Transgender and You: A guide to interacting the the trans public

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Rosiv:

A.A.K:

Rosiv:
TBH i think this thread is a waste of your time, no offense. But anyone who needs a guide on how to treat people nicely really wouldn't gather anything from it anyways. And the ones that are so "opinionated" on the notion that trans-people cant be seen as the gender they aim to be wont be swayed either, for examples, see the other on going transgender thread.

And as for discussion value, im not sure what can be gained from this topic besides dissenting opinions and "MTF transwomen are still men" comments.

I disagree. I've been authentically curious about what to say/do, because I'm not a particularly sensitive person or politically correct; and that seems to be the trend nowadays.
I can't stand how sensitive GEN X and Y appear to be now, and even if I'm in a slightly off-mood, I antagonise that sensitivity. So I wouldn't say I'm the 'nice guy'.
I was raised with the 'harden up and deal with it, or kill yourself' mentality. "If they're weak, let them be offended."
Sometimes I don't recognise what I'm doing, sometimes I do; so as far as sensitivity-training goes on how to deal with a transgender individual. This is actually very helpful.

I guess i kind of regret making that comment, i just knew there would be people coming out of the woodworks to say something inflamatory just to express themselves, not that they cant, just seems like they are working to cause other strife, thats all.

And i respect your stance on the topic as well. I guess if you wanted my opnion on how to treat them, reguardless of if you see them as male or female, if they look like they are attempting a male form call them male, female call them female, and if they are too androygnous

then i guess you could just use non-gendered remarks like, "hey you" , or "excuse me" and wait till they bring up something to indicate what they are.

Either way, thanks for the tame response.

No problem.
I'm not about to berate you because you think 'guidelines to being a socially responsible person around transgender folk' is a waste of time; given society is built on socially responsible people.

thethird0611:

Rosiv:
@thethird0611

Im gonna have to stop you real quick. You have some bad information.

In my four years of pursuing my Psych degree, I actually did research over the causes of transexuality. Did you know that there is MORE evidence toward it being a psychological aspect than a biological aspect?

There have actually been twin studies that help to prove this. Let me explain a twin study to you. Since both were born from the same egg/sperm, they are going to be biologically identical. This means that if some characteristic is present in one twin, then if its biological, it is present in the other twin. If it is another factor, it wont be in the other twin.

Ya know, it help if you provide a source, when general sources say otherwise. Either way twin studies dont prove jack sorry. You cant eliminate environment factors from them, which make them kind of moot.

You could say that there are more transsexuals today than before because most of our basic needs are always fulfilled, so we focus on other things, and for some of those it may be sexuality. You know, evolving society and culture.

You could say that, but to be honesty id rather some source say it instead. You cant just make an entire post claiming Psychological causes, stating someone is mis-inforiming, and without any source, expect me to just "take your word on it" right?

Please read the rest of my post. Thank you.

Also, the second part... its called a Hypothesis, a personal thought on the subject of Transexuality. This is why I do not like to post what I have researched, because nothing but passive aggressiveness comes from it when I do nothing but bring a non-biased point to the conversation. I will not be responding to anymore quotes from you either. If you would like to send a private message, ill happily reply to that.

I read all of your post, so dont give me some condescending "Thank you" like i wouldnt.

And a personal thought is just a opinion, generally speaking hypotheses connotate the scientific ones,and since we were both talking about the science behind it if there was a confusion between your opinion and a scientific hypotheses, it should be understandable. And in order for a hypothesis to be credible as a scientific one, it has to be testable, which is why i asked for some type of source.

Now I know i don't have much to back up any "non psychological" reasons behinds transgenderism, which is why i don't argue it in the first place. And to call yourself non biased when you major in psychology and proposing a psychological opinion is a bit off, not that bias is a bad thing.

SaneAmongInsane:

Just don't be a dick.

Simple. Logical. Perfect.

After reading this thread, I often wonder why people complicate things so much. I'm going to go with it can all be summed up by this nice little one liner. Just treat people nice regardless of their situation. Being nice doesn't mean you have to believe in what they do, or even like it. You don't want people being a dick to you, so don't be one back. Simple.

We don't need a guide on how to treat people kindly. That's just silly.

thethird0611:
snip

I'm gonna have to stop you right there. If it were entirely social as your myopic study claims then HRT would have no effect. There would be no noticeable effect from HRT if it were purely social. If it were a purely socialized condition then trans individuals would need to complete transition before any effects were noticed. This is simply not the case. Every trans individual I've talked to, including myself, have experienced immense relief of symptoms upon starting HRT, no transition necessary.

Additionally I can guarantee you that for every study you find trying to cop gender dysphoria to socialization there are at least 2 others that suggest biological causes. Furthermore any reputable member of the psych field realizes and acknowledges that the majority of what we 'know' about the brain is inaccurate at this point because it is far too complex an organ for us to have adequately documented it in any capacity given the time our species has existed and been capable of such studies.

I spent a decade immersed in the psych field, so don't come in here, both mouths blazing, shooting off about some vague study you may or may not have understood correctly at some point in your life and act like it's gospel. It's people like you who jump to conclusions that make life difficult for the trans members of society. So until you have something to offer besides some loose accusation that everything I've lived through, experienced and learned in the past 20 years is somehow inferior to some vague study you can't be bothered to reference because you no longer have someone handing you the URL, keep your mouth shut.

Dr. Pepper Unlimited:

SaneAmongInsane:

Just don't be a dick.

Simple. Logical. Perfect.

