Following the pope on Twitter gets you time off purgatory

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jul/16/vatican-indulgences-pope-francis-tweets

Um...yeah.

One wonders exactly how they come up with this. I mean, purgatory is sorta beyond their jurisdiction, isn't it? Or was this decision made by an angel and relayed to the Vatican?

thaluikhain:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jul/16/vatican-indulgences-pope-francis-tweets

Um...yeah.

One wonders exactly how they come up with this. I mean, purgatory is sorta beyond their jurisdiction, isn't it? Or was this decision made by an angel and relayed to the Vatican?

Well, that could technically be argued if the pope announced it ex cathedra. Don't think he has, though.

Still, gotta hand it to the papacy, they're getting crafty.

Eh, why not? We're overdue for another Great Schism in the faith.

Also;

Indulgences these days are granted to those who carry out certain tasks - such as climbing the Sacred Steps, in Rome (reportedly brought from Pontius Pilate's house after Jesus scaled them before his crucifixion), a feat that earns believers seven years off purgatory.

Seems slightly..Arbitrary?
Do push-ups at Golgotha! Earn five years off your punishment! That's right, physical exercise can absolve your of your moral shortcomings! Exercise for Christ before it's too laaaaaaate!

image

/Faceplam.

Realitycrash:
Eh, why not? We're overdue for another Great Schism in the faith.

Also;

Indulgences these days are granted to those who carry out certain tasks - such as climbing the Sacred Steps, in Rome (reportedly brought from Pontius Pilate's house after Jesus scaled them before his crucifixion), a feat that earns believers seven years off purgatory.

Seems slightly..Arbitrary?
Do push-ups at Golgotha! Earn five years off your punishment! That's right, physical exercise can absolve your of your moral shortcomings! Exercise for Christ before it's too laaaaaaate!

image

/Faceplam.

So they can kind of be like achievements. Maybe 5 days off for following the pope. A day for each Sunday you go to church. A whole month if you say the most Hail Marys

Que? I really hope Francis himself comes out against this sometime soon, from what I've seen of him it doesn't quite seem like its his....style.

It's the Catholic church. On the grand spectrum of crazy shit, this sounds reasonable.

Well, the previous pope "abolished" Limbo to unbaptized babies before, so this sounds like a sweet deal to me.

Realitycrash:

Do push-ups at Golgotha! Earn five years off your punishment! That's right, physical exercise can absolve your of your moral shortcomings! Exercise for Christ before it's too laaaaaaate!
image

Don't know why but this made me laugh. More than it should...

thaluikhain:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jul/16/vatican-indulgences-pope-francis-tweets

Um...yeah.

One wonders exactly how they come up with this. I mean, purgatory is sorta beyond their jurisdiction, isn't it? Or was this decision made by an angel and relayed to the Vatican?

'Indulgences' have been around in some form or another since the Council of Epanon in 517, though e have records of confessors and such interceding to shorten the time spent in purgatory since the third century. This is just the Church trying to keep vaguely up-to-date with technology.

@Realitycrash

Do push-ups at Golgotha! Earn five years off your punishment! That's right, physical exercise can absolve your of your moral shortcomings! Exercise for Christ before it's too laaaaaaate!

Well, at least that could be considered some sort of penance. You know, working up a sweat, maybe even getting aching muscles from it or something.
But following the Pope on Twitter and reading his drivel on the other hand...
Wait, what am I saying? Reading anything that comes out of the Vatican absolutely should count as penance.

Realitycrash:
Eh, why not? We're overdue for another Great Schism in the faith.

They'll have to radically shorten the thesis amount this time to fit into a Twitter post though.

Didn't the last guy try tweeting for some time too? Can't imagine that the popular pope would need this motivation while the disliked could manage without.

Skeleon:
@Realitycrash

Do push-ups at Golgotha! Earn five years off your punishment! That's right, physical exercise can absolve your of your moral shortcomings! Exercise for Christ before it's too laaaaaaate!

Well, at least that could be considered some sort of penance. You know, working up a sweat, maybe even getting aching muscles from it or something.
But following the Pope on Twitter and reading his drivel on the other hand...
Wait, what am I saying? Reading anything that comes out of the Vatican absolutely should count as penance.

