Transgender and You: A guide to interacting the the trans public

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mrblakemiller:

Jux:

mrblakemiller:
Shouldn't be that big a part of your identity.

Am I to assume that your gender isn't an important part of your identity, and that I can refer to you as a woman if I arbitrarily felt like doing so?

That's actually a very good point; you gave me some considerable pause just now.

Let me tell you a quick story: When I was in college, I was in a debate society that had a lot of frat-like parties. There was one guy and two girls who were always hanging out with each other. One night at a party, I asked, "When is he going to start dating one of them?" The girls I was talking to said, "He's gay." Me:"Really? How did I not learn that?" Them:"Because he doesn't consider it important that everyone knows it. There are ten more important things about him than his sexuality."

If you were to say "she" or "her" while referring to me, I'd correct you simply because you were factually mistaken. I AM a man; science and the definition of "man" state that. If you insisted on using the wrong pronoun, I'd just just dismiss you as trying to rile me.

Here's my modus operandi: you can be the gender you obviously look like or the gender you're trying to pass as. With me, you can be "he" or "she". I'm not going to call you a new word like "ze" or "ou" just because you feel in-between or neither. Be like the college guy-cultivate something more interesting by which to define yourself.

Here's an analogy: What if I insisted that you only speak in Esperanto around/to me because I think the English langauge reminds me too much of British and American imperialism?

You have the right to ask for anything you want, just like I have the right to not give it to you. No one has the right to live in a world where everyone thinks they way they do.

A couple of things. First, the girl assumed that his sexuality was not important to his identity. While this might be true, it could also be true that what wasn't important was sharing his sexual orientation with others. Your knowledge of which it was was third hand.

Second, the degrees of the requests are not comparable. Unless you really think replacing one gender pronoun with another is comparable to requesting someone communicate in another language in how much it will inconvienence the person being requested.

I know this will come off as confrontational, but it is incredibly arrogant to dictate to others what should and shouldn't be important to their self identities. I find it nearly incomprehensible to even imagine living with gender dysphoria, but I can imagine that it would make gender a very important part of my self idenity, do you not agree?

Zachary Amaranth:

Abomination:
If the treatment was to cease then the attributes of the individual's sex would slowly resurface. How can one claim to be something when the costume of the thing they're claiming to be keep falling apart?

I didn't know that a transwoman would start to grow a penis again without treatment.

Cute. You know damn well that transsexuality doesn't grant someone the ability to regrow mutilated sexual organs. Please don't be intentionally obtuse.

Some characteristics will return, others will not, and at the end of the day, many "real" women undergo HRT to avoid similar side effects. Huh.

And those treatments don't magically make them into a male.

I didn't know that trans-females produced their own eggs or trans-males produced their own sperm.

Thankfully, that's categorically unnecessary. these are arbitrary lines in the sand.

How? They're the point of someone being male or female. One produces eggs, one produces sperm. When combined a new human is created. That's what having sex is all about and that's why there is a male sex and a female sex. The word "sex" doesn't appear here by accident.

again, I would never deny one a job on the basis of their trans-gender status, would treat them any worse or insult them for any means. I simply consider them to be the sex they were born as.

Except, by default, you're treating us worse and insulting us. Thanks for that.

I'm sorry, I'm a telepath or a wizard? My THOUGHTS become reality and if I assume someone is male I must therefore treat them differently?

How is being considered male a bad thing? Is being male a bad thing? I didn't know being male was something I should be upset or offended about. The only difference between men and women for me is that one of them I can have the potential to form a sexual attraction towards.

And a woman can not become a man from a sexual reproductive standpoint.

How fortunate, then, that reproduction doesn't really matter.

I'll be certain to tell that to any man or woman spending thousands of dollars in medical practices to restore their ability to reproduce. I'll also be certain to remember that when someone's proud of having a child. I'll also be certain to remember that when contemplating how humanity doesn't become extinct.

It has everything to do with MY sexual identification, yet somehow having one that's different to yours offends you... yet I'm not offended by you having yours. Who's the bigot again?

You argued with Heimholtz Watson when he used that same line on homosexuals. That's hypocritical of you.

Explain how it's hypocritical. I am not attempting to deny either party any rights. I am not stating that transsexuals shouldn't be allowed to marry, adopt, become transsexual, have their sexual treatments, insist they call themselves the gender that is counter to what I believe their sex to be, have the ability to attend the restroom they identify as... I'm just stating that according to ME they are the sexuality they are born as and therefore I do not have the capability to be romantically attracted to them.

And THAT offends you?

Jux:

Second, the degrees of the requests are not comparable. Unless you really think replacing one gender pronoun with another is comparable to requesting someone communicate in another language in how much it will inconvienence the person being requested.

If it's insistent, then I would say it is comparable. If you let it become very insistent then it's going to cause problems.

Jux:

I know this will come off as confrontational, but it is incredibly arrogant to dictate to others what should and shouldn't be important to their self identities. I find it nearly incomprehensible to even imagine living with gender dysphoria, but I can imagine that it would make gender a very important part of my self idenity, do you not agree?

He didn't say that, he said that they have no right to demand insistent terminolgy.

Lovely Mixture:

Jux:

Second, the degrees of the requests are not comparable. Unless you really think replacing one gender pronoun with another is comparable to requesting someone communicate in another language in how much it will inconvienence the person being requested.

If it's insistent, then I would say it is comparable. If you let it become very insistent then it's going to cause problems.

