims are all violent rapists who are destroying British culture and identity and abusing our customs etc. I think it calls for some responsible reporting, but no doubt there will be plenty of sensationalist hype from the media too

Well, one can hardly argue there is no problem with Muslims carrying out religious ideology-charged killings; some discussion is merited.

The importance is to retain a sense of perspective, and fit things within a wider frame. Many crimes are group-specific (at least by tendency), whether the group be Muslims committing terrorist acts, inner-city youths joining gangs, and so on. Although they all have their unique qualities that may merit group-specific attention, I suspect there are underlying, common threads. Social disaffection is likely to be a major one, where the expression of that disaffection is guided by differing cultural norms.

Are we even sure they said "allahu akbar" and not "Admiral Ackbar"? Not relevant, it would just make the incident more interesting.

What "pretty serious issue" does it highlight? That some people are crazy? Even if you want to call that a terrorist attack (which I'd debate), it would make it the first successful terror attack in the UK since the 2005 Underground bombing that killed more than the terrorist. So really, I don't see the serious issue.

And cue the "good thing the UK has rational gun control regulations" that is bound to happen.

JoJo:
Clearly the only people responsible for this crime are the two perpetrators but this sort of attack shows we do really need to work on integrating certain minority groups into our society, or risk tensions between certain factions (Islamists vs BNP/EDL) reaching boiling point. In the meantime, I would suggest limiting immigration to mainly people from Western cultures with similar values to our own or those which are at-least fairly compatible, such as the Chinese and Japanese.

Yeah, consensus from the police seems to be that they were just acting alone, not as part of a plot or wider group - almost like they were just driving around the barracks, looking for a soldier to hack to death.

As far as limiting immigration goes, I disagree. The damage has already been done, but yes we urgently need to find ways of integrating newcomers to our country.

JoJo:
Clearly the only people responsible for this crime are the two perpetrators but this sort of attack shows we do really need to work on integrating certain minority groups into our society, or risk tensions between certain factions (Islamists vs BNP/EDL) reaching boiling point. In the meantime, I would suggest limiting immigration to mainly people from Western cultures with similar values to our own or those which are at-least fairly compatible, such as the Chinese and Japanese.

The problem is that many people that are 'immigrating' today that are from the middle-east aren't really 'immigrating'. They are fleeing, and being granted asylum. Turning them down isn't something that's always a humane option.

Quaxar:
Are we even sure they said "allahu akbar" and not "Admiral Ackbar"? Not relevant, it would just make the incident more interesting.

What "pretty serious issue" does it highlight? That some people are crazy? Even if you want to call that a terrorist attack (which I'd debate), it would make it the first terror attack in the UK since 2005 that killed more than the terrorist. So really, I don't see the serious issue.

And cue the "good thing the UK has rational gun control regulations" that is bound to happen.

Ah, so a man butchered in a street in broad daylight isn't interesting enough :-P

Well, I think that it's pretty evident, from what we know at the moment and other plots that have been foiled, that it could be called a terrorist attack:

The target is a soldier - he or men in his regiment will have most probably fought in Afghanistan. BBC were referring to other plots by terrorist suspects that have been foiled, which aimed to capture, behead and film UK troops, in Britain. Sounds similar to this event. The reports of them shouting Admiral Ackbar allahu akbar indicate religious motivation surely concurrent with other terrorist attacks?

I guess the serious issue is that people's lives could at risk just because of their job or even what they choose to wear ( a HfH shirt) Just because successful attacks are infrequent, it doesn't mean there is no problem. There are obviously people in our society actively trying to kill us or our servicemen, due to religious motivations - I'd say that was a problem. Admittedly all this is probably of our own making, but still.

Wadders:

Quaxar:
Are we even sure they said "allahu akbar" and not "Admiral Ackbar"? Not relevant, it would just make the incident more interesting.

What "pretty serious issue" does it highlight? That some people are crazy? Even if you want to call that a terrorist attack (which I'd debate), it would make it the first terror attack in the UK since 2005 that killed more than the terrorist. So really, I don't see the serious issue.

And cue the "good thing the UK has rational gun control regulations" that is bound to happen.

Ah, so a man butchered in a street in broad daylight isn't interesting enough :-P

I just think it would be brilliant if members of the UK's registered Jedi population had turned to the Dark Side, inciting a religious war over the Force.

Wadders:
Well, I think that it's pretty evident, from what we know at the moment and other plots that have been foiled, that it could be called a terrorist attack:

The target is a soldier - he or men in his regiment will have most probably fought in Afghanistan. BBC were referring to other plots by terrorist suspects that have been foiled, which aimed to capture, behead and film UK troops, in Britain. Sounds similar to this event. The reports of them shouting Admiral Ackbar allahu akbar indicate religious motivation surely concurrent with other terrorist attacks?

