white guilt, give me a break

 Pages PREV 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 NEXT
 

Helmholtz Watson:
I see that you're Australian, so perhaps you guys have a different view of what is considered "White". However here in the US, Slavic/East-European people are just as White as Germanic people. In fact, despite our previous Cold War with Russia, I've never heard anybody accuse Russians, or Latvians, Estonians, or any other East Europeans as not being considered "White People".

I suppose it depends on the individual racist. Hell, some racists distinguish between 'Germanic' northern peoples and 'Latin' southern people. If I remember right some American racists believed that Irish did not count as white.

Care to back up the clam that all of Europe agreed with this line of thinking? Furthermore, even if it is the case, I fail to see how the opinions of the Estonian or Latvian people, who lived during the colonization of Africa, had serious effects on the way that African people were treated given the fact that Estonia and Latvia had no say in what countries like England or France did.
As for its relevance, it is completely relevant to point out an ignorant assumption that somehow the actions of Western Europe at the time, are representative of the actions of all of Europe. As it stands now, such a comment is nothing more that an ugly example of collective guilt.

Did I say ALL Europeans thought or acted this way? I did not, only that it was a common theme in western thought at the time. In any case, look where you have to go for examples. Finland, Estonia? In addition to their dubious grouping with Europe, they were minor countries during the the time period, incapable of colonization even if they wanted to. So I don't believe they are especially strong counter arguments. They are not representative of European thought or practice.

The problem arises from the fact that each minority group, at least in America, sees themselves as being part of some "team". Like they are all members of a particular group that is separate from, and often add odds with, the other groups. For example, a black man sees himself and all other black people being on the "black team", a group that is separate from all those who are not black. There is also an "us vs them" mentality that grows out of this.

That logic is horribly flawed. Having the same skin color as someone doesn't put you on a separate "team" with them. Crimes against them are not crimes against your "team" and by extension you. Also, crimes committed by them are not crimes committed by your "team" and therefore your responsibility.

I would go as far as to say that close family ties don't even put you own the same "team". With few exceptions, crimes committed against you father are crimes committed against him. He has the ability to seek legal restitution for them, you do not. You certainly don't have the right to take legal action on behalf of your 7th cousin, or great-great-great-great-grandfather.

Helmholtz Watson:
"White" colonizations? Really? Are you sure you don't mean specific countries like the major players I listed above or do care to point out at what point of time during the Scramble for Africa that Switzerland or Finland also controlled a major portion of African land?

Nah, I mean white. Regardless of which European countries it was it still created a ego-political landscape of subjugation in which white people were in control. When we think of history we often lack an objective point of view, we tend to relate to and propagate those that look like us or is those closest to our ancestors, we all do it, it's a pack mentality.

I think that what some people call 'white guilt' is in fact a realization that those types of myths and mentalities we've created about ourselves and understand that those mentalities propagate continual subjugation.

cthulhuspawn82:
The problem arises from the fact that each minority group, at least in America, sees themselves as being part of some "team". Like they are all members of a particular group that is separate from, and often add odds with, the other groups. For example, a black man sees himself and all other black people being on the "black team", a group that is separate from all those who are not black. There is also an "us vs them" mentality that grows out of this.

That logic is horribly flawed. Having the same skin color as someone doesn't put you on a separate "team" with them. Crimes against them are not crimes against your "team" and by extension you. Also, crimes committed by them are not crimes committed by your "team" and therefore your responsibility.

I would go as far as to say that close family ties don't even put you own the same "team". With few exceptions, crimes committed against you father are crimes committed against him. He has the ability to seek legal restitution for them, you do not. You certainly don't have the right to take legal action on behalf of your 7th cousin, or great-great-great-great-grandfather.

So it's minorities that are ganging up and making white people feel bad?

Strawman McFallacy:

So it's minorities that are ganging up and making white people feel bad?

It's their belief that having the same skin color as someone puts you on the same "team" as that person and are therefor responsible for their crimes and bear the burden of their pains.

For example, assume your are a white guy (you may be). If I go out and rob a bank, do you consider yourself responsible. After all, you are on my "team". One of your teammates, one of your brothers, just robbed a bank and shot a bunch of people. Should you feel guilty about what happened?

cthulhuspawn82:

Strawman McFallacy:

So it's minorities that are ganging up and making white people feel bad?

It's their belief that having the same skin color as someone puts you on the same "team" as that person and are therefor responsible for their crimes and bear the burden of their pains.

For example, assume your are a white guy (you may be). If I go out and rob a bank, do you consider yourself responsible. After all, you are on my "team". One of your teammates, one of your brothers, just robbed a bank and shot a bunch of people. Should you feel guilty about what happened?

I think you seem to be missing the context and historical significance of things here a bit. Widespread trends in history in which one side who looked a certain way harmed and other who looked a different way and how that history shapes beliefs in society today.

