Venice to vote for independence

http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/03/15/more-sovereignty-votes-sunday-referendum-may-see-venice-elect-to-secede-from-italy/

A referendum is being held, starting today and ending on Friday, if Venice and the surrounding regions should leave Italy and reform the Most Serene Republic of Venice. If successful, they will withhold taxes from Rome and write a Declaration of Independence.

Now, this is an odd situation. Unlike Scotland's upcoming vote on staying with the UK, it doesn't seem to be condoned by the national government. Although, the Italian government hasn't sent in the military or anything to stop the vote, even though the area in question doesn't seem like it would be able to fight off the Italian army.

This also is going to raise a lot of issues. Italy depends a lot on the taxing the richer north for it national budget. Losing a prime tourist destination seems like it would only worsen Italy's current finical situation. Yet, those same higher taxes, at least the article says (could be stretching the truth there and maybe something else is causing the divide), that those taxes are the reason why Venice wants out. This also brings up to how this new state will fit in with the EU. Will they get membership automatically, since they were part of a member state, or will they have to apply? Could Italy, if it is really angry about the situation, block their membership? Will Russia, China, United States, Britain, and France all sign off on it's statehood so it can become part of the UN? Russia and China could use an independent Venice as a tool to get the other three permanent members to drop their support of Kosovo's nationhood, or make them drop their objections to the current Crimea situation.

Can a country be part of the EU but not be a UN member?

Edit: The votes are in, and they have voted for...

*Drum Roll*

Independence!

http://www.cnbc.com/id/101516771

Hmmm, Umberto Bossi's Northern League tried to secede from Italy a while ago, but nothing came of it...interesting development, though...not going to call slippery slope YET, but if this trend continues, I wouldn't be surprise if Catalonia, Corsica, Basque, etc. start getting ballsy again.

I actually, if I recall correctly, when Canada recognized Kosovo's statehood they kind of attached "...but this is an exceptional situation, not a precedent (so you guys in Quebec, keep quiet)".

As for the EU/UN statuses, I think the European Commission might have some of that info...

tbth there's little reason they shouldn't let peoples form borders along whatever reasonable cultural lines they like within an idealised "Europe".

it's not like it would make that much difference under a "federal" system...outside increasing "local democracy"/"democratic accountability" and making people happy as a result.

the potential re-emergence of, and case for, "city states" in the 21st century...is actually something i've been thinking about for a awhile in the context of the UKs constitutional set up and "London".

thing is but...it should never viewed in pursuit of escaping redistributive taxation/spending between states...because ultimately that conflicts with the main intended goal of shared development that lies at the very heart of being on the inside of such a supranational institution in the first place.

Sleekit:
tbth there's little reason they shouldn't let peoples form borders along whatever reasonable cultural lines they like within an idealised "Europe".

it's not like it would make that much difference under a "federal" system...outside increasing "local democracy"/"democratic accountability" and making people happy as a result.

the potential re-emergence of, and case for, "city states" in the 21st century...is actually something i've been thinking about for a awhile in the context of the UKs constitutional set up and "London".

The BBC had a piece a while ago discussing the possibility that the rest of the UK might be better off without London, because policy would revert to supporting the manufacturing base which is actually the main industry everywhere except london, and it might reduce the north south divide. Can't remember what they concluded though, knowing the beeb they probably didn't, just setting it up as a discussion piece.

There is a danger of places like these becoming de facto tax havens with a wholly parasitic relationship with the countries that actually provide the basis for their prosperity.

ClockworkPenguin:

Sleekit:
tbth there's little reason they shouldn't let peoples form borders along whatever reasonable cultural lines they like within an idealised "Europe".

it's not like it would make that much difference under a "federal" system...outside increasing "local democracy"/"democratic accountability" and making people happy as a result.

the potential re-emergence of, and case for, "city states" in the 21st century...is actually something i've been thinking about for a awhile in the context of the UKs constitutional set up and "London".

The BBC had a piece a while ago discussing the possibility that the rest of the UK might be better off without London, because policy would revert to supporting the manufacturing base which is actually the main industry everywhere except london, and it might reduce the north south divide. Can't remember what they concluded though, knowing the beeb they probably didn't, just setting it up as a discussion piece.

