Transgender and You: A guide to interacting the the trans public

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TehCookie:

Zachary Amaranth:

TehCookie:

There's a difference between sex and gender, sex is biologically what you are while gender is what you feel. Gender is subjective, sex is not.

We've been through this before: your definition of what makes a woman and the general definition used biologically are not. You can assert it until you're blue in the face, but you're still wrong. And having called us things like abominations in the past, I'm pretty sure it's not a scientifically informed viewpoint to begin with.

Believe what you want, but don't try and tell me what sex is if you yourself disagree with the concept from a biological/medical/scientific standpoint. You can be as layperson as you want, but it doesn't change my argument any. and, to be honest, if your views contradict medicine and reasoning, the problem probably isn't with the medicine or reasoning. It's sort of like that whole religion thing. You can choose to believe that the Earth is flat, the center of the universe, free of evolution, whatever. You can't, however, change the facts.

Speaking of, sex and gender ARE different, but that's not relevant here, as we're talking specifically sex. Transwomen are, generally speaking, treated by and considered as women by the medical community. Transmen the same, except treated as men. And as we have literally both been here and done that with this topic, I can't help but think even trying to argue this point is an exercise in futility.

How am I wrong? Since you are an expert of sex and gender tell me how to identify the difference between male and female. No trans business, no mutations or abnormalities, just sex.

Preferable with a source so I know it's not your ass.

You identity the difference by their physical components, its not really that hard.
Thats the protocol doctors have been using for ages. Phenotype defines sex, not genotype.

http://www.mcgeorge.edu/documents/publications/05_Curtis_FINAL.pdf

Why be so dogmatic about it anyways? Will it be a big inconvenience to call a transgender women
a women? Even if you see it as wrong, by doing so you don't cause any pain to them.

Abomination:
If the treatment was to cease then the attributes of the individual's sex would slowly resurface. How can one claim to be something when the costume of the thing they're claiming to be keep falling apart?

I didn't know that a transwoman would start to grow a penis again without treatment.

Some characteristics will return, others will not, and at the end of the day, many "real" women undergo HRT to avoid similar side effects. Huh.

I didn't know that trans-females produced their own eggs or trans-males produced their own sperm.

Thankfully, that's categorically unnecessary. these are arbitrary lines in the sand.

again, I would never deny one a job on the basis of their trans-gender status, would treat them any worse or insult them for any means. I simply consider them to be the sex they were born as.

Except, by default, you're treating us worse and insulting us. Thanks for that.

And a woman can not become a man from a sexual reproductive standpoint.

How fortunate, then, that reproduction doesn't really matter.

It has everything to do with MY sexual identification, yet somehow having one that's different to yours offends you... yet I'm not offended by you having yours. Who's the bigot again?

You argued with Heimholtz Watson when he used that same line on homosexuals. That's hypocritical of you.

TehCookie:

How am I wrong? Since you are an expert of sex and gender tell me how to identify the difference between male and female. No trans business, no mutations or abnormalities, just sex.

Preferable with a source so I know it's not your ass.

Apparently, being able to do research and know what I'm talking about makes me an expert on a subject. How odd.

Someone already posted evidence before I got back to this thread, but then, you've been given evidence before. Will you change your mind this time, acknowledge you're wrong, or just say the same false stuff in the next thread? Will you once again ask for evidence, despite (once again) having been pointed towards it?

chikusho:

Amaror:

First: You can think of my story whatever you like, i don't care.
Second: I never said "one of them", granted i said "one", but that was just a formulation of mine, because i couldn't think of another way to write it. I mean, give me a break, it's not my native language or anything.
Third: I am not sure you know what prejudice means. It means Prejudgment, as in making a decision about someone, something, before getting to know them. What i described was an experience of mine that i had with a transsexual person. I never said that every transsexual person would react the same way, or would be equally difficult to deal with.
My point simply was that you can't just put up a set of rules on how to deal with transsexual people and demonize anyone, who has trouble doing so and always acting normal while doing it.
That may be kind of obvious to some people, but it tends to be forgotten in discussions like this.

First: Obviously, it's sometimes hard recognizing your own flaws.
Second: You are using your personal anecdote as evidence that "It is all nice and fine talking about treating transexual just like normal people, etc. until you really have to deal with one."
Third: Your entire point was to pre-judge transexuals as being hard to deal with, implying that when they are hard to deal with you can't expect others to treat them as normal people.

Finally, sure, you "never said that every transsexual person would react the same way", but you're using it as a blanket statement for all transexuals with your very first sentence, and in your summary, and make no kind of effort anywhere in the post to make any reader believe otherwise.
If what you wanted to say was, "that you can't just put up a set of rules on how to deal with transsexual people and demonize anyone, who has trouble doing so and always acting normal while doing it", perhaps you should take this as a lesson and learn to express yourself better. Perhaps by saying what you meant from the start. This, possibly without realizing that the word "transexual" is completely inconsequential to your story.