I also want to sort point out that you yourself have the problem of painting all minorities a certain way. Your own reasoning actually creates an "us versus them" mentality that you seem to be railing against.

Like I stated in a previous post, humanity tends to pack up based on similarities, this isn't a 'minority thing.'

cthulhuspawn82:

It's their belief that having the same skin color as someone puts you on the same "team" as that person and are therefor responsible for their crimes and bear the burden of their pains.

D'you not realise what you're doing?

You're arguing that it's wrong to generalise by race.

And to do this, you generalised by race.

cthulhuspawn82:
The problem arises from the fact that each minority group, at least in America, sees themselves as being part of some "team".

Silvanus:

cthulhuspawn82:

It's their belief that having the same skin color as someone puts you on the same "team" as that person and are therefor responsible for their crimes and bear the burden of their pains.

D'you not realise what you're doing?

You're arguing that it's wrong to generalise by race.

And to do this, you generalised by race.

cthulhuspawn82:
The problem arises from the fact that each minority group, at least in America, sees themselves as being part of some "team".

I'm not really generalizing that much since I said that all minority groups do it. That's very close to saying "everyone does it" which is not a generalization. Of course, what I said is more like saying everyone but white males do it. So I guess if I am generalizing anyone its white males as I am separating them out from the whole in terms of behavior.

I do believe the language is a little confusing, but hopefully the idea understandable.

edit: I really should have just said "everyone does it" in the first place. Much less confusing, and probably true as there are some white males who do it. It just doesnt seem so prevalent amongst white men.

cthulhuspawn82:

Silvanus:

cthulhuspawn82:

It's their belief that having the same skin color as someone puts you on the same "team" as that person and are therefor responsible for their crimes and bear the burden of their pains.

D'you not realise what you're doing?

You're arguing that it's wrong to generalise by race.

And to do this, you generalised by race.

cthulhuspawn82:
The problem arises from the fact that each minority group, at least in America, sees themselves as being part of some "team".

I'm not really generalizing that much since I said that all minority groups do it. That's very close to saying "everyone does it" which is not a generalization. Of course, what I said is more like saying everyone but white males do it. So I guess if I am generalizing anyone its white males as I am separating them out from the whole in terms of behavior.

I do believe the language is a little confusing, but hopefully the idea understandable.

edit: I really should have just said "everyone does it" in the first place. Much less confusing, and probably true as there are some white males who do it. It just doesnt seem so prevalent amongst white men.

That's one hell of an acrobatics display you're putting on trying to twist your way out of admitting you're generalizing.

White Guilt is stupid.

I'm about half Native-American and half European-American.
Should I hate myself, or feel guilty because one half did some bad stuff to the other half long before I was even a sperm?

TekMoney:

That's one hell of an acrobatics display you're putting on trying to twist your way out of admitting you're generalizing.

I really don't get this focus on how people need to "admit" stuff as if it was some kind of a felony or something. It might be just my weird mind at work, but every time I see someone use a phrase like "Just admit it", "So you admit", etc., on the internet, I imagine them having just done a "good cop, bad cop" (in which they're both of the "cops" and whoever they're talking to is the "suspect") scene for some reason.[1]

As for racial generalizations? I try to ignore them in general, but I have no shame in stating that, for example, in general, I do not find women of all races equally attractive. There are some things in which I discriminate, and I doubt very much that anyone can say they don't.

[1] I should make a thread about this sometime.

cthulhuspawn82:

I'm not really generalizing that much since I said that all minority groups do it. That's very close to saying "everyone does it" which is not a generalization. Of course, what I said is more like saying everyone but white males do it. So I guess if I am generalizing anyone its white males as I am separating them out from the whole in terms of behavior.

1) There was an issue in terms of your original post because you actually specified that minorities club together in teams; by omission, you imply the majority (whites or more specifically re. the above white males) do not.

2) It is generalisation to say minorities club up in teams, and generalisation also that white males do not. The generalisation is at the expense of individuals (who may or may not "team up") in each group, not group against group.

edit: I really should have just said "everyone does it" in the first place. Much less confusing, and probably true as there are some white males who do it. It just doesnt seem so prevalent amongst white men.

There is no particular reason at all to think whites - or white males - do not team up too. In fact, there is plentiful evidence that they do: many resistance movements to minority movements are clearly "team white [and/or] male".

Vegosiux:

As for racial generalizations? I try to ignore them in general, but I have no shame in stating that, for example, in general, I do not find women of all races equally attractive. There are some things in which I discriminate, and I doubt very much that anyone can say they don't.

You just posted this as a call out to all the ladies out there. ADMIT IT!

Strawman McFallacy:

Vegosiux:

As for racial generalizations? I try to ignore them in general, but I have no shame in stating that, for example, in general, I do not find women of all races equally attractive. There are some things in which I discriminate, and I doubt very much that anyone can say they don't.

You just posted this as a call out to all the ladies out there. ADMIT IT!