After reading this thread, I often wonder why people complicate things so much. I'm going to go with it can all be summed up by this nice little one liner. Just treat people nice regardless of their situation. Being nice doesn't mean you have to believe in what they do, or even like it. You don't want people being a dick to you, so don't be one back. Simple.

We don't need a guide on how to treat people kindly. That's just silly.

I've seen articles around the internet like these and I don't understand why they exist. I suppose submitting an article or whatever with a title and nothing more than "Don't be a dick" in the body would make their editors weep in dismay.

Maybe I'm just being ignorant, but I was always told not to be an asshole towards someone that's different from you, and you just try to see where they're coming from. I guess seeing guides like these kinda just shows that some people are dick heads.

Dr. Pepper Unlimited:

We don't need a guide on how to treat people kindly. That's just silly.

Hahaha, life experience called and it wants to know how that naivete is working out for you.

In all seriousness, we kind of do need a guide on how to treat people because alot of people are horrible. Ask anyone who has ever worked retail. The issue is that the majority of civilized people that encounter something different or strange (to them) initially react by thinking to themselves, "oh that's a little weird but whatever" and just brush it off without any further judgement. The problem comes in when people get irrational and react with a, "kill it, kill it with fire!!!!" mentality.

I have had people react to me with a range from genuine curiosity to meh whatever floats your boat to your existence offends me and if you were my kid I would have strangled you in your sleep.

Fiz_The_Toaster:

I've seen articles around the internet like these and I don't understand why they exist. I suppose submitting an article or whatever with a title and nothing more than "Don't be a dick" in the body would make their editors weep in dismay.

Maybe I'm just being ignorant, but I was always told not to be an asshole towards someone that's different from you, and you just try to see where they're coming from. I guess seeing guides like these kinda just shows that some people are dick heads.

I don't think you're ignorant, but I do think you're missing something:

Namely, a lot of people seem to think that "don't be a dick" comes with several asterisks. We have entire bodies of work justifying why it's okay to be a dick to X group, or why it's not actually being a dick. This thread has a fair number of examples, especially on the latter point.

Are you familiar with the joke "there are two things I can't stand: intolerance and jews." The actual group changes, and it's usually a harsher term, but the idea remains the same, and it's a play on a fairly human concept.

If not for those asterisks, we probably wouldn't have had civil rights issues in this country.

Zachary Amaranth:

Fiz_The_Toaster:

I've seen articles around the internet like these and I don't understand why they exist. I suppose submitting an article or whatever with a title and nothing more than "Don't be a dick" in the body would make their editors weep in dismay.

Maybe I'm just being ignorant, but I was always told not to be an asshole towards someone that's different from you, and you just try to see where they're coming from. I guess seeing guides like these kinda just shows that some people are dick heads.

I don't think you're ignorant, but I do think you're missing something:

Namely, a lot of people seem to think that "don't be a dick" comes with several asterisks. We have entire bodies of work justifying why it's okay to be a dick to X group, or why it's not actually being a dick. This thread has a fair number of examples, especially on the latter point.

Are you familiar with the joke "there are two things I can't stand: intolerance and jews." The actual group changes, and it's usually a harsher term, but the idea remains the same, and it's a play on a fairly human concept.

If not for those asterisks, we probably wouldn't have had civil rights issues in this country.

See I get that, but I guess I find it just...sad... that these things need to exist as of now.

However, I'm not surprised that there are people out there that think it's okay to disrespect a group of people just because they either don't like them or agree with them. I'm fully aware that "people are shit and will do shitty things", but, like you said, the civil rights movement came out of it, so maybe something positive will come out of it.

I'm just tired of seeing my own cynicism be justified when I see shit like this.

It gets really old really fast.

Sonic Doctor:
I'm going to say no on #8. I'm going to say fake, just as I'm going to call women fake that get breast implants because they want bigger breasts. A person that has willing cosmetic surgery, that isn't to correct something caused by a disease like cancer, or a disfiguring accident like burns from a fire, I'm going to call fake.

Why? Seems rather judgemental. Do you have something against girls who just want bigger boobs? I know one, and she's not remotely shallow or otherwise appearance-obsessed.

Besides, people being born with brains of the opposite gender to their bodies is a medically recognised phenomenon. Not a disease, sure, but the surgery is to correct a mistake.

Jux:

Lovely Mixture:

Jux:

I... don't know how to respond to this. Is "I prefer to referred to as 'X pronoun'" really comparable to requesting I speak in a language I don't know? To say the two are in anyway the same is a complete mind fuck for me.

If you get people who are going to get so offended by the fact that you don't refer to them as "Ze." All I can see is the litigious lawsuits that are going to unfold.

We already get lawsuits over people getting forced to use English instead of their native language.

Maybe I'm just really pessimistic. But all I see are similar results with people suing each other over use of different words.

Where did the talk of lawsuits come from? I'm just talking about addressing people by a pronoun they feel comfortable with as a social courtesy, and how the inconvenience it places on the requestee is incomparable to asking someone to speak another language.

Lovely Mixture:

Jux:

I'm sorry, come again?

Which he said in reference to "stop demanding that you be referred to by a different pronoun, do something that doesn't enforce terminology on others." Or at least that's how I saw it, he didn't say it was unimportant.

When I read it, it appeared he was attempting to dictate what is and isn't suitable criteria for how one builds their self identity, as it was in reference to the story about his experience in college.

My position is this: If you're going to do something that antagonizes someone needlessly, you're being a dick. We're not talking about someone blowing up in his face over a simple misunderstanding and him getting defensive, we're talking about him refusing to address people by a pronoun they identify with for completely arbitrary, undefined reasons.