Useful tips to be sure, but I also think you should give Amaror a break. I don't know if that is your intention but your tone feels a bit on the harsh side to me. What emotional incentive would that give a new poster with something potentially valuable to share but lacking means of expression? Amaror even made an excuse as the very first sentence.
(I really do agree with your points though.)

The more interesting part would be how to deal with Amaror's point: "that you can't just put up a set of rules on how to deal with transsexual people and demonize anyone, who has trouble doing so and always acting normal while doing it"

What results can we expect from demonization? I can think of two probable outcomes:
1. the recipient accepts the demonization, feels bad and tries to conform more
2. the recipient does not accept the demonization, feels angry and tries to oppose
Neither of these outcomes is good. Both step on someone's feelings and #2 is contra-productive.

What can happen if we do not call people out on not respecting other's identities, seeing as someone not even trying can lie about making an effort? More hurt feeling and no real change beyond lip service is my bet, at least in the short run.

Sadly I can't think of a good solution to the problem if the aim is more acceptance of transsexuals and respect for identity in this particular situation. I can think of good outcomes (i.e. what beliefs need to be installed), but no realistic ways to get there.

Senare:

Useful tips to be sure, but I also think you should give Amaror a break. I don't know if that is your intention but your tone feels a bit on the harsh side to me. What emotional incentive would that give a new poster with something potentially valuable to share but lacking means of expression? Amaror even made an excuse as the very first sentence.
(I really do agree with your points though.)

He didn't start with an apology. He started with "At the chance of looking like a dick, i am going to [provide conclusive evidence that I am a dick]."

I don't really have anything to comment on the rest of your post. His point (even the revised one) is moot, as the OP is just a list of common courtesies for how many trans people prefer to be treated in social interactions.

chikusho:

Amaror:

First: You can think of my story whatever you like, i don't care.
Second: I never said "one of them", granted i said "one", but that was just a formulation of mine, because i couldn't think of another way to write it. I mean, give me a break, it's not my native language or anything.
Third: I am not sure you know what prejudice means. It means Prejudgment, as in making a decision about someone, something, before getting to know them. What i described was an experience of mine that i had with a transsexual person. I never said that every transsexual person would react the same way, or would be equally difficult to deal with.
My point simply was that you can't just put up a set of rules on how to deal with transsexual people and demonize anyone, who has trouble doing so and always acting normal while doing it.
That may be kind of obvious to some people, but it tends to be forgotten in discussions like this.

First: Obviously, it's sometimes hard recognizing your own flaws.
Second: You are using your personal anecdote as evidence that "It is all nice and fine talking about treating transexual just like normal people, etc. until you really have to deal with one."
Third: Your entire point was to pre-judge transexuals as being hard to deal with, implying that when they are hard to deal with you can't expect others to treat them as normal people.

Finally, sure, you "never said that every transsexual person would react the same way", but you're using it as a blanket statement for all transexuals with your very first sentence, and in your summary, and make no kind of effort anywhere in the post to make any reader believe otherwise.
If what you wanted to say was, "that you can't just put up a set of rules on how to deal with transsexual people and demonize anyone, who has trouble doing so and always acting normal while doing it", perhaps you should take this as a lesson and learn to express yourself better. Perhaps by saying what you meant from the start. This, possibly without realizing that the word "transexual" is completely inconsequential to your story.

Ok i can see that my point can be quite easily missunderstood there, but sometimes i just misunderstand that i am on the internet here and since many people express kinda extreme opinions here, so that your own posts can be easily interpreted as extreme opinions.

Of course i am not against treating transsexuals like normal people, that would be pretty damn stupid. I am just saying that it can be quite tough to interact with them, expecially when they are making the change, so you shouldn't blame people if they fail to interact normal with transsexuals.

SaneAmongInsane:

Rosiv:
TBH i think this thread is a waste of your time, no offense. But anyone who needs a guide on how to treat people nicely really wouldn't gather anything from it anyways. And the ones that are so "opinionated" on the notion that trans-people cant be seen as the gender they aim to be wont be swayed either, for examples, see the other on going transgender thread.

And as for discussion value, im not sure what can be gained from this topic besides dissenting opinions and "MTF transwomen are still men" comments.

This.

Just don't be a dick.

And theres going to be guys coming in here being all "Queerin Don't Make The World Work" and be all "I refuse to call them by their preferred pronoun" and it's like, hey man. You don't have to believe in anything, but intentionally not refering to them by the preferred pronoun is just being a dick.

now, maybe I dont click into these kinds of threads often enough, I mean who could blame me, I go onto a gaming website to check out gaming news and the occasional member thread about ponies, why Microsoft is a distant relative to Satan, and of course "walk in, see this, what do?" types of threads.

