Transgender and You: A guide to interacting the the trans public

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Zachary Amaranth:

ninjaRiv:
The hostility you always seem to bring to the table. Maybe I didn't mean offended but hostile and overly defensive for no reason.

I don't know why you're inferring hostility, but it doesn't change the point that saying shemale isn't like a slur because some people like isn't correct. After all, as I said, some black people are fine with use of the word "nigger." That doesn't make it not a slur. I don't know why you got all hostile and defensive, but you decided to take umbrage instead of acknowledge a valid point.

You can find someone fine with most slurs that target them. That doesn't make them not slurs. Now, for the love of Grumpy Cat, stop trying to make things personal.

CAPTCHA: Well done. Thank you, Captcha.

Acknowledged the point. Twice. Three times if you include my second post to you. Acknowledged it AND admitted I hadn't got it totally right.

I take it a little personally because you ran at me with hostility. Plus I've witnessed you attack people before, multiple times, so you can see why I'd take it as such.

Rosiv:

TehCookie:

Zachary Amaranth:

And as science and psychology disagree with you, it would appear that it is subjective. Even if you wish it not to be so.

You're so worried about lying, yet you're stating untruthful things as fact. That's....Interesting.

There's a difference between sex and gender, sex is biologically what you are while gender is what you feel. Gender is subjective, sex is not.

Sex can be just as subjective and vague as gender,like in the case of intersexed individuals, so to say otherwise is kind of false.

But how many intersexed people are there? They are such a minority as to not even register on most charts. An absolute anomaly.

Also, it still doesn't mean it's subjective. You can be one of three things: male, female or intersexed and no matter what you wear or what surgery you have it will never change the fact you were born one of those three things.

Our society is structured on on a fixed male-female binary which we're immediately suppose to assume based on a person's appearance,presentation,chromosomes or mannerisms. We're having a hard enough time with women's equality, agency, and visibiliy (as the escapist forums exemplify).

So I understand why it's hard for people to deal with it at first.I know I had difficulty with it -especially gender neutral pronouns in casual conversation-, but I always remembered that my trans* friends went through a hell of a lot more heartbreak/discrimination than I ever will so I thought it was the LEAST I could do to be a fucking decent people, call them by their preferred pronouns and care about their views on the topic unconditionally.

I hear a lot about the binary being set in stone because of genetics, biology, or organs you're born with...but nature does not work in exclusive, fixed categories for everyone and western culture's constructs of what constitutes 'appropriate' or 'natural' is so laughably outdated (look at sexual orientation -attraction to people, lack thereof or just healthy sexuality in general- it's taken over 100+ years for western science to admit that it's natural, diverse and not the result of mental pathologies or conscious choices to 'deviate' from what society considers 'normal')

And fuck this 'oh you're so compassionate for treating people with the bare minimum respect you'd normally give non-trans* people'. There are no cookies or points to be won for fake tumblr activists paying lip service to Queer and Trans* people but not living what they say. LISTEN to people like OP and others suffering and living harsh lives for their class, race, gender, sexual orientation or ability or whatever it may be, only then can you begin to understand.

They're not asking you to become trans*, gay or anything you know you're not. Nor are they asking you to to be attracted to them (most people could care less is a stranger approves of their lives or bodies when they're not out to impress you), they are asking you to LISTEN and to understand if you wish to know 'why'- it's not their obligation to explain themselves btw, but when they do it's usually for your benefit as much as it is for theirs-. It doesn't take that much energy to imagine what that would be like if it were you.

I'm a cis male, but people matter, words matter, and how we relate to each other matters if we are to be serious about 'inclusion' 'diversity' and 'equality' for everyone.

TehCookie:

There's a difference between sex and gender, sex is biologically what you are while gender is what you feel. Gender is subjective, sex is not.

We've been through this before: your definition of what makes a woman and the general definition used biologically are not. You can assert it until you're blue in the face, but you're still wrong. And having called us things like abominations in the past, I'm pretty sure it's not a scientifically informed viewpoint to begin with.

Believe what you want, but don't try and tell me what sex is if you yourself disagree with the concept from a biological/medical/scientific standpoint. You can be as layperson as you want, but it doesn't change my argument any. and, to be honest, if your views contradict medicine and reasoning, the problem probably isn't with the medicine or reasoning. It's sort of like that whole religion thing. You can choose to believe that the Earth is flat, the center of the universe, free of evolution, whatever. You can't, however, change the facts.

Speaking of, sex and gender ARE different, but that's not relevant here, as we're talking specifically sex. Transwomen are, generally speaking, treated by and considered as women by the medical community. Transmen the same, except treated as men. And as we have literally both been here and done that with this topic, I can't help but think even trying to argue this point is an exercise in futility.

no...thats straight and gay respectively. change cloths and identity and snip and add all you want. chromosome are chromosomes.

