The future of Men and Families
We should try to turn back the clock
10.4% (8)
10.4% (8)
We should not turn back the clock
63.6% (49)
63.6% (49)
Other
26% (20)
26% (20)
Want to vote? Register now or Sign Up with Facebook
Poll: The Manosphere and the future of Men and Families

 Pages PREV 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 NEXT
 

RunsWithBears:
The clock doesn't need to be turned back.
Unhealthy male/female relationships create an unhealthy society. Unhealthy societies lose the race against darwinism.
The clock will turn back itself.

That isn't what Darwinism is. Darwinism is how an animal that is most well suited to its environment will be more likely to pass on its genes. It isn't survival of the fittest. You shot your own argument in the foot with your lack of understanding of what Darwinism really is. Darwin never applied his concepts to humans either.

erttheking:

RunsWithBears:
The clock doesn't need to be turned back.
Unhealthy male/female relationships create an unhealthy society. Unhealthy societies lose the race against darwinism.
The clock will turn back itself.

That isn't what Darwinism is. Darwinism is how an animal that is most well suited to its environment will be more likely to pass on its genes. It isn't survival of the fittest. You shot your own argument in the foot with your lack of understanding of what Darwinism really is. Darwin never applied his concepts to humans either.

My argument is how a society that isn't well-suited for it's environment will be eaten.
And whether Darwin applied it to humans or not, I am doing that right now.
If you want to get stuck on semantics, be my guest, but I am not interested that.

RunsWithBears:

erttheking:

RunsWithBears:
The clock doesn't need to be turned back.
Unhealthy male/female relationships create an unhealthy society. Unhealthy societies lose the race against darwinism.
The clock will turn back itself.

That isn't what Darwinism is. Darwinism is how an animal that is most well suited to its environment will be more likely to pass on its genes. It isn't survival of the fittest. You shot your own argument in the foot with your lack of understanding of what Darwinism really is. Darwin never applied his concepts to humans either.

My argument is how a society that isn't well-suited for it's environment will be eaten.
And whether Darwin applied it to humans or not, I am doing that right now.
If you want to get stuck on semantics, be my guest, but I am not interested that.

An argument that you do nothing to back up. How is turning the clock back "better."

So what? You're just cherry picking the parts of his studies that suit you?

More like I'm pointing out that the core principle you base your argument on is fundamentally flawed.

Darwinism really shouldn't be applied to societies, for more than one reason.

RunsWithBears:

My argument is how a society that isn't well-suited for it's environment will be eaten.
And whether Darwin applied it to humans or not, I am doing that right now.
If you want to get stuck on semantics, be my guest, but I am not interested that.

For the entirety of human civilization, in the context of humanity, "well-suited for it's environment" generally means voluntary cooperation and compassion.

Or being strong enough of enforce rigid societal roles, but that's generally bad for lots of individual people, so I'm going to go on record supporting the former.

Societies can copy each other and steal desirable traits. They do that all the time. Darwinism doesn't work in context of societies at all.

Sometimes it is applied to ideas and even memes. Spread of ideas, competing ideas and mememic mutation do allow for some parallels but those vanish very soon for a bigger picture with cultures and societies.

And that is before we get into history of trying to fit Darwinism to society.

RunsWithBears:

My argument is how a society that isn't well-suited for it's environment will be eaten.
And whether Darwin applied it to humans or not, I am doing that right now.

Grand. What examples do you have of societies that have been "eaten" due to "unhealthy male/female relationships"?

RunsWithBears:

erttheking:

RunsWithBears:
The clock doesn't need to be turned back.
Unhealthy male/female relationships create an unhealthy society. Unhealthy societies lose the race against darwinism.
The clock will turn back itself.

That isn't what Darwinism is. Darwinism is how an animal that is most well suited to its environment will be more likely to pass on its genes. It isn't survival of the fittest. You shot your own argument in the foot with your lack of understanding of what Darwinism really is. Darwin never applied his concepts to humans either.

