US vs the world: US threatens Ecuadorian economy and Russia, whines at China

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BBboy20:
We're America, we tend to think bulldozing everything is the best option and whoever is ahead of the NSA or higher thinks so too.

In that vein... time for a news update:

http://www.news.com.au/technology/bolivian-presidential-aircraft-forced-to-land-in-austria-after-rumours-fugitive-edward-snowden-was-aboard/story-e6frfro0-1226673526782

Officials in both Austria and Bolivia said that Snowden was not on the plane, which was taking Morales home from a summit in Russia, where he had suggested that his government would be willing to consider granting asylum to the American.

A furious Bolivian Foreign Minister David Choquehuanca said France and Portugal would have to explain why they canceled authorization for the plane, claiming that the decision had put the president's life at risk.

"We don't know who invented this lie" that Snowden was traveling with Morales, Choquehuanca said in La Paz. "We want to denounce to the international community this injustice with the plane of President Evo Morales."

He said that after France and Portugal canceled authorization for the flight, Spain's government allowed the plane to be refueled in its territory. From there the plane flew on to Vienna.

French government officials reached overnight said they could not confirm whether Morales' plane was denied permission to fly over France. Officials at Portugal's Foreign Ministry and National Civil Aviation Authority could not be reached to comment.

Austrian Foreign Ministry spokesman Alexander Schallenberg told The Associated Press that Snowden was not with Morales.

[...]

"We want to declare very firmly that it was an American story that Edward Snowden was on this flight," said Defense Minister Ruben Saavedra at the VIP terminal of Vienna's airport. "This is a plot by the U.S. government to destroy president Morales' image. We say this simply is a lie. And we will confirm this."

The Bolivians are understandably pissed.

Here's where I first read about it, albeit in German, so I paraphrased that part:

http://www.tagesschau.de/ausland/snowden-morales100.html

The task of delaying/stopping the voyage [of the president] came from the USA, the Bolivian UN-ambassador Llorenti said. In his opinion, this action infringed upon the immunity of the president and his craft and put him at possible mortal risk.

Yeah. That's... that's the kind of thing I meant when I said the USA are incurring incredible amounts of diplomatic damage over this guy, over this case. I suppose we'll have to wait for official statements and investigations on this before we know whether this really originated with the USA or was done by the respective countries (France and Portugal in particular) of their own volition, perhaps merely because they worried about what the USA might say and do? Maybe we'll learn more as the story develops, but if this was really caused by the USA, then... damn. That'd be outrageous.

EDIT: I actually looked for sources and found that the CNN source I first picked conveniently failed to mention the allegations from the Bolivians that this is due to the USA government.

Skeleon:

BBboy20:
We're America, we tend to think bulldozing everything is the best option and whoever is ahead of the NSA or higher thinks so too.

In that vein... time for a news update:

http://www.news.com.au/technology/bolivian-presidential-aircraft-forced-to-land-in-austria-after-rumours-fugitive-edward-snowden-was-aboard/story-e6frfro0-1226673526782

Officials in both Austria and Bolivia said that Snowden was not on the plane, which was taking Morales home from a summit in Russia, where he had suggested that his government would be willing to consider granting asylum to the American.

A furious Bolivian Foreign Minister David Choquehuanca said France and Portugal would have to explain why they canceled authorization for the plane, claiming that the decision had put the president's life at risk.

"We don't know who invented this lie" that Snowden was traveling with Morales, Choquehuanca said in La Paz. "We want to denounce to the international community this injustice with the plane of President Evo Morales."

He said that after France and Portugal canceled authorization for the flight, Spain's government allowed the plane to be refueled in its territory. From there the plane flew on to Vienna.

French government officials reached overnight said they could not confirm whether Morales' plane was denied permission to fly over France. Officials at Portugal's Foreign Ministry and National Civil Aviation Authority could not be reached to comment.

Austrian Foreign Ministry spokesman Alexander Schallenberg told The Associated Press that Snowden was not with Morales.

[...]

"We want to declare very firmly that it was an American story that Edward Snowden was on this flight," said Defense Minister Ruben Saavedra at the VIP terminal of Vienna's airport. "This is a plot by the U.S. government to destroy president Morales' image. We say this simply is a lie. And we will confirm this."

The Bolivians are understandably pissed.

Here's where I first read about it, albeit in German, so I paraphrased that part:

http://www.tagesschau.de/ausland/snowden-morales100.html

The task of delaying/stopping the voyage [of the president] came from the USA, the Bolivian UN-ambassador Llorenti said. In his opinion, this action infringed upon the immunity of the president and his craft and put him at possible mortal risk.

Yeah. That's... that's the kind of thing I meant when I said the USA are incurring incredible amounts of diplomatic damage over this guy, over this case. I suppose we'll have to wait for official statements and investigations on this before we know whether this really originated with the USA or was done by the respective countries (France and Portugal in particular) of their own volition, perhaps merely because they worried about what the USA might say and do? Maybe we'll learn more as the story develops, but if this was really caused by the USA, then... damn. That'd be outrageous.

EDIT: I actually looked for sources and found that the CNN source I first picked conveniently failed to mention the allegations from the Bolivians that this is due to the USA government.

Of course, one has to ask whether European leaders are as angry at recent revelations as they pretend to be, given that three of them denied airspace use to Bolovia, and none of them have offered asylum to the man who let them know about all the spying.

Captcha: Oh Em Gee. I know, captcha, I'm shocked as well.

ClockworkPenguin:
Of course, one has to ask whether European leaders are as angry at recent revelations as they pretend to be, given that three of them denied airspace use to Bolovia, and none of them have offered asylum to the man who let them know about all the spying.

Captcha: Oh Em Gee. I know, captcha, I'm shocked as well.

Speaking for Germany?
Oh, fuck no. I fully expected our conservative government to deny Snowden asylum, as they said they want to, despite the faux outrage. Not surprised by that hypocrisy whatsoever.
What shocked me was that the SPD leadership fell in line with them. Awful.
The Greens and the Left are more principled, but nobody listens to them anyway. As for the liberals, well. Even among that fraud of a party there are voices to grant Snowden asylum, so I guess credit where credit is due.

http://www.tagesschau.de/inland/snowden-diskussion100.html

EDIT:
Also, a non-representative poll on that news website:

http://umfrage.tagesschau.de/umfrage/poll_dbdata.php?oid=umfrage-snowden100

Do you think Germany should admit Snowden?
Yes 80,3%
No 17,2%
I don't know/I don't have an opinion 2,5%

The way I see it is this, Snowden is a traitor, even if he was right about a lot of things. What's more what other information he's selling is a matter of speculation as he was apparently involved at a fairly high level and has information outside of governmental wrongdoing that could doubtlessly represent a serious security risk.