But in the few kinds of threads like this that I do go into, I almost never see anyone in this community outright bashing people based on their sexual identity.

Then again, I avoid the Religion and Politics sub forum like its the fucking plague, or the CD-I/Jaguar, whichever you prefer.

I have to agree though on some parts of the OP's 'guidelines', pretty much just sums up to dont be a dick to people.

However, there is one thing I have to take up against, number 6.

Now, maybe it is different where the OP is from since in some countries even acting gay, let alone actually being gay or transsexual is a literal death sentence. But in the US a crime against someone for race, personal/religious beliefs, or sexual orientation is considered a hate crime and can carry the same sentence.

For an example, a few years ago a couple of white teens in Mississippi I believe actively sought out a black man, hit him with their vehicle in a parking lot, beat him some more, and than ran him over in their truck killing him for no other reason than because he was black.

I dont remember the outcome of the trial, but they all pretty much got prison time for it, even the ones that didn't actively hit him I believe. Now if he was gay or transsexual then the same charges would of been laid out, since it would of been considered a hate crime.

I do agree that is more dangerous for gay or transgendered people, but at least in the US the only way someone could get away with it is if they could prove they were feeling threatened to the point they would need to use lethal force to protect their life, only in a select few states could you prove that you were protecting others lives as a defense.

On another topic, as I say in the other threads like these that pop up, I try to use pronouns based on how they look at the time, for example, if it is a guy who looks like a woman, then I would call him her or she unless I have prior knowledge of their biological gender. Even then I would try to call them by the gender pronouns that they would prefer unless I am corrected about it.

You would think it a bit rare, but I have met some MtF transgendered people that would dress and act like a woman and you would never know the difference, but hated being called anything feminine.

Now, that was an awkward karaoke night in Dallas.

You would think it a bit rare, but I have met some MtF transgendered people that would dress and act like a woman and you would never know the difference, but hated being called anything feminine.

Now, that was an awkward karaoke night in Dallas.

They could of been cross-dressers, men who just like to dress as women, but don't do it permanently, and therefore might be attached to male monikers more often than female ones. Who knows though, your right in that it is a hard position to be put into.

Zachary Amaranth:

90sgamer:

What is interesting is your inability to separate truth and lies from correct and incorrect assertions.

Except I didn't say they were the same. You merely inferred that. I was simply puzzled that you would be so interested in the truth yet so willingly disseminate false information. That doesn't require them to be the same. Sorry, care to try again?

Also, since you are wrong about sex, would you care to revise your argument? Since you are so beholden to the truth and all....

When and where did i state that you thought they were the same? You merely inferred that was my position. Sorry, care to try again?

My question is more "how weird is the OP's dialect that he regularly uses gendered pronouns when in a conversation with the person he's referring to?" The second-person pronoun in English isn't gendered ("you") and even talking to a third party and telling a story about 'em in their presence you'd likely use their name and refer to them directly to participate in the story than pronoun it up.

(Also confused by "not trying to get into anyone's pants". Is his theory that trans people are asexual robots of some kind or is it a joke about wearing skirts?)

I think the people going into deep technicalities and definitions are missing the point. It's polite to treat someone transgender as someone of the gender they identify with, especially when speaking to their face. That's all that really matters.

Jim_Callahan:

(Also confused by "not trying to get into anyone's pants". Is his theory that trans people are asexual robots of some kind or is it a joke about wearing skirts?)

I think he is addressing the misconception (that you may not have, but others might) that if you are transgendered then that means you must want sex all the time with anyone. Which is silly.

Rosiv:

cpukill:
I'm of the mind like this, mostly due to my job. No matter how feminine you act, if you've still got the plumbing between your legs that looks like a baby's arm cradling a sausage, you're a man. And if there's two (well, 3, if you want to count the urethra) holes betwixt your thighs, you're a female.

Sorry, but that's the way it is. You can play at dress-up and pretend all you want, and that's fine and dandy. It doesn't really bother me that much, because you aren't causing me any harm, I'm free to go about my life how I choose, and so can you. You can be with who you want to be with, male or female, I really don't care, because I'm not some fundamentalist douchenozzle. Hell, on some days I would be assigned to the dispensary, and would hand out hormones to transsexual inmates, so that their bodies don't go all wacky and they end up in a hospital bed.

But when you go into prison, we don't classify you on how you act, we classify you on the biology in your pants. There's is no way in fucking hell that anyone with a penis is getting put behind bars with a bunch of women. 95% of the time, HE would be the one ending up with the problem, because those women are fucking insane. Same with females in a male prison, the inmates will fuck any hole they can get their hands on, and you having two of them? Oh hell no, that will start a fucking riot daily, and you'd be the cause of it.