My argument is how a society that isn't well-suited for it's environment will be eaten.
And whether Darwin applied it to humans or not, I am doing that right now.
If you want to get stuck on semantics, be my guest, but I am not interested that.

Isn't that just a prettier way of saying the whole "if white people have less kids they will eventually be overpopulated by dirty minorities that have more" spiel that places like stormfront pumps out?

undeadsuitor:

Isn't that just a prettier way of saying the whole "if white people have less kids they will eventually be overpopulated by dirty minorities that have more" spiel that places like stormfront pumps out?

I remember encountering someone who sounded *exactly* like this... I was half tempted pointing out how humans don't breed with other humans of their arbitrary racial categorization. More than likely people will end up like me. Mum's Filo, dad's WASP. Though I have the feeling that idea of "racial blending" through mass global migrations will happen before 'Whites dying out' makes them even more uncomfortable.

Seriously ... why is it always the fact that "Whites are being outbred" spiel?

Surely the biggest danger to race is half-breeds like me? W/e ... race is race. People should embrace how the gene pool has rapidly widened.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/people-born-to-genetically-diverse-parents-more-likely-to-be-taller-and-more-intelligent-says-study-10358706.html

Speaking of Darwinism in the technocratic future... maybe we'll be racist towards those of shallower genetic diversity? Half-breeds are the master race. In short, in order to have taller, stronger, smarter people we should not only encourage immigration but also encourage outbreeding to rapidly increase genetic diversity.

Traditional eugenics can eat a dick ... what we need is reverse eugenics-eugenics.

(Edit) FYI, I'm being facetious, but you know ... genetic diversity is a good thing. Not sure what triggers inside the heads of these people.

Why would i want to try and establish a romantic relationship? The work and stress and danger involved outweighs the potential positives so overwhelmingly that i don't see why anyone does it, apart from social pressure and hormones.

I mean let's look at how much bullshit would have to go into me, as a straight man in America, that's my situation, to establish a romantic relationship with a woman. First we have finding a woman to have a relationship with. This involves 1 of 2 things. Bars or internet dating. Internet dating is 99% fake women and spam trying to sell cam sites, so that's out. Dating in bars, from what I've heard, goes something like this. I go in, pay a lot of money for shitty drinks to hang out in a smelly bar for hours. I try to initiate romantic contact with women, and get treated as badly as is socially acceptable for any human to treat another human being without sparking social retribution. The way men looking for relations with women are treated is so fucked up in American society. There's fake numbers for radio shows to humiliate men just looking for human contact, there's the "is this guy bugging you" guys, to add the threat of physical violence to the mix, more so anyway than a woman attacking me for daring to talk to her, aka the cheeky slap, along with just nasty women who think it's funny to put down and hurt men looking for human connection. So assuming that i get through this sea of financial, emotional, and potentially physical misery, and i find someone who seems decent and isn't horrible to me, then there's dating, which involves me prostrating myself to keep her happy, slowly dissolving away anything in my life that made me happy to become a better personal manservant, which is what is expected of me by society as a boyfriend. I am not to expect any personal benefits, apart from the great honor of serving the female gender, whoop de do. I'm expected to go where she wants to go, do what she wants to do, and grin and bear it all, while of course, paying for everything, because that's what a gentleman does after all, and if i don't, then we break up and it was all a waste of time. I'm never suppose to push to do things i want to do. Oh, and god forbid i want to have sex with an attractive woman. Even me bringing up my desire for sex in a relationship as a man who wants to have sex with a woman probably makes me a creeper pervert asshole piece of shit to many of you, and to society in general, so it's set to a small chance of maybe sex once a year. Oh, and of course if i'm in a relationship, i can't masturbate to porn, because as a boyfreind, my sexuality is expected to be owned by my girlfriend, who from what i've heard, will generally just lock it in a box, throw it in the closet, and forget about it, so that's real fucking neato. Then of course, there's the rare sex itself, where consent is pretty much impossible to determine without fucking the whole thing up, because civility is apparently a huge turn off, and despite rape rightly universally hated, it's also apparently necessary to be aggressive in order to turn women on, which for a passive person like myself, who would much rather sift through suitors myself rather than go out and find someone, is a bizarre and fucked up world of half-consents and mood reading that scares and confuses me. And of course, if i misread the facial expression by a micrometer, that means i'm now a rapist and my life is over, which can happen even after she's already consented, so the whole process of determining consent like the most sexually frustrated detective, and apparently needing to read whether or not it's still consented throughout the entire act, since apparently a woman changing her mind and not telling you halfway through makes you a rapist. If it were up to me, people would just walk up to each other and go "you want to fuck?" and the person would go "yes" or "no" and that would be that. I hate and am frustrated by the stupid bullshit social games required for courtship in western society. Even assuming most women are well-meaning and out for the same reason i am, the fact that they hold that proverbial gun just adds such a level of stress to the whole thing. So assuming i get through that shit, i'll try to stave off the inevitable question of marriage like a rabid lion on an ever-fraying rope until inevitably it all caves in, meanwhile my girlfriend slowly erodes anything that use to give me joy in my life, like my hobbies and friends, and as has been been already said by many in this thread, if you think a boyfriend is low on the social totem-poll, a husband is right at the bottom in the dirt. Husbands are treated really bad all across the board, legally, socially, financially, emotionally, it's all shit, and then you live that shit until you die.