If you happen to fit as a gay, all the power to you. But if you're born male and like men...you're gay (or at least bi). don't lie to me.

Also, omni and pansexual is a bullshit phrase so people feel like special snow flakes. You're bi.
but i digress.

Why should chromosomes even define sex solely? Chromosomes are just blueprints for our body. The result is our physical selfs, our phenotype, so to say they arent truely women , when they share the phenotype, which is the whole point of the genes in the first place is a bit off.

As for whether its gay to date a MtF, i cant really say one way or the other. There have been gay men dating pre op MtF for their "endowments" But straight men have also engaged in relationships with them.

If you happen to fit as a gay, all the power to you. But if you're born male and like men...you're gay (or at least bi). don't lie to me.

So then by that corollary, liking a FtM would be "straight"? Im not sure if youve seen pics of FtM after HRT, but they pass really well, voice and all. Watch a documentary on them or something, but you can see the effects yourself, since i dont know how to post pics.

And since when has 'shemale' and 'tranny' been hate words?
'shemale' is a specific type of transexual (male to female while keeping the penis) and 'tranny' is just a short hand for transexual. Hell, we always try and use the least amount of syllables when describing some one, thats why i use 'black' instead of african america (p.s. african american is actually the racist term), white, chick, or guy.

when the hell did every common word become so fucking offensive?

IMO, the words "shemale" and "tranny" are offensive because they are terms used in the porn industry. Its akin to calling a gay guy a twink, or a hot woman/man, MILF/DILF. Or a women with large breasts a BBW. Its really just crude. If you want a shorthand to refer to transgender/sexual people there is always "trans" , which has even less syllables than "tranny" and AFAIK, not offensive.

ok, im not a bigot, and dont want to come off as a hater (peoples choices are theirs whether i like their decision or not) But dont act like a transexual who was born male is a legit woman. until we can alter peoples genes, thats not going to be the case. You can 'identify' as the opposite sex all you want...but dont act you where born with a uterus or a penis when the opposite is true.

I know you haven't had time to respond to my previous statements, but still, why arent they legit? Not everyone is born with a penis and male, uterus and female. There are exceptions,like intersexed individuals who lack either the chromosomes or genitals, and still by the medical community and others are sanctioned and respected in whatever gender they conform to.

And its hard to not view you as a hater/bigot when you cant even have polite discourse.

omni and pansexual is a bullshit phrase so people feel like special snow flakes

change cloths and identity and snip and add all you want.

You cant see how those statements might be taken the wrong way? As glib and offensive?

Abomination:
But how many intersexed people are there? They are such a minority as to not even register on most charts. An absolute anomaly.

That's kind of loaded, especially since the common response was to "treat" the condition. That's largely akin to Iran's "no homosexuals" policy.

Also, it still doesn't mean it's subjective. You can be one of three things: male, female or intersexed and no matter what you wear or what surgery you have it will never change the fact you were born one of those three things.

You can be born with a vestigial tail, third nipple, or cleft palate. Doesn't mean it in any way actually defines you.

@Abomination

But how many intersexed people are there? They are such a minority as to not even register on most charts. An absolute anomaly.

Also, it still doesn't mean it's subjective. You can be one of three things: male, female or intersexed and no matter what you wear or what surgery you have it will never change the fact you were born one of those three things.

A minority doesn't mean they don't count, and as for numbers probably less than 1%. Being a "absolute anomaly" doesn't mean you don't exist, it just means you are statistically abnormal, infrequently occurring. Yes men "generally" have penises and women "generally" have vagina's , but to say there are no exceptions what so ever is a bit too dogmatic and IMO fallacious.

And for the sex being subjective, i meant there arent clear cases, as in people can think they are either male or female, but when seeing a doctor or gynecologist come to realize that they are genetically something else. Its not like most people get a genetic screening anyways. We just assume we are male or female regardless of chromosomes due to our phenotype at birth.

This is my guide to interacting with the trans public.

1. Treat them like anyone else you meet.

the end.

ninjaRiv:

I take it a little personally because you ran at me with hostility.

Now now, no need to lie. I said nothing hostile. I addressed your point with a comparison and said that it was no different.

You keep inferring anger, hostility and the like. Whatever floats your boat, I guess, but it's not true. Not at all. And since you apparently have no quibble with the argument that it is like a racial slur, and you claim to have dropped it, maybe you should drop the rest of this, too. It's tantamount to namecalling, yet you're doing it at the same time you protest hostility that isn't there.