All of them? Nah. Just the Asian ones. They're my favorites.

Wait, did I say that out loud?

Point I was making is, on a personal level, we all discriminate based on many reasons, sometimes race is such a reason, but as long as it's a matter of personal preference as opposed to a matter of bigotry, I think that's still OK (in my example, what I find attractive or not is not something anyone else has any right to dictate, after all). It's when discrimination is institutionalized that it becomes a problem.

Bit of a tangent, but a few months ago I read an article about how many people believe "hipsters should be taxed more". It's one thing to not like hipsters personally (hell, I find them rather pretentious myself), but to call for an institution of discrimination is quite another.

Now replace "hipsters" with a group that has a more rocky history regarding its relations to "the rest of us", and you've got an entire mess on your hands. Sometimes it's hard to figure out whether the race is a deciding factor, or coincidental.

Vegosiux:

Point I was making is, on a personal level, we all discriminate based on many reasons, sometimes race is such a reason, but as long as it's a matter of personal preference as opposed to a matter of bigotry, I think that's still OK (in my example, what I find attractive or not is not something anyone else has any right to dictate, after all).

Of course, what Cthulhu did went beyond making a statement about his own preferences. He made a statement about what 'minorities in America' do. It had nothing to do with personal preference; it was a claim about others.

Strawman McFallacy:

Helmholtz Watson:
"White" colonizations? Really? Are you sure you don't mean specific countries like the major players I listed above or do care to point out at what point of time during the Scramble for Africa that Switzerland or Finland also controlled a major portion of African land?

Nah, I mean white. Regardless of which European countries it was it still created a ego-political landscape of subjugation in which white people were in control.

How exactly were Estonian people in control of what people in England or France were doing?

Helmholtz Watson:

Strawman McFallacy:

Helmholtz Watson:
"White" colonizations? Really? Are you sure you don't mean specific countries like the major players I listed above or do care to point out at what point of time during the Scramble for Africa that Switzerland or Finland also controlled a major portion of African land?

Nah, I mean white. Regardless of which European countries it was it still created a ego-political landscape of subjugation in which white people were in control.

How exactly were Estonian people in control of what people in England or France were doing?

I'm not sure what you're asking me. I said white people were in control, are the french and english not white?

You seem to of missed the point, anyway. I wrote more after what you have quoted that backs up my position and I don't want to simply repeat myself.

Vegosiux:
Point I was making is, on a personal level, we all discriminate based on many reasons, sometimes race is such a reason, but as long as it's a matter of personal preference as opposed to a matter of bigotry, I think that's still OK (in my example, what I find attractive or not is not something anyone else has any right to dictate, after all). It's when discrimination is institutionalized that it becomes a problem.

Where does one become the other, though?

Or do you mean it everyone is pulling the same way, it's big enough to be a problem, but when everyone is pulling in different directions, it doesn't get anywhere, so to speak?

thaluikhain:

Where does one become the other, though?

I'd say it depends on how it affects their lives, and whether or not the "preference" affects the speaker's life. Or hm, who the focus is on. I mean, I'm not as likely to hook up with a black woman because I generally find Asian and Caucasian women more attractive, that has nothing to do with my opinion of them as people or imply any kind of inferiority on their part - it's just my tastes, nobody told me who I'm supposed to like, and it'd be idiotic to call me a racist over that (even if it technically is racism, but not in the context of how the word generally gets used).

But if I argued that black people shouldn't be allowed by law to own property, that would imply I'm seeing them as "lesser"; and most likely I've also been "taught" that way by my immediate social environment, because going by only first-hand experience with black people, I'd see no reason to think something like that. And that's racist, because I'd be discriminating against a certain group of people with my reason for doing so being flimsy at best (racial stereotypes, for example - broad generalizations and the like. Not a good reason at all.)

Or do you mean it everyone is pulling the same way, it's big enough to be a problem, but when everyone is pulling in different directions, it doesn't get anywhere, so to speak?

That, too. If it's just a matter of tastes/preference, a trend of discrimination isn't as likely to appear, as I'd like to think people are varied enough in their tastes/preferences that it evens out. I'd find it hard to believe that a discriminative trend could be a coincidental alignment of the majority's personal day-to-day tastes, not in this day and age.

I suppose I could say that simply not liking certain aspects of someone's race is not bigotry; it turns into bigotry if you try to interfere with those aspects so that you don't have to deal with them, to force those people to stay hidden or wall them off from the society. Not limited to just race, either.

Let's leave the extremes on the side for this point, they're an entirely different can of worms.[1]

Of course, I've still failed to account for that "Well, what if people actually feel that allowing blacks to own property is going to destroy society?" and all...yeah I need to think some more on this, and come up with something better. I'll get back to you if I do.

[1] For example, I'm of the opinion that the act of self-flagellation some sects practice is harmful to the society as a whole, and thus should be limited/restricted.