I... don't know how to respond to this. Is "I prefer to referred to as 'X pronoun'" really comparable to requesting I speak in a language I don't know? To say the two are in anyway the same is a complete mind fuck for me.

Lovely Mixture:

Jux:

I know this will come off as confrontational, but it is incredibly arrogant to dictate to others what should and shouldn't be important to their self identities. I find it nearly incomprehensible to even imagine living with gender dysphoria, but I can imagine that it would make gender a very important part of my self idenity, do you not agree?

He didn't say that, he said that they have no right to demand insistent terminolgy.

Be like the college guy-cultivate something more interesting by which to define yourself.

I'm sorry, come again?

Rosiv:

gamernerdtg2:

Rosiv:

The problem with full disclosure is that trans people get killed for it or attacked very frequently.
An example would be the movie "Boy's don't cry". Which emulates the story of Brandon Tenna, if you wanan do more research on it, but he was beaten and raped due to his trans status being disclosed.

It's not a problem, it's a crime.
It seems like there's a double standard created by all the intricacies of that lifestyle. The heterosexual person in that story wasn't a killer, and the transgendered person in that story was well known.

Sorry, not sure i understand, but what exactly is a crime that you are referring to? Lying about your gender while dating?

And as for the killing/rape, here is a source from the Wikipedia page, if that's a good enough source for you, spoilered below.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boys_Don%27t_Cry_%28film%29

Killing someone is a crime. Technically, the reason doesn't matter. It's still a crime.

Rosiv:

Well with intersexed people they do have to undergo forms of HRT/surgical intervention to achive a desired state, so in that part you are a bit wrong.

......

....You saw the part of my post that acknowledged the existence of hermaphrodites, ...you quoted the part of my post that said that hermaphrodites were the exception to the rule, ...and yet you still felt it was necessary to bring to my attention the existence of hermaphrodites/intersex?

image

Are you trying to be facetious?
There are also people who are born without legs or born with more than two legs, but their existence doesn't change the fact that a normal healthy human is born with only two legs. The same goes for the existence of intersex people, being born deformed doesn't mean that its normal or healthy.

Rosiv:

And why do transsexuals have to be healthy to be considered women? A sick women is still a women.

Again I hope your being facetious and your not seriously comparing a man that has drastic surgery to his penis and testicles, as well as his face and consumes large quantities of hormones, to a women who has a fever from seasonal allergies. The two are worlds apart. The difference between a trans women and a regular women is that one wasn't born with male genitalia[1], while the other had to have plastic surgery to have pseudo-female genitalia.

Proto Taco:

See the problem here is you're equating being a man/woman with being male/female.

That's not a "problem".

Proto Taco:
Of course given the limits of modern medicine trans individuals can't achieve perfect sexual anatomy, but neither can cisgendered men/women.

*Looks at self* Care to explain that last bit, because I look just fine. I don't have breast or female genitalia/sex organs.

Proto Taco:
Additionally, yes, I AM equating being trans with being deformed because that's exactly what it is; gross, body-wide deformation. It may be a mostly functional deformation, but it is still an abnormal body and requires chemical and reconstructive measures to make it functional and 'normal'.

Or the other possibility is that it isn't the body that is deformed or in need of repair, but in fact it is the brain that is "deformed" and in need of repair. It's like a person who has Clinical lycanthropy or Species dysphoria saying that their body is "deformed" and refusing to consider the possibility that its there brain that is "deformed".

[1] If you feel the need to bring up some fringe minority that have some horrific deformity, look above at my earlier response about your insistence of informing me on the existence of intersex people. I'm not going to go in circles and repeat myself over and over again. The existence of some obscure fringe minority that having some medical deformity doesn't change the definition of what is considered healthy for a normal human being.

Ah, it's the reasonable discussion like this that gives me hope for the future.

Bleh. Sometimes I feel like people just make this SEEM more complex than it is.

I'm going to say no on #8. I'm going to say fake, just as I'm going to call women fake that get breast implants because they want bigger breasts. A person that has willing cosmetic surgery, that isn't to correct something caused by a disease like cancer, or a disfiguring accident like burns from a fire, I'm going to call fake.

As far as I'm concerned on #6, a relationship where the partner finds out mid relationship that the other is transgender should never happen. I lose all respect for a person that will hide who they are/were and where they've come from before they enter a relationship. I consider it a violation of the non-transgendered people and really a waste of their time if they wouldn't have been okay with it to begin with. People could end up spending months, maybe years on a relationship, but then find out that they wasted their time, and because of it, there is the possibility that it made them miss a relationship that would actually go somewhere.

The worst thing a person can do when starting a relationship, is hiding huge parts of their life, doing so is willingly setting up a failed relationship, one built on deceit.

"Because in their mind they know they are something else", isn't enough for me.

Jux:

I... don't know how to respond to this. Is "I prefer to referred to as 'X pronoun'" really comparable to requesting I speak in a language I don't know? To say the two are in anyway the same is a complete mind fuck for me.

If you get people who are going to get so offended by the fact that you don't refer to them as "Ze." All I can see is the litigious lawsuits that are going to unfold.

We already get lawsuits over people getting forced to use English instead of their native language.

Maybe I'm just really pessimistic. But all I see are similar results with people suing each other over use of different words.

Jux:

Be like the college guy-cultivate something more interesting by which to define yourself.

I'm sorry, come again?

Which he said in reference to "stop demanding that you be referred to by a different pronoun, do something that doesn't enforce terminology on others." Or at least that's how I saw it, he didn't say it was unimportant.

