Is God Good?

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Shadowstar38:

Realitycrash:

Big_Willie_Styles:
The concept of Theodicy. Took a class on that in college. Intriguing concept, yes.

God gave man free will. By in so doing, He will not intervene unless He sees it necessary to invoke His wrath or His grace.

...So, whenever it suits him?

To the same extent that heads of states go to war "whenever it suits them". Though I'd expect an omnipotent being to have solid justification that man wouldn't.

Another good question: What defines Omnipotency? Can he violate the laws of logic? Can he Be and Not Be at the same time?

If you're asking what verses Christians use to support him being good, then it is likely they are referencing Mark 10:18. After that, they don't believe they need any other explanation and that any definition of "good" will be seen in God's character. As for why some Christians don't bother to question it further (though some do), it probably has something to do with the Bible's tendency to harshly rebuke anyone who questions God's character or motive, as seen towards the end of Job and in Romans 9.

As for my own views, I think an element of healthy skepticism is necessary whenever you are dealing with matters of spirituality (or the lack thereof). In relation to the Bible, how can we really tell if God is good or not (assuming he exists) when he doesn't even bother to explain some of the less-than-flattering sides to his nature? I've heard some Christians give rather decent arguments to why that is--generally focusing on the lack of understanding we have compared to God, and therefore being incapable of understanding it even if the Bible explained it--but it still can be unsatisfying when all we have are offhanded dismissals.

Realitycrash:

Another good question: What defines Omnipotency?

I tend to view the Bible's claims to God's omnipotency to be made under the assumption that he is above all and will forever remain above all. Power always has to be in relation to something. A ruler has no power if there is no one to rule over. A killer has no power over his victim if his victim is better at defending himself than the killer is at killing him. For God to be "omnipotent" that means that there is nothing that can ever rise to a power above his own. This makes more sense if you hold to certain Calvinist views of his sovereignty (i.e. that he is sovereign over all, even man's "free" will).

Realitycrash:

Angelblaze:

Realitycrash:

...So, whenever it suits him?

Nice job pulling only the things you want outta that one. Very well done.

How exactly am I supposed to take " He will not intervene unless He sees it necessary to invoke His wrath or His grace." in any other fashion? GIVE me another interpretation than 'when it suits him'.

When the need for his intervention arises and there is no other way to fix/restore what was done.

Realitycrash:

Shadowstar38:

Realitycrash:

...So, whenever it suits him?

To the same extent that heads of states go to war "whenever it suits them". Though I'd expect an omnipotent being to have solid justification that man wouldn't.

Another good question: What defines Omnipotency? Can he violate the laws of logic? Can he Be and Not Be at the same time?

(Sorry for double quote)
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/omnipotency

I'm afraid both you and I are out of luck if you want a better definition as what God does (miracle or disaster) could possibly be inexplicable dumb luck, henceforth; we don't know exactly how strong God is (with the exception of what the bible tells us) because we can't correct ascertain what is human intervention, god-through-human intervention or purely god based-intervention.

But if we use the concept stated above then....
Yes, one could assume that he could violate the laws of what could be seen as humanly, logically, mentally and physically possible and part of my theory to his existence actually (arguably) requires that he is and is not at the same time, HOWEVER as the same with the omnipotency question what makes up what is humanly, logically, mentally (etc) possible is again a very difficult question to answer.

Angelblaze:

Realitycrash:

Shadowstar38:

To the same extent that heads of states go to war "whenever it suits them". Though I'd expect an omnipotent being to have solid justification that man wouldn't.

Another good question: What defines Omnipotency? Can he violate the laws of logic? Can he Be and Not Be at the same time?

(Sorry for double quote)
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/omnipotency

I'm afraid both you and I are out of luck if you want a better definition as what God does (miracle or disaster) could possibly be inexplicable dumb luck, henceforth; we don't know exactly how strong God is (with the exception of what the bible tells us) because we can't correct ascertain what is human intervention, god-through-human intervention or purely god based-intervention.

But if we use the concept stated above then....
Yes, one could assume that he could violate the laws of what could be seen as humanly, logically, mentally and physically possible and part of my theory to his existence actually (arguably) requires that he is and is not at the same time, HOWEVER as the same with the omnipotency question what makes up what is humanly, logically, mentally (etc) possible is again a very difficult question to answer.

Well, if the Jews were to be believed (Old Testament), only the prophets could gaze upon god and live as he was beyond human comprehension. As such some would theorize that he does indeed break our laws and the bible is evidence of that (People died by looking at him) He was simply so great looking that it was outright lethal.

