"Minimum Wage Jobs aren't careers"

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Super Not Cosmo:

Vegosiux:
I better bring nothing flammable near this. Hasn't rained in a while, so the stuff this is made of is all dry. You're bashing points nobody made.

You say they are points nobody has made and I say I just preemptively responded to what would have likely been your follow up had I given you any answer besides the one I did.

Sorry, but you're overestimating your powers of clairvoyance. I am going to politely request to quit it with the presumptions and respond to what I said, not to what you think I might say.

I bet you were waiting in the wings to jump on the list of resources I used and couldn't wait to point out how all those poor unfortunate souls don't have my good fortune.

And if I was, what's it to you? Again, respond to what I said, not what you think I might say.

(Note: I wasn't. I was going to jump at you with something else, if such a jump was necessary.)

You should thank me I saved you a good deal of typing I bet.

Excuse me, what? Who do you think you are?

Vegosiux:

Super Not Cosmo:

Vegosiux:
I better bring nothing flammable near this. Hasn't rained in a while, so the stuff this is made of is all dry. You're bashing points nobody made.

You say they are points nobody has made and I say I just preemptively responded to what would have likely been your follow up had I given you any answer besides the one I did.

Sorry, but you're overestimating your powers of clairvoyance. I am going to politely request to quit it with the presumptions and respond to what I said, not to what you think I might say.

I bet you were waiting in the wings to jump on the list of resources I used and couldn't wait to point out how all those poor unfortunate souls don't have my good fortune.

And if I was, what's it to you? Again, respond to what I said, not what you think I might say.

(Note: I wasn't. I was going to jump at you with something else, if such a jump was necessary.)

You should thank me I saved you a good deal of typing I bet.

Excuse me, what? Who do you think you are?

Ok, fine, you want to know the exhaustive list of resources I had at my disposal that landed me my job as a dealer. I had a shitty resume, an even shittier car that was made during The Gipper's first term as President and the determination to either call or show up in person every. single. day. for about a month to check on my application until they finally broke down and gave me an interview.

xDarc:
This thread has went on for 3 pages with 2 questionable suspensions, and I'm not even sure what you guys are talking about here; fast food workers should make more money?

Why? Because life's not fair?

Uncle Sam is not here to force adults to share their toys.

I'm 31, I make 20 bucks an hour. When I started working at 14 years old in 1996, I made 4.25 an hour. If people want to make more money, they should pay their dues like everyone else and go out and learn marketable job skills.

Otherwise the moment that a McDonald's worker gets $15 bucks an hour, I quit and get a job flipping burgers like everyone else- so I don't have to put up with the shit at my current job anymore. I could survive on $10 an hour, I planned my whole life around losing my current job at any moment. This is the new normal.

The problem is there's no economic opportunity; it's survival of the smartest out there right now, and globalism is to blame.

I'm pretty sure the double dip recession comes next year.

It's less about fast food workers and just people in general. Our minimum wage is very low compared to the productivity of work, the hours put in, and when adjusting for inflation the average wage in the US has fallen noticeably over the years while hours have gone up.

Keep in mind, the money you make at McDs at 15 an hour will be much less because you still won't get full-time hours, nor will you get any worthwhile benefits you already likely have.

Elizabeth Warren charted our productivity to inflation to wages, and if we were going by the standards of inflation and productivity, the minimum wage should be 22/hr in the US. Instead, people struggle at $7.25 (closer to 8.25 in many places, apparently) an hour and many are on some form of welfare. I don't know if you saw the post, but 52% of all families where someone works at a fast food place are on some form of welfare. That costs us 7 billion a year in taxpayer money, and 1.2 billion of that comes from McDonalds workers alone.

Vegosiux:

So, how do you suggest the minimum wage people "improve themselves"...

I'm not speaking for Cosmo, but some people are just gonna be losers you know. If you're in your 40s and you're still working for minimum wage, you messed up. For younger people, it is simply a matter of staying in the workforce, paying your dues, and better jobs will open up as the workforce ages.

It has definitely gotten harder, but that's the way it's always worked.

So let's just assume we raise the minimum wage to $15 an hour, just because. Where does the money come from? What impact does that have on small business? What about the people who are already making $15 an hour- do they get paid more now too? You know they're going to demand it.

It would throw everything out of scale. I'm all for raising minimum wage, it's been too long, but $10 an hour is I think as far as they should go with it. Ultimately what needs to happen is we need to get rid of the globalists, and we need to get rid of the government that wants to keep people on food stamps, on welfare, on Medicaid, because that's how they control us.

It's like a feedback loop, people get poor and vote for handouts and the whole thing snowballs out of control until the US dollar is basically not worth anything. At some point, as a country, we have to take responsibility for our debts, take back our government, take back the free market, before it's too late.

xDarc:

Vegosiux:

So, how do you suggest the minimum wage people "improve themselves"...

I'm not speaking for Cosmo, but some people are just gonna be losers you know. If you're in your 40s and you're still working for minimum wage, you messed up. For younger people, it is simply a matter of staying in the workforce, paying your dues, and better jobs will open up as the workforce ages.

It has definitely gotten harder, but that's the way it's always worked.

So let's just assume we raise the minimum wage to $15 an hour, just because. Where does the money come from? What impact does that have on small business? What about the people who are already making $15 an hour- do they get paid more now too? You know they're going to demand it.

It would throw everything out of scale. I'm all for raising minimum wage, it's been too long, but $10 an hour is I think as far as they should go with it. Ultimately what needs to happen is we need to get rid of the globalists, and we need to get rid of the government that wants to keep people on food stamps, on welfare, on Medicaid, because that's how they control us.