Haha this whole thread is a laugh. Just treat them like you would any other person. They don't deserve mistreatment or special treatment.

ItsNotRudy:

Headdrivehardscrew:

The Apple BOOM:
Woot, finally a thread where I can ask questions.

The thing I don't understand, is why someone would feel the need to change themselves physically. Why do they need to change their genitals just because they think differently than most people of the same sex?

Some boys/men simply identify as a female when asked and given the opportunity to explain themselves. Some of them have been raped. Some of them have not. Some just plain abhor the idea of carrying around the wiener and balls combo. Some are willing to cut them off themselves, which is generally a bad idea. Some are pressured into wanting things by society, politics or their own silly ideas.

It's complicated.

Everyone' got their problems, mutilating yourself and not really looking like either gender doesn't really seem like a resolution. Men who want to feel like they're women still often look like men. Same goes for women going the other way. You'll still not be the opposite gender, you'll appear to be the opposite gender to the visually impaired or from a distance. We have a national celebrity who is transgender, and while I have to admit it's done very well (I'll assume it's the best money can buy), there are still features and voice traits that are a dead giveaway.

Yep. It is a hollow simulacrum.

Wants becoming raised to needs is a bad idea (bad for health, for inner peace, stress levels, for getting along with others). It is an act. You can merge science in (body modification), you can lie (I'm a man! I'm a woman now) or put on whatever mask you want, but the game of indulging a want is always in play.

Sonic Doctor:
I'm going to say no on #8. I'm going to say fake, just as I'm going to call women fake that get breast implants because they want bigger breasts. A person that has willing cosmetic surgery, that isn't to correct something caused by a disease like cancer, or a disfiguring accident like burns from a fire, I'm going to call fake.

As far as I'm concerned on #6, a relationship where the partner finds out mid relationship that the other is transgender should never happen. I lose all respect for a person that will hide who they are/were and where they've come from before they enter a relationship. I consider it a violation of the non-transgendered people and really a waste of their time if they wouldn't have been okay with it to begin with. People could end up spending months, maybe years on a relationship, but then find out that they wasted their time, and because of it, there is the possibility that it made them miss a relationship that would actually go somewhere.

The worst thing a person can do when starting a relationship, is hiding huge parts of their life, doing so is willingly setting up a failed relationship, one built on deceit.

"Because in their mind they know they are something else", isn't enough for me.

Indeed, good on you for pointing out obvious lying for what it is.

Helmholtz Watson:

Proto Taco:
Additionally, yes, I AM equating being trans with being deformed because that's exactly what it is; gross, body-wide deformation. It may be a mostly functional deformation, but it is still an abnormal body and requires chemical and reconstructive measures to make it functional and 'normal'.

Or the other possibility is that it isn't the body that is deformed or in need of repair, but in fact it is the brain that is "deformed" and in need of repair. It's like a person who has Clinical lycanthropy or Species dysphoria saying that their body is "deformed" and refusing to consider the possibility that its there brain that is "deformed".

You bring up an interesting point here in your final statement. Indeed you could make the argument that the brain is the deformed factor but that perception doesn't really hold up upon examination.

Deformation is literally defined as something being 'misshapen' or 'disfigured'. Now, when we consider that in a trans individual the brain is neither damaged nor mal-developed and all cognitive difficulty stems from being bathed in the incorrect mix of hormones, it becomes evident that the brain is not 'deformed' it simply requires the opposite of what the body it resides in is capable of providing. Additionally when you consider that the brain is regarded as the center of a person's consciousness by science and medicine, it becomes an ethical matter when you begin to suggest severely altering brain structure in favor of preserving societal norms.

In terms of practical intervention the brain is in fact much more difficult to alter or repair than the body is. Indeed the brain's plasticity is such that it is likely additional harm will come to the patient if you pursue this as an avenue of treatment. Even within psychiatric medicine, taking steps to alter the brain itself is always considered a last resort. Couple that with the fact that the vast majority of trans patients report almost immediate alleviation of the majority of their symptoms upon starting hormone replacement therapy and it becomes obvious that the treatment for trans individuals is both easy and cost effective without resorting to more expensive treatments that would prove much more detrimental to the patient's health. In the situation of HRT, treatment of gender dysphoria becomes no different than any other problem you might address with your common care physician; an unhealthy condition exists the physician is able to prescribe medication to treat it.

Now if you don't like how trans people express themselves and find it offensive they don't adhere to your idea of what 'normal' and 'healthy' gender expression is, sadly that's your problem. Not theirs. Get over it.

So today I'm going to lay out a few basic guidelines for respectfully interacting with people who happen to belong under the 'trans umbrella'. These guidelines are neither deep, nor are they set in stone. At any time you can choose not to follow these guidelines but let it be known that your interactions with trans individuals will likely become less than optimal if you do.

I need a fucking guideline on how to talk to people who are transgendered? Do they speak another fucking language? Why should I need to know whether or not your transgendered? Last time I checked, people don't generally refer to people by gender on the internet anyway so why does it matter?

I don't see why it's anyone else's business and I don't see why I need to know what gender, sexuality or bug fuck crazy belief structure you subscribe to, it's YOUR business, not mine.

Helmholtz Watson:

Rosiv:

Well with intersexed people they do have to undergo forms of HRT/surgical intervention to achive a desired state, so in that part you are a bit wrong.

......