Strawman McFallacy:
I'm not sure what you're asking me. I said white people were in control, are the french and english not white?

Well no, actually. At least not necessarily. I mean, overall you're correct, the people in charge were overwhelmingly white, but there exist non-white British and French people. Even during the Colonial period there were a few.

Man, I just don't have time for it. Between being pissed off about that whole potato famine ordeal and dealing with my wife being bent over some diseased blankets I just have my hands full. Living in the past is fucking hard work.

I... what?
I've never had anyone tell me I should feel guilty for being white.
As a white person you should support projects helping people who are being mistreated, whether it be for their skin colour or not.

It's not the duty of white people to help, for instance, black people who are subject to racism. It's the duty of everyone who doesn't have problems to help those who do.
(Well, not a duty. More like a moral calling.)
It doesn't matter if you're black or white or Navajo. So long as you have the resources, you should fight racism because racism is a shitty thing.

I am almost as "white" as it gets, (primarily of Irish and English descent) and my family history in recent centuries has been fairly well documented. I wouldn't share the details even if I remembered all of them, but some facts are pertinent to the discussion:

-Two of my ancestors owned a single slave, the second inherited the slave in question from the first and ended up setting her free.

-Two of my ancestors were indentured servants, slaves with a term limit

-Three of my ancestors were active abolitionists, one of which acted as part of the underground railroad.

-One of my ancestors was a slave, captured and owned by Africans. Her exact fate is unknown, but it is presumed that she died still a slave. In a twisted bit of additional irony, the child she left behind ended up as one of the indentured servants.

None of them have any bearing on who I am, or what I am responsible for. I have a small portion of their genetics, but nothing else, they're just a collection of names, dates, and letters/journals to me. If that was not however the case, I'd still say that the slave owners in my particular past have been fairly well balanced out.

DJjaffacake:

Strawman McFallacy:
I'm not sure what you're asking me. I said white people were in control, are the french and english not white?

Well no, actually. At least not necessarily. I mean, overall you're correct, the people in charge were overwhelmingly white, but there exist non-white British and French people. Even during the Colonial period there were a few.

Of course I realize this, you're missing the part where he ignored my entire explanation for why that didn't matter.

Heronblade:
I am almost as "white" as it gets, (primarily of Irish and English descent) and my family history in recent centuries has been fairly well documented. I wouldn't share the details even if I remembered all of them, but some facts are pertinent to the discussion:

-Two of my ancestors owned a single slave, the second inherited the slave in question from the first and ended up setting her free.

-Two of my ancestors were indentured servants, slaves with a term limit

-Three of my ancestors were active abolitionists, one of which acted as part of the underground railroad.

-One of my ancestors was a slave, captured and owned by Africans. Her exact fate is unknown, but it is presumed that she died still a slave. In a twisted bit of additional irony, the child she left behind ended up as one of the indentured servants.

None of them have any bearing on who I am, or what I am responsible for. I have a small portion of their genetics, but nothing else, they're just a collection of names, dates, and letters/journals to me. If that was not however the case, I'd still say that the slave owners in my particular past have been fairly well balanced out.

Only it's not really about any one person's specific ancestry.
There's a few questions we all have to ask ourselves.
Why is there such disparity between the races of people who were subjugated by white people and white people?
Who is responsible for the disparity? Who is responsible for our prosperity? People who died 100 years ago? then why does the disparity exist? Why do we continue to have statistically higher education, benefits, and options?

We're all responsible for how our society exists, saying "well my specific ancestors didn't contribute so it's not my fault.' misses the point. You live in a society that benefits you because of those people and we all continue to propagate our own privilege in many different ways. Don't feel guilt, by any means, that doesn't help anyone, just understand we are all responsible for the current landscape we live in, regardless of our specific ancestry.
Is no one res

Strawman McFallacy:

Only it's not really about any one person's specific ancestry.
There's a few questions we all have to ask ourselves.
Why is there such disparity between the races of people who were subjugated by white people and white people?
Who is responsible for the disparity? Who is responsible for our prosperity? People who died 100 years ago? then why does the disparity exist? Why do we continue to have statistically higher education, benefits, and options?

We're all responsible for how our society exists, saying "well my specific ancestors didn't contribute so it's not my fault.' misses the point. You live in a society that benefits you because of those people and we all continue to propagate our own privilege in many different ways. Don't feel guilt, by any means, that doesn't help anyone, just understand we are all responsible for the current landscape we live in, regardless of our specific ancestry.
Is no one res

The OP's topic: "Just how guilty should "white people" feel about what people in the past with their skin color did?"

The idea that anyone should feel responsible for the actions of random strangers with the same skin color is in and of itself racist. The idea that one should feel responsible for the actions of one's specific ancestors is much less offensive, albeit still ignorant.

Regardless, the current disparity is more a matter of inertia than anything else, and the primary blame for it does indeed lie with those long dead. Regrettably, I cannot say that there are not people acting to help to keep that status quo, but their actions tend to affect all of the poor, not just a particular ethnic group within that category.