It's like a feedback loop, people get poor and vote for handouts and the whole thing snowballs out of control until the US dollar is basically not worth anything. At some point, as a country, we have to take responsibility for our debts, take back our government, take back the free market, before it's too late.

You sound like the people at the tea party rallies near my home with those last few paragraphs there. Here's the thing, though, do you think people really LIKE living on welfare? It's not an easy life. You get very few if any chances for luxury or fun, every purchase has to last as long as possible, and in my case it gave a constant subconscious feeling of shame. I personally struggled to find work and what little work I got was 60 hours a week for minimum wage for 2 months. No overtime, no benefits beyond free post-sell-by date food, and I wound up losing almost all of it due to few weeks of terrible unexpected expenses. We'd love to take more responsibility, but we don't have the means.

"Get more education" is the standard response. Fine, I'll get a student loan and move out of my home where I will spend 18 hours a day at school and work struggling to avoid more debt and still likely end up with more as I get a degree that statistically I won't use in the career I have, if I do.

It's not all personal responsibility. If we have no means, we have no chance. People already making $15 hourly will likely want raises as well, but in that process they can either stay in the place they are working and get an expected raise or they can look for a place that will pay them more.

Where will the money come from? Raise prices. That's an expected outcome. If the prices at general places don't raise at a rate equal to the wage increase, then things would go better for all involved. Further, there's profits from larger corporate businesses. Wal-Mart rakes in over 18 billion a year in profit alone. I'm sure they could afford to pay people more. Costco already pays most people close to that and they're content making 2 to 3 billion in profits a year, AND they offer full benefits to part time employees after 6 months.

LifeCharacter:

MichiganMuscle77:
NOW we live in a time where, instead of choosing a better life for yourself and using those jobs as stepping stones to reach your goals, all you have to do is whine and cry about fairness and eventually they'll just turn on the money printers and start paying you more for doing your shitty job.

"Choosing a better life." It must be really amazing where you live where all people have to do is really want to be successful and just will a good job into existence to get a better life.

I've seen people move from the drive thru window to management positions in as little as a few months.

Then I've also see the same frowning face half-assedly slinging crumpled up food bags into car windows day in, day out, for years on end.

I've had shitty jobs. I spent 4 years digging holes for sign posts and busting concrete. That was a hard job.

Then i spent 5 years detailing cars at a dealership.

Never did i expect a raise as incentive to work harder; I worked my ass off and demonstrated my value as an employee to the company I worked for. I moved up and up and up and made more and more and more and I'm still working my way up. Now I'm getting paid to repair cars as an apprentice, and they will be paying for my certification tests and classes.

My overall point?

There ARE fucking jobs out there, you just have to not be a lazy, frowny faced turd. Go grab a shovel and show a landscape company how hard you're willing to work to earn money. Maybe you'll find yourself sitting in a nice, warm plow truck come winter while some other kid is out there shoveling instead of you. Maybe eventually, like my friend Travis, the owner will put you in charge of your own small crew as he wants to expand his business and needs someone he can rely on.

Moral of the story: Hard work should come before high pay, not the other way around.

Vausch:

You sound like the people at the tea party rallies near my home with those last few paragraphs there. Here's the thing, though, do you think people really LIKE living on welfare?

I grew up a mile outside of Detroit. When I was little, we would regularly get government cheese and clothes from my mom's friends whose kids had grown out of them. She was a night manager at a submarine shop, she quit after being robbed at gunpoint and worked in a factory for a while. Even other the other kids would make fun of me for being poor, for not having a Triple Fat Goose coat, or clothing from MFG- or whatever else there was back in the late 1980s. But their parents didn't have the money for that stuff either, my parents were just tighter with theirs. Eventually they were able to get better jobs and get me out of there in the early 90s when things really started getting bad. We didn't go far, and last year I moved back close to the old hood- a slightly nicer area- 4 miles outside Detroit. Bought a house here.

I don't have a college degree, I didn't come from any sort of privilege, my father was a first generation immigrant and nobody had a family business, nobody ever got me a job. And yet, I did alright because above all else I made it a point to try and stay employed, even if I hated the job, I'd come in and do it well and not half ass it. That's what got me where I am- not a piece of paper stating I'm edumuhkated and student loans. Remember, some people are just going to be losers and there's no helping them.

I did read the rest of your post; but to keep it short I'm just responding to one more thing. Do people like being on welfare? If you notice, people don't like anything. They're miserable no matter what. I can't say people like it, but people around here sure do accept it. We have the highest unemployment in the whole country in my area, I see it all the time. Sometimes people come over my house and they're like damn, how you get all dis? Work. I don't lecture people, it's a waste of time. Plus they don't wanna hear it, they'd rather be jealous and dream about how they're going to get their big break some day and show me up- and never actually take one step to do any of it. It's easier to live in a fantasy world I guess.

I also really wanted to share this article with you from CBS 60 minutes; LA times called it a "hatchet job," "misleading" and groups like Media Matters called it "denounced report." That just means this article got their attention. It especially caused the shit storm it did, because it didn't come from a source they could pawn off as right wing, as people often do, and went to great lengths to find fault with it. Just read it, especially about the part about those people in one county in Kentucky and how many of them are on disability.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-18560_162-57606233/disability-usa/

Okay, heartfelt rant incoming.

Here's the thing: I'm one of the people who didn't have to "pay their dues" because I was lucky enough that my parents - after working hard, mind - had enough income to send me and my brother to university.

I am now a physician earning a sizeable income of my own, I recently bought an apartment (obviously on loans, but still, without enough income you wouldn't even get those loans) and I have a reasonably rich future ahead of me (upper middle class, I'd say, unless something goes horribly wrong; probably not upper class, though).