That's kind of....Well, it's hypocritical behaviour.

Proto Taco:
*Snip*

To anyone reading this, I'm going to say this right now - I'm about to say something that will be very controversial to all sides of the debate.

I agree with much of what the OP said and am a big advocate of tolerance / acceptance of transgenders. However, the notion that transgenders are 100% the gender that they're seeking to be is more than debatable and is not something you can treat as an absolute fact. The technicalities of what makes someone a particular gender goes far more than what genitals or even hormones they have (chromosomes are one thing that spring to mind) and this is a subject where I simply don't think there is an easy answer for.

Now that does not mean that they should be condemned in any way for their unique status; far from it. The way transgenders get treated by many people is truly abysmal and goes to show just how screwed up / backwards our societies are even today. However, I do reject the notion that the state of a transgender's... well.... gender is something you can always say is an absolute certainty.

Zachary Amaranth:

Abomination:
But how many intersexed people are there? They are such a minority as to not even register on most charts. An absolute anomaly.

That's kind of loaded, especially since the common response was to "treat" the condition. That's largely akin to Iran's "no homosexuals" policy.

How is it loaded to point out the statistics of a demographic? Intersex is a VERY tiny minority and it most certainly is an anomaly. I'm not advocating for purges, invasive studies or discrimination... I just don't think their existence is reason enough to undermine the idea that sex is determined before birth.

Also, it still doesn't mean it's subjective. You can be one of three things: male, female or intersexed and no matter what you wear or what surgery you have it will never change the fact you were born one of those three things.

You can be born with a vestigial tail, third nipple, or cleft palate. Doesn't mean it in any way actually defines you.

It is a defining trait, however. And you will always have been born with one of those things. It need not define you but it'd be stupid to demand that someone recognize you as never having possessed one of those things when you had it surgically removed.

If you want to identify as a female, you can identify as a female.

If you want to identify as a male, you can identify as a male.

If you want to identify as both or neither, you can do it to your hearts content.

I get absolutely no satisfaction in calling you by your "biological" (which isn't even 100% true) gender when you preferred to be called by your social/psychological/chemical identity. Even if it was the scientifically correct pronoun, which it isn't even entirely, what would I possibly gain from using it? I would be hurting somebody for what? My obnoxious, neckbearded arse?

Even if the opposite pronoun to what you identify with was "factual", it would still accomplish nothing but personal attacks. Just let people who they want to be; if I want to identify as a fucking dragon, as long as I didn't hurt anybody, where is the problem? Human beings transcend their biology constantly; our language, currency, politics and sociological world are entirely psychological, so why is blurring the lines of gender, something far more chemical and psychological than biological, considered so far out of the question?

No one is getting hurt, and that is the only thing that matters in this discussion.

Zachary Amaranth:

ninjaRiv:

I take it a little personally because you ran at me with hostility.

Now now, no need to lie. I said nothing hostile. I addressed your point with a comparison and said that it was no different.

You keep inferring anger, hostility and the like. Whatever floats your boat, I guess, but it's not true. Not at all. And since you apparently have no quibble with the argument that it is like a racial slur, and you claim to have dropped it, maybe you should drop the rest of this, too. It's tantamount to namecalling, yet you're doing it at the same time you protest hostility that isn't there.

That's kind of....Well, it's hypocritical behaviour.

Perhaps I did infer. I personally don't think I did but it's entirely possible. In fact, yeah, I'll drop it. Heck, I'll even accept that you mean no ill will and that any hostility is due to what I've seen of your posts in many other threads. Heck, maybe some of those are just due to you having a natural hostile tone. I just wanted to point it out. I continued to defend myself because I still felt you were being hostile nature. So if I did infer I'm sorry, buddy. Really. I just like pointing things out... And defending myself when I feel attacked.

EDIT: Calling me a liar instead of saying I made a mistake is pretty hostile...

Rosiv:
@Abomination

But how many intersexed people are there? They are such a minority as to not even register on most charts. An absolute anomaly.

Also, it still doesn't mean it's subjective. You can be one of three things: male, female or intersexed and no matter what you wear or what surgery you have it will never change the fact you were born one of those three things.

A minority doesn't mean they don't count, and as for numbers probably less than 1%. Being a "absolute anomaly" doesn't mean you don't exist, it just means you are statistically abnormal, infrequently occurring. Yes men "generally" have penises and women "generally" have vagina's , but to say there are no exceptions what so ever is a bit too dogmatic and IMO fallacious.

And for the sex being subjective, i meant there arent clear cases, as in people can think they are either male or female, but when seeing a doctor or gynecologist come to realize that they are genetically something else. Its not like most people get a genetic screening anyways. We just assume we are male or female regardless of chromosomes due to our phenotype at birth.