....You saw the part of my post that acknowledged the existence of hermaphrodites, ...you quoted the part of my post that said that hermaphrodites were the exception to the rule, ...and yet you still felt it was necessary to bring to my attention the existence of hermaphrodites/intersex?

image

Are you trying to be facetious?
There are also people who are born without legs or born with more than two legs, but their existence doesn't change the fact that a normal healthy human is born with only two legs. The same goes for the existence of intersex people, being born deformed doesn't mean that its normal or healthy.

Rosiv:

And why do transsexuals have to be healthy to be considered women? A sick women is still a women.

Again I hope your being facetious and your not seriously comparing a man that has drastic surgery to his penis and testicles, as well as his face and consumes large quantities of hormones, to a women who has a fever from seasonal allergies. The two are worlds apart. The difference between a trans women and a regular women is that one wasn't born with male genitalia[1], while the other had to have plastic surgery to have pseudo-female genitalia.

Proto Taco:

See the problem here is you're equating being a man/woman with being male/female.

That's not a "problem".

Proto Taco:
Of course given the limits of modern medicine trans individuals can't achieve perfect sexual anatomy, but neither can cisgendered men/women.

*Looks at self* Care to explain that last bit, because I look just fine. I don't have breast or female genitalia/sex organs.

Proto Taco:
Additionally, yes, I AM equating being trans with being deformed because that's exactly what it is; gross, body-wide deformation. It may be a mostly functional deformation, but it is still an abnormal body and requires chemical and reconstructive measures to make it functional and 'normal'.

Or the other possibility is that it isn't the body that is deformed or in need of repair, but in fact it is the brain that is "deformed" and in need of repair. It's like a person who has Clinical lycanthropy or Species dysphoria saying that their body is "deformed" and refusing to consider the possibility that its there brain that is "deformed".

Ya know we had this debate a week or so ago, i belive you didnt come up with a counter.
So ill state my point again.

Are you trying to be facetious?
There are also people who are born without legs or born with more than two legs, but their existence doesn't change the fact that a normal healthy human is born with only two legs. The same goes for the existence of intersex people, being born deformed doesn't mean that its normal or healthy.

No im not being facetious. Your argument doesn't even make the case for them not being women, just not "normal or healthy" women. So im not even sure how your argument works to make them not women.

It's like a person who has Clinical lycanthropy or Species dysphoria saying that their body is "deformed" and refusing to consider the possibility that its there brain that is "deformed".

Regardless of weather the body/brain is deformed, the key fixture here is quality of life. People with Clinical lycanthropy have been said to have been a "psychiatric syndrome" that can be caused by "another condition such as schizophrenia, bipolar disorder or clinical depression." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clinical_lycanthropy
So for treating these people, the better thing would be to hit the source, which is the schizophrenia, bipolar disorder or clinical depression.

And as for Furries, they have their suits that they make, and for the ones that arent content wit the suits and want some acutal physical intervention, then i suppose there is a problem, since animals and humans have drastically different brains/fucntionalty. And even with surgical intervention to make them look like whatever animal they choose, if were we to legally sanction them as the animal, then they would be loosing ALOT of human rights. Which is something i think wont really happen in the present day, since taking away rights from people isnt very progressive in my mind.

Now for transpeople, if you want to include crossdressers too, then ya some of them can dress up as women from time to time, like furries dress as animals, and be content. Others cant and seek medical intervention. And if your wondering why they dont just fix the "brain" as they would try for the one with Clinical lycanthropy, well since the causes of transgenderism are relativly unknown, and the ones that revolve around a psychiatric bases are unfounded/dated (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_transsexualism ) then that kind of means that we shouldn't treat them like mental patients?

And its really audacious that you have the NERVE to call me being facetious, when you include a facepalm .gif in your response. If you cant handle such a serious topic matter with the respect it deserves then im not really sure why you bothered posting.

[1] If you feel the need to bring up some fringe minority that have some horrific deformity, look above at my earlier response about your insistence of informing me on the existence of intersex people. I'm not going to go in circles and repeat myself over and over again. The existence of some obscure fringe minority that having some medical deformity doesn't change the definition of what is considered healthy for a normal human being.

Lovely Mixture:

Jux:

I... don't know how to respond to this. Is "I prefer to referred to as 'X pronoun'" really comparable to requesting I speak in a language I don't know? To say the two are in anyway the same is a complete mind fuck for me.

If you get people who are going to get so offended by the fact that you don't refer to them as "Ze." All I can see is the litigious lawsuits that are going to unfold.

We already get lawsuits over people getting forced to use English instead of their native language.

Maybe I'm just really pessimistic. But all I see are similar results with people suing each other over use of different words.

Where did the talk of lawsuits come from? I'm just talking about addressing people by a pronoun they feel comfortable with as a social courtesy, and how the inconvenience it places on the requestee is incomparable to asking someone to speak another language.

Lovely Mixture:

Jux:

Be like the college guy-cultivate something more interesting by which to define yourself.

I'm sorry, come again?

Which he said in reference to "stop demanding that you be referred to by a different pronoun, do something that doesn't enforce terminology on others." Or at least that's how I saw it, he didn't say it was unimportant.

When I read it, it appeared he was attempting to dictate what is and isn't suitable criteria for how one builds their self identity, as it was in reference to the story about his experience in college.

My position is this: If you're going to do something that antagonizes someone needlessly, you're being a dick. We're not talking about someone blowing up in his face over a simple misunderstanding and him getting defensive, we're talking about him refusing to address people by a pronoun they identify with for completely arbitrary, undefined reasons.

With me, you can be "he" or "she". I'm not going to call you a new word like "ze" or "ou" just because you feel in-between or neither.

