British soldier killed in London 'terrorist attack.'

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lowhat:

Ryotknife:
I will say that this article makes me appreciate the US muslim population more. They don't pull crazy crap like this (as far as I know).

EDIT: Ah crap I just realized that technically the boston bombing was done by muslims. I have a hard time identifying Chechnians as Muslims.

No, never.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fort_Hood_shooting

funny enough, that was not labeled as an act of terrorism. Which is kinda strange as we label darn near everything as terrorism.

Wadders:
Apparently
ostensibly Apparently

Try absolutely.
image

I can see this leading to a lot more table thumping by the EDL and BNP and probably UKIP and anyone else of their ilk.'

Oh woest me,
http://barbadosfreepress.wordpress.com/2011/02/23/violent-muslims-beat-uk-teacher-for-teaching-other-religions-to-muslim-girls/
God
http://blog.balder.org/?p=1361
forbid
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2070562/Muslim-girl-gang-kicked-Rhea-Page-head-yelling-kill-white-slag-FREED.html
anyone
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Pages/TheList.htm
feeling angry about mindless savages from the south bringing their bullshit up into their homeland.
I'll happilly post the full video, just incase you're apparently still not learned up on the details of the incident.

J Tyran:
The only good thing here is that they decided to hang around and wait for the police so they could martyr themselves instead of escaping and doing it again.

if only all criminals could do the same! (not martyrdom just wait for the police)
no martyrdom for these two though, unless they die from their injuries.

Well, if you insist on importing troublesome people from troublesome cultures, such is to be expected. Islam, being an extremely socially conservative political and religious world view - conservative about norms which are wholly different from western ones to boot - is bound to create friction.

But eh, the British can run their social contract as they see fit, inviting whomever they want to join. They must of course accept the consequences of such open doors. If you subscribe to an idea that the needs of others fleeing from different social contracts create an obligation for yours to absorb them, don't expect them to leave their conflicts or mindsets at the door.

Of course, some people just view that as an exciting challenge for society to take on... generally people who don't have to live anywhere near these troublesome immigrants, in the several decades before integration could take hold at the best of times. They won't have to shoulder the bill, not with money, and not with blood. It's quite easy to play the good Samaritan when the consequences of it is somebody else's problem, more specifically those who're near the bottom of the lower class.

Didn't the definition of terrorism at some point include something about civilian targets being the victims? Or did we just dispense with that part completely over the last years? Or does this count because the victim wasn't in uniform at the time? Or something?

Skeleon:
Didn't the definition of terrorism at some point include something about civilian targets being the victims? Or did we just dispense with that part completely over the last years? Or does this count because the victim wasn't in uniform at the time? Or something?

It's terrorism.

While part of the Ummah, the attackers aren't part of any recognized army, and the soldier wasn't on active duty anyway. So it's not warfare, and hence an ordinary crime. Which then becomes terrorism if the larger intent is present, as it seems to be.

Wadders:
Firstly, I hope this is the correct place for this, given that it's probably a terrorist attack, I thought R&P was the best place.

This afternoon a British serviceman was attacked and killed near his base in Woolwich. Apparently 2 individuals crashed a car into him, got out of the car and attacked the man with a sword or machete. The victim was wearing a 'Help for Heroes' shirt - a charity that raises money for injured troops.

The two attackers were ostensibly of Muslim appearance, and shouted allahu akbar (god is great) upon killing the man, and then according to reports asked onlookers to take photographs of their deed. Apparently the incident was also filmed.

Police then arrived, and shot the two men, who are now in hospital. The incident is being treated as a terrorist attack.

Pretty crazy huh? I can see this leading to a lot more table thumping by the EDL and BNP and probably UKIP and anyone else of their ilk. The usual kind of thing, about how Muslims are all violent rapists who are destroying British culture and identity and abusing our customs etc. I think it calls for some responsible reporting, but no doubt there will be plenty of sensationalist hype from the media too :(

Still, it does highlight a pretty serious problem in the UK, and of itself is an exceptionally brutal attack.

BBC live: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22630304

Its a butcher's knife.

A machete is the big knife you use to cut down over grown foliage. In fact I have an incredibly old one sitting in storage somewhere, back when we used to deal with sugarcane regularly.