The thing is you need to be practical with this scenario. Intersex does exist, but in such few numbers as to not even be a factor in the discussion other than being brought up as the ONLY exception. It's similar to someone saying that "humans have one head" then someone brings up the concept of Siamese twins as proof that it isn't true. Yes, a tiny exception exists, it is an anomaly - something went wrong in the womb. We do not deny that Siamese twins exist but they shouldn't be taken into consideration when determining where the brain is located.

In the situation where you discover you are a different sex than you were... "diagnosed" as then yes, you are right in the fact that (should you transgender) than your new gender IS your sex. But again... it's an anomaly and hardly happens.

Abomination:

Rosiv:

TehCookie:

There's a difference between sex and gender, sex is biologically what you are while gender is what you feel. Gender is subjective, sex is not.

Sex can be just as subjective and vague as gender,like in the case of intersexed individuals, so to say otherwise is kind of false.

But how many intersexed people are there? They are such a minority as to not even register on most charts. An absolute anomaly.

Also, it still doesn't mean it's subjective. You can be one of three things: male, female or intersexed and no matter what you wear or what surgery you have it will never change the fact you were born one of those three things.

Remembers boys, girls, and other. Check with Abomination here for approval before you consider yourself a gender. His opinion about you means more then yours.

Abomination:
It need not define you but it'd be stupid to demand that someone recognize you as never having possessed one of those things when you had it surgically removed.

So I've got this friend. Well, he's more of a casual acquaintance. We were buddies in high school, but we drifted apart. It happens. He was unable to walk unassisted for most of his life. A few years back, he had some new procedure for whatever was wrong with his back that made his legs work poorly. You can tell we weren't exactly soulmates here.

If he doesn't go around labeling himself handicapped these days, is he actively hiding it? Should I make sure to remind him that he was?

I'm a bit lost here, because I'm not entirely sure where people are demanding you pretend they never had those things. Being treated like the "desired" sex is not remotely equivalent. Nobody's going to go around insisting my high school buddy label himself by his former condition/ability.

Look, this all stems from a guy effectively arguing that a transwoman's still a dude. Do you agree? He said that calling someone their current sex would be a LIE. Do you agree that calling a transwoman a woman or a transman a man is a lie?

If not, why is this going on? Has anyone actually said that their past should be totally erased? I know I didn't. However, from a biological standpoint this is all far less significant than he (and a lot of people) try and make it out to be when they try and enforce their own prejudices with "fact." By comparison, what 90s gamer was arguing is that it's too much effort to not refer to my buddy as handicapped. I know it's a rough analogy, but go with it.

To clarify, since I'm being accuse by someone else of being hostile and the like, I'm really not trying to bust your balls. I'm mostly confused. I'm not sure where this is coming from or where it's going. And now I'm just curious as well.

Rosiv:

no...thats straight and gay respectively. change cloths and identity and snip and add all you want. chromosome are chromosomes.

If you happen to fit as a gay, all the power to you. But if you're born male and like men...you're gay (or at least bi). don't lie to me.

Also, omni and pansexual is a bullshit phrase so people feel like special snow flakes. You're bi.
but i digress.

Why should chromosomes even define sex solely? Chromosomes are just blueprints for our body. The result is our physical selfs, our phenotype, so to say they arent truely women , when they share the phenotype, which is the whole point of the genes in the first place is a bit off.

Because thats how it works. Gay may be a choice or orientatition that isnt defined by genes (and dont anyone get on my case about this, if you deny its a choice or non gene related, you're throwing the idea of free will and choice under the bus and i quiet frankly find that more insulting to the gay community), but gender/sex is.
If you're born with a dick, you're a dude, hermaphrodite not withstanding.
And yes chromosomes and genes are a blue print for your body, they tell what sex/gender you will be. the X and Y chromosome.
If it doesn't, then whats to stop me from artificially making my skin darker and claiming im of Sub saharan decent? Oh wait i forgot, that would be considered racist despite what i feel and i still wouldn't have the body structure (both skeletal, mental, genetic, ect) to prove i was of that race even if i feel like it.

Look, it you're trans, and want to identify as the opposite sex, fine, but just remember that just because you 'feel' like the opposite sex, doesn't mean you are, especially on a genetic level.

As for whether its gay to date a MtF, i cant really say one way or the other. There have been gay men dating pre op MtF for their "endowments" But straight men have also engaged in relationships with them.

if you're a guy dating a trans person who was a guy and has a dick...you're probably gay (or bi). If the penis is removed...its still kind of gay whether or not you might be gay, depends on your knowledge of them being what ever and what you enjoy out of it....still kind of gay in my opinion.