With me, you can be "he" or "she". I'm not going to call you a new word like "ze" or "ou" just because you feel in-between or neither.

Twice already I've actually written long responses to people on this thread and something has caused them not to be published. I'm starting to think God doesn't want me to share my opinion, which would mean it's wrong. At the same time, I'm thinking about Romans 14 and remembering Paul saying he'd "become all things to all people," so...

But I'll try to clarify a few things in this, my last post on the subject.

You have my permission (not that you need it, of course) to craft your identity out of whatever you like. If you want "transsexual" to be the word you use to define yourself if you only have one word, go ahead. I just think it's a really bad idea. What does your sexuality, your gender, dictate about your life? What besides who and how you want to copulate and which restroom you go into at restaurants? And you want to carry new language with you wherever you go and basically demand that others use that new language because you have these ideas about yourself? I see that as a sort of burden-shifting. It's a way of outsourcing the work of finding out and living with who you are by insisting others call you something new.

I've seen that a lot. A girl I studied martial arts with gave herself a new name every few months, like Anna or Abigail. We found out her name was actually Paula. I just don't recognize the right of a person to say "It's Abigail now. I know you've been calling me Anna, but you must now call me Abigail."

My teacher in that class had a doctorate in Japanese History. The group got into a discussion on titles and he made it clear that he always corrected people who called him "Mr." I wanted to say, "That's fine if you're talking about Japanese history, but how does your doctorate come into play if we're chilling at a bar? Then it just seems arrogant."

Asking me to call you "ze" is like asking men to put the toilet seat down in a public restroom. Why? I dated a girl who said such notices were slightly insulting, as if she weren't smart enough to check before dunking her butt in the toilet. She knew she shared the world with people who didn't pee like her; why can't all women?

So that's what it comes down to for me. Asking me to call you "ze" because you feel differently from the last male-presenting or anatomically-female person I met is like insisting I call you "Sir." I don't care all that much that you "need" it to feel good. I'm tempted to respond, "Okay, I'll call you 'ze'. By the by, when you addres me from now on, it's Admiral Miller."

For me, it really has nothing to do with my belief that, as much as many want it to be otherwise, there are still only two genders. It has nothing to do with my desire to only get romantic with cisgendered straight women (honestly, I'm surprised there hasn't been a call to change "straight" because it's too heteronormative). It's just a matter of you asking for a degree of special recognition I don't think you deserve. You're asking me to remember every time I see you or talk about you that you require an additional level of linguistic nuance.

Call me "Admiral."

That rankling feeling you just got, reading that? That's what I'm talking about.

Fiz_The_Toaster:

See I get that, but I guess I find it just...sad... that these things need to exist as of now.

However, I'm not surprised that there are people out there that think it's okay to disrespect a group of people just because they either don't like them or agree with them. I'm fully aware that "people are shit and will do shitty things", but, like you said, the civil rights movement came out of it, so maybe something positive will come out of it.

I'm just tired of seeing my own cynicism be justified when I see shit like this.

It gets really old really fast.

Ah. diction confusion. My bad.

The only problem is that the solution will only come because of the problem in the first place. If we treated blacks and women (and asians, natives, and just about everyoen else) like human beings, there would be no need for a civil rights movement to begin with. Hate only leads to a solution because it creates the problem in the first place.

Sonic Doctor:
I'm going to say no on #8. I'm going to say fake, just as I'm going to call women fake that get breast implants because they want bigger breasts. A person that has willing cosmetic surgery, that isn't to correct something caused by a disease like cancer, or a disfiguring accident like burns from a fire, I'm going to call fake.

Don't look at is as cosmetic so much as therapeutic or reconstructive. Being transsexual is effectively a birth defect.

As far as I'm concerned on #6, a relationship where the partner finds out mid relationship that the other is transgender should never happen. I lose all respect for a person that will hide who they are/were and where they've come from before they enter a relationship. I consider it a violation of the non-transgendered people and really a waste of their time if they wouldn't have been okay with it to begin with. People could end up spending months, maybe years on a relationship, but then find out that they wasted their time, and because of it, there is the possibility that it made them miss a relationship that would actually go somewhere.

You know, this is sort of like the "fake gamer girl" thing, where people insist they're against posers but only really seem to apply it in one direction. The fact is, most people lie in relationships. People tend to lie a lot. People tend to be very selective in their disdain for transsexuals "lying" in relationships, though the circumstances are generally far more complex than a lot of things people fake in relationships (interests and commonalities). A lot is kept from people in relationships, but this seems to be, you know, different because ponies.

I mean, if you're truly against dishonesty, I suppose that's one thing. It's just that this argument tends to come from people who would be far more forgiving if not for the "ew tranny!" factor. And I'm pretty sure most people do it without thinking about the double standards they're laying down (see, again: fake gamer girl).

The worst thing a person can do when starting a relationship, is hiding huge parts of their life, doing so is willingly setting up a failed relationship, one built on deceit.

"Because in their mind they know they are something else", isn't enough for me.[/quote]

ItsNotRudy:

Everyone' got their problems, mutilating yourself and not really looking like either gender doesn't really seem like a resolution. Men who want to feel like they're women still often look like men. Same goes for women going the other way. You'll still not be the opposite gender, you'll appear to be the opposite gender to the visually impaired or from a distance. We have a national celebrity who is transgender, and while I have to admit it's done very well (I'll assume it's the best money can buy), there are still features and voice traits that are a dead giveaway.