Now. Why is that? Was I just smarter than other kids in my class? Was I just a harder worker that I got these opportunities? Am I just that friggin' awesome? No, of course not. I had opportunities that a lot of other people never got. I'm reasonably clever, I'd say, but I'm no genius and I'm obviously not a hard enough worker that I spend my free time doing a second job. Why is it that others should have to, say, go to university and do a job and get loans to get the same opportunities that I got? Because of who my parents were? Because of what my father and mother managed to achieve in terms of social mobility and income?

That's nice for them and all, but it has little relevance for what I did, for what I had to do to get where I currently am and where I will hopefully be in a few years. Give a poor kid the same opportunities and they wouldn't have that bad a chance of achieving around the same level.

So why in the name of fuck are some of you parading around your humble beginnings and the improvements you managed to scrape from that as something positive? Oh, yes, it honours you and speaks to your dedication and whatnot, but guess what? With that same amount of work and a different starting place, you could've been rich by now. Why would you accept all the work you put in being rewarded as it was as just?

Hell, remember I'm just middle class, I started out fortunate but not with an incredibly massive advantage. Now imagine what a rich kid with connections to industry and the very best of universities and schools could've accomplished with the same or less amount of work.

Why would you celebrate a system that exploits you and others like you? What did they - the big folks - do to your views, how did they affect them so, that you celebrate a lack of equality of opportunity?!

I don't understand. But at least I can say what I said before: The best - or worst, depending on the perspective - thing that the various special interest groups managed to do, was to get their followers to fight against their own interests.

xDarc:
I also really wanted to share this article with you from CBS 60 minutes; LA times called it a "hatched job," "misleading" and groups like Media Matters called it "denounced report." That just means this article got their attention. It especially caused the shit storm it did, because it didn't come from a source they could pawn off as right wing, as people often do, and went to great lengths to find fault with it. Just read it, especially about the part about those people in one county in Kentucky and how many of them are on disability.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-18560_162-57606233/disability-usa/

That is an interesting article, especially all the parts about how little job prospects there are that people like you and Super Not Cosmo and farson and MichiganMuscle keep drolling on and on and on about how they exist in spades and no one has any excuse whatsoever other than sheer laziness not to find one that not only pays, but pays well enough not to be poor, and that people just need to be willing to put in the work to find them.

The Social Security Administration, which runs the disability program says the explosive surge is due to aging baby boomers and the lingering effects of a bad economy.

Jessica White: I was hired at the end of 2008 and business was booming because the economy was so bad. We had a lot of people who -- their unemployment ran out and this was the next step.

Jenna Fliszar: If you're unable to find a job, and you have any type of physical issue, then it really becomes a last ditch effort because the job market is so bad.

Sen. Coburn says disability payments are now propping up the economy in some of the poorest regions in the country.

For Marilyn Zahm, the disability judge from Buffalo, the high demand for it is a measure of the low prospects that still exist for millions of Americans.

Marilyn Zahm: People run out of unemployment insurance. They are not going to die silently. They are going to look for another source of income. It is not unusual for people, especially people over 40, to have some sort of an ailment or impairment. So they will file for disability benefits based upon that. For many of these people, the plant closed. There are no jobs in their communities. What are people supposed to do?

Steve Kroft (to Coburn): Some of these people are desperate people.

Tom Coburn: Absolutely desperate. I agree. But what you're really describing is our economy and the consequences of it. And we're using a system that wasn't meant for that, because we don't have a system over there to help them. Which means we're not addressing the other concerns in our society. And that's a debate Congress ought to have.

So please, do keep going on about how easy it is for people to find good paying jobs, simply because you were some of the lucky few who found one while ignoring the millions of others who didn't. Keep ignoring the fact that thousands upon thousands of people show up for a job fair that offers merely tens to hundreds of jobs at most, and just keep telling yourself that those thousands of unlucky ones who didn't get any of the job openings that they simply didn't try as hard as the lucky few among them who did.

Just realize that your own personal success story doesn't prove anything, nor justifies your desire to see other people treated like shit simply because they weren't as lucky as you were. No one cares if you "paid your due to get your's" it doesn't validate your mentality of "I got mine, so fuck everyone else who didn't, it's their own damn fault and no one owes them a damn thing" because the truth is, most of the people who are there aren't there because they're lazy and unmotivated, but because society has specifically deemed that that's where a large number of people belong.

If we are going to create a society were a large number of people need to be poor by necessity, society does, in fact, owe them for having to fill that necessary role, and it's sad how many people have so little regard for human life and dignity and such a small grip on reality as to disagree that it does.

People worked long and hard during the turn of the century and through the Great Depression to earn workers a decent standard of living, but as soon as they got it and all those people who actually put in the effort to earn that standard of living for the next generation retired and/or died away, the next generation that enjoyed the privileges of their efforts immediately began to tear it all down again, and it would be nothing short of sweet irony if they did the same to you that they've already done to millions of others and you can truly see what damage the ideals you are supporting have done first hand.

Skeleon:
Le Snip!

Ah, here we go! I knew this post was coming. Wasn't sure from who but I knew as sure as I knew the sun was going to rise tomorrow that it was going to show up.

All those people flipping burgers aren't where they are at because of anything they did to put themselves there like not study hard or not apply themselves. Nope, they exist as they do because they didn't have the advantages that others have. My god, I really need to "check my privilege" I guess. After all, I could have been born a poor Sherpa boy with a lazy eye and an overbite and had that been the case I'd surely be knife fighting with unfortunate bums born to similar poor beginnings in an alley right now over dead rats regardless of how much effort I put towards bettering myself.