I thought the beheading thing was years ago, or did I miss a newer story?

Quaxar:

Wadders:

Quaxar:
Are we even sure they said "allahu akbar" and not "Admiral Ackbar"? Not relevant, it would just make the incident more interesting.

What "pretty serious issue" does it highlight? That some people are crazy? Even if you want to call that a terrorist attack (which I'd debate), it would make it the first terror attack in the UK since 2005 that killed more than the terrorist. So really, I don't see the serious issue.

And cue the "good thing the UK has rational gun control regulations" that is bound to happen.

Ah, so a man butchered in a street in broad daylight isn't interesting enough :-P

I just think it would be brilliant if members of the UK's registered Jedi population had turned to the Dark Side, inciting a religious war over the Force.

That would be awesome. I'd gladly give up Uni for a black cape and a red light saber.

Wadders:
Well, I think that it's pretty evident, from what we know at the moment and other plots that have been foiled, that it could be called a terrorist attack:

The target is a soldier - he or men in his regiment will have most probably fought in Afghanistan. BBC were referring to other plots by terrorist suspects that have been foiled, which aimed to capture, behead and film UK troops, in Britain. Sounds similar to this event. The reports of them shouting Admiral Ackbar allahu akbar indicate religious motivation surely concurrent with other terrorist attacks?

I thought the beheading thing was years ago, or did I miss a newer story?

I don't know mate I'm just going off what I've watched and heard on BBc over the last hour or so. I think the contributor was talking about a number of terror trials that have recently come to a conclusion, which related to similar plots. I know there was a recent one in Birmingham where bombing suspects were identified by their cars which were un-insured, but as far as planned beheadings go I'm not sure. They did reference the planned filming of beheading on the news though, with the implication they were recent. I'll look it up properly soon :)

EDIT: Yeah you're right, the guys in the beheading plot were sentenced in 2008. Cant see anything like that since.

So clearly we must ban assault swords.

That aside, wow. That's just crazy and sadly the two won't get the death penalty though they've earned it at this point. Wonder how the government will react to this.

Xan Krieger:
So clearly we must ban assault swords.

That aside, wow. That's just crazy and sadly the two won't get the death penalty though they've earned it at this point. Wonder how the government will react to this.

The death penalty solves nothing though does it really. Death means nothing to people like this. Remember how they like to blow themselves up? Yeah. Apparently the two in this case brandished their sword thingy at the police and approached them. The police being armed with rifles.

They'd welcome death, and we'd make them martyrs, just like they want.

I will say that this article makes me appreciate the US muslim population more. They don't pull crazy crap like this (as far as I know).

EDIT: Ah crap I just realized that technically the boston bombing was done by muslims. I have a hard time identifying Chechnians as Muslims.

Ryotknife:
I will say that this article makes me appreciate the US muslim population more. They don't pull crazy crap like this (as far as I know)

Nope, Muslims in the US had integrated into US society better then almost any non-European group ever, up until 9/11, but that wasn't their fault.

Ryotknife:
I will say that this article makes me appreciate the US muslim population more. They don't pull crazy crap like this (as far as I know).

EDIT: Ah crap I just realized that technically the boston bombing was done by muslims. I have a hard time identifying Chechnians as Muslims.

But, this attack wasn't committed by the UK's Muslim population, just like the Boston Bombing wasn't committed by the US's Muslim population, both attacks were committed by individuals who happen to be Muslim.

I guess this means the government is going to try and push through some stupid anti-terror legislation in a typical knee-jerk fashion, even though this is the first "terrorist" attack in several years. And I'm not even sure if it qualifies as terrorism yet because so far it just looks like two morons with a knife.

Should it really be called a terrorist attack?
The victim was a soldier after all.

Firstly, I hope this is the correct place for this, given that it's probably a terrorist attack...

Uh, is it? Two crazy assholes killed someone. Sad, but not uncommon. If every religiously-motivated murder counted as a terrorist attack we'd be on full terrorist alert all the time. Or does it only count as terrorism if they're Muslims?

boots:

Firstly, I hope this is the correct place for this, given that it's probably a terrorist attack...

Uh, is it? Two crazy assholes killed someone. Sad, but not uncommon. If every religiously-motivated murder counted as a terrorist attack we'd be on full terrorist alert all the time. Or does it only count as terrorism if they're Muslims?

I'm not sure any more, or at least not as sure as I was when I made the OP.

It's being presented as such by UK government and news outlets. Admittedly, there are many similarities between this and other plots, despite the seemingly more spontaneous nature.

However, I'll concede they do seem to be very, very keen to stress that it is terror related, almost to the point where it's suspicious. Furthermore, to carry out something this brutal, I'd say that whether "terrorist" or not, there's a strong possibility you'd be mentally ill in the first place...