How? They're the point of someone being male or female. One produces eggs, one produces sperm. When combined a new human is created. That's what having sex is all about and that's why there is a male sex and a female sex. The word "sex" doesn't appear here by accident.

Why do you keep on arguing reproductive capabilities when you know you its not a very good argument?
It's already been said that sex was established via phenotype not sperm production, and i haven't really seen you refute it. Unless you mean to tell me that the only reason people have sex is due to reproduction, causes thats way off base.
The babies are made as a result of sexual intercourse, it doesn't mean that sex HAS to be about reproduction.

I'm sorry, I'm a telepath or a wizard? My THOUGHTS become reality and if I assume someone is male I must therefore treat them differently?

How is being considered male a bad thing? Is being male a bad thing? I didn't know being male was something I should be upset or offended about. The only difference between men and women for me is that one of them I can have the potential to form a sexual attraction towards.

Can you really not emapthize with trans people?

How is being considered male a bad thing? Is being male a bad thing? I didn't know being male was something I should be upset or offended about.

It's not, given that you arent a MtF trans person. The second you become one the situation kind of changes. You see yourself as a women in your heart, and when someone were to call you out as otherwise it destroys that image of yourself. Whats the point of even trying to transition if people arent going to respect you as a one, it becomes counterproductive? There is a large social aspect at play that you seemed to miss.

Explain how it's hypocritical. I am not attempting to deny either party any rights. I am not stating that transsexuals shouldn't be allowed to marry, adopt, become transsexual, have their sexual treatments, insist they call themselves the gender that is counter to what I believe their sex to be, have the ability to attend the restroom they identify as... I'm just stating that according to ME they are the sexuality they are born as and therefore I do not have the capability to be romantically attracted to them.

And THAT offends you?

You can consider anyone how ever you want. That i cant bother you with. But when you start making statements like "Transgender women arent really women" (not the actual phrasing i know, but you get the jist) then ill have to disagree.
Cause when you express your opinions as fact, things tend to get a bit wish-washy, and i think then you can understand the confusion regarding all the offended responses.

@DerangedHobo

I need a fucking guideline on how to talk to people who are transgendered? Do they speak another fucking language? Why should I need to know whether or not your transgendered? Last time I checked, people don't generally refer to people by gender on the internet anyway so why does it matter?

Well it could be used outside of the internet too, where people meet face to face. And then you encounter yourself with someone you assume to be transgender. Thats the purpose i got out of it anyways.

Sorry, I reject your rules.

I had a MtF transgender friend in Uni and we got along just fine. But gender is a physical thing, not a mental thing. If you are mentally one gender and physically another, that's a mental issue, not a physical one.

If someone really wants to be called a girl when they are born a guy, I'll entertain that notion for their sake. But they're still a guy and if they were born a guy and claim to be a girl, and are into guys, they are gay. If they are born a girl and claim to be a guy but are into girls, they are lesbian.

There's a difference between being police to someone and respecting their opinion - however odd or wrong it may seem - and ignoring reality and altering the actual language just because some people are offended by it.

Rosiv:
@DerangedHobo

I need a fucking guideline on how to talk to people who are transgendered? Do they speak another fucking language? Why should I need to know whether or not your transgendered? Last time I checked, people don't generally refer to people by gender on the internet anyway so why does it matter?

Well it could be used outside of the internet too, where people meet face to face. And then you encounter yourself with someone you assume to be transgender. Thats the purpose i got out of it anyways.

Well in the highly unlikely situation that I would meet a full on transgendered person I would still just treat them as normal, if they look androgenous then just use genderless words to address them. Simple.

You want to live like the opposite sex in every conceivable way, go ahead, why should i care
I will respect your right to change your address and name

Rosiv:

Nokturos:

Proto Taco:
Guideline 8) Trans individuals are not 'fake' men/women.

They definitely are. Me dressing up as and acting like a giraffe doesn't make me a real giraffe, does it? Same logic applies here.

if you had some chemical/physical alternation to make yourself more giraffe like then id say thats a good moniker for calling you a giraffe

That does not change what you were born and registered as, go ahead, call that my opinion of what happened

Speaking of furries, i have seen people who try to crudely alter their appearance with surgery to look like animals
I am fascinated by it but could never comprehend why someone would actually cut themselves to do it
I suppose i am more averse to surgery than most people since i have an intact penis and have had numerous hand injuries

ShinyCharizard:
Haha this whole thread is a laugh. Just treat them like you would any other person. They don't deserve mistreatment or special treatment.

I agree with this 100%, just because for instance my cousin is a trans-woman doesn't change who she is as a HUMAN BEING. And wouldn't you know she has emotions and hopes and dreams and flaws, just like the rest of us! Amazing!!

Vicarious Reality:
You want to live like the opposite sex in every conceivable way, go ahead, why should i care
I will respect your right to change your address and name

Rosiv:

Nokturos:

They definitely are. Me dressing up as and acting like a giraffe doesn't make me a real giraffe, does it? Same logic applies here.

if you had some chemical/physical alternation to make yourself more giraffe like then id say thats a good moniker for calling you a giraffe

That does not change what you were born and registered as, go ahead, call that my opinion of what happened

Speaking of furries, i have seen people who try to crudely alter their appearance with surgery to look like animals
I am fascinated by it but could never comprehend why someone would actually cut themselves to do it
I suppose i am more averse to surgery than most people since i have an intact penis and have had numerous hand injuries

You can change what you are registered as via taking the proper prodecures to do so, which varries from state to state. And then you will be legally whatever you say, male or female. As for the birth, no they cant change what they were born as, but im not arguing that. They were born male, but now are female. The past tense context doesnt really apply since we are in the present tense. The only people who would need a trans person's past info would be doctors and possibly lovers.