Of course what we have isn't just a rant crapping all over personal responsibility but also takes a minute to crap all over those who have the sheer audacity to be born to a family of any sort of means. The politics of envy at it's finest. We shouldn't celebrate our accomplishments but instead should look at the accomplishments of others who are more successful with jealousy and spite because life is just soooooo unfair and people don't become successful through hard work and effort but rather by sheer stupid luck.

If I went through life with this mindset I'd be sitting around pissed off in some dead end job right now and in my mind I'd obviously be there because I just didn't have the advantages those evil rich people have and I certainly wouldn't be there because I was too drunk to attend any of my college courses. Nope I would have dismissed that MY actions had the first thing to do with any of this and deep down I'd know that if only I had been born with more advantages I would likely be captain of my own spaceship instead of operating a deep fryer.

@Super_Not_Cosmo
You did read the part about putting in the same amount of work, right, achieving different outcomes for similar effort? So don't give me the "regardless of how much effort I put towards bettering myself"-crap. If you're going to strawman, be more subtle about it and not quite so pathetically obvious.
This is not a rant about personal responsibility or lack thereof, it's about work and effort paying off unfairly based on your starting location (and other circumstances that you had no influence on, by the way).
Odd that you'd say that about going through life with that mindset. I'm not in a dead end job right now despite having it.
But if I understand your position right, then according to you that must simply be because I'm just intrinsically that much more awesome, I suppose.
And, yes, that's a joke. Not an actual strawman, since I don't mean it to be an argument. I think it's nonsense, actually.

Super Not Cosmo:

All those people flipping burgers aren't where they are at because of anything they did to put themselves there like not study hard or not apply themselves. Nope, they exist as they do because they didn't have the advantages that others have. My god, I really need to "check my privilege" I guess. After all, I could have been born a poor Sherpa boy with a lazy eye and an overbite and had that been the case I'd surely be knife fighting with unfortunate bums born to similar poor beginnings in an alley right now over dead rats regardless of how much effort I put towards bettering myself.

Yeah... Except that's not what he's saying. His point is that it is inherently unfair that some people can go to University or get a good job straight out of high school because their parents have the money or contacts to set them up while others have to bust their ass "flipping burgers" for years on end just so they can get a chance at maybe applying for university.

In any modern nation it should not be where and to who you are born that matters in terms of your potential for a good career. Everyone should have at least the chance to access higher education without having to put in several times the amount of effort that others do, just because their parents were poor and uneducated.

Super Not Cosmo:

Of course what we have isn't just a rant crapping all over personal responsibility but also takes a minute to crap all over those who have the sheer audacity to be born to a family of any sort of means. The politics of envy at it's finest. We shouldn't celebrate our accomplishments but instead should look at the accomplishments of others who are more successful with jealousy and spite because life is just soooooo unfair and people don't become successful through hard work and effort but rather by sheer stupid luck.

Dude, stop with the victimization. It isn't an attack on people who are rich or educated, it is an attack on the system that enables these people to have it a lot easier when it comes to making a good career for themselves. Especially when many without means are pretty much unable to ever rise out of relative poverty due to the same system denying them chances to increase their level of education.

Super Not Cosmo:

If I went through life with this mindset I'd be sitting around pissed off in some dead end job right now and in my mind I'd obviously be there because I just didn't have the advantages those evil rich people have and I certainly wouldn't be there because I was too drunk to attend any of my college courses. Nope I would have dismissed that MY actions had the first thing to do with any of this and deep down I'd know that if only I had been born with more advantages I would likely be captain of my own spaceship instead of operating a deep fryer.

Who your parents are, where they live and what jobs and education they have is something that's completely out of your control and yet it is one of the strongest predictors of your future educational and economical trajectory. Especially in countries with poor welfare and social security, which in turn are predictors for poor social mobility. Personal choices certainly matter, but only to a certain degree. As the social sciences will overwhelmingly tell you, the biggest impact on your ability to make a good career for yourself will come from where you are born and to what parents.

We are arguing against the inherent injustice in that and the need for society to level the playing field to give more people more chances to make a good career for themselves. It would reflect well on you if you would stop with the strawmanning and ridiculing and instead actually engage with the actual arguments we are making.

Gethsemani:
Yeah... Except that's not what he's saying. His point is that it is inherently unfair that some people can go to University or get a good job straight out of high school because their parents have the money or contacts to set them up while others have to bust their ass "flipping burgers" for years on end just so they can get a chance at maybe applying for university.

Except those opportunities already exist. There are grants and scholarships and all sorts of things in place so that those people who are less fortunate can have access to education. My wife grew up dirt poor on a fucking Indian reservation and when she went to college we actually made a couple thousand dollars every semester thanks to all the various grants and scholarships and other assorted financial aid she qualified for. My in-laws couldn't afford to give her cab money, never mind tuition money and yet she busted her ass in high school and applied herself and as a result she pretty much got paid to attend college.

Being born poor is no excuse as to why you can't make something of yourself. There are plenty of people out there that came from a shitty start and became crazy successful. Anyone who applies themselves in high school and gets good grades can very likely go to college straight out of high school on someone else's dime. Hell, even if they simply get passable grades and do enough to get by there are still plenty of financial aid options available that any halfway competent financial aid counselor could find in order to send them to school on the cheap, if not free.

Super Not Cosmo:
My god, I really need to "check my privilege" I guess.

I find more often than not, those that use that term in quotes really are the ones that need it the most.

Super Not Cosmo:

Gethsemani:
Yeah... Except that's not what he's saying. His point is that it is inherently unfair that some people can go to University or get a good job straight out of high school because their parents have the money or contacts to set them up while others have to bust their ass "flipping burgers" for years on end just so they can get a chance at maybe applying for university.