I don't know how the UK can confuse a machete with a butcher's knife. A machete's blade is a long as your forearm.

I didn't even know machetes could be legal in the UK, other than cutting down over grown foliage, or dealing with sugarcane it lacks any use other than a self defense weapon. As far as I know the Uk isn't a dense jungle nor do they eat ton of sugar cane.

JoJo:
Clearly the only people responsible for this crime are the two perpetrators but this sort of attack shows we do really need to work on integrating certain minority groups

How do you integrate extremists when their not even integrated in their own countries? When Shia or Sunni extremists dont kill westerners they kill eachother.

Ultratwinkie:

Its a butcher's knife.

A machete is the big knife you use to cut down over grown foliage. In fact I have an incredibly old one sitting in storage somewhere, back when we used to deal with sugarcane regularly.

I don't know how the UK can confuse a machete with a butcher's knife. A machete's blade is a long as your forearm.

The quote: "Eyewitnesses say two men attacked another man with a "machete-style knife""

Given the UK tamed most of its undergrowth centuries ago, machetes are very rare. Thus it is easy for any one random member of the public to not know what a machete looks like, just understand it's a kind of large, hacking knife.

The other factor is that humans often do not experience things clearly, and even if they do, memories are rather fallible. Consequently, people superimpose assumptions and even make stuff up, to attempt to put an event together in their minds. See someone hacking at a body but not really know what with, they'd might readily describe it any approximate hacking implement. That's why it was variously described as a knife, cleaver, machete, sword, and so on.

Ryotknife:
I will say that this article makes me appreciate the US muslim population more. They don't pull crazy crap like this (as far as I know).

EDIT: Ah crap I just realized that technically the boston bombing was done by muslims. I have a hard time identifying Chechnians as Muslims.

Fort Hood?

Ultratwinkie:

Wadders:
Firstly, I hope this is the correct place for this, given that it's probably a terrorist attack, I thought R&P was the best place.

This afternoon a British serviceman was attacked and killed near his base in Woolwich. Apparently 2 individuals crashed a car into him, got out of the car and attacked the man with a sword or machete. The victim was wearing a 'Help for Heroes' shirt - a charity that raises money for injured troops.

The two attackers were ostensibly of Muslim appearance, and shouted allahu akbar (god is great) upon killing the man, and then according to reports asked onlookers to take photographs of their deed. Apparently the incident was also filmed.

Police then arrived, and shot the two men, who are now in hospital. The incident is being treated as a terrorist attack.

Pretty crazy huh? I can see this leading to a lot more table thumping by the EDL and BNP and probably UKIP and anyone else of their ilk. The usual kind of thing, about how Muslims are all violent rapists who are destroying British culture and identity and abusing our customs etc. I think it calls for some responsible reporting, but no doubt there will be plenty of sensationalist hype from the media too :(

Still, it does highlight a pretty serious problem in the UK, and of itself is an exceptionally brutal attack.

BBC live: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22630304

Its a butcher's knife.

A machete is the big knife you use to cut down over grown foliage. In fact I have an incredibly old one sitting in storage somewhere, back when we used to deal with sugarcane regularly.

I don't know how the UK can confuse a machete with a butcher's knife. A machete's blade is a long as your forearm.

I didn't even know machetes could be legal in the UK, other than cutting down over grown foliage, or dealing with sugarcane it lacks any use other than a self defense weapon. As far as I know the Uk isn't a dense jungle nor do they eat ton of sugar cane.

I know. I have eyes too.

As I've said countless times, my OP was paraphrasing BBC live news reports who were in turn quoting witnesses. At the time of making the OP, details were thin on the ground, and there were a lot of reports of a sword or machete being used. Obviously we now know that is no longer the case. People are prone to exaggerate when giving testimony regarding shocking events like this.

I've amended to OP to avoid confusion, and to prevent myself getting any more patronising messages.

ErwinGodfrey:

Wadders:
Apparently
ostensibly Apparently

Try absolutely.
image

I can see this leading to a lot more table thumping by the EDL and BNP and probably UKIP and anyone else of their ilk.'