I feel like most of these issues will be swept away within a decade or two (maybe three) with advancement in stem cell research and medical sciences, after which post-op individuals will be undeniably feminine or masculine (respective to mtf and ftm of course).

Normally I'm in support of solving social issues the "hard but true way", like instead of banning behavior people should learn to be nice. etc.

Or people should become more accepting of people with gender identity difficulties... BUT, in this latter case, it is a thing that can so easily be swept under the rug by more advanced technology, so in this case I say just play the waiting game.

Of course it's not so easy as that, for the transgendered themselves, unfortunately.

I dont think its so much as

You're asking me to remember every time I see you or talk about you that you require an additional level of linguistic nuance.

as you make it out to be. Its like how white people had to stop calling blacks negro/colored even though it was a very contextual and defining word. It was complicated ya, but now a days i dont think you really hear black people being called as such do you? I just think transgender women want to be called she, and transgender men he, and if you can manage that i wouldnt see any problem. I mean to call using 3 words a burden, when the alternative is their /depression/suicide seems a bit rough.

As for gender-queers and "ze" however i guess that does become problematic. As per your example with the women changing her name every month, there are "Bi-gendered" people who do change from male to female and then back to female to male, even wtih surgeries/HRT sometimes. And the frequent shift in looks can get confusing. But i mean, if you see someone who looks androgynous cant you just avoid using gender pronouns, or if you are truly familiar, ask them nicely? I dont think its too much trouble, given the flak they have to deal with with less understanding people.

Jegsimmons:

*slaps own head*
well DUUR!!
thats pretty obvious, especially since moderators have itchier trigger fingers than Wild Bill Hitchcock.

He prides himself on his itchy trigger finger, and you took that away, son.

I'mma have to put you down now. 'Tis the kindest thing t'do. *loads shotgun*

But no, really, we're not that bad. =P

Zachary Amaranth:

The fact is, most people lie in relationships. People tend to lie a lot. People tend to be very selective in their disdain for transsexuals "lying" in relationships, though the circumstances are generally far more complex than a lot of things people fake in relationships (interests and commonalities). A lot is kept from people in relationships, but this seems to be, you know, different because ponies.

The worst thing a person can do when starting a relationship, is hiding huge parts of their life, doing so is willingly setting up a failed relationship, one built on deceit.

"Because in their mind they know they are something else", isn't enough for me.

I tend to agree, for the most part. It's not about the subject of the lie, per se (although I would consider this a deal breaker if the information was revealed to me well into what I thought was a relationship with respect and sharing), But the act of lying itself. I don't see it as a 'because ponies' issue, at that point - after all, this is hiding the fact that you're a transsexual, not that you are a transsexual who is hiding something.

mrblakemiller:
Twice already I've actually written long responses to people on this thread and something has caused them not to be published. I'm starting to think God doesn't want me to share my opinion, which would mean it's wrong. At the same time, I'm thinking about Romans 14 and remembering Paul saying he'd "become all things to all people," so...

I've run into the same problem recently, I now Ctrl+C every post in the event it doesn't go through the first time.

mrblakemiller:
But I'll try to clarify a few things in this, my last post on the subject.

You have my permission (not that you need it, of course) to craft your identity out of whatever you like. If you want "transsexual" to be the word you use to define yourself if you only have one word, go ahead. I just think it's a really bad idea. What does your sexuality, your gender, dictate about your life? What besides who and how you want to copulate and which restroom you go into at restaurants? And you want to carry new language with you wherever you go and basically demand that others use that new language because you have these ideas about yourself? I see that as a sort of burden-shifting. It's a way of outsourcing the work of finding out and living with who you are by insisting others call you something new.

Who said anything about identifying yourself with a singular thing? Leave the strawmen out mate. I said it could very well be important. You either didn't read, or ignored, something in one of my previous posts that I feel is very important in addressing this. Your sexuality and gender may not be in the foreground of what you consider defines your identity, but if you spent your whole life struggling with those things, is it not reasonable that they would be very important to you? As for new language, lexicon is always changing. This isn't burden shifting. It's finding the current lexicon inadequate in describing a concept, and making a word to fit that concept.

mrblakemiller:
I've seen that a lot. A girl I studied martial arts with gave herself a new name every few months, like Anna or Abigail. We found out her name was actually Paula. I just don't recognize the right of a person to say "It's Abigail now. I know you've been calling me Anna, but you must now call me Abigail."

And you compare someone that wants to be called something new every month to someone that wants to be called a pronoun that you aren't familiar with?

mrblakemiller:
My teacher in that class had a doctorate in Japanese History. The group got into a discussion on titles and he made it clear that he always corrected people who called him "Mr." I wanted to say, "That's fine if you're talking about Japanese history, but how does your doctorate come into play if we're chilling at a bar? Then it just seems arrogant."

I am assuming he wanted to be addressed as 'Dr.'. It's called etiquette. If you're not on familiar enough terms with someone that you're still using titles, if the guy has a doctorate, you call him Dr.

mrblakemiller:
Asking me to call you "ze" is like asking men to put the toilet seat down in a public restroom. Why? I dated a girl who said such notices were slightly insulting, as if she weren't smart enough to check before dunking her butt in the toilet. She knew she shared the world with people who didn't pee like her; why can't all women?