Except those opportunities already exist. There are grants and scholarships and all sorts of things in place so that those people who are less fortunate can have access to education. My wife grew up dirt poor on a fucking Indian reservation and when she went to college we actually made a couple thousand dollars every semester thanks to all the various grants and scholarships and other assorted financial aid she qualified for. My in-laws couldn't afford to give her cab money, never mind tuition money and yet she busted her ass in high school and applied herself and as a result she pretty much got paid to attend college.

Being born poor is no excuse as to why you can't make something of yourself. There are plenty of people out there that came from a shitty start and became crazy successful. Anyone who applies themselves in high school and gets good grades can very likely go to college straight out of high school on someone else's dime. Hell, even if they simply get passable grades and do enough to get by there are still plenty of financial aid options available that any halfway competent financial aid counselor could find in order to send them to school on the cheap, if not free.

Two things you're missing here, numerous people have pointed this out already in various fashions but here's my take.

Ok, so if you're born really poor but work really hard you can get scholarships to attend university, and even make money there through financial aid! Great! Now what happens when EVERYONE attending the university there works just as hard. Now who get's all that financial aid? Everyone? No, in fact everyones working precisely as hard as each other, but still the same number of people are getting all that financial aid. Obviously in a realistic uni, 100% of the students aren't working to 100% of their capacity. But you can bet your arse your wife was far from the only person there putting the work in for that money.

The fact that your wife got enough financial aid to make a PROFIT there means that there was probably someone else attending that uni who was working just as hard as your wife yet DIDN'T get that money.

Now how the fuck is that fair?

EDIT: Don't get me wrong here i'm not saying universities should give scholarships to everyone or whatnot. I'm just pointing out that just because there are opportunities around, doesn't mean everyone who works for them will get them.

The other thing you're missing is the fact that had your wife been born to rich parents instead of poor parents, all that hard work she put in would have got her far further than she is now. She'd be far further and far richer even if she worked LESS than she does now. Again, how the fuck is that fair?

Shpongled:
Again, how the fuck is that fair?

See, the reason Not-Cosmo's responses keep coming back the way they do is that you keep asking him questions where, in the fullness of time, he'll just return with an answer laden with his personal views that you're trying to get him to think outside of for a moment instead of saying things that might grit your teeth. He honestly believes that everything he did in life is hunky-dory and that other people just have to put the nose to the grindstone even though they're down to their eyebrows by now. The man does not feel bad for the other guy, and so you cannot reach him. Neither can you warn him of any possible crashing down of the walls around his ears, should any be coming, as a result of the way the world is. Put simply, you can't talk minimum wage to a guy who just hasn't been there.

Shpongled:
Again, how the fuck is that fair?

"Fair" is a place where they judge pigs. Better to learn and accept that sooner rather than later.

FalloutJack:
Put simply, you can't talk minimum wage to a guy who just hasn't been there.

Except I have worked for minimum wage, for multiple years of my adult life in fact. I jockeyed a register at a video store while sobering up from my brief time spent in college. I finally got tired of working a dead end job so I went and found ways to improve my station in life. What I didn't do was sit around feeling sorry for myself and bemoaning the unfairness in the world around me. The results speak for their self.

FalloutJack:

Shpongled:
Again, how the fuck is that fair?

See, the reason Not-Cosmo's responses keep coming back the way they do is that you keep asking him questions where, in the fullness of time, he'll just return with an answer laden with his personal views that you're trying to get him to think outside of for a moment instead of saying things that might grit your teeth. He honestly believes that everything he did in life is hunky-dory and that other people just have to put the nose to the grindstone even though they're down to their eyebrows by now. The man does not feel bad for the other guy, and so you cannot reach him. Neither can you warn him of any possible crashing down of the walls around his ears, should any be coming, as a result of the way the world is. Put simply, you can't talk minimum wage to a guy who just hasn't been there.

I see it less as a 'he hasn't been there' situation, more of a 'I did it so anyone can do it' blind (willfull?) ignorance situation. Why examine our own advantages and accept that there is a large degree of things outside our area of control that affect how we do in life? Thats uncomfortable and scary.

No no, better to just humble brag about how we pulled ourselves up by our own bootstraps, say that living on a minimum wage is perfectly doable, and berate those that didn't 'make it' as lazy mooches.

Super Not Cosmo:
Poit

I highly doubt that. Your reactions tell a different tale. The phrase "Let them eat cake" comes to mind. I'm sorry, but I cannot take your statement at face value. 'Tis dubious and questionable, given your lack of concern for the wellbeing of others.

Super Not Cosmo:

Shpongled:
Again, how the fuck is that fair?

"Fair" is a place where they judge pigs. Better to learn and accept that sooner rather than later.

That sort of pisses on your bootstrappy dogma, doesn't it?

Reginald:

Super Not Cosmo:

Shpongled:
Again, how the fuck is that fair?

"Fair" is a place where they judge pigs. Better to learn and accept that sooner rather than later.

That sort of pisses on your bootstrappy dogma, doesn't it?

Not at all. Fairness is something most people would be best to stop concerning themselves with around the time they learn to color inside the lines. It doesn't take any kind of genius to look around and tell you the world isn't a "fair" place. It's not and that's the beginning and end of it.

Improving your lot in life has fuck all to do with fairness. I have a few friends and even more people that I consider acquaintances that grew up in crazy rich families. Many of these guys spent their post high school years getting just as shit faced as me, if not more. But unlike me they didn't end up working at Blockbuster because of their actions. Instead they had parents that were willing to pay for them to go back to school after they flunked out or had parents that pulled strings and got them into crazy high paying jobs without needing a degree. Is that "fair"? No, but it is the reality of things.