If you happen to fit as a gay, all the power to you. But if you're born male and like men...you're gay (or at least bi). don't lie to me.

So then by that corollary, liking a FtM would be "straight"? Im not sure if youve seen pics of FtM after HRT, but they pass really well, voice and all. Watch a documentary on them or something, but you can see the effects yourself, since i dont know how to post pics.

type [ i m g ] infront of the pics image url address and [ / i m g ] at the end.
no spaces. should work.
FtM is actually possible? didn't know a penis transplant was possible.
*looks it up*
turns out it was first successfully done in 2006 but had to be reversed 15 days later. turns out too many issues go into it working and its waay too damn risky and expensive.

so even though they look like dudes....they still have everything down below and are women.
and personally...ugly ass women (hey, im not attracted to male features, of course im gonna think they make ugly women)

And since when has 'shemale' and 'tranny' been hate words?
'shemale' is a specific type of transexual (male to female while keeping the penis) and 'tranny' is just a short hand for transexual. Hell, we always try and use the least amount of syllables when describing some one, thats why i use 'black' instead of african america (p.s. african american is actually the racist term), white, chick, or guy.

when the hell did every common word become so fucking offensive?

IMO, the words "shemale" and "tranny" are offensive because they are terms used in the porn industry. Its akin to calling a gay guy a twink, or a hot woman/man, MILF/DILF. Or a women with large breasts a BBW. Its really just crude. If you want a shorthand to refer to transgender/sexual people there is always "trans" , which has even less syllables than "tranny" and AFAIK, not offensive.

a BBW is a 'big bodied woman', it means fat woman. also trans just doesnt roll off the tongue...words that end in 'y' are fun to say. and of course you wouldn't use MILF its an acronym containing the word 'fuck'. hences why useing the word 'FUBAR' gets you at least a PG rating on tv.

ok, im not a bigot, and dont want to come off as a hater (peoples choices are theirs whether i like their decision or not) But dont act like a transexual who was born male is a legit woman. until we can alter peoples genes, thats not going to be the case. You can 'identify' as the opposite sex all you want...but dont act you where born with a uterus or a penis when the opposite is true.

I know you haven't had time to respond to my previous statements, but still, why arent they legit? Not everyone is born with a penis and male, uterus and female. There are exceptions,like intersexed individuals who lack either the chromosomes or genitals, and still by the medical community and others are sanctioned and respected in whatever gender they conform to.

And its hard to not view you as a hater/bigot when you cant even have polite discourse.

a hermaphrodite or genetic mutation is an exception, they had no choice in the matter and are considered a 'mutation'.
are you saying trans people suffer from mutations? because thats going in dangerous territory.

And sorry you feel that way, but just because i have strong opinions and choose not to think exactly the way others think, even though it doesn't effect my ability to treat them as human beings doesn't make one a bigot.

Example...i don't like homosexuality. Do i criticize others for their choice in life style? no. And i going to be an ass to them because of it? No. I can tolerate it just fine and go on with my life, doesn't mean i have to like it.
That doesn't make me a bigot does it? After all, im not hating the person, i can get along with a gay person just fine and regularly do, i just dislike the idea of the lifestyle and find it gross. Its my opinion that isn't shown in any of my day to day actions.

What people, especially on the left, fail to realize that tolerance and acceptance are two completely things, you can't force anyone to accept anything they do not wish to. Because thats fascism. And if someone doesn't like X group for what ever reason. FINE thats their choice. just like its X groups choice to live like they do. If you force it, then all you'll do is create resentment.

omni and pansexual is a bullshit phrase so people feel like special snow flakes

change cloths and identity and snip and add all you want.

You cant see how those statements might be taken the wrong way? As glib and offensive?

Probably, but then i'd just tell people to cool their jets.
Im really not concerned with what people find offensive.

If i got offended about my race/ethnicity/religion/ect as much as other people got offended about theirs, i'd never get anything accomplished.
Hell, my personal mantra is "Harden the fuck up"
Ever seen that pic of D-day with that quote?
Yeah, i take that to heart.
image

And if they find my opinion that trans people are not truly the gender they want to be as offensive or doesn't fit their personal view, well...thats honestly not my problem.

Its not like im denying any of their rights to vote or anything, im not promoting hate, i just think alot of what they want people think is bullshit.

Zachary Amaranth:

Abomination:
It need not define you but it'd be stupid to demand that someone recognize you as never having possessed one of those things when you had it surgically removed.