So, sorry, but anatomy is what I, and the state, go by, not much else. You can label yourself however you choose, but at the end of the day, anatomy, in my mind, is the easiest thing to go by.

Im not really rallying against you, but is it really the policy to put transgender people in the same enclosure as men. I mean from what ive read LGBT people get more than their fair share of harassment. And i thought the policy with them was segregation in their own little LGBT enclave. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_people_in_prison (under segregation)

I mean, whats the policy with a POST OP transgender person? Do they still get sent to their birth sexes jail? Seems a bit cruel.

Either way, even though we disagree i do have major respect for your job, my father also worked in the federal prison system, so i can see where your hard stance comes from. Stay safe.

I appreciate that you could tell that I'm not bashing a trans persons choice to act the way they want, but that anatomically you just can't deny that you have a penis or a vagina.

Yes, the state I work for houses trans persons according to their anatomy. We've got male inmates with larger breasts than some of the female officers. And they are not segregated, unless they act like jackasses or request to be put in protective custody. Now, that doesn't mean we just throw them to the wolves either. In most cases, the fact that they have feminine tendencies and, in some cases, can't be told apart from a female unless they're buck naked, means that special care has to be taken with who they are sharing a cell with. We won't put them with those that will likely kill them for being trans, nor with those that would likely rape the living hell out of them either. But they aren't in their own special unit or wing, no.

Now, post-ops ARE treated differently. Because, ANATOMICALLY, they are now female, and as such, we would have the same issues as if they were born a female (i.e. they would be raped silly and end up causing riots). So, in the few cases that I know exist in the state, yes, a post-op transexual (male to female) will be put in the womens prison.

I'm not going to go into too much detail, because I like keeping my job. We're discouraged from sharing information for obvious reasons, but I don't mind being specific with some details.

I'm not kidding when I say no matter how feminine you are, if you have a penis, you would be raped to hell in back in a female prison. They. are. insane. It takes a very specific kind of male officer to walk those tiers.

Thanks for the well wishes, I hope you father stays safe as well!

Rosiv:
TBH i think this thread is a waste of your time, no offense. But anyone who needs a guide on how to treat people nicely really wouldn't gather anything from it anyways. And the ones that are so "opinionated" on the notion that trans-people cant be seen as the gender they aim to be wont be swayed either, for examples, see the other on going transgender thread.

And as for discussion value, im not sure what can be gained from this topic besides dissenting opinions and "MTF transwomen are still men" comments.

You'd be surprised at the number of people who have never (knowingly) encountered a transsexual, and are genuinely afraid such an encounter would be like trying to speak to a drag queen and take them 100% seriously. It doesn't even occur to them that a transsexual is actually doing their best (and most of the time does quite well at) assuming the gender-identity of their choosing, and that they don't just walk around town in a dress and sporting five o'clock shadow and unshaven legs expecting to be taken seriously by the general public.

For example, there's someone at my work who I'm fairly certain is a guy. She goes by a female name, but I don't know if that's her real name or one she's taken up for her gender-identity. But she wears stylish and well-fitting girl clothes, wears tasteful makeup, and behaves like a perfectly normal human being. I do wonder sometimes, but when talking with her I don't worry about it. Whatever her sex is, it doesn't have much bearing on who she is, so it's whatever.

Ok, I just heard an interesting story;
A colleague of mine got involved with a beautiful woman. This colleague that I know is over-the-top heterosexual, and HAS to have a woman when he's on the road. It turned out that this particular woman that he met (and was apparently sexual with) had man plumbing, but also had breasts and made himself out to look like a very convincing beautiful woman.

My colleague was super ashamed that he got involved with someone like this, but it was really his own fault. He's SO over the top with his own sexuality that he didn't bother paying attention...but I digress.

The point here is that transgender people certainly are people. They can act inappropriately just like non-transgender people. Their unique sexual orientation doesn't exempt them from treating everyone else respectfully - which means that they should be letting their sexual partners know what they are and were on the first date.

Seriously. Transphobes need to fuck off. I feel like fucking screaming whenever this shit comes up. There just seems to be no point in trying to educate asshats that will only argue until their faces are red because they are privileged little shits who can't empathize with others.

Lilani:

Rosiv:
TBH i think this thread is a waste of your time, no offense. But anyone who needs a guide on how to treat people nicely really wouldn't gather anything from it anyways. And the ones that are so "opinionated" on the notion that trans-people cant be seen as the gender they aim to be wont be swayed either, for examples, see the other on going transgender thread.

And as for discussion value, im not sure what can be gained from this topic besides dissenting opinions and "MTF transwomen are still men" comments.