When the time came that I decided I wanted to make changes in my life I didn't dwell on how easy many of my friends had it and bitch about how unfair it was that they had an easier time of things than I did. I just did what I had to do to improve myself. How easy or hard a path you have to take to better yourself is irrelevant. The reality is that for the vast majority of us the only person out there that can change our lot in life is our selves. You can either be pissed that you have to work harder to improve yourself than the guy that came before you or you can just worry about improving yourself and do what's needed knowing some might have it easier and some might have it harder but none of that changes what YOU are going to need to do.

Super Not Cosmo:

The reality is that for the vast majority of us the only person out there that can change our lot in life is our selves. You can either be pissed that you have to work harder to improve yourself than the guy that came before you or you can just worry about improving yourself and do what's needed knowing some might have it easier and some might have it harder but none of that changes what YOU are going to need to do.

No, the reality is that in a society like the USA with poor social security and welfare you rarely can do much to improve your lot in life and what you can do is heavily influenced by luck. The state can do a whole lot however to make it easier for you to improve your lot by providing social security and welfare that enables people to do positive social trips.

We are not saying that a personal investment and effort into improving your life shouldn't be needed, we are saying that when someone decides to undertake such an attempt there should be social institutions in place to make it easier. Because today, in the USA, the biggest predictor of future success is still who your parents are and where they live, not how hard you are ready to work to reach success.

This isn't just an equality issue, it is an issue of social progress. Because for every person that makes an attempt and fail, society is potentially missing out on a great company idea, invention or something else that might have made a great difference. Sweden's dedication to making social advancement available to everyone is what has enabled a population of 9 million to churn out a disproportionately large number of successful athletes, businessmen, inventors and media stars.

Super Not Cosmo:
-snip-

So because the system isn't fair, you think we should just accept that and not try to change the system? Man, what a bleak, defeatist attitude. Just because life isn't inherently fair doesn't mean we shouldn't strive to make things as equitable as possible.

Also going to point out that the part Gethsemani quoted is a false dichotomy.

xDarc:

snip

The problem is that many menial jobs open a very limited amount of doors. This means that in order to evolve past it you need to excel at what you do. To take burger flippers as an example. No amount of years of experience are gonna open doors in managing positions anywhere outside said firm/sector. Or any job that isn't menial and has a set of specific required skills. (I don't think any consultancy firm, for example, will even look past the CV of someone without a university degree who flipped burgers for whatever amount of years). So at the end what you can only hope for is a slightly better paid crappy job or evolving inside said company. But evolving inside the company is not that easy, not only because there are more people at the top than the bottom (which means not everyone can be promoted, regardless of how good everyone is) but they're also in competition with people without experience but have degrees. So to evolve you need to better than the others and/or be lucky. And that's the big problem with the whole "you just gotta try harder" position. Because imagine if everyone tried harder, what than? They won't all get a better job, that simply won't happen. There will always be people who get stuck. All it would do is increase the amount of efforts required to evolve.

You'll always have losers (and not as in "they're deadbeat people who don't wanna work hard" but as in "people who are stuck"). And the question than is: should we allow people who can't make it to live like shit or accept the fact it is impossible for everyone to "make it" and thus be "nice" for those who don't.

generals3:

xDarc:

snip

The problem is that many menial jobs open a very limited amount of doors. This means that in order to evolve past it you need to excel at what you do. To take burger flippers as an example. No amount of years of experience are gonna open doors in managing positions anywhere outside said firm/sector. Or any job that isn't menial and has a set of specific required skills. (I don't think any consultancy firm, for example, will even look past the CV of someone without a university degree who flipped burgers for whatever amount of years). So at the end what you can only hope for is a slightly better paid crappy job or evolving inside said company. But evolving inside the company is not that easy, not only because there are more people at the top than the bottom (which means not everyone can be promoted, regardless of how good everyone is) but they're also in competition with people without experience but have degrees. So to evolve you need to better than the others and/or be lucky. And that's the big problem with the whole "you just gotta try harder" position. Because imagine if everyone tried harder, what than? They won't all get a better job, that simply won't happen. There will always be people who get stuck. All it would do is increase the amount of efforts required to evolve.

You'll always have losers (and not as in "they're deadbeat people who don't wanna work hard" but as in "people who are stuck"). And the question than is: should we allow people who can't make it to live like shit or accept the fact it is impossible for everyone to "make it" and thus be "nice" for those who don't.

Humans are often complacent if they are comfortable where they are and most of those working those jobs are temporary anyway. It's actually rare to find someone that works year after year in a minimum wage job, the faces change quickly.

The doors that are open for advancement are camouflaged in most cases.

The boss or the their representative can go to the person in question where it will be first advertised as an opportunity additional responsibility without pay to match. You can always ask for additional opportunities as the training wheels come off and you don't have to be supervised every second of the day. Unfortunately there is a trap with the responsibilities without pay, for the manager they don't want to pay someone for something they can't do and why work harder without pay?

It would require a leap of faith on one parties behalf for this arrangement to work. Otherwise you can count on a wage increase as time accrues.

If you alone take the leap of faith, after one month ask if you are doing a good job with it. If you receive a positive answer, immediately start sending out resumes and add that bullet to your resume.

generals3:
And the question than is: should we allow people who can't make it to live like shit or accept the fact it is impossible for everyone to "make it" and thus be "nice" for those who don't.

You call it a CV. From the UK? There is evidence that raising the minimum wage in that country has actually hurt young people the most; something like half of the 2 million unemployed there are 16-24. The higher the minimum wage, the more productive the avareage worker will need to be, and the less jobs you will find.