There is a danger of places like these becoming de facto tax havens with a wholly parasitic relationship with the countries that actually provide the basis for their prosperity.

i'm increasingly of the mind that within my "federal" ideal London should perhaps be "a city state" (although i'd abolish "The City of London"s existing status).

so perhaps you'd have Scotland, Northern Ireland, Greater England, London and Wales all having their own parliaments and equal representation at least one level of government ala the US Senate...and "Greater England" would be the biggest (and arguably most important) individual state then.

do the federalism "light" and well enough and one day you could perhaps even convince Ireland to join...

but ye it can never be, and should never be viewed as a means to, escape "redistributive spending" between states that are supposedly allied in such a close political manner for mutual benefit.

this is one of the core things that really bugs me about the Scottish independence debate (on both sides)...call it the "i hope you end a third world country without our money" mentality...because it's a completely fucking puerile and inane to think in such a manner in light of how nations fates are directly interconnected to each other across a border via trade (which ofc everyone still wants to make a living off).

Sleekit:

ClockworkPenguin:

Sleekit:
tbth there's little reason they shouldn't let peoples form borders along whatever reasonable cultural lines they like within an idealised "Europe".

it's not like it would make that much difference under a "federal" system...outside increasing "local democracy"/"democratic accountability" and making people happy as a result.

the potential re-emergence of, and case for, "city states" in the 21st century...is actually something i've been thinking about for a awhile in the context of the UKs constitutional set up and "London".

The BBC had a piece a while ago discussing the possibility that the rest of the UK might be better off without London, because policy would revert to supporting the manufacturing base which is actually the main industry everywhere except london, and it might reduce the north south divide. Can't remember what they concluded though, knowing the beeb they probably didn't, just setting it up as a discussion piece.

There is a danger of places like these becoming de facto tax havens with a wholly parasitic relationship with the countries that actually provide the basis for their prosperity.

i'm increasingly of the mind that within my "federal" ideal London should perhaps be "a city state" (although i'd abolish "The City of London"s existing status).

so perhaps you'd have Scotland, Northern Ireland, Greater England, London and Wales all having their own parliaments and equal representation at least one level of government ala the US Senate...and "Greater England" would be the biggest (and arguably most important) individual state then.

do the federalism "light" and well enough and one day you could perhaps even convince Ireland to join...

but ye it can never be, and should never be viewed as a means to, escape "redistributive spending" between states that are supposedly allied in such a close political manner for mutual benefit.

There's no way in hell Ireland would ever vote to rejoin the UK. They've spent God knows how many centuries trying to shake off English/British rule, they're not going to compromise their independence. We're both better off as friendly neighbours.

BlackStar42:
There's no way in hell Ireland would ever vote to rejoin the UK. They've spent God knows how many centuries trying to shake off English/British rule, they're not going to compromise their independence. We're both better off as friendly neighbours.

forever is a very long time :P...and i think you perhaps underestimate how "sensibly" the top end of a light federal system could potentially be designed.

it makes perfect "common sense" for Ireland to share common defence policy (that's "defence", not "attack"), sea/border patrols, a level of cross state law enforcement, trade regulations and freedom of trade and movement within etc with the rest of these islands as well as say a basic "bill of rights" and/or simplistic over arching constitution...as long as the "states rights" are suitably embedded and respected and most of the finer detail of public policy is left in the hands of the states.

just as it potentially would for an "independent" Scotland...

if we all end up in a "federal Europe" one day...which is a distinct possibly...it's gonna happen in a sense anyway...

Sleekit:

BlackStar42:
There's no way in hell Ireland would ever vote to rejoin the UK. They've spent God knows how many centuries trying to shake off English/British rule, they're not going to compromise their independence. We're both better off as friendly neighbours.

forever is a very long time :P...and i think you perhaps underestimate how "sensibly" the top end of a light federal system could potentially be designed.

it makes perfect "common sense" for Ireland to share common defence policy (that's "defence", not "attack"), sea/border patrols, a level of cross state law enforcement, trade regulations and freedom of trade and movement within etc with the rest of these islands as well as say a basic "bill of rights" and/or simplistic over arching constitution...as long as the "states rights" are suitably embedded and respected and most of the finer detail of public policy is left in the hands of the states.

just as it potentially would for an "independent" Scotland...

if we all end up in a "federal Europe" one day...which is a distinct possibly...it's gonna happen in a sense anyway...