You'd be surprised at the number of people who have never (knowingly) encountered a transsexual, and are genuinely afraid such an encounter would be like trying to speak to a drag queen and take them 100% seriously. It doesn't even occur to them that a transsexual is actually doing their best (and most of the time does quite well at) assuming the gender-identity of their choosing, and that they don't just walk around town in a dress and sporting five o'clock shadow and unshaven legs expecting to be taken seriously by the general public.

For example, there's someone at my work who I'm fairly certain is a guy. She goes by a female name, but I don't know if that's her real name or one she's taken up for her gender-identity. But she wears stylish and well-fitting girl clothes, wears tasteful makeup, and behaves like a perfectly normal human being. I do wonder sometimes, but when talking with her I don't worry about it. Whatever her sex is, it doesn't have much bearing on who she is, so it's whatever.

Just curious, but how are you fairly certain, is it her voice. Cause i knew alot of flat
chicks in school that got called "tranny", even though i knew they werent.

Either way the comment was really towards the ones that knew about trans-people and still
were hostile. Obviously if someone didnt know anything about a topic they would make mistakes.

Rosiv:
Just curious, but how are you fairly certain, is it her voice. Cause i knew alot of flat
chicks in school that got called "tranny", even though i knew they werent.

Either way the comment was really towards the ones that knew about trans-people and still
were hostile. Obviously if someone didnt know anything about a topic they would make mistakes.

It's a combination of her voice, the shape of her face, and her build. She's very tall and broad-shouldered, her face is quite rigid, and she is a bit plump so it's hard to tell but I feel like going by the shape of her boobs I feel like her silhouette could be mistaken for a masculine one. At first when I met her it was just a bit distracting, but as I got to know her I got used to it, and now it's just something I wonder on occasion when I'm at work and my mind wanders.

But I do agree with you I suppose--the kind of people who do assume those things are probably convinced by prejudices, not by a simple lack of experience.

gamernerdtg2:
Ok, I just heard an interesting story;
A colleague of mine got involved with a beautiful woman. This colleague that I know is over-the-top heterosexual, and HAS to have a woman when he's on the road. It turned out that this particular woman that he met (and was apparently sexual with) had man plumbing, but also had breasts and made himself out to look like a very convincing beautiful woman.

My colleague was super ashamed that he got involved with someone like this, but it was really his own fault. He's SO over the top with his own sexuality that he didn't bother paying attention...but I digress.

The point here is that transgender people certainly are people. They can act inappropriately just like non-transgender people. Their unique sexual orientation doesn't exempt them from treating everyone else respectfully - which means that they should be letting their sexual partners know what they are and were on the first date.

The problem with full disclosure is that trans people get killed for it or attacked very frequently.
An example would be the movie "Boy's don't cry". Which emulates the story of Brandon Tenna, if you wanan do more research on it, but he was beaten and raped due to his trans status being disclosed.

That... all sounds pretty reasonable, considerate, and common-sense.

It kind of makes me shudder to consider what kind of reactions made the OP feel it was necessary.

Rosiv:

gamernerdtg2:
Ok, I just heard an interesting story;
A colleague of mine got involved with a beautiful woman. This colleague that I know is over-the-top heterosexual, and HAS to have a woman when he's on the road. It turned out that this particular woman that he met (and was apparently sexual with) had man plumbing, but also had breasts and made himself out to look like a very convincing beautiful woman.

My colleague was super ashamed that he got involved with someone like this, but it was really his own fault. He's SO over the top with his own sexuality that he didn't bother paying attention...but I digress.

The point here is that transgender people certainly are people. They can act inappropriately just like non-transgender people. Their unique sexual orientation doesn't exempt them from treating everyone else respectfully - which means that they should be letting their sexual partners know what they are and were on the first date.

The problem with full disclosure is that trans people get killed for it or attacked very frequently.
An example would be the movie "Boy's don't cry". Which emulates the story of Brandon Tenna, if you wanan do more research on it, but she was beaten and raped due to her trans status being disclosed.

I see how horrible a situation this could be, but I would hope that, as someone who wants to build a loving relationship, a trans-gender individual would talk to their prospective partner about this well before having sex. Because for me, a big reveal like that after intimacy is a deal-breaker, like finding out my partner has kids, or a husband/wife, or slept with my best friend last week- it is a level of dishonesty( mind you, only after the fact) that would make me feel like I had been duped into intimacy, as in, revealing my private feelings and desires to one who was fundamentally dishonest.

Having said that, a one night fling is a one night fling! If he doesn't want to call you again, or if she just likes you as a friend, then what the hell do you owe them? Nothing.

AnarchistFish:
I think the people going into deep technicalities and definitions are missing the point. It's polite to treat someone transgender as someone of the gender they identify with, especially when speaking to their face. That's all that really matters.