If it's a unisex bathroom, I probably would be putting the toilet seat down, as a common courtesy, but hey, maybe that's just me.

mrblakemiller:
So that's what it comes down to for me. Asking me to call you "ze" because you feel differently from the last male-presenting or anatomically-female person I met is like insisting I call you "Sir." I don't care all that much that you "need" it to feel good. I'm tempted to respond, "Okay, I'll call you 'ze'. By the by, when you addres me from now on, it's Admiral Miller."

If you are an Admiral in some countries naval forces, it would be perfectly acceptable for you to request that.

mrblakemiller:
For me, it really has nothing to do with my belief that, as much as many want it to be otherwise, there are still only two genders.

And what happens when someone identifies as both, or neither, or fluid between the two?

mrblakemiller:
It has nothing to do with my desire to only get romantic with cisgendered straight women (honestly, I'm surprised there hasn't been a call to change "straight" because it's too heteronormative).

Wha-?

mrblakemiller:
It's just a matter of you asking for a degree of special recognition I don't think you deserve.

This is actually quite telling, I think it sums up your attitude perfectly.

mrblakemiller:
You're asking me to remember every time I see you or talk about you that you require an additional level of linguistic nuance.

So, at what age did you decide your vocabulary was big enough, and refused to learn new words?

mrblakemiller:
Call me "Admiral."

That rankling feeling you just got, reading that? That's what I'm talking about.

It was a feeling of sadness. Sadness for your lack of compassion for a fellow human being.

Zachary Amaranth:

Sonic Doctor:
I'm going to say no on #8. I'm going to say fake, just as I'm going to call women fake that get breast implants because they want bigger breasts. A person that has willing cosmetic surgery, that isn't to correct something caused by a disease like cancer, or a disfiguring accident like burns from a fire, I'm going to call fake.

Don't look at is as cosmetic so much as therapeutic or reconstructive. Being transsexual is effectively a birth defect.

I still will only see it as cosmetic. If I'm going to look at it in a birth defect, it is the wrong kind of mind in the proper body given, so in a sense it would be a mental defect, which means the route should be to fix the mind, not the body.

If you alter a dogs to look like cats, they are still cats.
If you attach legs to snakes, you aren't convincing me that they are lizards.
If you alter men to look like women, you aren't going to wipe away the fact that they were once men.

Zachary Amaranth:

You know, this is sort of like the "fake gamer girl" thing, where people insist they're against posers but only really seem to apply it in one direction. The fact is, most people lie in relationships. People tend to lie a lot. People tend to be very selective in their disdain for transsexuals "lying" in relationships, though the circumstances are generally far more complex than a lot of things people fake in relationships (interests and commonalities). A lot is kept from people in relationships, but this seems to be, you know, different because ponies.

I mean, if you're truly against dishonesty, I suppose that's one thing. It's just that this argument tends to come from people who would be far more forgiving if not for the "ew tranny!" factor. And I'm pretty sure most people do it without thinking about the double standards they're laying down (see, again: fake gamer girl).

Different because ponies? This is not a trivial learn to like it thing, and far from harmless.

It is a matter principle. I'm straight, I will only date women. I will never see a man cosmetically altered to be a woman, as a woman. If I was duped into dating one(because there is a chance that the cosmetic surgery is stupidly good, and the person is extremely deceitful, good at keeping secrets), that is basically violating me, tricking me into doing something I would never do(date a man), it doesn't matter how convinced the person is that they are a woman.

By saying that they shouldn't have to reveal what they were and that I should just accept it, means that you are trying to say their needs and well-being are more important. That is a load of bull. A relationship is about equality of needs and well-being, if a guy that is now a girl, hides the fact that she was once a he, from a guy she is about to date, that is starting the relationship on an unequal footing in the transgendered person's favor. It is not a trivial thing that the guy is oblivious to that, because it is a violation, that guy isn't actually getting what he needs. I feel I will need to have a relationship in the future, in order for me to fill that need, I need a true and proper 100% woman, one that was born one not just mentally, but physically. That is a part that makes up compatibility for a proper relationship, it is not a trivial get over "because of human progress" thing.

It would be downright irresponsible for transgendered people not to reveal their past when entering a relationship, because they go in knowing that most likely if the other person found out there would be a 95% or more chance that the other person is going to break it off, also a very high chance that the other person will fly off the handle, because it is extremely deceitful and a violation of that person. I for one would seek legal recourse, reparations for mental damages, because it would definitely mess with, if not ruin my mental state if such a thing happened to me.

Lastly, it just isn't like "fake gamer girls". I'd be fine if the woman I got into a relationship with wasn't a gamer. I'd be fine if she faked interest in it, because that will be done in relationships. That is very minor compatibility thing. I'd run for the hills if the "woman" was once a man. That is a huge compatibility issue.
For me:
Man + Woman = initial compatibility.
Man + Woman(was a man) = Impossible compatibility.

If such people want me to respect that they see themselves differently, they have to respect that I don't. It is a two way street. If I have to respect their boundaries, they have to respect mine.

It would be downright irresponsible for transgendered people not to reveal their past when entering a relationship, because they go in knowing that most likely if the other person found out there would be a 95% or more chance that the other person is going to break it off, also a very high chance that the other person will fly off the handle, because it is extremely deceitful and a violation of that person. I for one would seek legal recourse, reparations for mental damages, because it would definitely mess with, if not ruin my mental state if such a thing happened to me.