I "get" that a lot of people want to view him as a hero and hope he gets away from the government and are thus cheering for things that stymy government response, but I don't consider that a healthy attitude, and I think that he needs to be brought down as opposed to being allowed to hide in other countries, and that means being willing to take action against anyone who grants him asylum. As it is I already have some concerns about what he might have given the Russians or Chinese during his time in those countries.

I'd actually have more respect for Snowden if he outed the information and then surrendered and faced the music for what he did. Right now he seems like a huge weasel, and to be honest I wouldn't be entirely surprised if him releasing the popular information he did is simply a smokescreen to create international pressure/attention while he tries to get away with whatever else he was up to. A double edged sword because it's hard for someone to hide him while he's that high profile.

While some would consider this kind of crazy, I in part expect that he's probably got millions if not billions tucked away courtesy of foreign goverments, and his big exit strategy is to get off the radar for the 30 seconds needed to fake his own death or otherwise disappear into one of these countries. The US government is simply being very careful to keep him under as much observation as possible to make that difficult.

In short, I have no respect for the guy, and personally am very wary of any country he's visited or has refused to turn him over. Any one of those countries could not very well be in possession of US national security information.

Therumancer:
The way I see it is this, Snowden is a traitor, even if he was right about a lot of things. What's more what other information he's selling is a matter of speculation as he was apparently involved at a fairly high level and has information outside of governmental wrongdoing that could doubtlessly represent a serious security risk.

I "get" that a lot of people want to view him as a hero and hope he gets away from the government and are thus cheering for things that stymy government response, but I don't consider that a healthy attitude, and I think that he needs to be brought down as opposed to being allowed to hide in other countries, and that means being willing to take action against anyone who grants him asylum. As it is I already have some concerns about what he might have given the Russians or Chinese during his time in those countries.

I'd actually have more respect for Snowden if he outed the information and then surrendered and faced the music for what he did. Right now he seems like a huge weasel, and to be honest I wouldn't be entirely surprised if him releasing the popular information he did is simply a smokescreen to create international pressure/attention while he tries to get away with whatever else he was up to. A double edged sword because it's hard for someone to hide him while he's that high profile.

While some would consider this kind of crazy, I in part expect that he's probably got millions if not billions tucked away courtesy of foreign goverments, and his big exit strategy is to get off the radar for the 30 seconds needed to fake his own death or otherwise disappear into one of these countries. The US government is simply being very careful to keep him under as much observation as possible to make that difficult.

In short, I have no respect for the guy, and personally am very wary of any country he's visited or has refused to turn him over. Any one of those countries could not very well be in possession of US national security information.

Here we go, here's the problem with our foreign policy personified in one person giving their long-winded opinion over how treasonous a whistleblower is. You do understand that the United States doesn't have the best reputation when handling people it considers to be its' enemies, right? Especially in the 21st century where we don't have some rival country (Nazi Germany, Soviet Russia) to point at and go 'well we're not as bad as THOSE guys'. They've broken conventions in place to prevent the abuse or ignorance of human rights violations, they're drunk on their (constantly waning) power still as the world's sole 'superpower' and all those other misleading titles it just loves to remind the rest of the planet it has.

The point is, the fact that someone values their safety as well as getting information out is okay, it's not deserving of heroic praise (maybe) but it's good someone is putting it out there. The fact you want the person revealing all this to surrender himself after it's all said and done either means you're deluded insanely about how horrid the US can act or you're desperately trying to appear fair and balanced, when really you just want to lynch the guy because he's supposedly a weasel because...reasons? How other people view him isn't necessarily how he wants to be viewed, people who hold him up as a hero are indeed idiots, but I haven't seen anyone do that here.

Do you see the desire for the man to be offered asylum or refuge as a sign of him being lauded as a hero? I'd contest that it's, in fact, due to the absolute most probably scenario of the US ever getting their hands on him that he'll spend whatever life they'd let him have being tortured about any other possible moles before just being murdered. The United States isn't some beacon of hope or freedom, it likes to think of it that way, but just like a bitter retired football captain constantly trying to relive his glory days it's just a self-important bitter thing.

So, in short, you're either ignorant or hiding your malice, either way, boo on you.

Therumancer:
The way I see it is this, Snowden is a traitor, even if he was right about a lot of things. What's more what other information he's selling is a matter of speculation as he was apparently involved at a fairly high level and has information outside of governmental wrongdoing that could doubtlessly represent a serious security risk.

I "get" that a lot of people want to view him as a hero and hope he gets away from the government and are thus cheering for things that stymy government response, but I don't consider that a healthy attitude, and I think that he needs to be brought down as opposed to being allowed to hide in other countries, and that means being willing to take action against anyone who grants him asylum. As it is I already have some concerns about what he might have given the Russians or Chinese during his time in those countries.

I'd actually have more respect for Snowden if he outed the information and then surrendered and faced the music for what he did. Right now he seems like a huge weasel, and to be honest I wouldn't be entirely surprised if him releasing the popular information he did is simply a smokescreen to create international pressure/attention while he tries to get away with whatever else he was up to. A double edged sword because it's hard for someone to hide him while he's that high profile.

While some would consider this kind of crazy, I in part expect that he's probably got millions if not billions tucked away courtesy of foreign goverments, and his big exit strategy is to get off the radar for the 30 seconds needed to fake his own death or otherwise disappear into one of these countries. The US government is simply being very careful to keep him under as much observation as possible to make that difficult.

In short, I have no respect for the guy, and personally am very wary of any country he's visited or has refused to turn him over. Any one of those countries could not very well be in possession of US national security information.

Bradley Manning did what you suggest. I for one can totally understand why someone familiar with his case wouldn't want to stick around for the same treatment.

I'm also curious why US citizens prefer to demonise Snowden than get angry at what he revealed, or the fact that several high up security officials have been caught outright lying to congress.

Really? first the wikileaks guy, now this asshole? I'm I the only one who doesn't regard these twats as heroes? I'm sorry you don't need to know everything, security doesn't work that way. And to the people wondering why the US is so desperate to get him back: it probably has something to do with the (very likely) idea that he has dangerous information he is willing to trade with other countries in exchange for protection.