Oh woest me,
http://barbadosfreepress.wordpress.com/2011/02/23/violent-muslims-beat-uk-teacher-for-teaching-other-religions-to-muslim-girls/
God
http://blog.balder.org/?p=1361
forbid
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2070562/Muslim-girl-gang-kicked-Rhea-Page-head-yelling-kill-white-slag-FREED.html
anyone
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Pages/TheList.htm
feeling angry about mindless savages from the south bringing their bullshit up into their homeland.
I'll happilly post the full video, just incase you're apparently still not learned up on the details of the incident.

All that tells me is that some Muslims are horrible cunts. However, being a horrible cunt is not exclusive to Islam.

I can't believe I'm actually having to explain this to you, but not every Muslim interprets their religion in such a radical and barbaric way as the 2 men involved in this incident, or those involved in your news reports.

Yes, I too am angry that this has happened, but brutal murders occur day in day out, and this particular incident should not lead to people tarring Muslims in Britain with the same brush as these 2 men. That is what the EDL and their supporters do.

thaluikhain:

psijac:

Quaxar:

And cue the "good thing the UK has rational gun control regulations" that is bound to happen.

That's the fucked up part the muslims had a pistol too! A GOD DAMN GUN in ENGLAND! Were guns are banned.

Guns aren't banned in England.

YES, THANK YOU! :D As a gun owner it riles me so much when people say that. We just have strict regulation.

Handguns however, are banned for civilian use. I think it was a handgun which was being brandished in this case.

Wadders:
I can't believe I'm actually having to explain this to you, but not every Muslim interprets their religion in such a radical and barbaric way as the 2 men involved in this incident, or those involved in your news reports.

Yes, I too am angry that this has happened, but brutal murders occur day in day out, and this particular incident should not lead to people tarring Muslims in Britain with the same brush as these 2 men. That is what the EDL and their supporters do.

Exactly. Going on a slight tangent, if a Muslim man killed his wife because she was cheating on him, that'd be said to be because of some tribal thing, honour killing etc. However, the same thing happened to a WASP, and it's "just" domestic violence. A lot less soapboxes are deployed.

Imperator_DK:
Well, if you insist on importing troublesome people from troublesome cultures, such is to be expected. Islam, being an extremely socially conservative political and religious world view - conservative about norms which are wholly different from western ones to boot - is bound to create friction.

But eh, the British can run their social contract as they see fit, inviting whomever they want to join. They must of course accept the consequences of such open doors. If you subscribe to an idea that the needs of others fleeing from different social contracts create an obligation for yours to absorb them, don't expect them to leave their conflicts or mindsets at the door.

Of course, some people just view that as an exciting challenge for society to take on... generally people who don't have to live anywhere near these troublesome immigrants, in the several decades before integration could take hold at the best of times. They won't have to shoulder the bill, not with money, and not with blood. It's quite easy to play the good Samaritan when the consequences of it is somebody else's problem, more specifically those who're near the bottom of the lower class.

How different Denmark is in that regard? Muslims make up about the same portion of the population in Denmark as they do in the UK, and for the most part i would dare to say that they are much less integrated into the society in Denmark than in the UK.

Wadders:

Xan Krieger:
So clearly we must ban assault swords.

That aside, wow. That's just crazy and sadly the two won't get the death penalty though they've earned it at this point. Wonder how the government will react to this.

The death penalty solves nothing though does it really. Death means nothing to people like this. Remember how they like to blow themselves up? Yeah. Apparently the two in this case brandished their sword thingy at the police and approached them. The police being armed with rifles.

They'd welcome death, and we'd make them martyrs, just like they want.

So you arrest them, disappear them and put a nice bullet into the back of each of their heads.

Certainly cheaper to spend a dollar on a pair of high calibre bullets than to pay out to keep their useless asses alive.

thaluikhain:

psijac:

Quaxar:

And cue the "good thing the UK has rational gun control regulations" that is bound to happen.

That's the fucked up part the muslims had a pistol too! A GOD DAMN GUN in ENGLAND! Were guns are banned.

Guns aren't banned in England.

Nope but pretty soon knives will be after this! Enjoy eating everything with particularly dull spoons!

Edit: quote went all weird

Desert Punk:

Wadders:

Xan Krieger:
So clearly we must ban assault swords.

That aside, wow. That's just crazy and sadly the two won't get the death penalty though they've earned it at this point. Wonder how the government will react to this.