As for furies, ya there have been some that change themselves into looking simliar to animals. But the differences between man/women are small really. We all start out female and are "switched" to male if we have the Y chromosome. And all that does is develop our phenotype really. But to actually change yourself into anything resembling a cat wouldnt only require surgury, but the ablity to change your brain and remove whatever elements make you human, like our speech or our high functioning cognitive ablities. To take away rights from someone, human rights, is a place in society we really haven't gotten yet. And even we were to legitimately recognize furies, we would be kind of obligated to treat them as animals, which opens up alot of problems i dont think need be stating? To me, paralleling furies and transgender people maybe seems similar at first, but they are different concepts.

The furies who do get surgical modifications claiming they are animals in the inside dont even act like it really. They aim for a hybrid and still use human money, human concepts like owning land and still fall under that scope, if they were truly animalistic in nature, wouldn't they try and breech from that? The same cant really be said for trans people.

Cameron Everett:

ShinyCharizard:
Haha this whole thread is a laugh. Just treat them like you would any other person. They don't deserve mistreatment or special treatment.

I agree with this 100%, just because for instance my cousin is a trans-woman doesn't change who she is as a HUMAN BEING. And wouldn't you know she has emotions and hopes and dreams and flaws, just like the rest of us! Amazing!!

Yea but when you address your cousin in person, and have to use pronouns, you don't call her any male ones do you? Thats what the focus on the article is IMO. There are people who will intentionally mis-gender transgender people just out of a dogmatic literal biological interpretation of sex/gender. And who wont even consider their feelings on the topic. This topic, IMO, is an attempt to counter that notion, however futile that may be. Good for you though,and i mean it sincerely, in being able to treat people with a level of respect that others cant seem to.

Proto Taco:

Helmholtz Watson:

Proto Taco:
Additionally, yes, I AM equating being trans with being deformed because that's exactly what it is; gross, body-wide deformation. It may be a mostly functional deformation, but it is still an abnormal body and requires chemical and reconstructive measures to make it functional and 'normal'.

Or the other possibility is that it isn't the body that is deformed or in need of repair, but in fact it is the brain that is "deformed" and in need of repair. It's like a person who has Clinical lycanthropy or Species dysphoria saying that their body is "deformed" and refusing to consider the possibility that its there brain that is "deformed".

You bring up an interesting point here in your final statement. Indeed you could make the argument that the brain is the deformed factor but that perception doesn't really hold up upon examination.

Deformation is literally defined as something being 'misshapen' or 'disfigured'. Now, when we consider that in a trans individual the brain is neither damaged nor mal-developed and all cognitive difficulty stems from being bathed in the incorrect mix of hormones, it becomes evident that the brain is not 'deformed' it simply requires the opposite of what the body it resides in is capable of providing. Additionally when you consider that the brain is regarded as the center of a person's consciousness by science and medicine, it becomes an ethical matter when you begin to suggest severely altering brain structure in favor of preserving societal norms.

In terms of practical intervention the brain is in fact much more difficult to alter or repair than the body is. Indeed the brain's plasticity is such that it is likely additional harm will come to the patient if you pursue this as an avenue of treatment. Even within psychiatric medicine, taking steps to alter the brain itself is always considered a last resort. Couple that with the fact that the vast majority of trans patients report almost immediate alleviation of the majority of their symptoms upon starting hormone replacement therapy and it becomes obvious that the treatment for trans individuals is both easy and cost effective without resorting to more expensive treatments that would prove much more detrimental to the patient's health. In the situation of HRT, treatment of gender dysphoria becomes no different than any other problem you might address with your common care physician; an unhealthy condition exists the physician is able to prescribe medication to treat it.

Now if you don't like how trans people express themselves and find it offensive they don't adhere to your idea of what 'normal' and 'healthy' gender expression is, sadly that's your problem. Not theirs. Get over it.

Im gonna have to stop you real quick. You have some bad information.

In my four years of pursuing my Psych degree, I actually did research over the causes of transexuality. Did you know that there is MORE evidence toward it being a psychological aspect than a biological aspect?

There have actually been twin studies that help to prove this. Let me explain a twin study to you. Since both were born from the same egg/sperm, they are going to be biologically identical. This means that if some characteristic is present in one twin, then if its biological, it is present in the other twin. If it is another factor, it wont be in the other twin.

Sorry I cant find the studies right now, but the twin studies rules against the 'hormone' theory, and also, there is next to no evidence for that type of cause. I've read Psych journals that did their research over the biological factors, and the only thing they would add about it was, "There is a theory that hormones activity during birth can be a factor toward transsexualism, but there is next to no evidence that supports this theory, though we must still research it."

Ill just wrap it up for you in this sentence. From the research I did over the subject, the most compelling theory is that it is predominantly a Psychological, not a biological factor.

Now, I have to add this because people are going to do the, "Oh, you hate Transsexuals, that's why you are saying this". Nope. I have my own thoughts on this subject but I keep them out of my research. I'm also not saying Transsexualism is bad either, its all about society. You could say that there are more transsexuals today than before because most of our basic needs are always fulfilled, so we focus on other things, and for some of those it may be sexuality. You know, evolving society and culture.

Sadly, im also going to have to put this out here, I do not have the sources nor the capability to look them up anymore. I graduated and lost access to the large databases of research that the campus had.