I have to say it really says something that when a US spy is found subverting American democracy, selling weapons to enemy powers and committing crimes against humanity then he gets hailed as a national hero and given a talk show but when a guy leaks that the governments rooting through data people thought was private suddenly he's public enemy number one.

Also I have to say that given the info we've got the notion that he has any sort of secret that the Chinese don't is frankly laughable.

major_chaos:
Really? first the wikileaks guy, now this asshole? I'm I the only one who doesn't regard these twats as heroes? I'm sorry you don't need to know everything, security doesn't work that way. And to the people wondering why the US is so desperate to get him back: it probably has something to do with the (very likely) idea that he has dangerous information he is willing to trade with other countries in exchange for protection.

NASHUNUL SECURITY! THEM DANGUM TURRISTS ARE GONNA AYE-TACK US! My fucking God, man, would you stop and listen to what you're saying? You sound like the most hysterical paranoid jingoist I've ever met, at least in this thread, are you operating under this delusion that America deserves to have all these dark secrets while everyone else must be kept ignorant of them? Is the possibility that our country cannot continue to bluster and bully its way into getting what it wants so scary to you? To me, that just sounds like we're in dire need of a change to our foreign policy. We're alienating our allies because the people in the government are looking for enemies, they're operating with the intent of finding things that fit their views.

Those views are that other countries are out to get us, when international politics are typically a rather dull and impersonal experience. Governance should be by cold computing logic, not by knee-jerk politics where we keep pumping billions into a military we don't need and spies who aren't all that useful. Like it or not, we need the good will of the rest of western civilization to keep on trucking, and we're constantly damaging our relations and interfering in other people's business. Can you imagine the hell we'd raise if foreigners tried to boss us around? But no, transparency, openness, and public discourse are what we need.

We don't need the fearmongering of a bunch of idiots who think we need a ridiculous military and a bunch of intelligence agencies that likely have the collective population of a small fucking country all because some event in 2001 happened and it hasn't happened again, bad things are going to happen every now and again, the intelligent thing to do is to not overreact. And we fucking overreacted. And we're still overreacting.

comraderichard:
snip

I really don't feel like having a drawn out argument with you, so I'm just gonna stick with two things.
One, Russia is not a nation known for its selfless philanthropy, there has to be a reason why they are so instantly so chummy with Snowden, even it its just the chance to flip off the U.S.
Two, just because there isn't a 100% chance my house is gonna get broken into doesn't mean I'm gonna go "meh, shit happens" (not to mention that 9/11 goes wayyyy beyond "shit happens". The very fact that such a tragedy happened was proof that something was not being done right.) and leave all my doors and windows open, and unlike the U.S, I don't even have a bunch of people who vocally hate me.

Also:

Governance should be by cold computing logic

It is. The cold logic in question is "how do I come out on top". Its a constant slow game of subtle moves and oneupmanship. And if you don't think just about every government works on that policy I think you are naive.

major_chaos:
9/11, Terrorists, Russia=Bad Guys, Rest of World=Potential Enemies

uhh... wow.. where did you come from?

Ehem. Russia and Snowden aren't Chummy, Russia offered Asylum only if Snowden promised that he would make sure no more information about the U.S leaked, otherwise he would be forced to leave their country. Just because they aren't spending mass-resources to help catch Snowden and deliver him to the U.S doesn't mean that they are 'chummy' it means that Russia is not the States bitch. They don't have an agreement, they don't have to do what the U.S says.

major_chaos:
9/11, Terrorists, Russia=Bad guys, Rest of World=Potential Enemies

Still.. Woah... I didn't actually think we had a guy like this on the forum... Rare breed these days I guess. I mean, I realize I might come off as insulting. But is this seriously your belief? You look at this entire case, from all sides. Critical of news from your own country, and arrive at this conclusion?

I'm just dumbfounded.

Couple of questions in case you want to continue the discussion though.

1: What do you think about the leader of NSA openly lying to the American public, the Supereme court, and laughing in the face of the U.S constitution?
2: What do you think about the industrial espionage that the U.S has been using their political power to commit all over Europe on their Allies?
3: What do you think about the hundreds of millions of phonenumbers taken from German and U.S citizens and then been listened in on by the NSA? Not for protection, but for profits.
4: Why do you think that Russia is chummy with Snowden when they have publically been asking him to stop leaking secret intelligence?
5: Why do you think Snowden is more of a traitor than the head of NSA, Snowden being a whistleblower and the head of NSA working against the American public and betraying the trust of dozens of allied nations through industrial espionage?

From your persona you'd expect some pretty stereotypical answers for those 5. But you might suprise.

and lastly.

What do you think of the Image that the U.S is becoming less of a superpower than it was in the past, not able to get what it want out of other countries by bullying them and facing repercussions for acting in poor taste? Against its allies and its own citizens that is.

Sounds like good old US to me. You do what we tell you and if you dont we will invade you. Everyone in the political world knows that US is respected solely for the fact that its too big to ignore.

Capcha: hard cheese
hard indeed.

Nikolaz72:

uhh... wow.. where did you come from?

A land of straw men apparently.

1: What do you think about the leader of NSA openly lying to the American public, the Supreme court, and laughing in the face of the U.S constitution?

First of all, I don't know about you personally, but I find it funny a fair portion of this site considers the constitution to be this worthless outdated thing, but then when something like this happens everyone suddenly cares about the constitution. As for the question, I would have minded the lie more if anyone had actually believed him, but I think most people were totally aware that he was lying through his teeth. Our government is good at that

2: What do you think about the industrial espionage that the U.S has been using their political power to commit all over Europe on their Allies?


It would be moronic and self defeating on a level normally seen only in EA, but I would like to see the evidence.

3: What do you think about the hundreds of millions of phonenumbers taken from German and U.S citizens and then been listened in on by the NSA? Not for protection, but for profits.

Define "for profits". how does one profit from listening to phonecalls? Also I am unfamiliar with German law, do they have privacy rights bestowed at a high level like the U.S? That impacts how much of an issue them being listened to is from a legal perspective.

4: Why do you think that Russia is chummy with Snowden when they have publically been asking him to stop leaking secret intelligence?