This exactly. I'm genderqueer and I face similar (although not quite the same) kinds of bigotry and ignorance. Truth be told, you have to have a thick skin and expect some resistance if you are going to fly in the face of societal norms: It isn't fair or right but hey neither is life. I try to extend the courtesy of respect to everyone I meet and if you don't extend it back then I respect your right to be a bigoted assholes as long as it doesn't interfere with my right to happiness and existence.

I think the larger issue is that some people just can not or they are unwilling to acknowledge that gradients exist. This doesn't just apply to dealing with trans, intersex, gay, lesbian, bi, whatever. It encapsulates their entire world view: everything is either a or b, 1 or 0, good or bad. I deal with this all the damn time at work since I work with a few engineers in the bay area of CA. It is impossible to change their mind or ask them to be tolerant because doing so would clutter up their nice and neat categorical mental boxes which would shatter their whole way of looking at the world. Unfortunately, for them the quality that makes them great engineers also makes them hard to interact with on a personal one-to-one basis. I know of a person at work who has failed to get promoted four times because of a lack of personal skills and a blind adherence to rigid thinking (this person has literally said on more than one occasion, in the workplace that they don't believe LGBT people exist. Seriously. Doesn't believe they exist. Again, we are located in Silicon Valley.) It's sad, really.

My message to all the bigoted ignorance people in the world out there: Keep talking. In fact, talk as loud and as often as you want. And when you finally get relegated to the historical dustbin where all the other trash that doesn't support equal human rights eventually ends up, you will serve as a great example to the next generation.

the December King:

Rosiv:

gamernerdtg2:
Ok, I just heard an interesting story;
A colleague of mine got involved with a beautiful woman. This colleague that I know is over-the-top heterosexual, and HAS to have a woman when he's on the road. It turned out that this particular woman that he met (and was apparently sexual with) had man plumbing, but also had breasts and made himself out to look like a very convincing beautiful woman.

My colleague was super ashamed that he got involved with someone like this, but it was really his own fault. He's SO over the top with his own sexuality that he didn't bother paying attention...but I digress.

The point here is that transgender people certainly are people. They can act inappropriately just like non-transgender people. Their unique sexual orientation doesn't exempt them from treating everyone else respectfully - which means that they should be letting their sexual partners know what they are and were on the first date.

The problem with full disclosure is that trans people get killed for it or attacked very frequently.
An example would be the movie "Boy's don't cry". Which emulates the story of Brandon Tenna, if you wanan do more research on it, but she was beaten and raped due to her trans status being disclosed.

I see how horrible a situation this could be, but I would hope that, as someone who wants to build a loving relationship, a trans-gender individual would talk to their prospective partner about this well before having sex. Because for me, a big reveal like that after intimacy is a deal-breaker, like finding out my partner has kids, or a husband/wife, or slept with my best friend last week- it is a level of dishonesty( mind you, only after the fact) that would make me feel like I had been duped into intimacy, as in, revealing my private feelings and desires to one who was fundamentally dishonest.

Having said that, a one night fling is a one night fling! If he doesn't want to call you again, or if she just likes you as a friend, then what the hell do you owe them? Nothing.

I cant really argue with that sentiment, so well said. Although i think a transgender person really wouldnt speak of it either way, i guess it bears on there past experiences.

Rosiv:

Jegsimmons:
snip

Dont worry about the HRT, as long as they are given their regiment by a doctor, and have their blood work monitored, transition shouldn't be a major health risk. Not that im sure you even care, why focus on the child's well being, when if meeting them in person you would mis gender them and cause them pain? Seems so odd.

"misgender them and cause them pain"?

do you mean refer to them as little boy as opposed to little girl and hurting their feelings?

You're right, couldn't give less of a shit.

Jegsimmons:

Rosiv:

Jegsimmons:
snip

Dont worry about the HRT, as long as they are given their regiment by a doctor, and have their blood work monitored, transition shouldn't be a major health risk. Not that im sure you even care, why focus on the child's well being, when if meeting them in person you would mis gender them and cause them pain? Seems so odd.

"misgender them and cause them pain"?

do you mean refer to them as little boy as opposed to little girl and hurting their feelings?

You're right, couldn't give less of a shit.

Ya know, i still haven't revived a response from my previous comment to you, just reminding you that there is one in cased you missed.

Either way, why not? You mean to tell me you wouldn't care about a child's feelings at all? I can understand to a degree in your mentality for treating adults, but a child? What type of person are you exactly? Have you even ever dealt with kids? To be so blunt and matter of fact about it just seems like arrogance for arrogance sake.

You are not the ambassador nor the spokesperson for people under this broad blanket, nor do you represent the way all of them wish to be treated. I'd actually be as offended that you seem to think otherwise, no matter how good your intentions may be, as I would be with any discrimination that may have inspired the topic.