That mixed with him being a lover. It's a deadly-ass cocktail. And kind of sad for him, he can't even show himself to his fans at the risk of all of them melting from all his greatness.

Nikolaz72:

Angelblaze:

Realitycrash:

Another good question: What defines Omnipotency? Can he violate the laws of logic? Can he Be and Not Be at the same time?

(Sorry for double quote)
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/omnipotency

I'm afraid both you and I are out of luck if you want a better definition as what God does (miracle or disaster) could possibly be inexplicable dumb luck, henceforth; we don't know exactly how strong God is (with the exception of what the bible tells us) because we can't correct ascertain what is human intervention, god-through-human intervention or purely god based-intervention.

But if we use the concept stated above then....
Yes, one could assume that he could violate the laws of what could be seen as humanly, logically, mentally and physically possible and part of my theory to his existence actually (arguably) requires that he is and is not at the same time, HOWEVER as the same with the omnipotency question what makes up what is humanly, logically, mentally (etc) possible is again a very difficult question to answer.

Well, if the Jews were to be believed (Old Testament), only the prophets could gaze upon god and live as he was beyond human comprehension. As such some would theorize that he does indeed break our laws and the bible is evidence of that (People died by looking at him) He was simply so great looking that it was outright lethal.

That mixed with him being a lover. It's a deadly-ass cocktail. And kind of sad for him, he can't even show himself to his fans at the risk of all of them melting from all his greatness.

So Tom Hiddleston basically?

I'm sorry I had to.
What if he's an Eldritch Abomination of sorts? (Tv Tropes type definition. Yes I know 'wah wah tv tropes in mah forumz')

Angelblaze:
What if he's an Eldritch Abomination of sorts? (Tv Tropes type definition. Yes I know 'wah wah tv tropes in mah forumz')

Then he'll eat the Christians first. That's the boon typically associated with worshipping Great Old Ones, a quick death and being spared eons of suffering. Read this Cthulhu Tract to learn more:
http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=135

Skeleon:

Angelblaze:
What if he's an Eldritch Abomination of sorts? (Tv Tropes type definition. Yes I know 'wah wah tv tropes in mah forumz')

Then he'll eat the Christians first. That's the boon typically associated with worshipping Great Old Ones, a quick death and being spared eons of suffering. Read this Cthulhu Tract to learn more:
http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=135

At times, I love you like a brother.
This saved otherwise dreary and hung-over day.

Skeleon:

Angelblaze:
What if he's an Eldritch Abomination of sorts? (Tv Tropes type definition. Yes I know 'wah wah tv tropes in mah forumz')

Then he'll eat the Christians first. That's the boon typically associated with worshipping Great Old Ones, a quick death and being spared eons of suffering. Read this Cthulhu Tract to learn more:
http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=135

Good News: This was hilarious.

Bad News: You just introduced me to Jack Chick. The horror, the horror

Frission:
If there was a god, he would be a god of the machine and praying to him would be like praying to the laws of gravity.

Meet the God of Machines:

image

From the weakness of the mind, Omnissiah save us
From the lies of the Antipath, circuit preserve us
From the rage of the Beast, iron protect us
From the temptations of the Flashlord, silica cleanse us
From the ravages of the Destroyer, anima shield us
From this rotting cage of biomatter,
Machine God set us free

Realitycrash:
A basic question that I've been wondering about; What basis is there in scriptures for God actually being 'good'?
And even so, how are we to understand what 'good' means? Is our concept of 'good' the same as Gods? If not, that would be a suitable explanation to the TheodicÚ-problem.

I've talked to many religious people (mainly Christians and Muslims but not only) and it according to them, it doesn't matter whether god is "good" or not (a lot of them actually are religious because of the fear of god's wrath/hell/whatever). God created everything and controls everything so he can destroy everything if he wants to. His will becomes the truth. Good is what god says is good. You can disagree but he's god and you're nothing compared to him so you lose.

If there is a God and he has a stance on morality(basically if its the common view of God) then yes, God is good. Why? Because omnipotent and omniscient beings probably have a far better grasp on what is good and evil then we do.

Realitycrash:
At times, I love you like a brother.
This saved otherwise dreary and hung-over day.

Frission:
Good News: This was hilarious.

Bad News: You just introduced me to Jack Chick. The horror, the horror

Glad you enjoyed that. Sometimes trawling the depths of the net reveals strange and interesting things, if you manage to sift through enough of the porn without getting distracted.

That said, I'm terribly sorry for your loss, Frission. Had I known that a single soul on this forum had so far been spared Jack Chick and his Tracts, I wouldn't have posted this for sanity's sake. Too late now, though. You can join us. Forever and ever.