Two reasons: One is that the statement makes no sense as anything other than a PR move. What does Russia care about someone leaking U.S secrets? (unless they are somehow involved or worried that the NSA had info on them that they don't want leaked, both of which seem unlikely) Two is that I think the Russian government is opportunistic and pragmatic, not Bond villains. If they do get information from Snowden I expect it to be used in small ways, or just kept safe on file because they want to know what we know, not "VAHAAHAH NOW WE HAVE ALL U.S SECRETS LAUNCH THE NUKLEAR MISSILES COMRADE"

5: Why do you think Snowden is more of a traitor than the head of NSA, Snowden being a whistleblower and the head of NSA working against the American public and betraying the trust of dozens of allied nations through industrial espionage?

You are working on the false assumption that I like one a hate the other. The NSA driector only comes in just slightly second on the hate race because he is doing his job and if I'm being charitable and making some big assumptions about his personality I might guess that he was doing what he though was best for his country. So debate will rage on if he is a criminal or not, but I would never call him a traitor. Snowden committed a crime for totally unknown reasons and then fled the country. Also don't bother calling him a whistleblower, that word doesn't evoke instinctive hero worship in me like some people.

What do you think of the Image that the U.S is becoming less of a superpower than it was in the past, not able to get what it want out of other countries by bullying them and facing repercussions for acting in poor taste? Against its allies and its own citizens that is.

I'm not sure I understand what you are asking with this one, so I will just say that I don't deny we have full retard EA reject PR skills, and I believe part of it comes from our leaders being a bit confused on who exactly our allies are.

major_chaos:

how does one profit from listening to phonecalls?

Same way they do emails.

major_chaos:

It would be moronic and self defeating, but I would like to see the evidence.

http://eandt.theiet.org/blog/blogpost.cfm?threadid=53213&catid=368

Blog for now while I find other links. The main thing was the it had been confirmed that NSA had sold various secrets on to various benefactors in the U.S.

http://coldstreams.com/?p=5622

So anyway...

America has been spying on the EU on an unprecedented scale in high likelyhood of doing so in order to make trade-deals come out in their favor.

Which has nothing to do with Terrorism. NSA has helped fund various Microsoft software which, have most likely been used in all of this.

The future this spells for America is that American Software and OS will become untrustworthy as links to the NSA are suspected, and such products could therefore prove a liability. Also, the entire reveal has caused irreversible damage to U.S reputation.

Edit: Found it. http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/5102c9b6-e31e-11e2-bd87-00144feabdc0.html#axzz2Y6k4nZyG

Then we also have Obama's blunder in Berlin justifying the bugging of European Ambassadors and Prime Ministers with Counter-Terrorism as an excuse, implying that Europe would commit acts of terrorism or know about acts of Terrorism and not tell the U.S.

This was not just mildly insulting from the newly-reelected president, but was a huge insult. It sparked many protests the likes of which was seen back during the voting on the SOPA bill, but against the guy who was most likely more popular in Europe than in the U.S merely a year or two past.

Nikolaz72:

Same way they do emails.

Maybe I'm just slow but I still don't get it

http://eandt.theiet.org/blog/blogpost.cfm?threadid=53213&catid=368
http://coldstreams.com/?p=5622
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/5102c9b6-e31e-11e2-bd87-00144feabdc0.html#axzz2Y6k4nZyG

The first two seem more like speculation, and the third requires a membership. If thats the one that really sells it could you provide a summary?

or know about acts of Terrorism and not tell the U.S.

seems plausible, if not likely. I think finding Bin Laden in a place where one of our supposed allies should really have been able to find him may have made the government far less trusting.

but against the guy who was most likely more popular in Europe than in the U.S merely a year or two past.

The number of people shocked that Obama isn't actually as much of a saint as his election campaign would have you believe is downright amusing.

Nikolaz72:
Snip

The NSA requires by law all US software that contains cryptographic functions to either have use a NSA provided key-recovery agent, implement a "workload reducer" mechanism, or use sub-standard encryption on all versions which are exported out of the US in order to allow the NSA to decrypt any data products of said software.

This is old news, and no one cared/s.

Giant US software manufacturer Lotus[IBM] has been lowering the profile of information about how they have installed an NSA-only trapdoor into e-mail and conference systems used by many European governments, including the German Ministry of Defence, the French Ministry of Education and Research and the Ministry of Education in Latvia.

Guess how long this was ago? hint, it was when Lotus was still Lotus and not IBM :)

major_chaos:

The first two seem more like speculation, and the third requires a membership. If thats the one that really sells it could you provide a summary?

What it says is that its confirmed that the NSA has sold on the information its gathered aswell as using it to make tradedeals with european nations come out in its favor, something that has nothing to do wtih Terrorism.

Also I'd like to point out that US/EU Relations are different than US/Pakistan. You equating them to eachother is kind of wierd.....

Odd, didn't require subscription when I viewed it an hour ago, but it does now. I think it (article) became so popular that they now demand it.

Nikolaz72:
What it says is that its confirmed that the NSA has sold on the information its gathered aswell as using it to make tradedeals with european nations come out in its favor, something that has nothing to do wtih Terrorism.

While that is shady as all fuck, I'm not sure it qualifies as "espionage". It really doesn't surprise me that the government is taking lessons from the greedy corporations it seems so fond of.

Also I'd like to point out that US/EU Relations are different than US/Pakistan. You equating them to eachother is kind of wierd.....

I wasn't trying to say they are exactly the same, just that as far as the higher ups are concerned it may have been the "proof" that supposed allies are not trustworthy that justifies (in their minds) this level of suspicion.

major_chaos:

Nikolaz72:
What it says is that its confirmed that the NSA has sold on the information its gathered aswell as using it to make tradedeals with european nations come out in its favor, something that has nothing to do wtih Terrorism.

While that is shady as all fuck, I'm not sure it qualifies as "espionage". It really doesn't surprise me that the government is taking lessons from the greedy corporations it seems so fond of.

When they find out such via tapping into German/Belgium/European phonecalls and Email, aye. That's what we call espionage.

major_chaos:

I wasn't trying to say they are exactly the same, just that as far as the higher ups are concerned it may have been the "proof" that supposed allies are not trustworthy that justifies (in their minds) this level of suspicion.

Pakistan is an ally because the U.S wanted to be able to Nuke Russia faster.

The European nations allies because they are part of the capitalist west.

