80% of French people believe socialist taxes have failed them

source:
More than 70 per cent of the French feel taxes are "excessive", and 80 per cent believe the president's economic policy is "misguided" and "inefficient". This goes far beyond the tax exiles such as Gérard Depardieu, members of the Peugeot family or Chanel's owners. Worse, after decades of living in one of the most redistributive systems in western Europe, 54 per cent of the French believe that taxes - of which there have been 84 new ones in the past two years, rising from 42 per cent of GDP in 2009 to 46.3 per cent this year - now widen social inequalities instead of reducing them.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/10390571/france-hollande-taxes-socialist-farrage.html

Well, I guess this is what happens when you have a economical policy of "just take everything that people earn".

-_-

Britain has fairly a fairly socialist tax system as well, just less so and is quoted in that article as being the place the french are flocking too. I dont think many people at all believe a society should be purely socialist, the question really is to what degree and how much. I think Britain has an alrightish system since the pound is fairing well and our healthcare is pretty good (Although Scandinavia seems to know exactly what they are doing) but our welfare system has a lot to be desired.

I think they toed the line too far in how socialistic they should be. Tone it back and appreciate the benefit of capitalism while still retaining basic human rights like not losing an eye to a sudden serious infection (Which the NHS saved me from 4 days ago with the fastest and most fantastic care ive ever received). Theres obvious benefits to both. Innovation and not losing an eye are among them.

hakkarin:

source:
More than 70 per cent of the French feel taxes are "excessive", and 80 per cent believe the president's economic policy is "misguided" and "inefficient". This goes far beyond the tax exiles such as Gérard Depardieu, members of the Peugeot family or Chanel's owners. Worse, after decades of living in one of the most redistributive systems in western Europe, 54 per cent of the French believe that taxes - of which there have been 84 new ones in the past two years, rising from 42 per cent of GDP in 2009 to 46.3 per cent this year - now widen social inequalities instead of reducing them.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/10390571/france-hollande-taxes-socialist-farrage.html

Well, I guess this is what happens when you have a economical policy of "just take everything that people earn".

-_-

People thinking that they don't like paying tax and that government is inefficient is hardly groundbreaking, or indicative of an actual problem.
People in the US would say exactly the same thing about their (relatively tiny) tax bill. If they did polls here in the UK people would tell you entirely seriously that 'immigrant welfare costs more than pensions', or that 'health and safety law has nationally banned conkers'. Both are entirely untrue - polls are generally only useful to gauge people's perceptions, not the actual situation.

Also, while France is strongly redistributive it isn't even remotely socialist.

Plus this article is from the Telegraph, which is economically libertarian and socially conservative. Worse than that, it's basically waffle, with no references, and full of unsubstantiated arguments like "France is an old Catholic country that, for over a century, was influenced by unapologetic Marxism. It is atavistically hostile to money".
There is nothing that I've seen in that article to back up the argument made.

A more reliable source would be nice. It's not for nothing that people call it the Torygraph. In fairness it's not as bad as the Mail though.

But yeah, I'm with BiscuitTrouser. They went a bit too far, but that doesn't mean relatively high tax rates are always bad. Or social democratic policies in general for that matter, in fact I'd say the UK could stand to be more socialist. I'd also like to know how many of these new taxes are progressive, because flat taxes are terrible without fail.

I believe in France at the moment there's a lot of media talk about taxes, highlighted by Gerald Depardieu high-profile move to Russia. Plus, Hollande is an unpopular president, probably because of France's sluggish economic growth.
In these sorts of contexts, media debates do tend to distort public opinion about certain matters. In the UK for instance a lot of people actually believe in this phenomenon called "welfare tourism" where EU migrants come to the UK specifically to claim benefits. The EU and a House of Lords committee have looked into the matter and not found any evidence to support these claims made by certain newspapers in the UK. The point is that peoples perceptions of political matters can often be far removed from reality.

All this opinion poll shows is that Hollande's tax policy is unpopular in France. It doesn't say anything about wherever the taxes are actually working nor does it offer any evidence to support the assertion that "socialist" taxation models don't work.

hakkarin:

source:
More than 70 per cent of the French feel taxes are "excessive", and 80 per cent believe the president's economic policy is "misguided" and "inefficient". This goes far beyond the tax exiles such as Gérard Depardieu, members of the Peugeot family or Chanel's owners. Worse, after decades of living in one of the most redistributive systems in western Europe, 54 per cent of the French believe that taxes - of which there have been 84 new ones in the past two years, rising from 42 per cent of GDP in 2009 to 46.3 per cent this year - now widen social inequalities instead of reducing them.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/10390571/france-hollande-taxes-socialist-farrage.html

Well, I guess this is what happens when you have a economical policy of "just take everything that people earn".

-_-

Yeah, that's EXACTLY what the policy is. "Just take everything". Uhu. High taxation = Everything.

Honestly, why should I take you serious when you aren't even trying to present a serious argument? No nuances, just 'Taxation takes everything'.

We get a lot of topics which covers taxation, and being against it is fine. However, you have to at least TRY to provide material for discussion, not just post something and scream "LOOK, LOOK! THIS VALIDATES MY VIEW OF THE WORLD!".
Please, try to formulate a more nuanced and dicussion-worthy OP.