Heronblade:

Strawman McFallacy:

Only it's not really about any one person's specific ancestry.
There's a few questions we all have to ask ourselves.
Why is there such disparity between the races of people who were subjugated by white people and white people?
Who is responsible for the disparity? Who is responsible for our prosperity? People who died 100 years ago? then why does the disparity exist? Why do we continue to have statistically higher education, benefits, and options?

We're all responsible for how our society exists, saying "well my specific ancestors didn't contribute so it's not my fault.' misses the point. You live in a society that benefits you because of those people and we all continue to propagate our own privilege in many different ways. Don't feel guilt, by any means, that doesn't help anyone, just understand we are all responsible for the current landscape we live in, regardless of our specific ancestry.
Is no one res

The OP's topic: "Just how guilty should "white people" feel about what people in the past with their skin color did?"

The idea that anyone should feel responsible for the actions of their race is in and of itself racist. The idea that one should feel responsible for the actions of one's specific ancestors is merely ignorant.

Regardless, the current disparity is more a matter of inertia than anything else, and the primary blame for it does indeed lie with those long dead. Regrettably, I cannot say that there are not people acting to help to keep that status quo, but their actions tend to affect all of the poor, not just a particular ethnic group within that category.

Just be responsible for your own actions in the context that you have benefited from the actions of others. That the same reasons we have more privileges is the same reason other don't.

We all have our own biases we have to be aware of, we have to understand where that comes from. We can't completely divorce ourselves from history when we live in a world built on it.

There's a reason a guy name Greg and a guy named Tyrone can send out a resume with the exact same qualifications and Greg is more likely to get a call back while Tyrone has to wait 5 weeks more. I'm sure every one of those people looking through resumes don't consider themselves a racist but there's biases ingrained into all of us. The only way to get rid of them is to acknowledge that they exist.

Heronblade:
Regardless, the current disparity is more a matter of inertia than anything else, and the primary blame for it does indeed lie with those long dead. Regrettably, I cannot say that there are not people acting to help to keep that status quo, but their actions tend to affect all of the poor, not just a particular ethnic group within that category.

Inertia of what? If you mean that the problems still exist, despite the cause of the problems having (mostly) gone away, that's missing the point a little.

Attitudes are also slow to change. Up until fairly recently, it was normal and approved of to be what we would now call overtly racist. That mindset hasn't just up and vanished.

Those people acting to keep the status quo, do you mean people consciously doing so, or people doing so without really realising it? Most people now, if asked, would probably say that racism is a bad thing, and considering themselves not to be bad people, not to be racist, without stopping to really think about it. Racist people often preface racist statements with "I'm not racist, but" and often they genuinely believe that.

Whether you like it or not, you have been raised in a culture that views races differently, and that is going to affect your worldview to some extent. If you are white, you have been told, in various ways at various times, that your race is inherently superior. Whether or not you believe that (as opposed to simply knowing it to be untrue), you are surrounded by people who do. There is little you can do about that, but that little shouldn't be overlooked. This is often strawmanned into "white guilt".

I've always interpreted "white guilt" as a context for understanding how awesome it is to be white in the US, not that I should actually feel bad for being white. It's about awareness of how social norms influence our behavior. I certainly dont stay up at night thinking about how lucky I am to be white, but I am certainly aware of how being white wasn't a handicap to me being successful.

Strawman McFallacy:

I'm not sure what you're asking me. I said white people were in control, are the french and english not white?

I'm asking why you insist on stating "White people" when you are describing the actions of specific countries, like France, England, Italy, the Netherlands, Spain and Portugal. The whole reason why I keep bringing up Estonia and other similar countries is because its ignorant to assume/state that the specific countries I mentioned, are representative of the actions that ALL European countries(i.e. White People).
So while its true that English and French people are White, so are Estonian and Finnish people, and seeing as how Estonian and Finland don't have the same history as England and France(see: Scramble to Africa, colonialism in Asia, ect.), you are factually wrong to generalize about all White people by attributing the actions of countries like England and the France to that of all White People.

Strawman McFallacy:

You seem to of missed the point, anyway. I wrote more after what you have quoted that backs up my position and I don't want to simply repeat myself.

The only point I missed is how you think pact mentality is relevant to my comment about your wrongful claim that all of Europe has a history of colonialism in Africa, Asia, and Central/South America.

Torkuda:
Here's a subject that comes up all the time. Just how guilty should "white people" feel about what people in the past with their skin color did?

Me? Here's my view, and sure, I'm white, get over it. If you're white, ask yourself these questions. Have you harmed another person of another race simply because of their race? No? Have you supported such things? No? Then why should you feel guilty? When a person is killed in your community, you may feel sad or even scared, but do you feel guilty? No, of course not, you didn't do it. I'm sorry, but being "white" (we should really call it "pale" because the only true "white people" are albinos, but that's another issue) is something you have no control over which does not constitute any kind of crime.