From a pragmatic standpoint, you have a point. From an emotional point of view though, the Irish would never, ever go for it. Before we even think about it, we'd have to sort out the North :P

Sleekit:
Snip

I think they'd say "Let Ireland mind Ireland", but nevermind that now. This is about Venice. How did we even get to Ireland from there? Granted, my parents certainly met (Okay, I doubt my mom was from Venice.), but still!

Venice, Venice, Venice... You're built on stilts and deltas, and you throw your garbage into the canals. You cannot be your own city-state. You need somebody to look after your own interests for you. How would you even support yourself?

(Hetalia joke here)

OT: Gee. I didn't even know Venice wanted separation. I think the Republic of Venice, if formed and not retaken by Italy could be part of the EU and not the UN, but they'd be extremely pressured into joining the UN since pretty much every other country is. I'd imagine an independent Venice would become a sort of tax haven like Switzerland.

It's not a legally binding vote, so even if result is in favour of independence Rome doesn't have to do anything- but it will embolden the Northern League to get a referendum like Scotland has.

As for the other topic that's emerged on this thread: I'm probably leaning in favour of a federal system for the UK. Considering the UK is a state compromised of four nationalities, a federal system would be the most logical political arrangement. The trouble is England has something like 90% of the UK's population, so I think it may be appropriate to divide England into North England, Midlands and South England, and perhaps London as well. This will mean that the North and the Midlands would be empowered to pursue their own policies which will be more in tune with the values and interests of the people living there, and hopefully go some way to resolving the north/south divide.

Nickolai77:
It's not a legally binding vote, so even if result is in favour of independence Rome doesn't have to do anything- but it will embolden the Northern League to get a referendum like Scotland has.

Rarely are declarations of independence legal (barring things like Britain letting go of her colonies, or the Scottish Referedum), until the countries in question are forced to concede the issue. Venice doesn't have much of a military force, so it would be unlikely they could hold off the Italian army. However, they can try to screw Italy financially. They may also hope that the rest of Europe would not look kindly to Italy forcefully occupying/attacking Venice, particularly since Italy doesn't have Russia's nuclear stockpile.

Nickolai77:
It's not a legally binding vote, so even if result is in favour of independence Rome doesn't have to do anything- but it will embolden the Northern League to get a referendum like Scotland has.

As for the other topic that's emerged on this thread: I'm probably leaning in favour of a federal system for the UK. Considering the UK is a state compromised of four nationalities, a federal system would be the most logical political arrangement. The trouble is England has something like 90% of the UK's population, so I think it may be appropriate to divide England into North England, Midlands and South England, and perhaps London as well. This will mean that the North and the Midlands would be empowered to pursue their own policies which will be more in tune with the values and interests of the people living there, and hopefully go some way to resolving the north/south divide.

Why not restore the Heptarchy? You'd have to adjust Northumberland's borders to fit Northern England's modern borders, but I like it from a historical book-ends perspective.

BlackStar42:

Nickolai77:
It's not a legally binding vote, so even if result is in favour of independence Rome doesn't have to do anything- but it will embolden the Northern League to get a referendum like Scotland has.

As for the other topic that's emerged on this thread: I'm probably leaning in favour of a federal system for the UK. Considering the UK is a state compromised of four nationalities, a federal system would be the most logical political arrangement. The trouble is England has something like 90% of the UK's population, so I think it may be appropriate to divide England into North England, Midlands and South England, and perhaps London as well. This will mean that the North and the Midlands would be empowered to pursue their own policies which will be more in tune with the values and interests of the people living there, and hopefully go some way to resolving the north/south divide.

Why not restore the Heptarchy? You'd have to adjust Northumberland's borders to fit Northern England's modern borders, but I like it from a historical book-ends perspective.

I'm aware that the North/Midlands/South England division does, interestingly, roughly correspond to the old kingdoms of Northumberland, Mercia and Wessex. I wouldn't know if this three part division of England is due to the legacy of those kingdoms, or merely due to the geography of England which could favour such a division.

If they reinstate the title of Doge, and hold elections were only decendents of the patrician families can get elected to the office..