It's a lot harder to be treated as a normal person when even the people claiming to be on your side make it hard for you not to draw unnecessary attention to yourself, and given how visible an issue it is for some, depending on how far they want to go through with it, they really don't need your help sticking out.

Subscriptism:

dversion:

Subscriptism:

That really doesn't help. Born with a male or female body?

Born with a male body, identifies as female.
Sorry, I wasn't clear before.

No problem, thanks for that, it has led to confusion too many times before.

It's understandable. I had to look it up myself the first time when one of my friends became a transgendered woman. Which is why I think the OP is good. Like I honestly didn't know how to handle it and not seem like a jerk.

Rosiv:

Jegsimmons:

Rosiv:

Dont worry about the HRT, as long as they are given their regiment by a doctor, and have their blood work monitored, transition shouldn't be a major health risk. Not that im sure you even care, why focus on the child's well being, when if meeting them in person you would mis gender them and cause them pain? Seems so odd.

"misgender them and cause them pain"?

do you mean refer to them as little boy as opposed to little girl and hurting their feelings?

You're right, couldn't give less of a shit.

Ya know, i still haven't revived a response from my previous comment to you, just reminding you that there is one in cased you missed.

Either way, why not? You mean to tell me you wouldn't care about a child's feelings at all? I can understand to a degree in your mentality for treating adults, but a child? What type of person are you exactly? Have you even ever dealt with kids? To be so blunt and matter of fact about it just seems like arrogance for arrogance sake.

Because i don't take any child's decision seriously. They're not adults, they don't fully understand sexuality or genders and what makes each one different.
If its an adult, i'll take their decision seriously.
A child, i wont. because they're children.

Also, you're gonna have to repeat the question i missed, because im replying to 3 different post and i cant for the life of me find it.

Rosiv:

gamernerdtg2:
Ok, I just heard an interesting story;
A colleague of mine got involved with a beautiful woman. This colleague that I know is over-the-top heterosexual, and HAS to have a woman when he's on the road. It turned out that this particular woman that he met (and was apparently sexual with) had man plumbing, but also had breasts and made himself out to look like a very convincing beautiful woman.

My colleague was super ashamed that he got involved with someone like this, but it was really his own fault. He's SO over the top with his own sexuality that he didn't bother paying attention...but I digress.

The point here is that transgender people certainly are people. They can act inappropriately just like non-transgender people. Their unique sexual orientation doesn't exempt them from treating everyone else respectfully - which means that they should be letting their sexual partners know what they are and were on the first date.

The problem with full disclosure is that trans people get killed for it or attacked very frequently.
An example would be the movie "Boy's don't cry". Which emulates the story of Brandon Tenna, if you wanan do more research on it, but he was beaten and raped due to his trans status being disclosed.

It's not a problem, it's a crime.
It seems like there's a double standard created by all the intricacies of that lifestyle. The heterosexual person in that story wasn't a killer, and the transgendered person in that story was well known.

It was a very long response, ill spoiler it below if i can. And its not about taking their decision seriously. Its about being unnecessarily cruel to a child, when you could just choose not to by a simple change of a word.

gamernerdtg2:

Rosiv:

gamernerdtg2:
Ok, I just heard an interesting story;
A colleague of mine got involved with a beautiful woman. This colleague that I know is over-the-top heterosexual, and HAS to have a woman when he's on the road. It turned out that this particular woman that he met (and was apparently sexual with) had man plumbing, but also had breasts and made himself out to look like a very convincing beautiful woman.

My colleague was super ashamed that he got involved with someone like this, but it was really his own fault. He's SO over the top with his own sexuality that he didn't bother paying attention...but I digress.

The point here is that transgender people certainly are people. They can act inappropriately just like non-transgender people. Their unique sexual orientation doesn't exempt them from treating everyone else respectfully - which means that they should be letting their sexual partners know what they are and were on the first date.

The problem with full disclosure is that trans people get killed for it or attacked very frequently.
An example would be the movie "Boy's don't cry". Which emulates the story of Brandon Tenna, if you wanan do more research on it, but he was beaten and raped due to his trans status being disclosed.

It's not a problem, it's a crime.
It seems like there's a double standard created by all the intricacies of that lifestyle. The heterosexual person in that story wasn't a killer, and the transgendered person in that story was well known.

Sorry, not sure i understand, but what exactly is a crime that you are referring to? Lying about your gender while dating?

And as for the killing/rape, here is a source from the Wikipedia page, if that's a good enough source for you, spoilered below.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boys_Don%27t_Cry_%28film%29

Jux:

mrblakemiller:
Shouldn't be that big a part of your identity.

Am I to assume that your gender isn't an important part of your identity, and that I can refer to you as a woman if I arbitrarily felt like doing so?

That's actually a very good point; you gave me some considerable pause just now.