I never truly got how physical pain, or any kind of suffering, would work as penance. How does it help right any committed wrong? Penance as helping the needy, or showing genuine guilty as one works to better one-self in the same area as one previously strayed from the path, that I can understand..But arbitrary punishment as redemption? How does that make me a better person, or the world a better place?
And if we consider pain to be a way to purify the soul of sin, then why wouldn't money count? Losing money, especially if you have little, is painful. Working to earn said money is painful (or at least tedious and dreary).
Basically, what I am saying, is that I don't really get Purgatory at all. Hell, sure, but Purgatory, no.

This seems reminiscent of the concept of Indulgences, where you could pay the church for a sin you planned on committing in the future, which was one of the causes of the Reformation.

btw, what an amazing idea for an enterprise. No need to develop a product or service that people want to pay for, just ingrain a concept in them that compulsorily makes them give you money.

This, of course, begs a few essential questions: does following multiple languages of the Vatican Twitter compound the effect? Does following some of the Twitter handles have a greater effect, like the Latin account? Could following all of the pope's Twitter handles negate those sins I did as part of my non-porn internet browsing for yesterday?

Da Orky Man:
'Indulgences' have been around in some form or another since the Council of Epanon in 517, though e have records of confessors and such interceding to shorten the time spent in purgatory since the third century. This is just the Church trying to keep vaguely up-to-date with technology.

True, I guess getting time off for donations to the church makes more sense to me.

Realitycrash:
Eh, why not? We're overdue for another Great Schism in the faith.

True. Indulgences being granted for money was one of the final straws that led Martin Luther to rebel against the Church of Rome.

Still, long as the pope doesn't go as far as Tweeting "plenary indulgence" we won't have to worry about a couple of fallen angels "proving God wrong and wiping out all of existence."

image

Yes, because offering mass indulgences has worked out so well for the Church in the past.

Who is going to seriously believe that "YOUR SOUL WILL FACE MORE TORTURE BEFORE YOU RECEIVE SALVATION, UNLESS YOU FOLLOW THE POPE'S INSANE RAMBLINGS ONLINE!"

How can it possibly be fair, if a child in a third world country, where having a television that can receive three channels is beyond the reach of anyone in his village, gets stuck with his eyes stitched shut (read Dante) much longer than somebody with a stable internet connection?

The Gentleman:
This, of course, begs a few essential questions: does following multiple languages of the Vatican Twitter compound the effect? Does following some of the Twitter handles have a greater effect, like the Latin account? Could following all of the pope's Twitter handles negate those sins I did as part of my non-porn internet browsing for yesterday?

Sorry, it works the same as magic Armor in D&D, you can wear all you want, but you only get the enhancement bonus for one of them.

Oh look, the Vatican is trying to be hip while at the same time making themselves look like morons... Lets just get the Catholicism Wow! campaign started now.

thaluikhain:

Da Orky Man:
'Indulgences' have been around in some form or another since the Council of Epanon in 517, though e have records of confessors and such interceding to shorten the time spent in purgatory since the third century. This is just the Church trying to keep vaguely up-to-date with technology.

True, I guess getting time off for donations to the church makes more sense to me.

Why does that make sense at all? Isn't it God's decision? It doesn't seem like He set up a very good system if you can bung a few quid to one of his employees and get preferential treatment.

The Lord Your God; now accepting bribes!

Realitycrash:
I never truly got how physical pain, or any kind of suffering, would work as penance. How does it help right any committed wrong? Penance as helping the needy, or showing genuine guilty as one works to better one-self in the same area as one previously strayed from the path, that I can understand..But arbitrary punishment as redemption? How does that make me a better person, or the world a better place?
And if we consider pain to be a way to purify the soul of sin, then why wouldn't money count? Losing money, especially if you have little, is painful. Working to earn said money is painful (or at least tedious and dreary).
Basically, what I am saying, is that I don't really get Purgatory at all. Hell, sure, but Purgatory, no.

Well, I'm not a Christian nor is this something that all Christians share in the first place, but numerous people among them believe in the cleansing properties of suffering. Mother Teresa is a particularly prominent example on that, but you just need to look to self-flagellating priests and believers to see to what lengths some will go.
Purification through suffering is also the basis for Purgatory, a "Diet Hell" where your pain slowly clears away your sins so you are ready to enter the sinless Heaven afterwards.
I'd assume that this sort of real world penance and flagellation is largely based on the notion of Purgatory.