I'm all for it.

Movitz:
It the reinstate the title of Doge, and hold elections were only decendents of the patrician families can get elected to the office..

I'm all for it.

Do you have a source for that? I haven't been able to find almost any news on the current plans Venice has if it can become a nation.

Not G. Ivingname:

Movitz:
It the reinstate the title of Doge, and hold elections were only decendents of the patrician families can get elected to the office..

I'm all for it.

Do you have a source for that? I haven't been able to find almost any news on the current plans Venice has if it can become a nation.

In our current political climate, I doubt very much that even if Venice did declare independence that they would restore the republic of old. It would probably be your average, european republic.

Doesn't stop me from hoping.

This talk about a military situation and whether Venice can fight the Italian army is all utter nonsense; there is no way that any democratic country within the EU in the 21st century is going to forcibly subjugate people. Not. Going. To. Happen. Rome can insist all it likes that it won't recognise the result of the referendum, but if people don't want to be governed by them, then they won't be.

Doesn't surprise me this is happening. Venice has only been a part of Italy for a relatively short time, and only stopped being an independent republic by force. On top of that the region contributes more taxes than it receives back.

I don't see why not. Historically Venice has to been culturally and Ethnically diverse from the rest of Italy. Then again, the same could be said for many groups who form the larger countries in Europe.

The question is whether they can survive alone. Venice is a pretty wealthy place and shouldn't have any problems subsiding by itself.

The European Union would be foolish to try to take a hard stance against Venice. Of course, that didn't stop them from threatening Scotland by saying that they wouldn't allow any independent Scottish government to join the E.U, so who knowns?

MasterOfHisOwnDomain:
This talk about a military situation and whether Venice can fight the Italian army is all utter nonsense; there is no way that any democratic country within the EU in the 21st century is going to forcibly subjugate people. Not. Going. To. Happen. Rome can insist all it likes that it won't recognise the result of the referendum, but if people don't want to be governed by them, then they won't be.

Doesn't surprise me this is happening. Venice has only been a part of Italy for a relatively short time, and only stopped being an independent republic by force. On top of that the region contributes more taxes than it receives back.

I do wonder how it would play out in that case.

"We do not accept their declaration of independence. This outrage shall not be tolerated. We will send VERY harshly worded letters to them until they comply.

We also are going to dislike their facebook page."

Also think it needs to be said that this isn't just Venice as in the city, it's the entire region of Veneto, which accounts for almost 5 million people (Venice contributes less than 10 per cent of this). So images of this relatively small, rapidly sinking city going it alone against Italy is not true.

Ya, let's be honest here, a 'united italy' didn't occur until the end of the 1800's and then it was only really united by force of arms.

The different cultural backgrounds in Italy are pretty stark. Theirs a lot of divides there by ancient city-regions, that still run strong. My own grandfather was an Italian he and thought the same way, to a point, though he considered himself staunchly American.

People have the right to break away from the larger whole if they don't feel they are adequately represented or treated well under the whole. The fact that anyone other then Italy wouldn't recognize this right is pretty disgusting.

Not G. Ivingname:

MasterOfHisOwnDomain:
This talk about a military situation and whether Venice can fight the Italian army is all utter nonsense; there is no way that any democratic country within the EU in the 21st century is going to forcibly subjugate people. Not. Going. To. Happen. Rome can insist all it likes that it won't recognise the result of the referendum, but if people don't want to be governed by them, then they won't be.

Doesn't surprise me this is happening. Venice has only been a part of Italy for a relatively short time, and only stopped being an independent republic by force. On top of that the region contributes more taxes than it receives back.

I do wonder how it would play out in that case.

"We do not accept their declaration of independence. This outrage shall not be tolerated. We will send VERY harshly worded letters to them until they comply.

We also are going to dislike their facebook page."

Thanks for sharing this useful information.

Does make you wonder how Europe would look if we all reverted back to the old city states.

Not sure if Onion or actual news...

SmashLovesTitanQuest:
Does make you wonder how Europe would look if we all reverted back to the old city states.

Holy Roman Empire v2 I bet. And Polandball comics would get real funny, too. Large political entities, especially ones artificially made, never last forever.

Vegosiux:

SmashLovesTitanQuest:
Does make you wonder how Europe would look if we all reverted back to the old city states.

