Where do you stand?
With the people
46.8% (29)
46.8% (29)
With the leaders
21% (13)
21% (13)
Alone
14.5% (9)
14.5% (9)
Outside
16.1% (10)
16.1% (10)
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Poll: Armed Revolution: Where do you stand?

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The Gentleman:

Dragonlayer:
Excellent, we can stand shoulder to shoulder against when we're lined up against the wall!

Oh, hell no. In the event of a sustained armed rebellion that looks like we're going to lose, I will be out and on my way to one of a handful of locations I've already scouted out. You're on your own there...

Traitor! Dissident! Sympathiser to anti-government jerks! Fine, I didn't need you for my vainglorious last stand anyway!

Hmmm, all this talk of revolution and oppression is making me want to play Tropico again.

maxben:

Dragonlayer:
I bet I'm going to be the only government loyalist in the poll and almost certainly the only one to do so because I've always wanted to crack some skulls as a secret policeman.

- The government remains a stable institution, no matter how seemingly corrupt it is, so is more likely to be able to provide the services necessary to maintain the country (i.e. they have offices/departments and the resources to maintain infrastructure, emergency services, power, food distribution, etc, etc) then violent revolutionaries.
- The government forces are more likely to be better equipped and trained (I'm aware that portions of the Armed Forces could very well defect to the anti-government side but I have a plan for that: "Oh nuts.")
- The anti-government forces are unlikely to be able to have coherent and consistent aims and can become easily fractured, so someone standing with them in the name of fighting for a open democratic society could very well end up calling hardline Fascists comrades(as shown by history, particularly in the Russian Civil War with the mix and match of anti-Bolshevik forces ranging from rival Marxists through republicans to Tsarist aristocrats. See also Syria with all the extremist groups being drawn into the fray).
- Fighting with the government lets me say "You rebel scum!" to opponents The government provides a lot of services for me that I generally take for granted, so while I may not agree one hundred percent on whatever they do, I am grateful for their existence.

As a fellow loyalist, I agree with you. In some cases, I would turn rebel, but a government needs to be truly horrific or beyond fixing to go that route. I think that most people agree with that as often in revolutions that is the case. I base this on the fact that here in Canada, staying under the British sphere ended up being a very good thing.

One could snidely argue that it ultimately worked out better for the rebellious Patriots since they become a superpower and our (British) Empire fell apart, but that's a topic for another day....

OneCatch :
-snip-

Firstly, for using the same system thing... Cause it works. It may not be the best system out there but it had definably worked for a long time... It is just, like any system, can be corrupted and can get to a point which it needs to be repaired...

Think of it like a house. A house can work just fine for decades before finally getting too old which it needs repairing... That's the idea here. Using same house but just repairing and remodeling it to give it that new fresh look.

Secondly, I never said anything about the revolution being destructive or not. It could be a peaceful one for all we know! (I rather have a peaceful revolution than a destructive one).

Thirdly, the laws which you mentioned I agree with. There's are a lot of laws which are reasonable and should definably be accepted... BUT when a law removes an individual's or a group of individuals' personal freedom that does NOT HARM OTHERS, then that law is unjust and is there either for the Government's personal opinion reason or for giving power to the Government...

I can name a few laws easily right now actually that I believe will definably be removed no matter what. There is also things which the Government is trying to pass RIGHT NOW that I believe should NEVER be passed...

Plus the Government had already shown the corruption and the economy itself really needs a reset or something... The economy has only been getting worse and worse cause of the choices made by our Government...

Well living in the midwest were government is looked at and decided is untrustworthy but also being left-ish I also don't agree with the majority either I say no people on my lawn. It's my lawn if the government steps in then well it's their lawn if the rebel scum step in I'll fight if they arn't fighting for something I agree with. But in all honesty I would probably surrender and side with the government in the end because they have food and water, and chances are the rebels don't realize the stuff that they provide.

Captcha: yeah right. indeed capthca indeed

Jusey1:

OneCatch :
-snip-

Firstly, for using the same system thing... Cause it works. It may not be the best system out there but it had definably worked for a long time... It is just, like any system, can be corrupted and can get to a point which it needs to be repaired...

Think of it like a house. A house can work just fine for decades before finally getting too old which it needs repairing... That's the idea here. Using same house but just repairing and remodeling it to give it that new fresh look.

Secondly, I never said anything about the revolution being destructive or not. It could be a peaceful one for all we know! (I rather have a peaceful revolution than a destructive one).

Thirdly, the laws which you mentioned I agree with. There's are a lot of laws which are reasonable and should definably be accepted... BUT when a law removes an individual's or a group of individuals' personal freedom that does NOT HARM OTHERS, then that law is unjust and is there either for the Government's personal opinion reason or for giving power to the Government...