So I've got this friend. Well, he's more of a casual acquaintance. We were buddies in high school, but we drifted apart. It happens. He was unable to walk unassisted for most of his life. A few years back, he had some new procedure for whatever was wrong with his back that made his legs work poorly. You can tell we weren't exactly soulmates here.

If he doesn't go around labeling himself handicapped these days, is he actively hiding it? Should I make sure to remind him that he was?

I'm a bit lost here, because I'm not entirely sure where people are demanding you pretend they never had those things. Being treated like the "desired" sex is not remotely equivalent. Nobody's going to go around insisting my high school buddy label himself by his former condition/ability.

Look, this all stems from a guy effectively arguing that a transwoman's still a dude. Do you agree? He said that calling someone their current sex would be a LIE. Do you agree that calling a transwoman a woman or a transman a man is a lie?

If not, why is this going on? Has anyone actually said that their past should be totally erased? I know I didn't. However, from a biological standpoint this is all far less significant than he (and a lot of people) try and make it out to be when they try and enforce their own prejudices with "fact." By comparison, what 90s gamer was arguing is that it's too much effort to not refer to my buddy as handicapped. I know it's a rough analogy, but go with it.

To clarify, since I'm being accuse by someone else of being hostile and the like, I'm really not trying to bust your balls. I'm mostly confused. I'm not sure where this is coming from or where it's going. And now I'm just curious as well.

So your acquaintance now has 100% mobility? One could never tell he used to be disabled? He requires no assistance with his mobility?

For all intents and purposes it sounds like he had a bone shifted in his back and it fixed the problem. Transitioning from female to male sex is not a matter of shifting a bone... and it requires constant upkeep. He will always have been born with the issue he had. When he applies for insurance he will be asked if he has ever been in hospital and will be required to have his doctor describe what happened.

A trans-woman's gender is female but their sex is male. A trans-male's gender is male but their sex is female. I'll call them by whatever societal norm they wish to be called but that doesn't change that I consider someone to be the sex they are - which will always be what they were born as (being misdiagnosed doesn't change your sex, it just means you were identified incorrectly - someone mistaking iron for silver doesn't change the fact it's iron).

Where's it going? It usually enters the territory of people being accused of bigotry for thinking something but acting differently. "You might call me a woman, treat me like a woman but you still THINK I'm a man because I was born with a penis and that's offensive".

The Apple BOOM:
Woot, finally a thread where I can ask questions.

The thing I don't understand, is why someone would feel the need to change themselves physically. Why do they need to change their genitals just because they think differently than most people of the same sex?

Well on a fundamental level a transgender person has the brain of the gender they identify as, there are fundamental differences in the structure of a genetic man vs that of a transgender woman.

So the reasoning why they want to change their appearance is because they on a fundamental neurological level are that gender they want to become.

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn20032-transsexual-differences-caught-on-brain-scan.html

Edit - Also Transgender people come to Canada we love you! We've actually in the process of passing into law the addition of Gender Identity and Gender expression

The purpose of this Act is to extend the laws in Canada to give effect, within the purview of matters coming within the legislative authority of Parliament, to the principle that all individuals should have an opportunity equal with other individuals to make for themselves the lives that they are able and wish to have and to have their needs accommodated, consistent with their duties and obligations as members of society, without being hindered in or prevented from doing so by discriminatory practices based on race, national or ethnic origin, colour, religion, age, sex, sexual orientation, marital status, family status, disability or conviction for an offence for which a pardon has been granted or in respect of which a record suspension has been ordered.

So basically it will very very soon become illegal to discriminate someone based on their Gender Identity or Gender Expression. And I couldn't be happier that we're taking this stance on a NATIONAL level!

Abomination:
Transitioning from female to male sex is not a matter of shifting a bone... and it requires constant upkeep.

Really? That's going to be your arbitrary line in the sand? Upkeep?

A trans-woman's gender is female but their sex is male. A trans-male's gender is male but their sex is female.

False. Which is part of why they're called transsexuals and the common term is sex reassignment surgery. As I've said, biological sex is far less anal than most of you seem to consider it to be, and it sounds like you're just trying to justify your own prejudices.

someone mistaking iron for silver doesn't change the fact it's iron

Iron cannot reasonably become silver from a metallurgical standpoint. It also very likely doesn't have silver components.

"You might call me a woman, treat me like a woman but you still THINK I'm a man because I was born with a penis and that's offensive".

Except it kinda is offensive. I know you posited that to be ridiculous, but calling a transwoman a man or identifying them as such is offensive and inaccurate. Sorry, but that is kinda...Bigoted. And you're taking a swift turn into Orson Scott Card territory, dude. It seriously sounds like you're asking me to be tolerant of your intolerance.