I mean i guess i cant change your opinion on how you view them. Although i wish you had at least responded to my phenotype is sex argument. Nevertheless, if honesty is so important, why not tell your significant others you don't like trans women? That way, if they are transgender they know to break it off, and they dont have to come out as trans, which can be a bit of a rollercoster. And ya thats why trans people DONT tell anyone their trans status, alot of them want to pass as women. And there are cases of when they are outed as transgender that they get killed/raped/beaten. A popular example is the story of brandon tenna, a transgender man, who had all 3 done to him because of his trans-status. Also im pretty sure its something you cant sue over, mental reparations being very week, as a transgender women could sue you for the exact same reasons for simply mis-gendering her. Although i think there was a case in the UK that happened like this and went against the trans persons favor, so who knows.

So in closing, it be better for you to disclose your lack of interest in transgender women, so you dont find yourself in a situation where you would have these mental damages. Because im pretty sure a transgender women if she passed well enough wouldn't just tell anyone, due to the risks i mentioned above. And i mean i know you don't see them as women, but cant you at least call them such? Is it really that hard? I mean you cant sympathize with them on any level?

Rosiv:
Also im pretty sure its something you cant sue over, mental reparations being very week, as a transgender women could sue you for the exact same reasons for simply mis-gendering her. Although i think there was a case in the UK that happened like this and went against the trans persons favor, so who knows.

IIRC, recently, as in in the past week or two, it had been decided that a transgender person having sex with someone without revealing that they were transgender was guilty of rape.

thaluikhain:

Rosiv:
Also im pretty sure its something you cant sue over, mental reparations being very week, as a transgender women could sue you for the exact same reasons for simply mis-gendering her. Although i think there was a case in the UK that happened like this and went against the trans persons favor, so who knows.

IIRC, recently, as in in the past week or two, it had been decided that a transgender person having sex with someone without revealing that they were transgender was guilty of rape.

Ya the thing is though, did they rape them and was transgender or was transgender and they claimed rape? I mean im not sure what case it is, so if you have a source it be nice, but i read something about a FtM transman being accused a rape because he dated 15 year old girls, and not necessarily because he was trans.

Rosiv:

thaluikhain:

Rosiv:
Also im pretty sure its something you cant sue over, mental reparations being very week, as a transgender women could sue you for the exact same reasons for simply mis-gendering her. Although i think there was a case in the UK that happened like this and went against the trans persons favor, so who knows.

IIRC, recently, as in in the past week or two, it had been decided that a transgender person having sex with someone without revealing that they were transgender was guilty of rape.

Ya the thing is though, did they rape them and was transgender or was transgender and they claimed rape? I mean im not sure what case it is, so if you have a source it be nice, but i read something about a FtM transman being accused a rape because he dated 15 year old girls, and not necessarily because he was trans.

The transgender individual is guilty of rape for not disclosing being trans.

http://www.complicity.co.uk/blog/2013/06/court-of-appeal-confirms-stealth-trans-people-having-sex-are-criminals/

Rosiv:

So in closing, it be better for you to disclose your lack of interest in transgender women, so you dont find yourself in a situation where you would have these mental damages. Because im pretty sure a transgender women if she passed well enough wouldn't just tell anyone, due to the risks i mentioned above. And i mean i know you don't see them as women, but cant you at least call them such? Is it really that hard? I mean you cant sympathize with them on any level?

I guess if that is what the world is becoming, then I guess I will have to find a minimally awkward way to enter a relationship and say that I only date women that were born women, inside and out.

Like it is hardwired into their brains that they are really women, my brain is hardwired to only be attracted to 100% natural women.

It is a sexual preference, and from what I've read, science says that is a hardwired unchangeable thing.

The only level of respect/sympathy I would be able to give them is to fake it when talking about that person in saying things like, "she did this and she did that". Beyond that, I would still consider such people as what they were born, not what they altered themselves to be because that is how they see themselves.

I just can't go beyond that, it is a total impasse, 100% can't be changed.

thaluikhain:

Rosiv:

thaluikhain:

IIRC, recently, as in in the past week or two, it had been decided that a transgender person having sex with someone without revealing that they were transgender was guilty of rape.

Ya the thing is though, did they rape them and was transgender or was transgender and they claimed rape? I mean im not sure what case it is, so if you have a source it be nice, but i read something about a FtM transman being accused a rape because he dated 15 year old girls, and not necessarily because he was trans.

The transgender individual is guilty of rape for not disclosing being trans.

http://www.complicity.co.uk/blog/2013/06/court-of-appeal-confirms-stealth-trans-people-having-sex-are-criminals/

Well that is in the UK so i guess its limited in scope to there. Although im not sure
why gender was more important as age or family status, HIV even? The article brought
up alot of good counters so hopefully this will get overturned somehow. Just seems
totally arbitrary.

Rosiv:

thaluikhain:

Rosiv:

Ya the thing is though, did they rape them and was transgender or was transgender and they claimed rape? I mean im not sure what case it is, so if you have a source it be nice, but i read something about a FtM transman being accused a rape because he dated 15 year old girls, and not necessarily because he was trans.

The transgender individual is guilty of rape for not disclosing being trans.

http://www.complicity.co.uk/blog/2013/06/court-of-appeal-confirms-stealth-trans-people-having-sex-are-criminals/

Well that is in the UK so i guess its limited in scope to there. Although im not sure
why gender was more important as age or family status, HIV even? The article brought
up alot of good counters so hopefully this will get overturned somehow. Just seems
totally arbitrary.

Well, to be honest, if a trans person didn't disclose to me before sex took place, I'd feel pretty violated.