I can name a few laws easily right now actually that I believe will definably be removed no matter what. There is also things which the Government is trying to pass RIGHT NOW that I believe should NEVER be passed...

Plus the Government had already shown the corruption and the economy itself really needs a reset or something... The economy has only been getting worse and worse cause of the choices made by our Government...

That's fair enough, but what would you say sets current-era US governments apart from previous ones? It might be best if you were to give a few examples of these laws or policies so I can see what you're getting at.
Cause from my perspective the past few governments have done some pretty grim shit, but the ones before did worse shit, and the ones before that don't really bear thinking about. I'm not sure what makes you think that this government is worse (in the context of freedoms) than the ones which sanctioned the Trail of Tears or slavery or Prohibition or HUAC or Tuskegee. Similarly, when it comes to the economy the US has been in worse straits before, so what's unique about this government or the last?

I'd also hope for a peaceful revolution if there had to be one, but this notion of a quick and bloodless revolution is mostly romantic. Even relatively clean Coups are often followed by loyalty purges and christknows what else - and that's if you succeed. You spoke about 'taking out' the top government officials in your previous post; that alone would probably result in martial law, suspension of civil liberties, and a huge military crackdown.
And civil wars are utterly devastating affairs - they have been throughout history - because they pit neighbour against neighbour. Civilian casualties almost aren't a factor because the line between combatant and not is about as blurry as it can be. I think if you're going to argue in favour of revolution you should perhaps be a little more... sober, stoic... about the likely effects it would have. You can't just treat it as 'repairing a house' (No offence to the analogy itself, which explained your stance quite well).

I suspect that on the issues of personal privacy like the NSA revelations we're probably fairly closely aligned, but I think it's important to note that governments are given rights by their people. It sickens me how little people care about the NSA or Guantanamo Bay, but it doesn't change the fact that if people did care enough they could make it a campaign issue at the next election. The government cannot be blamed for every instance of voter apathy, and the US Constitution and Bill of Rights provide more protections than most.

2012 Wont Happen:
There is no correct answer without knowing the ideological stances of the revolutionaries and governments in question and at least a basic cultural context of the area.

Very good point. I wanted it to be as broad as possible, but I realize now that my hypothetical is too broad, and makes it difficult to decide.

I'll stand alone, if either group need to use weapons/violence to realize their goals, they can't be my goals.

OneCatch :

That's fair enough, but what would you say sets current-era US governments apart from previous ones? It might be best if you were to give a few examples of these laws or policies so I can see what you're getting at.
Cause from my perspective the past few governments have done some pretty grim shit, but the ones before did worse shit, and the ones before that don't really bear thinking about. I'm not sure what makes you think that this government is worse (in the context of freedoms) than the ones which sanctioned the Trail of Tears or slavery or Prohibition or HUAC or Tuskegee. Similarly, when it comes to the economy the US has been in worse straits before, so what's unique about this government or the last?

The difference is... The past laws and forms of Government done grim shit only to a specific group of people and eventually everybody else begun to rethink and feel bad... And we are slowly fixing that up. (African American rights, woman rights, etc. We are now on Gay Rights stage)... And the current laws that are trying to get passed or did so are laws which remove a freedom or two from EVERYBODY while giving more power to the Government...

Like ever since 9/11, we got laws which allowed all of this security stuff which at times is an invade of privacy in order to "protect the nation from terrorists" but to me, I honestly believe the Government just want to be able to spy on us even more so than before... There is also the gun control laws which they also using school-shooting excuses in order to get passed. Plus the SOPA stuff that they keep trying over and over again...

They are trying to go more for control over us rather than forcing a group of individuals to live a grimdark life and I'm against that kind of thinking and doing...

Plus corruption, to me, is when the Government will abuse the Social Norm in order to achieve power and to achieve doing these things... I mean, 9/11 (for example), they abuse the nationwide fear we all gained from that (Nationwide fears do count as being part of the Social Norm) and cause them abusing that, we got all of these anti-terrorist laws and stuff going on... (Plus some people assumed cause of this, we had another 4 years of Bush... Which may or may not be true. I wont debate about it cause it is honestly not worth it)...

Anyways. I hope that give you a better idea of what I've got going in my head... I know I'm not really good at explaining my mind a lot...

Again, it depends but for the people arguing that armed revolution almost never ends well, well, for there to be widespread support of an armed insurrection the situation probably has to be pretty bad in the first place and peaceful reformation is usually very unlikely for the nearer future. People generally don't rise up against a professional army and police force with superior equipment because it is fun.

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