Then again, some seem to reason to me, that if you're white, and you don't support anti-racist causes, you're therefore helping to keep racism going for other white people. You're not setting a good example, and as your race has caused so much trouble, you have a responsibility to set that example. How reasonable is that? Seriously, what if you actually don't trust that the ACLU has anyone's best interest at heart other than their own? Wouldn't supporting them then actually be counterproductive by very definition? What if you realize you're a freaking limited human being and you can't devote yourself to every cause that comes along and expect to do any good? What if you do indeed have limited finances and/or spare time? What if the cause being discussed is in a situation so far removed from you that you indeed do barely understand what's going on? These aren't exactly extreme what ifs.

Really, to me, white people trying to "make up for what happened" or "feeling guilty" is about as pointless as a group of Japanese folks trying to go on an "I'm sorry" campaign to Korea and China. Their attempt would fall on deaf ears anyway, most likely those who would participate weren't associated with anything they would be apologizing for and it wouldn't help anyway. You want to support an anti racist cause regardless of your race? Go for it! But in the meantime, just concentrate on not being a jerk and don't worry about making up for things you didn't do. Regardless of race, we've all screwed up enough times in our lives and have enough things to say sorry about, without apologizing for the things people who look like us did. Besides, isn't focusing more on a person's color then their character (ie, saying a white person should feel guilty) the very essence of racism anyway?

We not dealing with Racism in the past, you are feeling guilty because this stuff is going on RIGHT NOW!!! I never seen a White people claim to feel guilty for what their ancestors did, but they feel guilty for what going on RIGHT HERE RIGHT NOW!!!

You white people, only care about issues when it faces your own people. I can understand White Pride and the reasons you put your people first, but dont attack us for defending our people in the same way. the key difference is that White People have the power to force their pride and prejudice on others, aka Racism.

When those fake white jews were attacked during WW2's Holocaust you white people gave them their own Country, and Powerful Weapons.
But what about the Black Holocaust which was worst than anything white jews in during the time of hitler ever faced. Right here in the USA of America. Even to this day. We faced Prejudice, Racism, Hate, Death, Pain, torment and Genocide as if we were below animals.
You white people even used our kids of Alligator bate!!
You took us away from our kids and family
You brainwashed us to be weak-minded, and dependent on the white man's hand.
You took away our culture and history.
You took claims for all our history. Go read your history books, and History TV shows and Movies. You took all our History. You have Caucasians have even claimed to be the race of people that Built the Pyramids in ancient kemit. Even going as far to say that Ancient Kemit people were Dark Skin Caucasians!! Thats craziness. You took our history.
You label us as Below Human in your media. All you do in your media is promote us as criminals and thugs, or gangster rappers, or a sports player. Where are the positive images of our people in the media? Just look at the Obama Election. I dont even support him, because he himself doesnt even consider himself a black man, and doesnt relate to us on anything that MLK and Malcolm X supported. This guy is the European's typical Black Face Politician that is used to do more control over the minorities in the USA.
You even go as far as to perform Genocide against us. Margaret Sanger was a firm supported of Black Genocide! http://blackgenocide.org/planned.html
Even the state of North Carolina was guilty of Black genocide here in the USA.
http://blackgirlgreenworld.com/?p=2509
The Trayvon Martin case and many other cases like it are examples of Genocide. Legal process of killing Black People.
You sic black agents to get inside the black community to destroy them from the inside. Ever heard of COINTELPRO?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zwdx1ewLBYA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=heJea1_z2Ow

Thats Your Guilt!!! Thats Your Sin!!!

How dare you!!

Grandcrusader:

Torkuda:
Here's a subject that comes up all the time. Just how guilty should "white people" feel about what people in the past with their skin color did?

Me? Here's my view, and sure, I'm white, get over it. If you're white, ask yourself these questions. Have you harmed another person of another race simply because of their race? No? Have you supported such things? No? Then why should you feel guilty? When a person is killed in your community, you may feel sad or even scared, but do you feel guilty? No, of course not, you didn't do it. I'm sorry, but being "white" (we should really call it "pale" because the only true "white people" are albinos, but that's another issue) is something you have no control over which does not constitute any kind of crime.

Then again, some seem to reason to me, that if you're white, and you don't support anti-racist causes, you're therefore helping to keep racism going for other white people. You're not setting a good example, and as your race has caused so much trouble, you have a responsibility to set that example. How reasonable is that? Seriously, what if you actually don't trust that the ACLU has anyone's best interest at heart other than their own? Wouldn't supporting them then actually be counterproductive by very definition? What if you realize you're a freaking limited human being and you can't devote yourself to every cause that comes along and expect to do any good? What if you do indeed have limited finances and/or spare time? What if the cause being discussed is in a situation so far removed from you that you indeed do barely understand what's going on? These aren't exactly extreme what ifs.