Further, consider the central figure of Christianity: A sinless man who was tortured to death and - according to some interpretations - went to Hell to be tortured some more, taking on the punishment of the world in its place. Retribution and suffering for sins is at the core of Christianity rather than forgiveness on its own without condition: Jesus suffers so you don't have to. He takes your place, but the punishment must still be dished out. Kind of like the concept of a scapegoat, taking on the sins of the community and punished in its place to cleanse said community.

Now have people take that punished man as a role model and punishment itself as a cleanser and see what they do with it in their attempt to emulate their saviour and cleanse themselves.
Perhaps not the most detailled nor most correct explanation, but I think overall a reasonably probable basis for the whole thing. Not to mention the fact that, again, people's interpretations will differ, so while this or something like it might apply to some believers in penance and pain (if I'm at all on target), other such people may have a different reasoning of course.

makes about as much sense as anything else \(_o)/

"Hurhurhur look at those stupid catholics doing something I haven't got a clue about why they're doing it, what the reasoning behind it is, or that it is part of a long tradition! Nope, must get on the hate train and ridicule everything about faith like all the other cool kids!"

Yes, you're all very clever, ironic and edgy. Clap clap clap. Do we need the ridicule and hate trains every time the smallest article about the pope or the church pops up? If it were about child abuse or another major topic, sure.
I'm getting tired of these threads, and I'm bloody agnostic.

TheBelgianGuy:
"Hurhurhur look at those stupid catholics doing something I haven't got a clue about why they're doing it, what the reasoning behind it is, or that it is part of a long tradition! Nope, must get on the hate train and ridicule everything about faith like all the other cool kids!"

Yes, you're all very clever, ironic and edgy. Clap clap clap. Do we need the ridicule and hate trains every time the smallest article about the pope or the church pops up? If it were about child abuse or another major topic, sure.
I'm getting tired of these threads, and I'm bloody agnostic.

hey look i have a fairly low opinion of "clicktivism" as it is so quite frankly this entire story strikes me as completely inane.

i don't care what the "traditions" are or what faith it is "click this website and gain favor with your God" is bullshit.

SonicWaffle:
Why does that make sense at all? Isn't it God's decision? It doesn't seem like He set up a very good system if you can bung a few quid to one of his employees and get preferential treatment.

The Lord Your God; now accepting bribes!

Surely it's in the Church's interest to tell people to give money to the Church?

TheBelgianGuy:
"Hurhurhur look at those stupid catholics doing something I haven't got a clue about why they're doing it, what the reasoning behind it is, or that it is part of a long tradition! Nope, must get on the hate train and ridicule everything about faith like all the other cool kids!"

We're not ridiculing the faith, we're ridiculing the arbitrary rules of their faith. The fact that they believe in God or the supernatural is hardly mentioned. Arbitrary moral rules are a serious problem and need to be addressed. I personally don't care if they believe in heaven or hell, but I at least wish they would show some consistency.

Skeleon:

Realitycrash:
I never truly got how physical pain, or any kind of suffering, would work as penance. How does it help right any committed wrong? Penance as helping the needy, or showing genuine guilty as one works to better one-self in the same area as one previously strayed from the path, that I can understand..But arbitrary punishment as redemption? How does that make me a better person, or the world a better place?
And if we consider pain to be a way to purify the soul of sin, then why wouldn't money count? Losing money, especially if you have little, is painful. Working to earn said money is painful (or at least tedious and dreary).
Basically, what I am saying, is that I don't really get Purgatory at all. Hell, sure, but Purgatory, no.

Well, I'm not a Christian nor is this something that all Christians share in the first place, but numerous people among them believe in the cleansing properties of suffering. Mother Teresa is a particularly prominent example on that, but you just need to look to self-flagellating priests and believers to see to what lengths some will go.
Purification through suffering is also the basis for Purgatory, a "Diet Hell" where your pain slowly clears away your sins so you are ready to enter the sinless Heaven afterwards.
I'd assume that this sort of real world penance and flagellation is largely based on the notion of Purgatory.

Further, consider the central figure of Christianity: A sinless man who was tortured to death and - according to some interpretations - went to Hell to be tortured some more, taking on the punishment of the world in its place. Retribution and suffering for sins is at the core of Christianity rather than forgiveness on its own without condition: Jesus suffers so you don't have to. He takes your place, but the punishment must still be dished out. Kind of like the concept of a scapegoat, taking on the sins of the community and punished in its place to cleanse said community.