So why would i even start? Why would i try to establish a romantic relationship, or a family? What exactly is there to be gained? From my admittedly inexperienced point of view, it seems like the better option is to just chill at home playing video games, watching tv, and masturbating in a small, affordable apartment with lots of free time and disposable income. Is that not the objectively better way to live life? Am i missing something here?

9tailedflame:
Why would i want to try and establish a romantic relationship? The work and stress and danger involved outweighs the potential positives so overwhelmingly that i don't see why anyone does it, apart from social pressure and hormones.

I mean let's look at how much bullshit would have to go into me, as a straight man in America, that's my situation, to establish a romantic relationship with a woman. First we have finding a woman to have a relationship with. This involves 1 of 2 things. Bars or internet dating. Internet dating is 99% fake women and spam trying to sell cam sites, so that's out. Dating in bars, from what I've heard, goes something like this. I go in, pay a lot of money for shitty drinks to hang out in a smelly bar for hours. I try to initiate romantic contact with women, and get treated as badly as is socially acceptable for any human to treat another human being without sparking social retribution. The way men looking for relations with women are treated is so fucked up in American society. There's fake numbers for radio shows to humiliate men just looking for human contact, there's the "is this guy bugging you" guys, to add the threat of physical violence to the mix, more so anyway than a woman attacking me for daring to talk to her, aka the cheeky slap, along with just nasty women who think it's funny to put down and hurt men looking for human connection. So assuming that i get through this sea of financial, emotional, and potentially physical misery, and i find someone who seems decent and isn't horrible to me, then there's dating, which involves me prostrating myself to keep her happy, slowly dissolving away anything in my life that made me happy to become a better personal manservant, which is what is expected of me by society as a boyfriend. I am not to expect any personal benefits, apart from the great honor of serving the female gender, whoop de do. I'm expected to go where she wants to go, do what she wants to do, and grin and bear it all, while of course, paying for everything, because that's what a gentleman does after all, and if i don't, then we break up and it was all a waste of time. I'm never suppose to push to do things i want to do. Oh, and god forbid i want to have sex with an attractive woman. Even me bringing up my desire for sex in a relationship as a man who wants to have sex with a woman probably makes me a creeper pervert asshole piece of shit to many of you, and to society in general, so it's set to a small chance of maybe sex once a year. Oh, and of course if i'm in a relationship, i can't masturbate to porn, because as a boyfreind, my sexuality is expected to be owned by my girlfriend, who from what i've heard, will generally just lock it in a box, throw it in the closet, and forget about it, so that's real fucking neato. Then of course, there's the rare sex itself, where consent is pretty much impossible to determine without fucking the whole thing up, because civility is apparently a huge turn off, and despite rape rightly universally hated, it's also apparently necessary to be aggressive in order to turn women on, which for a passive person like myself, who would much rather sift through suitors myself rather than go out and find someone, is a bizarre and fucked up world of half-consents and mood reading that scares and confuses me. And of course, if i misread the facial expression by a micrometer, that means i'm now a rapist and my life is over, which can happen even after she's already consented, so the whole process of determining consent like the most sexually frustrated detective, and apparently needing to read whether or not it's still consented throughout the entire act, since apparently a woman changing her mind and not telling you halfway through makes you a rapist. If it were up to me, people would just walk up to each other and go "you want to fuck?" and the person would go "yes" or "no" and that would be that. I hate and am frustrated by the stupid bullshit social games required for courtship in western society. Even assuming most women are well-meaning and out for the same reason i am, the fact that they hold that proverbial gun just adds such a level of stress to the whole thing. So assuming i get through that shit, i'll try to stave off the inevitable question of marriage like a rabid lion on an ever-fraying rope until inevitably it all caves in, meanwhile my girlfriend slowly erodes anything that use to give me joy in my life, like my hobbies and friends, and as has been been already said by many in this thread, if you think a boyfriend is low on the social totem-poll, a husband is right at the bottom in the dirt. Husbands are treated really bad all across the board, legally, socially, financially, emotionally, it's all shit, and then you live that shit until you die.