It isn't surprising that the people believe the taxation widens the social equality gap. After all the higher the taxation the more the upper classes are incentivized to look for loopholes and deductions to reduce their taxable income and since they're the only ones who can afford fancy accountants who specialize in that the only ones who actually end up paying more are the lower middle classes and the poor. (And if the rich can't find the loopholes the incentive becomes high enough to just leave and pay taxes elsewhere)

While I don't know how bad loopholes and deductions are in France, Belgium is a specialist in that. We have one of the highest corporate taxes in the western world (34%) but big companies like Exxon Mobil or Ab Inbev manage to pay only 4-6% on their billions of profits. So the ones who end up being screwed are SME's usually owned by middle class people and not the rich. And when it comes to taxes on income it's again the big companies and the people who work there (and usually aren't poor) who win. Since we hit the 50% bracket extremely early (36k € a year) and companies have to pay an extra 16% of taxes to social security what they do is give average salaries but shower us with less taxed benefits (company car, cellphone, laptop, gas card, etc.). But this is especially lucrative for big companies because they probably get rebates on these advantages (a fleet provider probably offers better prizes to companies leasing 500 cars rather than 10). And let's not forget avoiding these taxes through benefits is only really worth it at higher salaries (it's probably not worth it to offer a company car and 1.2k € monthly to a cashier instead of 1.6k € monthly, and heck said cashier probably prefers the 1.6k€ monthly). So yeah...

OneCatch :

hakkarin:

source:
More than 70 per cent of the French feel taxes are "excessive", and 80 per cent believe the president's economic policy is "misguided" and "inefficient". This goes far beyond the tax exiles such as Gérard Depardieu, members of the Peugeot family or Chanel's owners. Worse, after decades of living in one of the most redistributive systems in western Europe, 54 per cent of the French believe that taxes - of which there have been 84 new ones in the past two years, rising from 42 per cent of GDP in 2009 to 46.3 per cent this year - now widen social inequalities instead of reducing them.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/10390571/france-hollande-taxes-socialist-farrage.html

Well, I guess this is what happens when you have a economical policy of "just take everything that people earn".

-_-

People thinking that they don't like paying tax and that government is inefficient is hardly groundbreaking, or indicative of an actual problem.
People in the US would say exactly the same thing about their (relatively tiny) tax bill. If they did polls here in the UK people would tell you entirely seriously that 'immigrant welfare costs more than pensions', or that 'health and safety law has nationally banned conkers'. Both are entirely untrue - polls are generally only useful to gauge people's perceptions, not the actual situation.

Also, while France is strongly redistributive it isn't even remotely socialist.

Plus this article is from the Telegraph, which is economically libertarian and socially conservative. Worse than that, it's basically waffle, with no references, and full of unsubstantiated arguments like "France is an old Catholic country that, for over a century, was influenced by unapologetic Marxism. It is atavistically hostile to money".
There is nothing that I've seen in that article to back up the argument made.

That depends entirely on what state you are talking about. The South? Sure they have low taxes (and low cost of living). NY State? Our taxes are comparable to yours probably (60-75%, and that's WITHOUT healthcare or free colleges), on top of some of the highest cost of living in the country.

I completely agree with this and believe the Socialist taxes have failed, in particular because the taxes aren't socialist enough and the taxation isn't large enough.

No form of government is perfect and no action can be taken without complaints.

That being said, seems they have gotten a pretty shitty deal.

Funniest thing is, it comes across to me that people who are the loudest in proclaiming themselves "patriots" are also the loudest in going on about how "taxes are theft" and how "the government has no right to what they make".

I mean, in my opinion, if you're a patriot you'd want to give something back, but that's just me...

80% of French are failing to recognise their barely existent work hours and fairly good salaries.

Also I hesitate to trust the Daily Telegraph (a notably right wing publication) on this kind of issue.

The other thing is there's no point in higher taxes unless you have a "no taxes, no land" rule.

Fireaxe:

Also I hesitate to trust the Daily Telegraph (a notably right wing publication) on this kind of issue.

If the Telegraph is printing the results of an independent poll, there is no particular reason to assume the poll is wrong because the Telegraph is right-wing biased. They may have selected one poll that fitted their preferences and ignored others that didn't of course.

On the other hand, there is no reason to assume that the French population's assessment of taxation is necessarily useful beyond the terms of whether they feel taxation is excessive. Polls in the UK, for instance, have shown a majority thinking their taxes are too high, whilst a majority simultaneously wanting the government to provide more and better services!

Agema:

Fireaxe:

Also I hesitate to trust the Daily Telegraph (a notably right wing publication) on this kind of issue.

If the Telegraph is printing the results of an independent poll, there is no particular reason to assume the poll is wrong because the Telegraph is right-wing biased. They may have selected one poll that fitted their preferences and ignored others that didn't of course.

On the other hand, there is no reason to assume that the French population's assessment of taxation is necessarily useful beyond the terms of whether they feel taxation is excessive. Polls in the UK, for instance, have shown a majority thinking their taxes are too high, whilst a majority simultaneously wanting the government to provide more and better services!

There is a difference between some people complaining about taxes and 80% doing so.

hakkarin:

There is a difference between some people complaining about taxes and 80% doing so.

There's also a difference between "some" and "a majority", which is what Agema was talking about. And, as he also noted, the sentiment does seem to be common.

"I want free schools, free healthcare, free roads, free public transport...wait, taxes? What do you mean, taxes! That thieving government has no right to MAH MONEY!"

I see this all over the place.

Vegosiux:

hakkarin:

There is a difference between some people complaining about taxes and 80% doing so.

There's also a difference between "some" and "a majority", which is what Agema was talking about. And, as he also noted, the sentiment does seem to be common.

"I want free schools, free healthcare, free roads, free public transport...wait, taxes? What do you mean, taxes! That thieving government has no right to MAH MONEY!"

I see this all over the place.

And then once the government starts taking so much of peoples money that working or creating something becomes pointless and/or too diffult for people to bother, then people won't get any of those things anyways because the state income from taxes starts dropping as people stop bothering to do the things that are being taxed in the first place.

People do no not bother working for trinkets. Tax people to highly and they won't bother (or in the case of the wealthy, they will just go somewher else where taxes are lower).

 

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