EDIT: Also, to point this out, in the future, we could actually find out that it is biological, but all of our research currently points toward Psychological aspects.

Rosiv:
TBH i think this thread is a waste of your time, no offense. But anyone who needs a guide on how to treat people nicely really wouldn't gather anything from it anyways. And the ones that are so "opinionated" on the notion that trans-people cant be seen as the gender they aim to be wont be swayed either, for examples, see the other on going transgender thread.

And as for discussion value, im not sure what can be gained from this topic besides dissenting opinions and "MTF transwomen are still men" comments.

I disagree. I've been authentically curious about what to say/do, because I'm not a particularly sensitive person or politically correct; and that seems to be the trend nowadays.
I can't stand how sensitive GEN X and Y appear to be now, and even if I'm in a slightly off-mood, I antagonise that sensitivity. So I wouldn't say I'm the 'nice guy'.
I was raised with the 'harden up and deal with it, or kill yourself' mentality. "If they're weak, let them be offended."
Sometimes I don't recognise what I'm doing, sometimes I do; so as far as sensitivity-training goes on how to deal with a transgender individual. This is actually very helpful.

zarguhl:
Sorry, I reject your rules.

I had a MtF transgender friend in Uni and we got along just fine. But gender is a physical thing, not a mental thing. If you are mentally one gender and physically another, that's a mental issue, not a physical one.

If someone really wants to be called a girl when they are born a guy, I'll entertain that notion for their sake. But they're still a guy and if they were born a guy and claim to be a girl, and are into guys, they are gay. If they are born a girl and claim to be a guy but are into girls, they are lesbian.

There's a difference between being police to someone and respecting their opinion - however odd or wrong it may seem - and ignoring reality and altering the actual language just because some people are offended by it.

Im glad you are respectful on the topic. But why say its "ignoring reality"? Intersexed people have situations like this all the time, some even looking like men, even though they were born with XX chromosomes. In all intents and purposes, there situations are the same sometimes, and both have to seek medical intervention to make themselves how they want. But because the intersexed women was born with XX, she gets to be called a women? It just seems like a arbitrary distinction, when we mostly judge sex by phenotype, not genotype.

And as for your comment on they being gay/lesbian. What does that mean for the other person involved? Transgender people can pass, some dont, but the ones that dont just fall into the "ugly" category, like other people who dont look very feminine/masculine. So if a women dates a transgender women and they arent considered "lesbians", then i guess it be straight to date FtM transpeople right?


I dont know about you, but that doesn't seem like a straight situation a guy would get into.

God. This thread is really making me want to die right now. That's saying a lot. This much transphobic bullshit must be getting to other trans identified people on this site too, right?

@thethird0611

Im gonna have to stop you real quick. You have some bad information.

In my four years of pursuing my Psych degree, I actually did research over the causes of transexuality. Did you know that there is MORE evidence toward it being a psychological aspect than a biological aspect?

There have actually been twin studies that help to prove this. Let me explain a twin study to you. Since both were born from the same egg/sperm, they are going to be biologically identical. This means that if some characteristic is present in one twin, then if its biological, it is present in the other twin. If it is another factor, it wont be in the other twin.

Ya know, it help if you provide a source, when general sources say otherwise. Either way twin studies dont prove jack sorry. You cant eliminate environment factors from them, which make them kind of moot.

You could say that there are more transsexuals today than before because most of our basic needs are always fulfilled, so we focus on other things, and for some of those it may be sexuality. You know, evolving society and culture.

You could say that, but to be honesty id rather some source say it instead. You cant just make an entire post claiming Psychological causes, stating someone is mis-inforiming, and without any source, expect me to just "take your word on it" right?

Rosiv:

TehCookie:

Zachary Amaranth:

We've been through this before: your definition of what makes a woman and the general definition used biologically are not. You can assert it until you're blue in the face, but you're still wrong. And having called us things like abominations in the past, I'm pretty sure it's not a scientifically informed viewpoint to begin with.

Believe what you want, but don't try and tell me what sex is if you yourself disagree with the concept from a biological/medical/scientific standpoint. You can be as layperson as you want, but it doesn't change my argument any. and, to be honest, if your views contradict medicine and reasoning, the problem probably isn't with the medicine or reasoning. It's sort of like that whole religion thing. You can choose to believe that the Earth is flat, the center of the universe, free of evolution, whatever. You can't, however, change the facts.

Speaking of, sex and gender ARE different, but that's not relevant here, as we're talking specifically sex. Transwomen are, generally speaking, treated by and considered as women by the medical community. Transmen the same, except treated as men. And as we have literally both been here and done that with this topic, I can't help but think even trying to argue this point is an exercise in futility.

How am I wrong? Since you are an expert of sex and gender tell me how to identify the difference between male and female. No trans business, no mutations or abnormalities, just sex.

Preferable with a source so I know it's not your ass.

You identity the difference by their physical components, its not really that hard.
Thats the protocol doctors have been using for ages. Phenotype defines sex, not genotype.

http://www.mcgeorge.edu/documents/publications/05_Curtis_FINAL.pdf

Why be so dogmatic about it anyways? Will it be a big inconvenience to call a transgender women
a women? Even if you see it as wrong, by doing so you don't cause any pain to them.

That definition lines up perfectly with my definition so now I have no idea what Zachary Amaranth is talking about. I didn't even say my view in this thread, I said sex is not subjective.