So why would i even start? Why would i try to establish a romantic relationship, or a family? What exactly is there to be gained? From my admittedly inexperienced point of view, it seems like the better option is to just chill at home playing video games, watching tv, and masturbating in a small, affordable apartment with lots of free time and disposable income. Is that not the objectively better way to live life? Am i missing something here?

Do you have any friends? Do you like having friends? Dont you wish you had a friend you also had sex with?

Thats what a good romantic partner should be. A best friend + attraction. Love isnt supposed to be a job, even if most people treat it like one.

The problem is when people dont do that. If you have to give up who you are to be in a relationship, it is a bad relationship.

9tailedflame:
Am i missing something here?

image
Uh... let's just say "no". If that's the way you think of dating/marriage, you should definitely not be doing it.
Now, I'll just get back to eroding all the joy in my fiance's life.

Saelune:

9tailedflame:
Why would i want to try and establish a romantic relationship? The work and stress and danger involved outweighs the potential positives so overwhelmingly that i don't see why anyone does it, apart from social pressure and hormones.

I mean let's look at how much bullshit would have to go into me, as a straight man in America, that's my situation, to establish a romantic relationship with a woman. First we have finding a woman to have a relationship with. This involves 1 of 2 things. Bars or internet dating. Internet dating is 99% fake women and spam trying to sell cam sites, so that's out. Dating in bars, from what I've heard, goes something like this. I go in, pay a lot of money for shitty drinks to hang out in a smelly bar for hours. I try to initiate romantic contact with women, and get treated as badly as is socially acceptable for any human to treat another human being without sparking social retribution. The way men looking for relations with women are treated is so fucked up in American society. There's fake numbers for radio shows to humiliate men just looking for human contact, there's the "is this guy bugging you" guys, to add the threat of physical violence to the mix, more so anyway than a woman attacking me for daring to talk to her, aka the cheeky slap, along with just nasty women who think it's funny to put down and hurt men looking for human connection. So assuming that i get through this sea of financial, emotional, and potentially physical misery, and i find someone who seems decent and isn't horrible to me, then there's dating, which involves me prostrating myself to keep her happy, slowly dissolving away anything in my life that made me happy to become a better personal manservant, which is what is expected of me by society as a boyfriend. I am not to expect any personal benefits, apart from the great honor of serving the female gender, whoop de do. I'm expected to go where she wants to go, do what she wants to do, and grin and bear it all, while of course, paying for everything, because that's what a gentleman does after all, and if i don't, then we break up and it was all a waste of time. I'm never suppose to push to do things i want to do. Oh, and god forbid i want to have sex with an attractive woman. Even me bringing up my desire for sex in a relationship as a man who wants to have sex with a woman probably makes me a creeper pervert asshole piece of shit to many of you, and to society in general, so it's set to a small chance of maybe sex once a year. Oh, and of course if i'm in a relationship, i can't masturbate to porn, because as a boyfreind, my sexuality is expected to be owned by my girlfriend, who from what i've heard, will generally just lock it in a box, throw it in the closet, and forget about it, so that's real fucking neato. Then of course, there's the rare sex itself, where consent is pretty much impossible to determine without fucking the whole thing up, because civility is apparently a huge turn off, and despite rape rightly universally hated, it's also apparently necessary to be aggressive in order to turn women on, which for a passive person like myself, who would much rather sift through suitors myself rather