The death penalty solves nothing though does it really. Death means nothing to people like this. Remember how they like to blow themselves up? Yeah. Apparently the two in this case brandished their sword thingy at the police and approached them. The police being armed with rifles.

They'd welcome death, and we'd make them martyrs, just like they want.

So you arrest them, disappear them and put a nice bullet into the back of each of their heads.

Certainly cheaper to spend a dollar on a pair of high calibre bullets than to pay out to keep their useless asses alive.

Oh yes, because that's a reasonable solution that doesn't violate any kind of laws or basic human rights...

Aside from that, they're more use alive than dead, if they can tell police about their motives and such, we can learn more about these people and how we might be able to fight them in the future.

The death penalty is a whole different kettle of fish, but I'll say it again; it solves nothing, and serves no purpose other than to bring the law down to the same level as the perpetrator just for the sake of some fleeting, bloodthirsty revenge.

Wadders:

Desert Punk:

Wadders:
The death penalty solves nothing though does it really. Death means nothing to people like this. Remember how they like to blow themselves up? Yeah. Apparently the two in this case brandished their sword thingy at the police and approached them. The police being armed with rifles.

They'd welcome death, and we'd make them martyrs, just like they want.

So you arrest them, disappear them and put a nice bullet into the back of each of their heads.

Certainly cheaper to spend a dollar on a pair of high calibre bullets than to pay out to keep their useless asses alive.

Oh yes, because that's a reasonable solution that doesn't violate any kind of laws or basic human rights...

Aside from that, they're more use alive than dead, if they can tell police about their motives and such, we can learn more about these people and how we might be able to fight them in the future.

The death penalty is a whole different kettle of fish, but I'll say it again; it solves nothing, and serves no purpose other than to bring the law down to the same level as the perpetrator just for the sake of some fleeting, bloodthirsty revenge.

I was referring to AFTER their trial/questioning/interrogation ect. it avoids their being a martyr with a public execution if they are just...gone after their trial, no muss, no fuss.

And it serves a much greater purpose than "blood thirsty revenge"

You tell me, what one is cheaper, the 22,000 dollars a year to keep some butcher alive for life? Or 1 dollar for a 9mm bullet (at civilian cost, much cheaper for government purchase).

Then again there are those who whimper over even the thought of a person who hacks someone to death in a street ever being harmed, but I just laugh at those people.

Desert Punk:
I was referring to AFTER their trial/questioning/interrogation ect. it avoids their being a martyr with a public execution if they are just...gone after their trial, no muss, no fuss.

And it serves a much greater purpose than "blood thirsty revenge"

You tell me, what one is cheaper, the 22,000 dollars a year to keep some butcher alive for life? Or 1 dollar for a 9mm bullet (at civilian cost, much cheaper for government purchase).

Then again there are those who whimper over even the thought of a person who hacks someone to death in a street ever being harmed, but I just laugh at those people.

Disappeared? After a trial in which the judge orders them disappeared? What's the point?

And, the US has tried the death penalty, and it hasn't worked there. Why would the UK do better?

Verbatim:
...
How different Denmark is in that regard? Muslims make up about the same portion of the population in Denmark as they do in the UK, and for the most part i would dare to say that they are much less integrated into the society in Denmark than in the UK.

Not different enough.

Though at least the problem is being discussed, so there's hope it'll be addressed. Norway recently found out that on average each and every non-western immigrant cost it about $ 700,000 total over a lifetime, so maybe it too will soon realize that a welfare state is incompatible with open borders. The UK solution seem to be to demolish the welfare state instead.

I'm not really sure Danish Muslim are less integrated than UK ones - there might be some crime statistics which could highlight it - but with their absolute numbers being so small, they don't pose the same problem. While ghetto's exist, there simply aren't enough to not come into contact with the surrounding society.

...besides, not all "integration" is good. If Muslims with illiberal views integrate better in the UK, maybe it's because the UK is more illiberal? Or at least more willing to compromise on western values?

Desert Punk:

Wadders:

Desert Punk:

So you arrest them, disappear them and put a nice bullet into the back of each of their heads.

Certainly cheaper to spend a dollar on a pair of high calibre bullets than to pay out to keep their useless asses alive.