Quite frankly they are very different in nature.

one of my brothers, who is a rather blokish guy, said about this issue today "if your economy is your bird America just got caught fucking everybodys".

he's quite right too. innovation is the lifeblood of an advanced economy and political "spying", knowing what your friends are really doing and knowing you can trust them, is quite a different ball game to "industrial espionage" which, and virtually there's no denying this, is also a form of warfare.

the US government stands accused of undertaking exactly the kinds of electronic warfare activities it levels at the Chinese in an effort to highlight them as hostile...on its own closest allies...and at a scale and with a level of technological sophistication clearly far higher...for profit...in the middle of one of the biggest recessions/depressions whatever ever...when we could really do with our own technological and economic developments tyvm...

i think its fair to say

"we are not amused".

http://www.cnn.com/2013/07/05/world/americas/venezuela-snowden/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

Looks like countries that hate the United States are taking him in, Personally I think he should go back the US to stand trial, I doubt he would be found guilty, as he could cite fourth amendment, and personally I don't see him being given prison time if he was.

Sleekit:
one of my brothers, who is a rather blokish guy, said about this issue today "if your economy is your bird America just got caught fucking everybodys".

he's quite right too. innovation is the lifeblood of an advanced economy and political "spying", knowing what your friends are really doing and knowing you can trust them, is quite a different ball game to "industrial espionage" which, and virtually there's no denying this, is also a form of warfare.

the US government stands accused of undertaking exactly the kinds of electronic warfare activities it levels at the Chinese in an effort to highlight them as hostile...on its own closest allies...and at a scale and with a level of technological sophistication clearly far higher...for profit...in the middle of one of the biggest recessions/depressions whatever ever...when we could really do with our own technological and economic developments tyvm...

i think its fair to say

"we are not amused".

Then do something about it.

No, seriously. You think this isn't what everyone is doing? SERIOUSLY? They are. Everyone. Everyone steals tech from everyone, everyone steals information. It's not even a new thing. We've been doing this for thousands of years all over humanity. Or at least, everyone attempts to.

All living things seek to conquer all other living things. To be the top. Culture is very much a living thing and it sits by the same rules.

So do something about. Embargo us. Break alliances with us. Stop trading with us. Don't have your politicians write strongly worded letters, have them write strongly worded declarations. Seize our embassies and expel our corporations and merchants. Show us the strength of your culture.

Captcha: return to sender. Yes, exactly! Send all that money we send you back to us. All the information, all the tech, all the knowledge, all the goods, all the services. That will show us.

Gergar12:
http://www.cnn.com/2013/07/05/world/americas/venezuela-snowden/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

Looks like countries that hate the United States are taking him in, Personally I think he should go back the US to stand trial, I doubt he would be found guilty, as he could cite fourth amendment, and personally I don't see him being given prison time if he was.

His equivalent got thrown into Guantanamo not even a year ago, I think he has good reason to stay off.

Bentusi16:

Sleekit:
one of my brothers, who is a rather blokish guy, said about this issue today "if your economy is your bird America just got caught fucking everybodys".

he's quite right too. innovation is the lifeblood of an advanced economy and political "spying", knowing what your friends are really doing and knowing you can trust them, is quite a different ball game to "industrial espionage" which, and virtually there's no denying this, is also a form of warfare.

the US government stands accused of undertaking exactly the kinds of electronic warfare activities it levels at the Chinese in an effort to highlight them as hostile...on its own closest allies...and at a scale and with a level of technological sophistication clearly far higher...for profit...in the middle of one of the biggest recessions/depressions whatever ever...when we could really do with our own technological and economic developments tyvm...

i think its fair to say

"we are not amused".

Then do something about it.

No, seriously. You think this isn't what everyone is doing? SERIOUSLY? They are. Everyone. Everyone steals tech from everyone, everyone steals information. It's not even a new thing. We've been doing this for thousands of years all over humanity. Or at least, everyone attempts to.

All living things seek to conquer all other living things. To be the top. Culture is very much a living thing and it sits by the same rules.

So do something about. Embargo us. Break alliances with us. Stop trading with us. Don't have your politicians write strongly worded letters, have them write strongly worded declarations. Seize our embassies and expel our corporations and merchants. Show us the strength of your culture.

Captcha: return to sender. Yes, exactly! Send all that money we send you back to us. All the information, all the tech, all the knowledge, all the goods, all the services. That will show us.

You're right oooh so great American. How foolish were we who live off of money sent to use by our great protector, not to submit when he took what was rightfully his from, not under our noses. No... Stumbled upon whilst protecting us from foreign unknown enemies, and decided that he could use it much more effectively to both our benefits (For he is wise)

He who is faultless, he who provides, he who shall always provide and always forgive. How could we be so foolish as to think him wrong for this?

You are pretty dim if you don't realize how much information we shared which is now gonna be cut off. America can enjoy living in Isolation. Judging from your ideology this is most likely what you want aswell, so we can turn this defeat for all into a win/win. We don't have to deal with America's bullshit and America can be as capitalistically disgusting as it wants to be.

Nikolaz72:

Gergar12:
http://www.cnn.com/2013/07/05/world/americas/venezuela-snowden/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

Looks like countries that hate the United States are taking him in, Personally I think he should go back the US to stand trial, I doubt he would be found guilty, as he could cite fourth amendment, and personally I don't see him being given prison time if he was.

His equivalent got thrown into Guantanamo not even a year ago, I think he has good reason to stay off.

Bentusi16:

Sleekit:
one of my brothers, who is a rather blokish guy, said about this issue today "if your economy is your bird America just got caught fucking everybodys".

he's quite right too. innovation is the lifeblood of an advanced economy and political "spying", knowing what your friends are really doing and knowing you can trust them, is quite a different ball game to "industrial espionage" which, and virtually there's no denying this, is also a form of warfare.

the US government stands accused of undertaking exactly the kinds of electronic warfare activities it levels at the Chinese in an effort to highlight them as hostile...on its own closest allies...and at a scale and with a level of technological sophistication clearly far higher...for profit...in the middle of one of the biggest recessions/depressions whatever ever...when we could really do with our own technological and economic developments tyvm...

i think its fair to say

"we are not amused".

Then do something about it.

No, seriously. You think this isn't what everyone is doing? SERIOUSLY? They are. Everyone. Everyone steals tech from everyone, everyone steals information. It's not even a new thing. We've been doing this for thousands of years all over humanity. Or at least, everyone attempts to.

All living things seek to conquer all other living things. To be the top. Culture is very much a living thing and it sits by the same rules.

So do something about. Embargo us. Break alliances with us. Stop trading with us. Don't have your politicians write strongly worded letters, have them write strongly worded declarations. Seize our embassies and expel our corporations and merchants. Show us the strength of your culture.