Really, to me, white people trying to "make up for what happened" or "feeling guilty" is about as pointless as a group of Japanese folks trying to go on an "I'm sorry" campaign to Korea and China. Their attempt would fall on deaf ears anyway, most likely those who would participate weren't associated with anything they would be apologizing for and it wouldn't help anyway. You want to support an anti racist cause regardless of your race? Go for it! But in the meantime, just concentrate on not being a jerk and don't worry about making up for things you didn't do. Regardless of race, we've all screwed up enough times in our lives and have enough things to say sorry about, without apologizing for the things people who look like us did. Besides, isn't focusing more on a person's color then their character (ie, saying a white person should feel guilty) the very essence of racism anyway?

We not dealing with Racism in the past, you are feeling guilty because this stuff is going on RIGHT NOW!!! I never seen a White people claim to feel guilty for what their ancestors did, but they feel guilty for what going on RIGHT HERE RIGHT NOW!!!

You white people, only care about issues when it faces your own people. I can understand White Pride and the reasons you put your people first, but dont attack us for defending our people in the same way. the key difference is that White People have the power to force their pride and prejudice on others, aka Racism.

When those fake white jews were attacked during WW2's Holocaust you white people gave them their own Country, and Powerful Weapons.
But what about the Black Holocaust which was worst than anything white jews in during the time of hitler ever faced. Right here in the USA of America. Even to this day. We faced Prejudice, Racism, Hate, Death, Pain, torment and Genocide as if we were below animals.
You white people even used our kids of Alligator bate!!
You took us away from our kids and family
You brainwashed us to be weak-minded, and dependent on the white man's hand.
You took away our culture and history.
You took claims for all our history. Go read your history books, and History TV shows and Movies. You took all our History. You have Caucasians have even claimed to be the race of people that Built the Pyramids in ancient kemit. Even going as far to say that Ancient Kemit people were Dark Skin Caucasians!! Thats craziness. You took our history.
You label us as Below Human in your media. All you do in your media is promote us as criminals and thugs, or gangster rappers, or a sports player. Where are the positive images of our people in the media? Just look at the Obama Election. I dont even support him, because he himself doesnt even consider himself a black man, and doesnt relate to us on anything that MLK and Malcolm X supported. This guy is the European's typical Black Face Politician that is used to do more control over the minorities in the USA.
You even go as far as to perform Genocide against us. Margaret Sanger was a firm supported of Black Genocide! http://blackgenocide.org/planned.html
Even the state of North Carolina was guilty of Black genocide here in the USA.
http://blackgirlgreenworld.com/?p=2509
The Trayvon Martin case and many other cases like it are examples of Genocide. Legal process of killing Black People.
You sic black agents to get inside the black community to destroy them from the inside. Ever heard of COINTELPRO?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zwdx1ewLBYA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=heJea1_z2Ow

Thats Your Guilt!!! Thats Your Sin!!!

How dare you!!

It's amazing how badly we've failed at it considering how good we were in the past.

But, you got us.

See, it's all a vast conspiracy on every white persons part to destroy every non-white culture on the planet. That of course includes the mongol-descent 'whites' in eastern europe, the slavs and estonians, since they aren't really white. And the Mediterranean Italians and Greeks, who are also not really white.

Every white child is, at the age of twelve (give or take depending on circumstances, dentist appointment etc.) brought into the fold, taught about the unending culture war against the non-whites. They are taught about how white people are superior, and how it's our duty to eliminate all those non-white cultures who threaten our way of life.

And I mean, how brilliant are we, we even set up entire communities of white abolitionist, anti racist, and universal suffragist in order to infiltrate the non-white communities, to make them think that white people weren't all bent on their destruction.

You've got to admit, we're good at what we do, and what we do is kill.

I mean, we've even really started to warm up to mixed race couples, to better infiltrate the non-white societies and interbreed with them, hence bringing them closer to genetic whiteness. Their children will intermarry with white children, and so on, until a few generations down the line there will only be white people.

Mind you, breaking the will of every black person who achieves political office, or joins the police force or any other government agency is difficult. In fact, the High Council has sneaking suspicions that perhaps these officers and politicians, are in fact only faking the white culture they immediately begin to embody upon entering the ranks of any enforcement agency. Because after all, no true black man or woman, or asian man or woman, or any non-white race would ever join the white suppression machine and retain their own culture. The foolishness of such a thought.

Wait, something is happening to my computer.

image

Oh sorry guys, for some reason I feel as if I was just in some alternate reality where white people were a hivemind entity bent on global domination instead of a diverse group that has killed eachother more throughout history then they ever did non-whites.

Weird.

Anywho, OT, no I'm not guilty, because I'm not a racist. I'm sad at racism and try to fight it wherever I find it, whether it be black on white or white on black or white on yellow or yellow on white or kind of greyish on white etc etc so on. I mean, really, what else can you do other then decry it and try to get people to act better.