Oh yes, because that's a reasonable solution that doesn't violate any kind of laws or basic human rights...

Aside from that, they're more use alive than dead, if they can tell police about their motives and such, we can learn more about these people and how we might be able to fight them in the future.

The death penalty is a whole different kettle of fish, but I'll say it again; it solves nothing, and serves no purpose other than to bring the law down to the same level as the perpetrator just for the sake of some fleeting, bloodthirsty revenge.

I was referring to AFTER their trial/questioning/interrogation ect. it avoids their being a martyr with a public execution if they are just...gone after their trial, no muss, no fuss.

And it serves a much greater purpose than "blood thirsty revenge"

You tell me, what one is cheaper, the 22,000 dollars a year to keep some butcher alive for life? Or 1 dollar for a 9mm bullet (at civilian cost, much cheaper for government purchase).

Then again there are those who whimper over even the thought of a person who hacks someone to death in a street ever being harmed, but I just laugh at those people.

I can see where you're coming from, and I certainly wont shed a tear if either of these men die of their wounds in hospital, or if they were killed outright by Police on the scene.

This is going off-topic, but hey. Yes it would certainly be cheaper just to kill them. Although I doubt they would be shot - a lethal injection might be more likely, less mess :P

However, I just don't see how killing someone in cold blood is ethical in any way. The police shot them, I assume, because they felt they presented a risk to the nearby civilians or the police themselves, so fair enough. However in a cell they are no risk to anyone, and the money spent on keeping them alive is a drop in the ocean when compared to how much our government wastes on other useless shit. I'd say that's a price worth paying for a clean conscience.

Of course that is my view on capital punishment generally, and you're more than welcome to yours, but like most debates on here it will probably go no-where and isn't really relevant to the topic at hand, so I'll leave it there.

thaluikhain:

Desert Punk:
I was referring to AFTER their trial/questioning/interrogation ect. it avoids their being a martyr with a public execution if they are just...gone after their trial, no muss, no fuss.

And it serves a much greater purpose than "blood thirsty revenge"

You tell me, what one is cheaper, the 22,000 dollars a year to keep some butcher alive for life? Or 1 dollar for a 9mm bullet (at civilian cost, much cheaper for government purchase).

Then again there are those who whimper over even the thought of a person who hacks someone to death in a street ever being harmed, but I just laugh at those people.

Disappeared? After a trial in which the judge orders them disappeared? What's the point?

And, the US has tried the death penalty, and it hasn't worked there. Why would the UK do better?

Also: this.

Imperator_DK:

Verbatim:
...
How different Denmark is in that regard? Muslims make up about the same portion of the population in Denmark as they do in the UK, and for the most part i would dare to say that they are much less integrated into the society in Denmark than in the UK.

Not different enough.

Though at least the problem is being discussed, so there's hope it'll be addressed. Norway recently found out that on average each and every non-western immigrant cost it about $ 700,000 total over a lifetime, so maybe it too will soon realize that a welfare state is incompatible with open borders. The UK solution seem to be to demolish the welfare state instead.

I'm not really sure Danish Muslim are less integrated than UK ones - there might be some crime statistics which could highlight it - but with their absolute numbers being so small, they don't pose the same problem. While ghetto's exist, there simply aren't enough to not come into contact with the surrounding society.

...besides, not all "integration" is good. If Muslims with illiberal views integrate better in the UK, maybe it's because the UK is more illiberal? Or at least more willing to compromise on western values?

200-250K in a country of 5.5M people is not small numbers...
As for the integration part, a large portion of the UK Muslim community is of a Pakistani or Bangladeshi origin, the majority of them immigrated into the UK in the 70's, them as the vast majority of the rest of the immigrants(Muslim and non-Muslim alike) came as migrant workers. Whilst in Demnark the majority of Danish Muslims are from Iraq, Gaza and the West Bank, and other places that came under a "refugee" visa.

Both the "cause" of immigration, and the origins of the immigrants make it's a worse case for Denmark(if you want to go there), much more strict and extreme forms of Islam combined with very volatile political background, while the UK gets much more "mild" immigrants for the most part from former colonies.