Captcha: return to sender. Yes, exactly! Send all that money we send you back to us. All the information, all the tech, all the knowledge, all the goods, all the services. That will show us.

You're right oooh so great American. How foolish were we who live off of money sent to use by our great protector, not to submit when he took what was rightfully his from, not under our noses. No... Stumbled upon whilst protecting us from foreign unknown enemies, and decided that he could use it much more effectively to both our benefits (For he is wise)

He who is faultless, he who provides, he who shall always provide and always forgive. How could we be so foolish as to think him wrong for this?

You are pretty dim if you don't realize how much information we shared which is now gonna be cut off. America can enjoy living in Isolation. Judging from your ideology this is most likely what you want aswell, so we can turn this defeat for all into a win/win. We don't have to deal with America's bullshit and America can be as capitalistically disgusting as it wants to be.

That's exactly what I want. I want us to be isolationist again. No more foreign entanglements, no more helping the world that hates us every time we do ANYTHING. It's one thing to hate us for things that are reasonable to hate over, (e.g. spying), but everything america does, no matter what, is an imperialistic plot, up to and including our marine relief response units.

So yes, fuck it. Fuck the world. The US is fucked up and needs to stop caring about any one else long enough to get its own house in order, and the international community has no interest in helping us, only helping us into the grave so they can claim power for themselves. Thus is the nature of cultures.

I am so fed up with people like you that I would rather we just stopped trying to do anything for anyone else and focus one hundred percent on fixing our own shit. Our own economy, our own government, our own justice system.

I never fucking said america was faultless, by the way. Far from it. In fact my desire for isolation is due to the opposite. We are so fucked up that right now we'd be doing the world AND us a favor by withdrawing within to ourselves. I want all our troops out of foreign nations. I want all our money out of foreign nations. I want all our entanglements gone. I want the US to look at the US and realize how fucked up it is and stop giving money to people who HATE us and protest us and kill us and use the money to rebuild the fucking economy HERE, so that in many years time we CAN go out into the world and help people again without being so massively in debt (and growing all the time! http://www.usdebtclock.org/ ) that things are on the verge of collapse.

And you know what else? Our isolation would force you all not to be so reliant on our economy. You win! You no longer have to fear a crash in New York destroying the economy of Berlin. Is this not a good thing? Is it not good for everyone to be self-sufficient as nation states and THEN join together as entities in order to form something even better?

Bentusi16:
That's exactly what I want. I want us to be isolationist again. No more foreign entanglements,

How do you propose the US maintains its international trade without getting involved in foreign entanglements?

Bentusi16:

Nikolaz72:

Gergar12:
http://www.cnn.com/2013/07/05/world/americas/venezuela-snowden/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

Looks like countries that hate the United States are taking him in, Personally I think he should go back the US to stand trial, I doubt he would be found guilty, as he could cite fourth amendment, and personally I don't see him being given prison time if he was.

His equivalent got thrown into Guantanamo not even a year ago, I think he has good reason to stay off.

Bentusi16:

Then do something about it.

No, seriously. You think this isn't what everyone is doing? SERIOUSLY? They are. Everyone. Everyone steals tech from everyone, everyone steals information. It's not even a new thing. We've been doing this for thousands of years all over humanity. Or at least, everyone attempts to.

All living things seek to conquer all other living things. To be the top. Culture is very much a living thing and it sits by the same rules.

So do something about. Embargo us. Break alliances with us. Stop trading with us. Don't have your politicians write strongly worded letters, have them write strongly worded declarations. Seize our embassies and expel our corporations and merchants. Show us the strength of your culture.

Captcha: return to sender. Yes, exactly! Send all that money we send you back to us. All the information, all the tech, all the knowledge, all the goods, all the services. That will show us.

You're right oooh so great American. How foolish were we who live off of money sent to use by our great protector, not to submit when he took what was rightfully his from, not under our noses. No... Stumbled upon whilst protecting us from foreign unknown enemies, and decided that he could use it much more effectively to both our benefits (For he is wise)

He who is faultless, he who provides, he who shall always provide and always forgive. How could we be so foolish as to think him wrong for this?

You are pretty dim if you don't realize how much information we shared which is now gonna be cut off. America can enjoy living in Isolation. Judging from your ideology this is most likely what you want aswell, so we can turn this defeat for all into a win/win. We don't have to deal with America's bullshit and America can be as capitalistically disgusting as it wants to be.

That's exactly what I want. I want us to be isolationist again. No more foreign entanglements, no more helping the world that hates us every time we do ANYTHING. It's one thing to hate us for things that are reasonable to hate over, (e.g. spying), but everything america does, no matter what, is an imperialistic plot, up to and including our marine relief response units.

So yes, fuck it. Fuck the world. The US is fucked up and needs to stop caring about any one else long enough to get its own house in order, and the international community has no interest in helping us, only helping us into the grave so they can claim power for themselves. Thus is the nature of cultures.

I am so fed up with people like you that I would rather we just stopped trying to do anything for anyone else and focus one hundred percent on fixing our own shit. Our own economy, our own government, our own justice system.

I never fucking said america was faultless, by the way. Far from it. In fact my desire for isolation is due to the opposite. We are so fucked up that right now we'd be doing the world AND us a favor by withdrawing within to ourselves.

You acted as if the rest of the world survives because of America, as if they are in the middle of it all.

And what do you mean hate Americans for ANYTHING they do? Like what?

Start unjustified wars on faraway countries on groundless claims and forcing their allies into it by enforcing a treaty meant to protect the west from an enemy long gone?

Give the Bankers free reign and cause a crisis that broke the economies of dozens foreign countries tied to you economically?

Treat the only allies you have as if they were enemies?

Pull out of Student Exchange programs with the rest of the west because you don't want to have programs with a certain middle eastern country?

Quite frankly it seems America is hated for all the BAD THINGS America does. It's alienating the people its supposed to, youknow... Treat with a modicum of respect. All the hate it gets is DESERVED.

thaluikhain:

Bentusi16:
That's exactly what I want. I want us to be isolationist again. No more foreign entanglements,

How do you propose the US maintains its international trade without getting involved in foreign entanglements?

Foreign alliances and trade agreements are separate things. Trading with a partner is not the same as saying 'if someone declares war on you we'll be in war as well.'

Nikolaz72:

Bentusi16:

Nikolaz72:

His equivalent got thrown into Guantanamo not even a year ago, I think he has good reason to stay off.