Holy Roman Empire v2 I bet. And Polandball comics would get real funny, too. Large political entities, especially ones artificially made, never last forever.

Did you mean a second Holy Roman Empire, or artificially created countries like Yugoslavia and in light of this piece of news, Italy?

Frission:

Vegosiux:

SmashLovesTitanQuest:
Does make you wonder how Europe would look if we all reverted back to the old city states.

Holy Roman Empire v2 I bet. And Polandball comics would get real funny, too. Large political entities, especially ones artificially made, never last forever.

Did you mean a second Holy Roman Empire, or artificially created countries like Yugoslavia and in light of this piece of news, Italy?

I meant a second Holy Roman Empire, yes. I mean, it was a large political entity, even if not a unified country itself (seeing as nobody got to Renovatio with the reforms...)

But yes, I meant the second bit too. And it's not just Italy. There are separatist interests in regions like Corsica, Brittany, Basque, you've got Flemish nationalists, Scotland is on the way out of Great Britain, Russia itself is likely to have to deal with separatists in the far East as well.

It all seems a bit cyclical. Integration, breaking apart, integration, breaking apart...and it seems as if without a bit of an ironfisted central government, large countries/federations simply fall apart.

Vegosiux:

Frission:

Vegosiux:

Holy Roman Empire v2 I bet. And Polandball comics would get real funny, too. Large political entities, especially ones artificially made, never last forever.

Did you mean a second Holy Roman Empire, or artificially created countries like Yugoslavia and in light of this piece of news, Italy?

I meant a second Holy Roman Empire, yes. I mean, it was a large political entity, even if not a unified country itself (seeing as nobody got to Renovatio with the reforms...)

But yes, I meant the second bit too. And it's not just Italy. There are separatist interests in regions like Corsica, Brittany, Basque, you've got Flemish nationalists, Scotland is on the way out of Great Britain, Russia itself is likely to have to deal with separatists in the far East as well.

It all seems a bit cyclical. Integration, breaking apart, integration, breaking apart...and it seems as if without a bit of an ironfisted central government, large countries/federations simply fall apart.

I'm not really qualified to speak about any of the other movements but the Breton. The Breton used to have a pretty strong organized independence movement. They stopped however when they accidentally killed someone (an act that some of the more paranoid Breton thought was actually a setup by the French Government, but I digress). The general idea behind it was that Brittany used to be far richer before being annexed into France and that they have their own cultural identity. Nowadays the only thing that's keeping them with France is due to their dependence to France (like with the Welsh).

Other regions are probably operating under the same logic. They have their cultural identity and the population feels marginalized, or otherwise believe they would be better off alone. The period in time we live in also encourages these calls for Independence.

While I partly agree with your idea of the cyclical nature of big federations falling apart, I don't think it's something that's something that is inherently going to happen. I think a key factor in keeping countries together is social cohesion, and the problem with social cohesion is that it can be strained by several factors, whether it's war or political and economic stresses on the populace.
From what I learned Holy Roman Empire's death was caused due to three factors: their inability to reform, the death and destruction that was caused in the Thirty year war (which wad exacerbated with the Peace of Westphalia which made them lose alot of members) and the final nail in the coffin was the Rise of Napoleon.

Any institution will collapse when subjected to enough stress and nothing is truly permanent. However, it doesn't mean that breaking apart is a foregone conclusion.

If we really went down to it, the Breton themselves could divide themselves back into the original clans, like the Bigoudins, the Glasique and such. Any nations could break down into it's most minute constituents, but they don't due to the economic benefits of a union, the threat of a common enemy or any other reason. Large nations seem to fall apart so often, because their sheer size seeds their own destruction by creating internal and external problems. That can take time however and the Holy Roman Empire did exist for almost 900 years under threats like the Ottomans, the French and the investiture controversy.

OT: Sorry if I sort of ranted on. I agree, but I didn't think it was a simple as countries just forming and breaking apart.

Frission:

OT: Sorry if I sort of ranted on. I agree, but I didn't think it was a simple as countries just forming and breaking apart.

Not at all, it was some nice insight there. I'm a bit pressed for time lately, so I do appreciate a more elaborate input from others.

 

Reply to Thread

This thread is locked