The general reaction from the British public which I've seen has largely been very inspiring - rising above anger and hatred, and choosing to show respect for the soldier and quell any general racism which has appeared as a reaction to the incident.

Also, piss funny that some dickhead with a few hand weapons thinks that he's gonna bother a nation which sang through the Nazi blitzs.

Imperator_DK:

Verbatim:
...
How different Denmark is in that regard? Muslims make up about the same portion of the population in Denmark as they do in the UK, and for the most part i would dare to say that they are much less integrated into the society in Denmark than in the UK.

Not different enough.

Though at least the problem is being discussed, so there's hope it'll be addressed. Norway recently found out that on average each and every non-western immigrant cost it about $ 700,000 total over a lifetime, so maybe it too will soon realize that a welfare state is incompatible with open borders. The UK solution seem to be to demolish the welfare state instead.

Interesting. Got a source? And how much does a western-immigrant cost?

Congratulations everyone, we made it to page 2 before the human rights violation demands kicked off. It's getting better!

Desert Punk:
Nope but pretty soon knives will be after this! Enjoy eating everything with particularly dull spoons!

Uh, considering how rampant knife attacks are in the UK I don't see how this one incident should affect it significantly.

Imperator_DK:
Well, if you insist on importing troublesome people from troublesome cultures, such is to be expected. Islam, being an extremely socially conservative political and religious world view - conservative about norms which are wholly different from western ones to boot - is bound to create friction.

But eh, the British can run their social contract as they see fit, inviting whomever they want to join. They must of course accept the consequences of such open doors. If you subscribe to an idea that the needs of others fleeing from different social contracts create an obligation for yours to absorb them, don't expect them to leave their conflicts or mindsets at the door.

Of course, some people just view that as an exciting challenge for society to take on... generally people who don't have to live anywhere near these troublesome immigrants, in the several decades before integration could take hold at the best of times. They won't have to shoulder the bill, not with money, and not with blood. It's quite easy to play the good Samaritan when the consequences of it is somebody else's problem, more specifically those who're near the bottom of the lower class.

are we sure these men were immigrants? they didn't sound it.
and how relevant is immigration in this instance? (I'm sure it is by the way) but this seems to me to be more of a radical Islamic issue, is there more evidence to suggest that immigration and radical Islam are more closely connected?

speaking of immigration....
The police were looking for about ten illegal immigrants today around where I work, they had the helicopter out too.
looks like they hid in the back of a lorry that crossed the channel at Calais in France, then made a run for it once the lorry stopped over here.

Imperator_DK:

Though at least the problem is being discussed, so there's hope it'll be addressed. Norway recently found out that on average each and every non-western immigrant cost it about $ 700,000 total over a lifetime, so maybe it too will soon realize that a welfare state is incompatible with open borders. The UK solution seem to be to demolish the welfare state instead.

Well, no.

Firstly, studies exist assessing the impact of immigration on the British economy, and find them largely positive, possibly unlike Norway.

Why? Well, we could look at benefits: the UK is considerably more stingy than Norway, which means it pays out rather less in the first place. The second factor is to consider why immigrants come to the UK compared to other countries. The UK receives a relatively small proportion of asylum seeking immigrants, who can receive benefits. The majority are economic migrants both capable and eager to take a job - not least because they're not entitled to welfare (or not until they've been employed enough years anyway).

The current UK government is indeed attacking the welfare state, but overwhelmingly for reasons of neoliberal ideology rather than immigrant worries.

...besides, not all "integration" is good. If Muslims with illiberal views integrate better in the UK, maybe it's because the UK is more illiberal? Or at least more willing to compromise on western values?

Ooh, more UK-bashing. Quite the habit you've got there. Here's another possibility: perhaps the Danes really are as racist as they are popularly reputed to be, and this inhibits integration.

thaluikhain:

Wadders:
I can't believe I'm actually having to explain this to you, but not every Muslim interprets their religion in such a radical and barbaric way as the 2 men involved in this incident, or those involved in your news reports.

Yes, I too am angry that this has happened, but brutal murders occur day in day out, and this particular incident should not lead to people tarring Muslims in Britain with the same brush as these 2 men. That is what the EDL and their supporters do.