Weird that you are so quick to defend homosexuals from statements that are no less grounded.

Cameron Everett:

Edit - Also Transgender people come to Canada we love you! We've actually in the process of passing into law the addition of Gender Identity and Gender expression

Due to my medical situation, I'm only partially employed and probably wouldn't qualify on any application. You think they would swing some sort of refugee status for me? I mean, I do live in a country where our lawmakers approve of bullying/violence/other harm against us, so....

Zachary Amaranth:

Cameron Everett:

Edit - Also Transgender people come to Canada we love you! We've actually in the process of passing into law the addition of Gender Identity and Gender expression

Due to my medical situation, I'm only partially employed and probably wouldn't qualify on any application. You think they would swing some sort of refugee status for me? I mean, I do live in a country where our lawmakers approve of bullying/violence/other harm against us, so....

If I could snap my fingers and let in people who are facing such discrimination in their home countries in I would. The world is a much better place when we all treat humans as HUMAN BEINGS.

ninjaRiv:

Zachary Amaranth:

ninjaRiv:

I take it a little personally because you ran at me with hostility.

Now now, no need to lie. I said nothing hostile. I addressed your point with a comparison and said that it was no different.

You keep inferring anger, hostility and the like. Whatever floats your boat, I guess, but it's not true. Not at all. And since you apparently have no quibble with the argument that it is like a racial slur, and you claim to have dropped it, maybe you should drop the rest of this, too. It's tantamount to namecalling, yet you're doing it at the same time you protest hostility that isn't there.

That's kind of....Well, it's hypocritical behaviour.

Perhaps I did infer. I personally don't think I did but it's entirely possible. In fact, yeah, I'll drop it. Heck, I'll even accept that you mean no ill will and that any hostility is due to what I've seen of your posts in many other threads. Heck, maybe some of those are just due to you having a natural hostile tone. I just wanted to point it out. I continued to defend myself because I still felt you were being hostile nature. So if I did infer I'm sorry, buddy. Really. I just like pointing things out... And defending myself when I feel attacked.

EDIT: Calling me a liar instead of saying I made a mistake is pretty hostile...

See, even as you say you'll concede the point, you're making attacks and accusations.

And for the record, when someone's lying, saying that they're lying is not hostile. It's a fact. I'm sorry that the truth offends you, but perhaps that's telling of the real reason you went on the attack in the first place.

Don't lie about me as you're attacking me for things I didn't do or say. It's really that simple.

Cameron Everett:

Zachary Amaranth:

Cameron Everett:

Edit - Also Transgender people come to Canada we love you! We've actually in the process of passing into law the addition of Gender Identity and Gender expression

Due to my medical situation, I'm only partially employed and probably wouldn't qualify on any application. You think they would swing some sort of refugee status for me? I mean, I do live in a country where our lawmakers approve of bullying/violence/other harm against us, so....

If I could snap my fingers and let in people who are facing such discrimination in their home countries in I would. The world is a much better place when we all treat humans as HUMAN BEINGS.

I was mostly being facetious. Although, now I'm depressed. Damn it.

Edit: That wasn't aimed at you. Just the situation. :p

dversion:

Subscriptism:
OK, here's a phrase I don't understand.

If someone says "trans-woman" does that mean MtF or FtM?

They are a woman who was once gender identified as a man.

That really doesn't help. Born with a male or female body?

Zachary Amaranth:

Abomination:
Transitioning from female to male sex is not a matter of shifting a bone... and it requires constant upkeep.

Really? That's going to be your arbitrary line in the sand? Upkeep?

If the treatment was to cease then the attributes of the individual's sex would slowly resurface. How can one claim to be something when the costume of the thing they're claiming to be keep falling apart?

A trans-woman's gender is female but their sex is male. A trans-male's gender is male but their sex is female.

False. Which is part of why they're called transsexuals and the common term is sex reassignment surgery. As I've said, biological sex is far less anal than most of you seem to consider it to be, and it sounds like you're just trying to justify your own prejudices.

I didn't know that trans-females produced their own eggs or trans-males produced their own sperm. A trans can't go all the way because they are not all the way. It has nothing to do with prejudice - again, I would never deny one a job on the basis of their trans-gender status, would treat them any worse or insult them for any means. I simply consider them to be the sex they were born as.

someone mistaking iron for silver doesn't change the fact it's iron

Iron cannot reasonably become silver from a metallurgical standpoint. It also very likely doesn't have silver components.

And a woman can not become a man from a sexual reproductive standpoint. Yet people can identify a piece of iron as silver or incorrectly assess a boy's sex as female.

"You might call me a woman, treat me like a woman but you still THINK I'm a man because I was born with a penis and that's offensive".