Shadowstar38:

Rosiv:

thaluikhain:

The transgender individual is guilty of rape for not disclosing being trans.

http://www.complicity.co.uk/blog/2013/06/court-of-appeal-confirms-stealth-trans-people-having-sex-are-criminals/

Well that is in the UK so i guess its limited in scope to there. Although im not sure
why gender was more important as age or family status, HIV even? The article brought
up alot of good counters so hopefully this will get overturned somehow. Just seems
totally arbitrary.

Well, to be honest, if a trans person didn't disclose to me before sex took place, I'd feel pretty violated.

Yea i guess i cant argue that how you feel is wrong, but it seems that there are so
much more serious things you could lie about. Like having a prison sentence/sex offender
/HIV/children. The first 3 put you at actual risk, while the 4th could hold you financially
burdened if you continued a relationship. As for the transgender issue, the only thing you could argue is
"mental anguish" really as a disadvantage. To call it rape seems a bit harsh given the circumstances of transpeople and their stealth/passing.

ellieallegro:

Dr. Pepper Unlimited:

We don't need a guide on how to treat people kindly. That's just silly.

Hahaha, life experience called and it wants to know how that naivete is working out for you.

In all seriousness, we kind of do need a guide on how to treat people because alot of people are horrible. Ask anyone who has ever worked retail...

I'm sorry, what?

Ask anyone who has worked retail? I have a decade of working retail under my belt and now currently hold a job in law enforcement and interact with all walks of life, civilized and the irate. It's what I do. It's what I've always done. You still don't need a guide.

Sonic Doctor:

I still will only see it as cosmetic. If I'm going to look at it in a birth defect, it is the wrong kind of mind in the proper body given, so in a sense it would be a mental defect, which means the route should be to fix the mind, not the body.

There's nothing wrong with the mind, however.

In bot your statements here (both about it being a mental defect and about it being cosmetic) you are riding up against the medical and psychological community. Also, the rammifications of altering the mind are a bit...Monstrous in here. There's a reason we do it the way we do. There is no treatment, no therapy for something which is not actually broken. Except at those Bible camps.

As I go through the rest of this response, keep in mind that if you disagree with the science, it's not the science that is at fault. If you want to continue to believe such things are merely cosmetic, I can't stop you. I also cannot stop people from believing the earth is flat or gays can be fixed by prayer.

If you alter a dogs to look like cats, they are still cats.
If you attach legs to snakes, you aren't convincing me that they are lizards.

You do understand that men and women aren't different species, right? That's kind of a bad argument.

If you alter men to look like women, you aren't going to wipe away the fact that they were once men.

Except, you're not doing that. I mean, you can define it that way if you choose, but it's no more true than any other folk wisdom.

Different because ponies? This is not a trivial learn to like it thing, and far from harmless.

If you were to sleep with a transwoman and never find out, how would you actually be harmed?

It is a matter principle. I'm straight, I will only date women. I will never see a man cosmetically altered to be a woman, as a woman. If I was duped into dating one(because there is a chance that the cosmetic surgery is stupidly good, and the person is extremely deceitful, good at keeping secrets), that is basically violating me, tricking me into doing something I would never do(date a man), it doesn't matter how convinced the person is that they are a woman.

I hope you screen all your partners' chromosomes then, because there's a small but significant portion of the female population with XY chromosomes. You may have already been "violated" and didn't know it! Why, they blend in even better than those "cosmetically altered" women!

By saying that they shouldn't have to reveal what they were and that I should just accept it, means that you are trying to say their needs and well-being are more important.

I don't know who you're addressing, but I'm certainly saying neither. I'm merely trying to educate you. The same as I would do to a Flat Earther. I won't, at the end of the day, tell you that you should change your world view. Only point out the inconsistencies and remind you that you're out of touch with the science.

Of course, maybe transsexualism is all a conspiracy theory, too. Like, the medical and psychological communities of the world basically ganged up and decided to screw with your for the lulz or something. Biologists really have the same concept of sex as you, but are just trolling to try and get straight guys to sleep with teh menz.

A relationship is about equality of needs and well-being, if a guy that is now a girl, hides the fact that she was once a he, from a guy she is about to date, that is starting the relationship on an unequal footing in the transgendered person's favor. It is not a trivial thing that the guy is oblivious to that, because it is a violation, that guy isn't actually getting what he needs. I feel I will need to have a relationship in the future, in order for me to fill that need, I need a true and proper 100% woman, one that was born one not just mentally, but physically. That is a part that makes up compatibility for a proper relationship, it is not a trivial get over "because of human progress" thing.

At least you're admitting it's your shortcoming.

It would be downright irresponsible for transgendered people not to reveal their past when entering a relationship, because they go in knowing that most likely if the other person found out there would be a 95% or more chance that the other person is going to break it off, also a very high chance that the other person will fly off the handle, because it is extremely deceitful and a violation of that person. I for one would seek legal recourse, reparations for mental damages, because it would definitely mess with, if not ruin my mental state if such a thing happened to me.

I like how you have a blatant disregard for hard facts but feel free to throw out fake numbers.

The point I will go back to is that lying in a relationship, especially during the formative part, is incredibly common. You've made it pretty clear that this is only really a problem for you if that lie is of a medical nature that offends your own prejudices, but that doesn't really change my argument. Sorry.

Lastly, it just isn't like "fake gamer girls". I'd be fine if the woman I got into a relationship with wasn't a gamer. I'd be fine if she faked interest in it, because that will be done in relationships. That is very minor compatibility thing. I'd run for the hills if the "woman" was once a man. That is a huge compatibility issue.

Honestly, I'd fear for the life of any transwoman who was around you.