I will stand by what I said (or at least implied, even though I was just paraphrasing news reports) that it does seem to be an attack of that nature. The fact it wasn't a bomb or a massive plot doesn't preclude it from being an act of terrorism, surely? It certainly carries a lot of shock value, always useful if you're a terrorist, and talking to cameras about your political agenda then waiting around for the police to show up before having a go at them too probably isnt the behavior of your average psychopathic duo.

http://www.itv.com/news/update/2013-05-22/exclusive-video-man-with-bloodied-hands-speaks-at-woolwich-scene/

I just hope this doesn't incite more violence either by "inspiring" other radicals to attack or some right wing nutter to randomly attack anyone who "looked dodgy", but was in fact innocent.

Realitycrash:
The problem is that many people that are 'immigrating' today that are from the middle-east aren't really 'immigrating'. They are fleeing, and being granted asylum. Turning them down isn't something that's always a humane option.

Sure, they should be granted asylum, but why here?

That's not just NIMBYism. Asylum seekers from the middle east pass through a dozen countries to get to the UK. Many of those countries would be culturally better matches for these immigrants.

Wadders:

boots:

Firstly, I hope this is the correct place for this, given that it's probably a terrorist attack...

Uh, is it? Two crazy assholes killed someone. Sad, but not uncommon. If every religiously-motivated murder counted as a terrorist attack we'd be on full terrorist alert all the time. Or does it only count as terrorism if they're Muslims?

I'm not sure any more, or at least not as sure as I was when I made the OP.

It's being presented as such by UK government and news outlets. Admittedly, there are many similarities between this and other plots, despite the seemingly more spontaneous nature.

However, I'll concede they do seem to be very, very keen to stress that it is terror related, almost to the point where it's suspicious. Furthermore, to carry out something this brutal, I'd say that whether "terrorist" or not, there's a strong possibility you'd be mentally ill in the first place...

I will stand by what I said (or at least implied, even though I was just paraphrasing news reports) that it does seem to be an attack of that nature. The fact it wasn't a bomb or a massive plot doesn't preclude it from being an act of terrorism, surely? It certainly carries a lot of shock value, always useful if you're a terrorist, and talking to cameras about your political agenda then waiting around for the police to show up before having a go at them too probably isnt the behavior of your average psychopathic duo.

http://www.itv.com/news/update/2013-05-22/exclusive-video-man-with-bloodied-hands-speaks-at-woolwich-scene/

yeah the fact one of them gave a brief manifesto to the camera to justify what they did, to tell people to remove the british government and then waited around and attacked police says to me they were looking to be religious martyrs. from the faw footage it ticks off everything id class as a terrorist act.

ill make a guess that the mosque they attended will have extremist texts in its bookshop, and is partially funded by saudi interests.

i did raise an eyebrow about the "of muslim appearance" comment though. footage showed one of them was a big black guy wearing a parka and a black beanie

Batou667:

Realitycrash:
The problem is that many people that are 'immigrating' today that are from the middle-east aren't really 'immigrating'. They are fleeing, and being granted asylum. Turning them down isn't something that's always a humane option.

Sure, they should be granted asylum, but why here?

That's not just NIMBYism. Asylum seekers from the middle east pass through a dozen countries to get to the UK. Many of those countries would be culturally better matches for these immigrants.

Sigh.

As an example: http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/imm_asy_see-immigration-asylum-seekers - UK is in the top for political asylum, but right next to them? Germany and the US.
And people DO immigrate or seek asylum in other, nearby countries. Most likely, they do that BEFORE they flee. Because they have families and friends there. But we don't have good statistics on those simply because they do not register as asylum seekers.

Edit: http://tribune.com.pk/story/322325/five-million-illegal-immigrants-residing-in-pakistan/ Just picked a nation at random. Pakistan? Estimated 5 million illegal immigrants. That's not counting the legal ones.

wombat_of_war:

Wadders:

boots:

Uh, is it? Two crazy assholes killed someone. Sad, but not uncommon. If every religiously-motivated murder counted as a terrorist attack we'd be on full terrorist alert all the time. Or does it only count as terrorism if they're Muslims?

I'm not sure any more, or at least not as sure as I was when I made the OP.

It's being presented as such by UK government and news outlets. Admittedly, there are many similarities between this and other plots, despite the seemingly more spontaneous nature.

However, I'll concede they do seem to be very, very keen to stress that it is terror related, almost to the point where it's suspicious. Furthermore, to carry out something this brutal, I'd say that whether "terrorist" or not, there's a strong possibility you'd be mentally ill in the first place...