Abomination:

TehCookie:
How am I wrong? Since you are an expert of sex and gender tell me how to identify the difference between male and female. No trans business, no mutations or abnormalities, just sex.

Preferable with a source so I know it's not your ass.

I would just like to say I would be amazed if someone could tell another person's sex by only using their OWN ass. That would be an accomplishment.

I knew a guy who could tell a person's race by their ass, it was extremely impressive.

A.A.K:

Rosiv:
TBH i think this thread is a waste of your time, no offense. But anyone who needs a guide on how to treat people nicely really wouldn't gather anything from it anyways. And the ones that are so "opinionated" on the notion that trans-people cant be seen as the gender they aim to be wont be swayed either, for examples, see the other on going transgender thread.

And as for discussion value, im not sure what can be gained from this topic besides dissenting opinions and "MTF transwomen are still men" comments.

I disagree. I've been authentically curious about what to say/do, because I'm not a particularly sensitive person or politically correct; and that seems to be the trend nowadays.
I can't stand how sensitive GEN X and Y appear to be now, and even if I'm in a slightly off-mood, I antagonise that sensitivity. So I wouldn't say I'm the 'nice guy'.
I was raised with the 'harden up and deal with it, or kill yourself' mentality. "If they're weak, let them be offended."
Sometimes I don't recognise what I'm doing, sometimes I do; so as far as sensitivity-training goes on how to deal with a transgender individual. This is actually very helpful.

I guess i kind of regret making that comment, i just knew there would be people coming out of the woodworks to say something inflamatory just to express themselves, not that they cant, just seems like they are working to cause other strife, thats all.

And i respect your stance on the topic as well. I guess if you wanted my opnion on how to treat them, reguardless of if you see them as male or female, if they look like they are attempting a male form call them male, female call them female, and if they are too androygnous

then i guess you could just use non-gendered remarks like, "hey you" , or "excuse me" and wait till they bring up something to indicate what they are.

Either way, thanks for the tame response.

Rosiv:
@thethird0611

Im gonna have to stop you real quick. You have some bad information.

In my four years of pursuing my Psych degree, I actually did research over the causes of transexuality. Did you know that there is MORE evidence toward it being a psychological aspect than a biological aspect?

There have actually been twin studies that help to prove this. Let me explain a twin study to you. Since both were born from the same egg/sperm, they are going to be biologically identical. This means that if some characteristic is present in one twin, then if its biological, it is present in the other twin. If it is another factor, it wont be in the other twin.

Ya know, it help if you provide a source, when general sources say otherwise. Either way twin studies dont prove jack sorry. You cant eliminate environment factors from them, which make them kind of moot.

You could say that there are more transsexuals today than before because most of our basic needs are always fulfilled, so we focus on other things, and for some of those it may be sexuality. You know, evolving society and culture.

You could say that, but to be honesty id rather some source say it instead. You cant just make an entire post claiming Psychological causes, stating someone is mis-inforiming, and without any source, expect me to just "take your word on it" right?

Please read the rest of my post. Thank you.

Also, the second part... its called a Hypothesis, a personal thought on the subject of Transexuality. This is why I do not like to post what I have researched, because nothing but passive aggressiveness comes from it when I do nothing but bring a non-biased point to the conversation. I will not be responding to anymore quotes from you either. If you would like to send a private message, ill happily reply to that.

@TehCookie

That definition lines up perfectly with my definition so now I have no idea what Zachary Amaranth is talking about. I didn't even say my view in this thread, I said sex is not subjective.

I dont think sex is not subjective, i think its subjective because it varies and is never constant, like my source alludes to. And i dont want to put words in her mouth, but i think she was referring to that.

Transwomen are, generally speaking, treated by and considered as women by the medical community. Transmen the same, except treated as men.

You pretty much rallied against that notion with the line

I said sex is not subjective.

, for that then locks transgender people into being the sex they were born as, which doesn't really jive with how sex is determined by ,which is physical characteristics, not your birth characteristics.

Jux:

Where did the talk of lawsuits come from? I'm just talking about addressing people by a pronoun they feel comfortable with as a social courtesy, and how the inconvenience it places on the requestee is incomparable to asking someone to speak another language.

Well I'm saying scenarios already exist where people have been asked to speak other languages and it has gotten out of hand. If people are insistent enough that you MUST use the new terminology then I foresee similar results. Ie. the requests are different but the results can be the same.

If we're talking only social courtesies, then it's up to the specific scenarios. But I think it's overstepping boundaries to demand pronouns outside our general lexicon.

Lovely Mixture:

When I read it, it appeared he was attempting to dictate what is and isn't suitable criteria for how one builds their self identity, as it was in reference to the story about his experience in college.

I thought he was just questioning its necessity if you're going to demand insistent terminology for your peers.

Lovely Mixture:

My position is this: If you're going to do something that antagonizes someone needlessly, you're being a dick. We're not talking about someone blowing up in his face over a simple misunderstanding and him getting defensive, we're talking about him refusing to address people by a pronoun they identify with for completely arbitrary, undefined reasons.

With me, you can be "he" or "she". I'm not going to call you a new word like "ze" or "ou" just because you feel in-between or neither.

Well I'll talk about it from my point of view:

I am always careful to not step on anyone's toes, I always watch my words, and I be polite as I believe human beings should. I am always sure

I don't need one more factor to be added, that I'm going to potentially offend someone if I don't use proper terminology.

I dont treat anyone of any ethnicity or gender or sexuality in a certain way.

i know people from just about every combination possible.
And i treat them as people as human beings.
not just as part of who they are

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