But again, the "fake gamer girl" thing was a comparison on double standards, which you ignored and tried to change up to fit your narrative. Not surprising you would ignore the actual parallel and run with something else, since you're already running against everything else of any practical matter.

If such people want me to respect that they see themselves differently, they have to respect that I don't. It is a two way street. If I have to respect their boundaries, they have to respect mine.

And there we have it. After several paragraphs of intolerance, you demand respect and tolerance. It's awesome being a straight dude, innit? You can claim persecution even as you're showing disdain, ignorance and even hostility towards another group. and withuot pause for cognitive dissonance, it seems.

You're setting up a false premise, because you're never going to respect theirs.

I wonder if you'd do the same to someone who had racial heritage that didn't match yours, yet could "pass" for it and didn't identify as such. I doubt many people would admit to it, in public at least, or call them (for example) "fake white people."

EDIT: Actually, allow me to take this one step further. I'm half Penobscot (Native American). My girlfriend has black heritage, though the amount is not exactly well-established. Neither of us are exactly going to get beat up by a Klanny at first sight. Are we (and by extension, others like us) "lying" if we don't affirmatively present ourselves as being "of mixed heritage?" What if being white was important to one of our spouses (hypothetically, assmuing we weren't together)? Crap, I've probably "disrespected" a few of my SOs, then, because there's little reason (to me) to identify myself as half "Indian." I mostly do it out of solidarity for people not "lucky" enough to "pass for white."

Zachary Amaranth:
Of course, maybe transsexualism is all a conspiracy theory, too. Like, the medical and psychological communities of the world basically ganged up and decided to screw with your for the lulz or something.

They had to do something to get their kicks once regulations on ethics put an end to setting fire to monkeys.

"fake white people."

It's the secret jews again, isn't it?

RhombusHatesYou:

Zachary Amaranth:
Of course, maybe transsexualism is all a conspiracy theory, too. Like, the medical and psychological communities of the world basically ganged up and decided to screw with your for the lulz or something.

They had to do something to get their kicks once regulations on ethics put an end to setting fire to monkeys.

"fake white people."

It's the secret jews again, isn't it?

I think it's more "still" than again, but I don't know. Us halfbloods only keep up on our own conspiracies to infiltrate decent society. >.>

You know, as much as I don't like bigotry, I get really, really, REALLY nervous when people start parading out what seriously sound like 'thoughtcrime' principals.

People should be allowed to hate. I'm sorry. But that's just the way it is. Peoples heads are their own, and so are their opinions, and they should be allowed to hold them freely. And yes, people project. They are counter to you. And you hate them. And that hate is both reasonable and justified.

But it's still hate. So I dunno. Sorry guys, but hate is built in and it SHOULD be built in. Without hate we'd be fucked.

Still for politeness first, even if you hate someone.

Bentusi16:
You know, as much as I don't like bigotry, I get really, really, REALLY nervous when people start parading out what seriously sound like 'thoughtcrime' principals.

You're making thoughtcrime into a thoughtcrime?

Zachary Amaranth:

I wonder if you'd do the same to someone who had racial heritage that didn't match yours, yet could "pass" for it and didn't identify as such. I doubt many people would admit to it, in public at least, or call them (for example) "fake white people."

EDIT: Actually, allow me to take this one step further. I'm half Penobscot (Native American). My girlfriend has black heritage, though the amount is not exactly well-established. Neither of us are exactly going to get beat up by a Klanny at first sight. Are we (and by extension, others like us) "lying" if we don't affirmatively present ourselves as being "of mixed heritage?" What if being white was important to one of our spouses (hypothetically, assmuing we weren't together)? Crap, I've probably "disrespected" a few of my SOs, then, because there's little reason (to me) to identify myself as half "Indian." I mostly do it out of solidarity for people not "lucky" enough to "pass for white."

This is in no way a valid comparison. Like at all.

Telling someone what race you are would only make a difference to a hardcore racist.

You're treating lying about being a transsexual as lightly as you would any other small lie in a relastionship. It's not. If I hypothetically want a heterosexual relationship with a woman, I would not have to worry about homosexual males hitting on me because they know my limit. I.e, I don't date men. A Mtf TS, knowing this, would have to tell me straight up that they are transsexual because, as you've seen from this thread, not everyone will agree that they are really a female or not. So them and their potential partner need to be on the same page.

If you tell them right away and they reject you, well you probably should be going out with a more accepting person and you aren't wasting anyone's time.

thaluikhain:

Bentusi16:
You know, as much as I don't like bigotry, I get really, really, REALLY nervous when people start parading out what seriously sound like 'thoughtcrime' principals.

You're making thoughtcrime into a thoughtcrime?

If you get caught in a recursive loop and disappear up your own arse I'm not pulling you out this time. My climbing gear hasn't worked properly since.

thaluikhain:

Bentusi16:
You know, as much as I don't like bigotry, I get really, really, REALLY nervous when people start parading out what seriously sound like 'thoughtcrime' principals.

You're making thoughtcrime into a thoughtcrime?

I'm so fucking confused right now...

thaluikhain:

Bentusi16:
You know, as much as I don't like bigotry, I get really, really, REALLY nervous when people start parading out what seriously sound like 'thoughtcrime' principals.

You're making thoughtcrime into a thoughtcrime?

I think we need to go deeper. BWOOOOM

But seriously yeah, thoughtcrime scares the fucking shit out of me on a fundamental, almost instinctual level.

BUt as I've stated before, I think maximum happiness for maximum amount of people = maximum productivity, both on a societal and personal level.

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