I will stand by what I said (or at least implied, even though I was just paraphrasing news reports) that it does seem to be an attack of that nature. The fact it wasn't a bomb or a massive plot doesn't preclude it from being an act of terrorism, surely? It certainly carries a lot of shock value, always useful if you're a terrorist, and talking to cameras about your political agenda then waiting around for the police to show up before having a go at them too probably isnt the behavior of your average psychopathic duo.

http://www.itv.com/news/update/2013-05-22/exclusive-video-man-with-bloodied-hands-speaks-at-woolwich-scene/

yeah the fact one of them gave a brief manifesto to the camera to justify what they did, to tell people to remove the british government and then waited around and attacked police says to me they were looking to be religious martyrs. from the faw footage it ticks off everything id class as a terrorist act.

ill make a guess that the mosque they attended will have extremist texts in its bookshop, and is partially funded by saudi interests.

i did raise an eyebrow about the "of muslim appearance" comment though. footage showed one of them was a big black guy wearing a parka and a black beanie

Not quite sure if you're being sarcastic in the 1st part of your post? Sorry if you're not, I should probably go to bed to be honest :P

Yeah "Muslim appearance" was me paraphrasing the BBC news reporter, who was in turn quoting a witness or something. Still, being Muslim isn't exclusive to people who look Arabic or Middle eastern who wear gowns and turbans. Nonetheless, I agree its a pretty big conclusion to jump to after just seeing a black man. The allahu ackbar shout (if it happened) is a bit more of a giveaway though.

i was pretty shocked at this, i think due to the nature of the killing.
they didnt just stab him, from what ive gatherd they ran him over, hacked his body up, decapitated him (not 100 percent sure on this, witnesses said his head was hanging off) then dumped his body in the street.

the video clip broadcast on the news was deeply disturbing. it showed a black man holding a bloodied meat cleaver in equally bloodied hands.
the man didnt sound foreign, he had a clear london accent.
he rather oddly apologised "I apologise that women have had to witness this today, but in our land our women have to see the same. You people will never be safe."

this has also been quoted from a witness

"We must fight them as they fight us. An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth."
as well as the "allahu akbar"

they sound like religious fanatics that wanted to make as big a scene as possible, i guess they have accomplished that.
the two men are in hospital now after being shot, i honestly feel dissapointed that they didnt die.

I don't understand why people I see talking about it online can't grasp that ANYONE is capable of doing this. These people are NUTTERS. There's nutters in every religion but Muslims seem to get a lot more press and hatred.
Some people are just disgusting and crazy, regardless of religion.

What pisses me off is the amount of people rubbing their hands together gleefully and ranting about how we should "send the Muslims back" or "burn them all" using this as an excuse to spew racist shite. People really start to show their true colours when stuff like this happens.

Also, having a little nosey on my friends FB status... apparently the attack was carried out by two 'wahabis' who are even discredited by Muslims.
I'd look it up some more but I'm off to bed. ;n;

Perhaps we brought these attacks upon ourselves by meddling in the Middle East? But I suppose calling for a retreat due to an increase in terror attacks is a defeatist mentality despite how we've pretty much been defeated...

Wadders:

I guess the serious issue is that people's lives could at risk just because of their job or even what they choose to wear ( a HfH shirt) Just because successful attacks are infrequent, it doesn't mean there is no problem. There are obviously people in our society actively trying to kill us or our servicemen, due to religious motivations - I'd say that was a problem. Admittedly all this is probably of our own making, but still.

People lives were already at risk if you wore something funny in the wrong part of town.

I see that EDL(or claimed to be) have come out using this incident as an excuse for trouble.

Ryotknife:
I will say that this article makes me appreciate the US muslim population more. They don't pull crazy crap like this (as far as I know).

EDIT: Ah crap I just realized that technically the boston bombing was done by muslims. I have a hard time identifying Chechnians as Muslims.

No, never.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fort_Hood_shooting

cahtush:
Should it really be called a terrorist attack?
The victim was a soldier after all.

If the Boston bombers had only killed a few soldiers, would they still be terrorists?

I prefer to conceptualise terrorism as collectivised torture. In this case, the intent of the individuals involved must be ascertained to determine if it was a terrorist attack.

Eh, I bet both of them were gamers.

The only good thing here is that they decided to hang around and wait for the police so they could martyr themselves instead of escaping and doing it again.

Quaxar:

And cue the "good thing the UK has rational gun control regulations" that is bound to happen.

That's the fucked up part the muslims had a pistol too! A GOD DAMN GUN in ENGLAND! Were guns are banned. Have they no shame? They could have just as easily shot that soldier to death, but they wanted to make a statement. What's the point in banning all the guns when Muslims can have all the murderous guns they want?

psijac:

Quaxar:

And cue the "good thing the UK has rational gun control regulations" that is bound to happen.

That's the fucked up part the muslims had a pistol too! A GOD DAMN GUN in ENGLAND! Were guns are banned.

Guns aren't banned in England.

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