Exactly. Going on a slight tangent, if a Muslim man killed his wife because she was cheating on him, that'd be said to be because of some tribal thing, honour killing etc. However, the same thing happened to a WASP, and it's "just" domestic violence. A lot less soapboxes are deployed.

Isn't "honor-killing" more often descriptive of fathers or brothers killing the women of their families for various reasons, not as much husbands?

Desert Punk:

Then again there are those who whimper over even the thought of a person who hacks someone to death in a street ever being harmed, but I just laugh at those people.

That's fine. You carry on laughing at such people, and the law will carry on ignoring you and others who call for capital punishment. I'm happy with that situation.

Desert Punk:

So you arrest them, disappear them and put a nice bullet into the back of each of their heads.

Certainly cheaper to spend a dollar on a pair of high calibre bullets than to pay out to keep their useless asses alive.

Doesn't matter if you 'disappear' them, Allah would still see them being martyred for their cause and reward them. They still get what they want.

That's why we should lock them up for the rest of their lives. It's not a martyrdom if you die of old age or commit suicide and take nobody with you. They are denied their ultimate goal and it shows other extremists that we wont martyr them.

Realitycrash:
...
Interesting. Got a source? And how much does a western-immigrant cost?

Here's one in Norwegian, with reference to the original article.

According to page 40 of the original article, each eastern European immigrant on average costs Norway $ 135,000 while each western European immigrant on average contributes $ 135,000 during their stay. A lot of this difference is due to both western and eastern Europeans having better educations and countries worth returning to when they retire, but ultimately the cultural differences cost something as well.

And then there's the price that's not in money, but in friction, which isn't even considered in this graph. Nor by those who decide immigration policy, as they live at a comfortable distance from it (...as do I, though I'm not one to dismiss the dismiss the very real concerns experienced by the lower class as them simply being "racist"). There's not reason to actively aim to absorb burdensome people from poor and defunct social contracts into strong and efficient ones, even if they were culturally compatible. To collect poor Muslims is to collect failures.

Agema:
...
Well, no.

Firstly, studies exist assessing the impact of immigration on the British economy, and find them largely positive, possibly unlike Norway.

Why? Well, we could look at benefits: the UK is considerably more stingy than Norway, which means it pays out rather less in the first place. The second factor is to consider why immigrants come to the UK compared to other countries. The UK receives a relatively small proportion of asylum seeking immigrants, who can receive benefits. The majority are economic migrants both capable and eager to take a job - not least because they're not entitled to welfare (or not until they've been employed enough years anyway).

And this counters the notion that a welfare state is incompatible with nigh-unlimited immigration... how?

Ooh, more UK-bashing. Quite the habit you've got there. Here's another possibility: perhaps the Danes really are as racist as they are popularly reputed to be, and this inhibits integration.

Quite a nationalistic habit you got there too, as it takes little but mentioning the UK in a negative light to grind your gears. I'd invite the members of the forum to go back and look at how your attitude and willingness to engage me on various subjects become much more aggressive when I started focusing on the more appalling aspects of UK, but realistically it'd be too much trouble.

And considering that the UK is a nation that outright punishes "incitement to religious hatred" - i.e. harsh criticism of religion - I'd certainly hope that Danes are "racist" by its absurdly extensive use of the term.

thaluikhain:

Wadders:
I can't believe I'm actually having to explain this to you, but not every Muslim interprets their religion in such a radical and barbaric way as the 2 men involved in this incident, or those involved in your news reports.

Yes, I too am angry that this has happened, but brutal murders occur day in day out, and this particular incident should not lead to people tarring Muslims in Britain with the same brush as these 2 men. That is what the EDL and their supporters do.

Exactly. Going on a slight tangent, if a Muslim man killed his wife because she was cheating on him, that'd be said to be because of some tribal thing, honour killing etc. However, the same thing happened to a WASP, and it's "just" domestic violence. A lot less soapboxes are deployed.

Funny, how some people would choose to distinguish between an act motivated by religious orthodoxy viewed as legitimate by millions, and an act motivated by solo nbuttery. Apples to apples, really. They must be raciss.