Let me tell you a quick story: When I was in college, I was in a debate society that had a lot of frat-like parties. There was one guy and two girls who were always hanging out with each other. One night at a party, I asked, "When is he going to start dating one of them?" The girls I was talking to said, "He's gay." Me:"Really? How did I not learn that?" Them:"Because he doesn't consider it important that everyone knows it. There are ten more important things about him than his sexuality."

If you were to say "she" or "her" while referring to me, I'd correct you simply because you were factually mistaken. I AM a man; science and the definition of "man" state that. If you insisted on using the wrong pronoun, I'd just just dismiss you as trying to rile me.

Here's my modus operandi: you can be the gender you obviously look like or the gender you're trying to pass as. With me, you can be "he" or "she". I'm not going to call you a new word like "ze" or "ou" just because you feel in-between or neither. Be like the college guy-cultivate something more interesting by which to define yourself.

Here's an analogy: What if I insisted that you only speak in Esperanto around/to me because I think the English langauge reminds me too much of British and American imperialism?

You have the right to ask for anything you want, just like I have the right to not give it to you. No one has the right to live in a world where everyone thinks they way they do.

This is something fairly close to my conscience, if not necessarily my heart.

I have no problem with a person being LGBT, what they wish to do with their life is their own choice and not for me to impose upon. However, I do know someone who decided that they were the wrong gender and decided to go with the change (male to female).

The problem was that they have always been REALLY annoying, invasive and just blurt out stupid comments at the wrong time. Being in a group conversation with them around can be wince-inducing at the best of times. Sometimes we just wonder if they are suffering more from an attention deficit problem more than a true trans complex.

The reason the above is a problem is because people use this person's freedom of choice as an impenetrable shield. You can't make constructive comments about their behavior or just have a good old moan about them to their faces because 'Oh, you're discriminating against them for being trans'. Actually, they are just annoying. They would be annoying if they were gay, annoying if they were straight, annoying if they had different coloured skin, annoying if there was absolutely nothing wrong or different with them.

We've managed to successfully build our society so protected by social laws and prejudice that we can't say anything to anyone anymore. If I tell her to her face that she is pissing me off, suddenly I'm a bigot and I am ostracized. If I agree with other people that she is annoying to be around, suddenly we are a hate group. I told a random kid to calm down and stop shouting in a busy shop the other day and suddenly I am a cruel, manipulative bully for telling someone else how to behave in public (granted, I was likely twice the kids age if not more).

So, to pull this back. Yes, we should be more accepting and less prejudice about somebody based on something they cannot help such as gender-dysphoria, which is something we have identified as way beyond the control of those that suffer from it. However, we shouldn't use it as a defense against other issues, and should never EVER use a disability as an excuse for something completely unrelated to it.

I've never met one in real life, except once, and she had girls clothes on and boobs but a masculine jaw. I called her as if she was a she and I was correct.

If I'm ever rude to one I'd like to be corrected as simply as possible so I don't make the same mistake twice., because it's fairly similar to when I'm called gay and I'M NOT FUCKING GAY. :D

Tzatziki3301:
This is something fairly close to my conscience, if not necessarily my heart.

I have no problem with a person being LGBT, what they wish to do with their life is their own choice and not for me to impose upon. However, I do know someone who decided that they were the wrong gender and decided to go with the change (male to female).

The problem was that they have always been REALLY annoying, invasive and just blurt out stupid comments at the wrong time. Being in a group conversation with them around can be wince-inducing at the best of times. Sometimes we just wonder if they are suffering more from an attention deficit problem more than a true trans complex.

The reason the above is a problem is because people use this person's freedom of choice as an impenetrable shield. You can't make constructive comments about their behavior or just have a good old moan about them to their faces because 'Oh, you're discriminating against them for being trans'. Actually, they are just annoying. They would be annoying if they were gay, annoying if they were straight, annoying if they had different coloured skin, annoying if there was absolutely nothing wrong or different with them.

We've managed to successfully build our society so protected by social laws and prejudice that we can't say anything to anyone anymore. If I tell her to her face that she is pissing me off, suddenly I'm a bigot and I am ostracized. If I agree with other people that she is annoying to be around, suddenly we are a hate group. I told a random kid to calm down and stop shouting in a busy shop the other day and suddenly I am a cruel, manipulative bully for telling someone else how to behave in public (granted, I was likely twice the kids age if not more).

So, to pull this back. Yes, we should be more accepting and less prejudice about somebody based on something they cannot help such as gender-dysphoria, which is something we have identified as way beyond the control of those that suffer from it. However, we shouldn't use it as a defense against other issues, and should never EVER use a disability as an excuse for something completely unrelated to it.

Why cant you just explain what you posted right here to her right now? Seems like the best thing to do if she is your friend. Maybe she's just tense/anxious cause of her transition. But nevertheless, i don't hold you as a bigot for those thoughts.

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