Torkuda:

Sure, I've got a bike, live in an apartment on about minimum wage and doubt the motives of most activist groups, I'll go do... what? Give a begger of any skin color food or a bus ticket for the asking? Done that several times. Direct poor people to my church which runs a self help charity? Check. Try to learn about the issue? Sure. Feel guilty about things I didn't do? Screw that.

As far as my body language... um, no. In Alaska during my childhood my favorite pastor was a black man from Africa with a heavy accent, I had both friends and enemies who were black. As an adult the only time I ever feel threatened by a black person is in situations I would feel threatened by a white person. Maybe if YOU don't function this way, you should evaluate why not.

Why do I keep referring to racist actions as things I haven't done, precisely because, I haven't. I have sins of my own to account for, I'm not accounting for someone else's.

Ooooo... really shouldn't have mentioned that dude. A lot of people around here really hate the religious and mentioning it in a thread talking about "white guilt" is just going to reinforce people stereotyping you as a brainwashed, bible thumping, homosexual hating, pregnant woman kidnapping, moron (With everything I just mentioned being things I've actually seen people use to describe anyone that's religious).

But anyway, welcome to the forum, hopefully my prediction is horribly wrong and you'll have a good time here.

Anyway, as to the main topic.

Honestly, given that all races have been evil and vile to each other for the entirety of human history, there's nothing special about Caucasians if they trully are benefiting from "privilege" aside from it happening now when we have the best communication systems in our entire history. And I'm sure if/when China becomes the lead dog again that people will complain about the privilege of the Chinese.

Helmholtz Watson:

Torkuda:
Here's a subject that comes up all the time. Just how guilty should "white people" feel about what people in the past with their skin color did?

"Comes up all the time"? Really? Where do you live where this "comes up all the time"? I could see it being a topic that a teacher might go over in a sociology class, but outside of academia I can't recall this subject repeatedly coming up in conversation.

Well it's a topic that comes up all the time on this very forum with people talking about "cis-gendered white male privilege" quite often in conversation.

Edit: And now I see that a lot of other people have made similar comments and I'm actually rather surprised that no one sees such comments like "cis-gendered white male privilege" and sees that these are meant to make white people feel guilty.

Helmholtz Watson:

Strawman McFallacy:

I'm not sure what you're asking me. I said white people were in control, are the french and english not white?

I'm asking why you insist on stating "White people" when you are describing the actions of specific countries, like France, England, Italy, the Netherlands, Spain and Portugal. The whole reason why I keep bringing up Estonia and other similar countries is because its ignorant to assume/state that the specific countries I mentioned, are representative of the actions that ALL European countries(i.e. White People).
So while its true that English and French people are White, so are Estonian and Finnish people, and seeing as how Estonian and Finland don't have the same history as England and France(see: Scramble to Africa, colonialism in Asia, ect.), you are factually wrong to generalize about all White people by attributing the actions of countries like England and the France to that of all White People.

Strawman McFallacy:

You seem to of missed the point, anyway. I wrote more after what you have quoted that backs up my position and I don't want to simply repeat myself.

The only point I missed is how you think pact mentality is relevant to my comment about your wrongful claim that all of Europe has a history of colonialism in Africa, Asia, and Central/South America.

My parents are Irish immigrants, I understand many European countries did not participate in colonialism. However, an Estonian family can move to North America and get the benefits of colonialism more than say, a Jamaican family. My individual ancestors were not colonialists, yet I still manage to identify with people who look like me more than people who don't. We all do it.

We all root for the home team, or at least the closest thing to it.

It's why the most white guiltiest film of all, Dances With Wolves had to use a white protagonist for us to be able to identify with native people, and also mitigate our own "guilt" in a way. The film didn't even let native people be the star of their own history.

again, repeating what I and many people have said, it's about awareness and historical and social objectivity. See other points of view, understand why people of a certain skin colour live better than other and understand the history of why that exists.

No individual is to blame for our entire society yet everybody is responsible for it.

cthulhuspawn82:

That logic is horribly flawed. Having the same skin color as someone doesn't put you on a separate "team" with them. Crimes against them are not crimes against your "team" and by extension you. Also, crimes committed by them are not crimes committed by your "team" and therefore your responsibility.

I think part of the issue that race is a bit more than skin colour alone. There are different human cultures all over the world and roughly speaking those of similar or related cultures share similar racial features because they share more common ancestors. The Chinese have their own distinctive customs and that's why you get China Towns in Western cities. People of the same race tend to group together because of shared cultural and other experiences.

And yes, people do form such groups because, I suggest, humans are tribal creatures. We therefore show favouritism to those deemed to be "in our group"- This not only includes race, but also nationality and economic class. We then unfortunately tend to show instinctive bias against those deemed "outsiders".

 Pages PREV 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 NEXT

Reply to Thread

This thread is locked