EDIT:

Da Orky Man:
*snip*

You know, as awesome as I find techpriests to be (if I were a techpriest, I'd obviously aspire to be a Magos Biologis!), I can only ever think of this when they come up...

Shock and Awe:
If there is a God and he has a stance on morality(basically if its the common view of God) then yes, God is good. Why? Because omnipotent and omniscient beings probably have a far better grasp on what is good and evil then we do.

Its odd that in humans intelligence doesnt correlate at ALL to being a good person. Why would a god, taking both of these to the extreme, break the lack of pattern? Its very possible to be vastly intelligent and evil or self serving. If you believe in Satan or any Satan like concept its obviously possible to be divine in SOME way (angelic) and still capable of being a douche.

Shock and Awe:
If there is a God and he has a stance on morality(basically if its the common view of God) then yes, God is good. Why? Because omnipotent and omniscient beings probably have a far better grasp on what is good and evil then we do.

They would have a better grasp of what is good and evil to them: their own likes and dislikes-- though that is true of anyone. But a better grasp of what is good and evil more generally, if such a concept even makes sense? There is no reason to think so. Knowing more things helps you more effectively implement your moral views, and you have to know about things to have preferences about them-- but other than that, its proponent(s) having more knowledge and power doesn't make a moral view better. One can know everything there is to know and have all the power in the universe and then see nothing wrong with torture or murdering innocent people because there is no threat of the same happening to him and he finds it interesting. If there is a God that has moral views, they are likely incomprehensible simply due to the extremity of the circumstances-- He would have no one to answer to, no adverse consequences to his actions. Imagine a prison warden (or slave master if you like) with no legal oversight or threat to his position but plenty of knowledge about what goes on in his prison: is there any particular reason to think this warden would be 'good'? Only from his point of view.

Now, an omniscient God would be quite able (though perhaps not willing) to know how to more effectively implement any particular person's moral views: how to create a situation that the people involved would like more in the long run. But knowing how is not the same thing as wanting to do so or agreeing to respect the preferences of the people involved. If we are to evaluate the morality of a god, then we must do so from our point of view. Maybe there is a God that knows what is best for us-- but He has no reason to give a shit.

I always found something funny about the fundamental incompatibility of the two ideas so prevalent in Christianity (it is in others as well but this is what I'm most familiar with). God is Good (capital G), and God works in mysterious ways (or some other phrasing of the same idea). The former is used to justify why you should love god, and the second to dismiss anything god does or allows to happen which is found to be bad by human standards. The argument is that god isn't accountable to human standards, but it is by those same standards that you label him/it good. So what you're saying is, I have no idea what he's doing, but even when it's bad it's actually good, for reasons that don't exist. Seems a bit circuitous to me.

Realitycrash:

Shadowstar38:

Realitycrash:

...So, whenever it suits him?

To the same extent that heads of states go to war "whenever it suits them". Though I'd expect an omnipotent being to have solid justification that man wouldn't.

Another good question: What defines Omnipotency? Can he violate the laws of logic? Can he Be and Not Be at the same time?

Omnipotence: Omni meaning All and potence standing for potential. All potential, infinite potential. God has limitless potential, which basically means he can do anything. But the God of the Bible is more then Omnipotent. He's Omnipresent (Infinite presence, boundless) and Omniscient (All seeing and knowing) too. The question isn't whether god can violate the laws of logic, if the mythological texts are to be taken as truth then thats a given, but rather can god affect his own limitlessness?

So going back to the Topic at hand, if god is a limitless supernatural entity, why has he established a system that has a predetermined outcome at the expense of billions of people over thousands of generations.

People are born gay (fact), but even if you were to believe the ignorant viewpoint that Homosexuality is a life choice, that would still mean God had already foreseen these people and their lifestyles and rather then using his limitless potential to change the course of their lives for redemption and access to heaven, he decides (and I can't stress this enough) with complete knowledge of a persons entire lifetime of decisions and actions that these people should be both Accosted, persecuted and humiliated during their life and then suffer eternal damnation for being an abomination in his eyes.

Eh?

Basically that means God created us in his image and either made it so, or at the least knew beforehand, that people would deviate from the "norm" he established and decided they should be punished both in life and eternally afterwords...

That defies all logic... and makes god look like a cruel immoral sadist.

So no, god is NOT good in any capacity.

EDIT: I should probably have checked the date of the last post. Sorry for rezzing this thread... was watching some religious debates on youtube and if gave me a rage boner that I needed to appease.

This topic seemed good for that...

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