In the US, only around 6% of total hourly workers are actually at or below the minimum wage. It's not like half the country works for minimum wage; more like they just don't work. Studies have shown that recession occurs when minimum wage approaches 45%-50% of the median average hourly rate. Right now in the US, the average hourly rate is around $20/hr ($24 according to BLS) That means if minimum wage goes much higher than $10 an hour, expect to see jobs slashed.

Even if you gave each of the 72,000,000 hourly workers in the US an extra $7 an hour, and they spent every dime of it, that's a trillion dollars. A lot right? It's 6% of the US 16.6 trillion dollar economy. How are we supposed to double the minimum wage and give everyone a sizable raise when it's not going to pay for itself?

That's right, take it from someone else, take it from the corporations, that's the answer for everything. As long as the banking cartels are running things- you can raise the minimum wage to a $15 dollars an hour, they're just going to replace people with machines built in some 3rd world country. Even fewer people will be employed.

And forget about the small business owner, because it will reach a point where workers can't be productive enough to keep the bills paid, when they're paid more than their output is worth. The monopoly will be further consolidated into the hands of the mega corporations. People think it's tough out there now, just wait.

xDarc:

generals3:
And the question than is: should we allow people who can't make it to live like shit or accept the fact it is impossible for everyone to "make it" and thus be "nice" for those who don't.

You call it a CV. From the UK? There is evidence that raising the minimum wage in that country has actually hurt young people the most; something like half of the 2 million unemployed there are 16-24. The higher the minimum wage, the more productive the avareage worker will need to be, and the less jobs you will find.

In the US, only around 6% of total hourly workers are actually at or below the minimum wage. It's not like half the country works for minimum wage; more like they just don't work. Studies have shown that recession occurs when minimum wage approaches 45%-50% of the median average hourly rate. Right now in the US, the average hourly rate is around $20/hr ($24 according to BLS) That means if minimum wage goes much higher than $10 an hour, expect to see jobs slashed.

Even if you gave each of the 72,000,000 hourly workers in the US an extra $7 an hour, and they spent every dime of it, that's a trillion dollars. A lot right? It's 6% of the US 16.6 trillion dollar economy. How are we supposed to double the minimum wage and give everyone a sizable raise when it's not going to pay for itself?

That's right, take it from someone else, take it from the corporations, that's the answer for everything. As long as the banking cartels are running things- you can raise the minimum wage to a $15 dollars an hour, they're just going to replace people with machines built in some 3rd world country. Even fewer people will be employed.

And forget about the small business owner, because it will reach a point where workers can't be productive enough to keep the bills paid, when they're paid more than their output is worth. The monopoly will be further consolidated into the hands of the mega corporations. People think it's tough out there now, just wait.

It doesn't even have to be 7 dollars an hour more. Even 3 or 4 would be a huge leap for many.

Where will they get the money? Profits. Prices may have to be raised in tandem with a minimum wage increase, but if a large corporation that rakes in billions a year is willing to take a hit to profits I'm pretty sure they could easily survive. "Oh no, Wal-Mart only made 13 billion in profits instead of 18 billion this year! How will they ever survive?"

That also seems to assume everybody gets a raise there. I'm sure if a person is already making 40 dollars an hour they won't complain that someone starting gets 12 or 15.

I was an assistant manager of a small business. The owner tried to pay people as well as she could and kept it above minimum wage. The answer to a wage increase was always "Raise prices appropriately, be willing to take a temporary hit to profits, and if need be speak to other workers about lowering hours and possible temporary layoffs until things were sorted out". It can apply to most any business.

Vausch:

I feel this is going train of thought at this point but I just wanted to bring up the discussion since it hasn't been brought up yet as far as I've seen.

I'm troubled by "bartenders with bachelors" issues in our society.

I am also troubled that a young man thanked Obama for his healthcare initiative as he had a burger flipping job and needs benefits and I'm thinking: "You are very young. What is to motivate you to become something more? I don't mean a doctorate, but, say, welding or plumbing? Where are those people going to come from if all your needs can be satisfied with an entry level job meant for high school kids?" There are well paid managers in the McDonald's system but this kid wasn't talking about those positions. They have gone the extra mile as he had not (yet).

I worry it is becoming too hard to really do well in this society, and too easy to just let others do the work and take the risks.

Gorfias:

I am also troubled that a young man thanked Obama for his healthcare initiative as he had a burger flipping job and needs benefits and I'm thinking: "You are very young. What is to motivate you to become something more?

Because you want to.

If you have job security in that you don't need to worry about affording to eat, being made homeless or bankrupt by medical bills. Not needing to have a second job people can go to night classes in subjects that interest them

Gorfias:

I am also troubled that a young man thanked Obama for his healthcare initiative as he had a burger flipping job and needs benefits and I'm thinking: "You are very young. What is to motivate you to become something more? I don't mean a doctorate, but, say, welding or plumbing? Where are those people going to come from if all your needs can be satisfied with an entry level job meant for high school kids?" There are well paid managers in the McDonald's system but this kid wasn't talking about those positions. They have gone the extra mile as he had not (yet).

I worry it is becoming too hard to really do well in this society, and too easy to just let others do the work and take the risks.

I have to ask: who managed to make you believe poor people only care about survival? Because your question is as absurd as asking why a Major would want to become a Colonel or a middle manager would want to be promoted to upper management.

xDarc:

You call it a CV. From the UK? There is evidence that raising the minimum wage in that country has actually hurt young people the most; something like half of the 2 million unemployed there are 16-24. The higher the minimum wage, the more productive the avareage worker will need to be, and the less jobs you will find.