Now have people take that punished man as a role model and punishment itself as a cleanser and see what they do with it in their attempt to emulate their saviour and cleanse themselves.
Perhaps not the most detailled nor most correct explanation, but I think overall a reasonably probable basis for the whole thing. Not to mention the fact that, again, people's interpretations will differ, so while this or something like it might apply to some believers in penance and pain (if I'm at all on target), other such people may have a different reasoning of course.

Yes, that's a nice explanation of why people do it, but not [b]how/[b] it is supposed to work. Does pain have some metaphysical property that somehow cleanses the soul? Okay, does it work with any pain? Is my cancer good for my soul? If I take no act of atonement, if I do not care about others but only myself, will my pain still be cleansing? Or is it conditional to me ALSO caring? Is the metaphysical pain-cleansing property in a quantum-state that only exists if several other states also exists, but can't exist by itself?
It..Just raises too many questions.

Hammartroll:
This seems reminiscent of the concept of Indulgences, where you could pay the church for a sin you planned on committing in the future, which was one of the causes of the Reformation.

btw, what an amazing idea for an enterprise. No need to develop a product or service that people want to pay for, just ingrain a concept in them that compulsorily makes them give you money.

To me Christianity always seemed like an exceedingly clever con. "Give us power over your government, laws, and culture, give us our own city, give us 10% of your money, and more if you want to get to heaven quicker," says the church. "But wait!" cry the masses, "What do we get out of all this?" "Oh, don't worry, says the church, everything will be fantastic after you're dead (heh, suckers...)!"

Skeleon:
snip

I'll try not to post too much in this thread, but from what I understand the theological reason for the pain undergone in purgatory is that it's the pain caused by your own sins, and that acknowledging said fact makes the process shorter or easier or more bearable or something like that.

Although given the Church's process of Confession as a way of absolving sins (with last rights also doing something similar), I'd imagine that my fellow Catholics wouldn't have to worry about Purgatory too much.

Fat lot of good this would do me anyway. As I understand it, atheists go straight to hell, there is no purgatory for us.

Realitycrash:
Does pain have some metaphysical property that somehow cleanses the soul?

In a way. It's about a simplistic notion of justice that makes punishment essential. And it's based in a time when punishment was mostly corporal. So, yes, with the suffering of pain, you are dealt the justice you deserve from their god, thus you are being cleansed. You deserved an eternal beating for your imperfections, therefore suffering releases you at least from part of it. Add up all the little pains and you can shorten your stay. Same goes for Jesus: Forgiveness only really exists in the sense that he takes on the severe punishment you deserve. It's not "I forgive you, therefore nobody gets punished". It's "I forgive you, therefore I take on the punishment you should've gotten".

EDIT:

Witty Name Here:
I'll try not to post too much in this thread, but from what I understand the theological reason for the pain undergone in purgatory is that it's the pain caused by your own sins, and that acknowledging said fact makes the process shorter or easier or more bearable or something like that.

Yes, I'm not surprised there'd be a way to weasel it to be the people's fault, after all. It's not even that you are being punished for your sins, it's that your very own sins hurt you. An attempt to release the divine agents from responsibility for the inflicted suffering, I'm sure.

TheCommanders:

Hammartroll:
This seems reminiscent of the concept of Indulgences, where you could pay the church for a sin you planned on committing in the future, which was one of the causes of the Reformation.

btw, what an amazing idea for an enterprise. No need to develop a product or service that people want to pay for, just ingrain a concept in them that compulsorily makes them give you money.

To me Christianity always seemed like an exceedingly clever con. "Give us power over your government, laws, and culture, give us our own city, give us 10% of your money, and more if you want to get to heaven quicker," says the church. "But wait!" cry the masses, "What do we get out of all this?" "Oh, don't worry, says the church, everything will be fantastic after you're dead (heh, suckers...)!"

Indeed, reminds me of why Gary Oldman's character in the Book of Eli wants the bible.

I hope someone calls them on their bullshit because seriously, follow twitter and you lose time in purgatory? Fuck off, jesus is rolling in his grave.

 

Reply to Thread

This thread is locked