You're right oooh so great American. How foolish were we who live off of money sent to use by our great protector, not to submit when he took what was rightfully his from, not under our noses. No... Stumbled upon whilst protecting us from foreign unknown enemies, and decided that he could use it much more effectively to both our benefits (For he is wise)

He who is faultless, he who provides, he who shall always provide and always forgive. How could we be so foolish as to think him wrong for this?

You are pretty dim if you don't realize how much information we shared which is now gonna be cut off. America can enjoy living in Isolation. Judging from your ideology this is most likely what you want aswell, so we can turn this defeat for all into a win/win. We don't have to deal with America's bullshit and America can be as capitalistically disgusting as it wants to be.

That's exactly what I want. I want us to be isolationist again. No more foreign entanglements, no more helping the world that hates us every time we do ANYTHING. It's one thing to hate us for things that are reasonable to hate over, (e.g. spying), but everything america does, no matter what, is an imperialistic plot, up to and including our marine relief response units.

So yes, fuck it. Fuck the world. The US is fucked up and needs to stop caring about any one else long enough to get its own house in order, and the international community has no interest in helping us, only helping us into the grave so they can claim power for themselves. Thus is the nature of cultures.

I am so fed up with people like you that I would rather we just stopped trying to do anything for anyone else and focus one hundred percent on fixing our own shit. Our own economy, our own government, our own justice system.

I never fucking said america was faultless, by the way. Far from it. In fact my desire for isolation is due to the opposite. We are so fucked up that right now we'd be doing the world AND us a favor by withdrawing within to ourselves.

You acted as if the rest of the world survives because of America, as if they are in the middle of it all.

And what do you mean hate Americans for ANYTHING they do? Like what?

Start unjustified wars on groundless claims and forcing their allies into it by enforcing a treaty meant to protect the west from the Soviets?

Give the Bankers free reign and cause a crisis that broke the economies of dozens countries?

Treat the only military allies you have like enemies?

Pull out of Student Exchange programs with the rest of the west because you don't want to have programs with a certain middle eastern country?

Quite frankly it seems America is hated for all the BAD THINGS America does. It's alienating the people its supposed to, youknow... Treat with a modicum of respect. All the hate it gets is DESERVED.

Oh, yes, and this is my point. What the FUCK did I just say? Here let me quote it for you...

It's one thing to hate us for things that are reasonable to hate over, (e.g. spying), but everything america does, no matter what, is an imperialistic plot, up to and including our marine relief response units.

EVERYTHING WE DO IS AN IMPERIALIST PLOT. Everything. Any good America does in the world is COMPLETELY IGNORED in favor of turning us into the bogeyman, so fuck it man, why SHOULDN'T we stop doing stuff? Isn't that what you want/ Don't you WANT us to get out of world politics? If we're out of world politics we aren't going to be spying, we aren't going to be dealing with military allies like enemies, we're not going to be declaring war on foreign nations.

p.s. I'm off to work so my next reply will be a bit.

Bentusi16:

thaluikhain:

Bentusi16:
That's exactly what I want. I want us to be isolationist again. No more foreign entanglements,

How do you propose the US maintains its international trade without getting involved in foreign entanglements?

Foreign alliances and trade agreements are separate things. Trading with a partner is not the same as saying 'if someone declares war on you we'll be in war as well.'

Yes...and no. In theory the US's military dominance and who it chooses to ally itself with, the governments it overthrows and the ones that it props up, have no bearing on who it trades with and what benefits it receives. In practice these are very important considerations.

Bentusi16:

EVERYTHING WE DO IS AN IMPERIALIST PLOT. Everything. Any good America does in the world is COMPLETELY IGNORED

Citation needed. I hear about good stuff coming from America every day, however it does 'nothing' to ease the blow of the imperialist and isolationist policies that it seems to have prided itself on in the past decade. The bad doesn't outweigh the good, but there is too much god damn bad. And you propose that such is merely ignored? Just hushed into a corner and not be looked at in favor of the good? Please.

How much do you hear about the Good Europe does?

Anyone?

No. You don't. They are the most generous aid-senders to third-world countries in terms of (percentage of GNP) out there, yet you don't see that plastered all over American news do you now? Yet there seems to be plenty about how everything is falling apart in Portugal/Spain/Greece/Iceland.

Good things are glossed over, bad things are in focus. Just so happens that the U.S has a 'lot' of shit.

Then theres the fact that America is 'different' from us. Different in the way they do image.

http://daily.swarthmore.edu/2010/01/27/when-america-does-good-things-in-the-world-people-appreciate-it/

Interesting read. Go give it one.

Bentusi16:

Nikolaz72:

Gergar12:
http://www.cnn.com/2013/07/05/world/americas/venezuela-snowden/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

Looks like countries that hate the United States are taking him in, Personally I think he should go back the US to stand trial, I doubt he would be found guilty, as he could cite fourth amendment, and personally I don't see him being given prison time if he was.

His equivalent got thrown into Guantanamo not even a year ago, I think he has good reason to stay off.

Bentusi16:

Then do something about it.

No, seriously. You think this isn't what everyone is doing? SERIOUSLY? They are. Everyone. Everyone steals tech from everyone, everyone steals information. It's not even a new thing. We've been doing this for thousands of years all over humanity. Or at least, everyone attempts to.

All living things seek to conquer all other living things. To be the top. Culture is very much a living thing and it sits by the same rules.

So do something about. Embargo us. Break alliances with us. Stop trading with us. Don't have your politicians write strongly worded letters, have them write strongly worded declarations. Seize our embassies and expel our corporations and merchants. Show us the strength of your culture.

Captcha: return to sender. Yes, exactly! Send all that money we send you back to us. All the information, all the tech, all the knowledge, all the goods, all the services. That will show us.

You're right oooh so great American. How foolish were we who live off of money sent to use by our great protector, not to submit when he took what was rightfully his from, not under our noses. No... Stumbled upon whilst protecting us from foreign unknown enemies, and decided that he could use it much more effectively to both our benefits (For he is wise)

He who is faultless, he who provides, he who shall always provide and always forgive. How could we be so foolish as to think him wrong for this?

You are pretty dim if you don't realize how much information we shared which is now gonna be cut off. America can enjoy living in Isolation. Judging from your ideology this is most likely what you want aswell, so we can turn this defeat for all into a win/win. We don't have to deal with America's bullshit and America can be as capitalistically disgusting as it wants to be.