ErwinGodfrey:
Gee I wonder when was the last time a solder was executed in public during the day? Also I can't believe I'm actually having to explain what an average is. You see, it doesn't matter if I know a Christian who murdered his wife, or you know a Muslim who's the kindest chap in the world, on average a Muslim is more likely to be involved in such barbaricism in England than people of other faiths. I'm sorry, but I'm struggling to see any benefit of allowing Muslims to immigrate in such numbers to England when they're so often innvolved in violent crime. All though this incident does show how pasionate Muslims are about women, considering one of the first words out of the man's mouth was "I'm sorry women had to see that".

It's almost beautiful how if you replace Muslim with Irish this post would still work perfectly during the troubles.

ErwinGodfrey:

Wadders:
All that tells me is that some Muslims are horrible cunts. However, being a horrible cunt is not exclusive to Islam.

I can't believe I'm actually having to explain this to you, but not every Muslim interprets their religion in such a radical and barbaric way as the 2 men involved in this incident, or those involved in your news reports.

Yes, I too am angry that this has happened, but brutal murders occur day in day out, and this particular incident should not lead to people tarring Muslims in Britain with the same brush as these 2 men. That is what the EDL and their supporters do.

Gee I wonder when was the last time a solder was executed in public during the day? Also I can't believe I'm actually having to explain what an average is. You see, it doesn't matter if I know a Christian who murdered his wife, or you know a Muslim who's the kindest chap in the world, on average a Muslim is more likely to be involved in such barbaricism in England than people of other faiths.I'm sorry, but I'm struggling to see any benefit of allowing Muslims to immigrate in such numbers to England when they're so often innvolved in violent crime. All though this incident does show how pasionate Muslims are about women, considering one of the first words out of the man's mouth was "I'm sorry women had to see that".

Still, it does highlight a pretty serious problem in the UK

Which is what? People getting angry at your poor oppressed muhamadens?

What? Give me statistics, a credible source. Then I'll believe you. At the moment you're just coming across as bigoted. I hate extremist Muslims as much as the next person, but you cant generalize like that without evidence. I understand how Islam is a pretty conservative religion with some archaic values, but I don't see how on average that leads to ordinary Muslims being more likely to kill people by hacking them to bits on a street? Like I said, most Muslims reject the extreme interpretations of their religion that lead to Jihad type killings like this, or honour killings etc.

By the way, call me pedantic the word is barbarism, not barbaricism.

Re. your point about women: I'm not even sure what you're trying to say, your point is really not clear at all. They're passionate about women? So am I. Women are pretty good.

I'll admit that letting a lot of Muslims in causes problems, but letting a lot of any type of person in causes problems. Yes some of them will bring their medieval values and conflicts with them, but there's plenty of benefits too. They helped the economy, they have tasty food, and they generally make the UK a more interesting place. Having people around from other cultures is cool, as long as they obey the law which the vast majority seem to.

I dont even know what the fuck a muhamaden is, but I'm guessing it's a synonym for Muslims. I'd hardly say they were oppressed, only by a few nutters such as yourself who seem to think that the entirely of the UK Muslim community is evil.

Karma168:
Doesn't matter if you 'disappear' them, Allah would still see them being martyred for their cause and reward them. They still get what they want.

The martyrdom and the 100 virgins in heaven or whatever is primarily not the reason why people do things like this. It might give them an easy excuse or a way to satisfy their consciences, but it's not the primary reason, and it's dangerous to think it is, because then you're not considering many of the sensible things we might be able to do to combat incidences such as this.

The primary driving force behind things like this seems to be more political; young and naive people who've been indoctrinated into a political ideology, who perceive persecution, who perceive injustice, who maybe even want to change the world for the better, but are deluded by what can apparently be a very compelling ideology. And the way to combat these atrocities is to challenge the ideology, to fund groups in the Muslim community who can present a compelling moderate narrative to people who might otherwise become radicalised, and things like this.

Question Time is usually an awful slanging match of rhetoric, but tonight's was excellent, totally rational and right on the mark. If you're in the UK you can watch it on iPlayer. It was filmed in Belfast, which of course has seen more than its share of Christian extremism/terrorism in recent decades.

It is difficult for us to understand Islamist terror in the same way that we could understand Irish Republican or Unionist terror, simply because most of us don't know the first thing about Islam, whereas we do know quite a lot about Christianity due to it being taught more in our schools and the trickle down effect from living in a culture that has Christian origins.

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