Actually no i'm not from the UK. I'm from Belgium.
It is true that the higher the minimum wage the higher the productivity needs to be. But, by economic theory the productivity needs to be on par with the costs and that's it (well, slightly higher actually as to cover the costs of those who do not produce tangible wealth like managers). However the problem nowadays is that it is expected to be much much higher in order to be able to give absurd salaries to the top tier and shareholders. The point of a minimum wage is to "fix" that to a certain extend. Now off course in a globalized world where many countries exploit the lower classes the costs can be quite big. but the solution is not to abandon the concept but rather to spread it.

In the US, only around 6% of total hourly workers are actually at or below the minimum wage. It's not like half the country works for minimum wage; more like they just don't work. Studies have shown that recession occurs when minimum wage approaches 45%-50% of the median average hourly rate. Right now in the US, the average hourly rate is around $20/hr ($24 according to BLS) That means if minimum wage goes much higher than $10 an hour, expect to see jobs slashed.

I do have to ask, how does a high minimum wage cause a recession by itself? And which recession has been caused by it?

Even if you gave each of the 72,000,000 hourly workers in the US an extra $7 an hour, and they spent every dime of it, that's a trillion dollars. A lot right? It's 6% of the US 16.6 trillion dollar economy. How are we supposed to double the minimum wage and give everyone a sizable raise when it's not going to pay for itself?

I don't like to make very big changes at once. I believe one has to be cautious when implementing such policies exactly because unpredictable things can occur as a consequence. Therefor I wouldn't go as far as asking for a 7$ extra per hour. Maybe start with 1-2$ than the year after an other 1-2$. For those on minimum wage this is already a significant improvement.

That's right, take it from someone else, take it from the corporations, that's the answer for everything. As long as the banking cartels are running things- you can raise the minimum wage to a $15 dollars an hour, they're just going to replace people with machines built in some 3rd world country. Even fewer people will be employed.

The issue here lies with how few countries are willing to protect their working class. And that obviously needs to change. But i think it will change by itself. Once china was the best place to produce clothes and other items like that. Nowadays due to social forces and increasing wages even China outsources these things to countries like Bangladesh. And soon they'll probably get better wages too, etc. However if we, those who are on that aspect on the front, were to show the bad example we might slow down this process. The best way is to show these people they deserve better and hope they pressure their authorities to change things. This will also help leveling the playing field.

Semes:

Because you want to.

I worry that if I only did what "I want to" I would be far less productive, and our society far less prosperous.

generals3:

I have to ask: who managed to make you believe poor people only care about survival? Because your question is as absurd as asking why a Major would want to become a Colonel or a middle manager would want to be promoted to upper management.

Of course there are ambitious people. But, like me, there are lazy people too. There are expectations of me, so, I keep doing things I'd just as soon not do. If government could make life easy, I'm certain there are many things I have done that, in that case, I really would bother. The result would be a much poorer society.

Gorfias:

I worry that if I only did what "I want to" I would be far less productive, and our society far less prosperous.

You possibly would but I doubt that society as a whole would be less prosperous, if anything it would be more prosperous.

Gorfias:

Of course there are ambitious people. But, like me, there are lazy people too. There are expectations of me, so, I keep doing things I'd just as soon not do. If government could make life easy, I'm certain there are many things I have done that, in that case, I really would bother. The result would be a much poorer society.

Its more a case of allowing more people to have opportunities. Everyone cannot do every job. That is the simple fact of it, there are many jobs I know I cant preform and don't have aspirations to do so. To say that people are "lazy" seems that you approve of many people (6.8 million in the US) working a second job.

How can you claim it would be a poorer society? By what metric are you measuring this? Allowing a family to live comfortable on 1 payslip is a poor society? People having more time off to raise their kids is a danger to society?

Gorfias:
Of course there are ambitious people. But, like me, there are lazy people too. There are expectations of me, so, I keep doing things I'd just as soon not do. If government could make life easy, I'm certain there are many things I have done that, in that case, I really would bother. The result would be a much poorer society.

There are a number of people who inherit a bunch of wealth and needn't lift a finger for the rest of their lives. For some reason a bunch of 'em choose to go and make (or at least get) more wealth anyway. It only looks like some people only care about subsistence because that's what anyone in any situation needs to have handled first. It is an overriding concern, not the only one. Once handled, people then look to improve other things about their lives.

Semes:

Its more a case of allowing more people to have opportunities. ... To say that people are "lazy" seems that you approve of many people (6.8 million in the US) working a second job.

How can you claim it would be a poorer society? By what metric are you measuring this? Allowing a family to live comfortable on 1 payslip is a poor society? People having more time off to raise their kids is a danger to society?

You state there are 6.8 million people with a 2nd job. If government could make their lives easier, can we agree most would no longer work that 2nd job? We lose the wealth created by those people working that 2nd job.

Personally, I had a job. I knew it to be unsecure and went, at my own expense, through a technical certification course. Had government assured me an easy life, I wouldn't have bothered (maybe). Those who profit by my attending the course wouldn't have made money. My failure to enter a field in demand would have kept the cost of hiring someone for that field that much higher. (increase supply, equal demand, price goes down).

Seanchaidh:

There are a number of people who inherit a bunch of wealth and needn't lift a finger for the rest of their lives. For some reason a bunch of 'em choose to go and make (or at least get) more wealth anyway. It only looks like some people only care about subsistence because that's what anyone in any situation needs to have handled first. It is an overriding concern, not the only one. Once handled, people then look to improve other things about their lives.

Yes, there are ambitious people out there. I think too many people out there are like me though. We get out of bed and face the day because we have to do so. I tell myself if I ever hit the lottery, I'll still work. But I worry, in reality, I'd do a lot more relaxing.

It comes down to, am unusually lazy, or the norm?

Yes, for some, once subsistence is obtanied, they look for more (Maslow's hierarchy) but not all do. If government helps you out on some rungs of the economic latter, will too many people not bother climbing further? I think so.

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