That's exactly what I want. I want us to be isolationist again. No more foreign entanglements, no more helping the world that hates us every time we do ANYTHING. It's one thing to hate us for things that are reasonable to hate over, (e.g. spying), but everything america does, no matter what, is an imperialistic plot, up to and including our marine relief response units.

So yes, fuck it. Fuck the world. The US is fucked up and needs to stop caring about any one else long enough to get its own house in order, and the international community has no interest in helping us, only helping us into the grave so they can claim power for themselves. Thus is the nature of cultures.

I am so fed up with people like you that I would rather we just stopped trying to do anything for anyone else and focus one hundred percent on fixing our own shit. Our own economy, our own government, our own justice system.

I never fucking said america was faultless, by the way. Far from it. In fact my desire for isolation is due to the opposite. We are so fucked up that right now we'd be doing the world AND us a favor by withdrawing within to ourselves.

Is the cognitive dissonance really that bad that as soon as we say 'Hey, what's with all the industrial espionage, friends don't do that' your response is 'You can't tell the US what to do! why do you all hate us!, fuck yooooooou!'

I would suggest, that rather than adopting an 'every country for itself' strategy involving stealing from your allies etc. It would be more productive to the aim of de-fuckingup the US (and indeed Europe) for it to work with it's allies for mutual gain. Saying 'don't like what we're doing, then commit economic mutually assured destruction' is not a mature or sensible stance to take.

Because whilst what you say about cultures may have truth in it, Europe and America have almost the same culture, so why would we want to be at each others throats.

I got sent home from work early due to the heat so I'm not one hundred percent up to speed but I'll answer best I can in one mini-post here.

1. I want the Europeans to have some balls and do something to the U.S. other then whine a bit and flap their arms. Something other then a very strongly worded letter.

2. I want the U.S. to start scaling back it's foreign stuff as much as possible. It would be nice if we could keep the marines out there with the fleets to respond to disasters, but the foreign aid stuff and the entangling alliances and the propping up dictators and tearing them down, that all needs to stop. All of it. No more military intervenionism, no more economic aid. Trade? Yes. Aid is not the same as trade.

3. The issue is not that the good things are swept over, that happens everywhere, it's that the good things are said to secretly be part of the U.S. plots to rule the world. Often. The irony of it is that the very first comment on that nice blog you posted is someone saying 'This is just another US imperialist plot'. It's that attitude that I'm tired of and I can't think of a way to fix it, so fuck it.

4. The problem with 'lets all help eachother' is that A: No country wants another country to succeed at cost of its own success and B: If one fails we all fail. That's the danger of the interlocked economies that get established before economic independence as individuals. If a states economy is developed in such a way that it MUST rely on others to continue, then the first hiccup will destroy not only it but probably also its linked in partners.

5. The cultures are the same in the same way a child often inherits things from its parents. And tell me how many adult people hate their abusive parents? And yes, the colonies were getting abused, it was part of the mercantilism theories of economics that were so popular for awhile. They intentionally kept their colonies as un-industrialized as possible so the colonies would have to rely on the homeland for finished goods.

6. The culture of europe is a sham. For over 3000 years the culture of europe was constantly waging wars against it because their wasn't, until recently, a monolithic european culture to be a part of. You were french, you were Alsace-Lorraine, you were german, you were rhinelander, you were austrian, you were polish. It was not until after WW2 that the idea of NOT having a war every generation between the major European powers became a thing that had to happen. It's a happy change, but the monolithic european culture is a myth or worse, a fabrication made up by individuals who WANT a mono-culture.

Bentusi16:
I got sent home from work early due to the heat so I'm not one hundred percent up to speed but I'll answer best I can in one mini-post here.

1. I want the Europeans to have some balls and do something to the U.S. other then whine a bit and flap their arms. Something other then a very strongly worded letter.

They really can't because each and every one of their countries is guilty of the exact same things the US has done. They're not really pissed that the US is doing it because it's just the reality of the current age, they're more pissed that this is getting aired in public.

2. I want the U.S. to start scaling back it's foreign stuff as much as possible. It would be nice if we could keep the marines out there with the fleets to respond to disasters, but the foreign aid stuff and the entangling alliances and the propping up dictators and tearing them down, that all needs to stop. All of it. No more military intervenionism, no more economic aid. Trade? Yes. Aid is not the same as trade.

What you're talking about would involve breaking a lot of agreements and treaties with nations as well as cripple the US military which currently relies on being involved in foreign stuff. You get rid of all of that and the US military becomes utterly useless because hey, when your army is built on the ability to be able to project your might to anywhere on the goddamn planet so you can overwhelm any enemy you might find yourself up again faster than they can build up their own strength to oppose you, ditching the means to project your might anywhere you need it to be at a moment's notice isn't just shooting yourself in the foot, it's taking a chainsaw to your leg right before a marathon.

You want the US to be isolonist again? That's pretty much a death sentance for the nation. If America pulls out China is going to step in and fill the void, which increases China's power and influence at the cost of America's. All the enemy's America has ever made since World War II ended are now going to start striking at whatever US interests are within reach because hey, you pulled out of the world's affairs so you can't really step in and stop them without the infrastructure brought about by "entangling alliances."

The world that we live in does not reward those who chose to hole up and try and pretend they can go it alone with no repercussions. America's propserty came on the heels of it ditching it's isolonist outlook and taking advange of the world, becoming isolonist again is only going to make it's problems worse.

The drive to catch Snowden, and all its political fall outs its pretty much theatre. All eyes are on Snowden rather than the revelations he has brought to light, and this is the real goal. The secondary goal is to punish Snowden at all costs, in order to set a firm example to all those who resist, what it is self evidently the construction of a surveillance apparatus tantamount to fascism.

I would laugh at those who are getting defensive, if only it didn't make me depressed and cynical for the fate of our world. This is truly an indication of the efficacy of nationalism, when the citizen conflates himself with his government; with its policy both foreign and domestic, and with its crimes and achievements. He becomes agitated by outside criticism, perceiving them as personal attacks. Increasingly he see's a world of 'us' and 'them'. He will defend any and all policies that find criticisms from without, despite the fact that they might affect him every bit as much as his international critics. He has lost all objectivity. He will happily surrender his freedoms and sleep walk to fascism.

I think it could be interesting to see what would happen if the roles were reversed.
What if a country got caught spying on the US?
Instead of Americans being all like, "Oh, everyone does it. Deal with it.", they'd probably be gearing up for an invasion.

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