Except it kinda is offensive. I know you posited that to be ridiculous, but calling a transwoman a man or identifying them as such is offensive and inaccurate. Sorry, but that is kinda...Bigoted. And you're taking a swift turn into Orson Scott Card territory, dude. It seriously sounds like you're asking me to be tolerant of your intolerance.

Weird that you are so quick to defend homosexuals from statements that are no less grounded.

I defend homosexuals because they're entitled to love who they want and act how they want. Transgenders are able to love who they want and act how they want. I'm not about to suddenly open my sexual options up to men because homosexuality isn't a bad thing and I'm not about to change how I sexually identify people because transgenderism isn't a bad thing.

It has everything to do with MY sexual identification, yet somehow having one that's different to yours offends you... yet I'm not offended by you having yours. Who's the bigot again?

Subscriptism:

dversion:

Subscriptism:
OK, here's a phrase I don't understand.

If someone says "trans-woman" does that mean MtF or FtM?

They are a woman who was once gender identified as a man.

That really doesn't help. Born with a male or female body?

Born with a male body, identifies as female.
Sorry, I wasn't clear before.

It's just pointless to fight over gender, why can't people simply identify how they please without being called out as "abnormal" or are plainly refused the right to be called whatever they like?

AWAR:
It's just pointless to fight over gender, why can't people simply identify how they please without being called out as "abnormal" or are plainly refused the right to be called whatever they like?

Because the amount of people who are transgender is such a small minority it hardly registers on any charts, and the world shouldn't conform to a minorities standard.

Abomination:
If the treatment was to cease then the attributes of the individual's sex would slowly resurface. How can one claim to be something when the costume of the thing they're claiming to be keep falling apart?

I think I'd agree with you if they were pre-op. If they were post-op, well, they'd hardly re-grow their original genitals.

Still being polite to the transgendered person and referring to them how they please, of course. But it would be difficult for me to fully think of a woman as a woman if she had a penis.

Edit: But then I suppose it's just different strokes for different folks. As long as you're being polite then no harm is done. Can't really get bent out of shape about the whole thing.

Zachary Amaranth:

TehCookie:

There's a difference between sex and gender, sex is biologically what you are while gender is what you feel. Gender is subjective, sex is not.

We've been through this before: your definition of what makes a woman and the general definition used biologically are not. You can assert it until you're blue in the face, but you're still wrong. And having called us things like abominations in the past, I'm pretty sure it's not a scientifically informed viewpoint to begin with.

Believe what you want, but don't try and tell me what sex is if you yourself disagree with the concept from a biological/medical/scientific standpoint. You can be as layperson as you want, but it doesn't change my argument any. and, to be honest, if your views contradict medicine and reasoning, the problem probably isn't with the medicine or reasoning. It's sort of like that whole religion thing. You can choose to believe that the Earth is flat, the center of the universe, free of evolution, whatever. You can't, however, change the facts.

Speaking of, sex and gender ARE different, but that's not relevant here, as we're talking specifically sex. Transwomen are, generally speaking, treated by and considered as women by the medical community. Transmen the same, except treated as men. And as we have literally both been here and done that with this topic, I can't help but think even trying to argue this point is an exercise in futility.

How am I wrong? Since you are an expert of sex and gender tell me how to identify the difference between male and female. No trans business, no mutations or abnormalities, just sex.

Preferable with a source so I know it's not your ass.

Caiphus:

Abomination:
If the treatment was to cease then the attributes of the individual's sex would slowly resurface. How can one claim to be something when the costume of the thing they're claiming to be keep falling apart?

I think I'd agree with you if they were pre-op. If they were post-op, well, they'd hardly re-grow their original genitals.

Still being polite to the transgendered person and referring to them how they please, of course. But it would be difficult for me to fully think of a woman as a woman if she had a penis.

In both scenarios, removing a man's penis doesn't magically make them stop producing testosterone. If the hormonal treatments cease their breasts will "deflate" unless they're implants and if that's the case... well... it makes the whole thing about costumes even more accurate.

TehCookie:
How am I wrong? Since you are an expert of sex and gender tell me how to identify the difference between male and female. No trans business, no mutations or abnormalities, just sex.

Preferable with a source so I know it's not your ass.

I would just like to say I would be amazed if someone could tell another person's sex by only using their OWN ass. That would be an accomplishment.

Jegsimmons:

Because the amount of people who are transgender is such a small minority it hardly registers on any charts, and the world shouldn't conform to a minorities standard.

Only there are actual people behind the charts, and what kind of messed up logic is that anyway? How is not being a discriminatory dick conforming to any standards other than politeness and respect?

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