than go out and find someone, is a bizarre and fucked up world of half-consents and mood reading that scares and confuses me. And of course, if i misread the facial expression by a micrometer, that means i'm now a rapist and my life is over, which can happen even after she's already consented, so the whole process of determining consent like the most sexually frustrated detective, and apparently needing to read whether or not it's still consented throughout the entire act, since apparently a woman changing her mind and not telling you halfway through makes you a rapist. If it were up to me, people would just walk up to each other and go "you want to fuck?" and the person would go "yes" or "no" and that would be that. I hate and am frustrated by the stupid bullshit social games required for courtship in western society. Even assuming most women are well-meaning and out for the same reason i am, the fact that they hold that proverbial gun just adds such a level of stress to the whole thing. So assuming i get through that shit, i'll try to stave off the inevitable question of marriage like a rabid lion on an ever-fraying rope until inevitably it all caves in, meanwhile my girlfriend slowly erodes anything that use to give me joy in my life, like my hobbies and friends, and as has been been already said by many in this thread, if you think a boyfriend is low on the social totem-poll, a husband is right at the bottom in the dirt. Husbands are treated really bad all across the board, legally, socially, financially, emotionally, it's all shit, and then you live that shit until you die.

So why would i even start? Why would i try to establish a romantic relationship, or a family? What exactly is there to be gained? From my admittedly inexperienced point of view, it seems like the better option is to just chill at home playing video games, watching tv, and masturbating in a small, affordable apartment with lots of free time and disposable income. Is that not the objectively better way to live life? Am i missing something here?

Do you have any friends? Do you like having friends? Dont you wish you had a friend you also had sex with?

Thats what a good romantic partner should be. A best friend + attraction. Love isnt supposed to be a job, even if most people treat it like one.

The problem is when people dont do that. If you have to give up who you are to be in a relationship, it is a bad relationship.

But if you establish a friendly, chummy relationship at the beginning, then you're not longer considered romantically viable, that's what's known as the friendzone, isn't it? I mean look at any romantic movie in america ever. The couple aren't friends, they're enemies for like 90% of the movie. Our culture is one that dictates that friendship and romanticism don't mix.

9tailedflame:

But if you establish a friendly, chummy relationship at the beginning, then you're not longer considered romantically viable, that's what's known as the friendzone, isn't it? I mean look at any romantic movie in america ever. The couple aren't friends, they're enemies for like 90% of the movie. Our culture is one that dictates that friendship and romanticism don't mix.

Just because most people do things wrong doesnt mean you should. I do agree alot of people fall into these societal pressures of how you must act even when they are counter to how people would actually like, but you arent the only person who finds them constricting. Plenty of men AND women do, and people just need to be open to breaking them when doing so would benefit eachother rather than hurt. Love shouldnt be a game, nor a competition.

Saelune:

9tailedflame:

But if you establish a friendly, chummy relationship at the beginning, then you're not longer considered romantically viable, that's what's known as the friendzone, isn't it? I mean look at any romantic movie in america ever. The couple aren't friends, they're enemies for like 90% of the movie. Our culture is one that dictates that friendship and romanticism don't mix.

Just because most people do things wrong doesnt mean you should. I do agree alot of people fall into these societal pressures of how you must act even when they are counter to how people would actually like, but you arent the only person who finds them constricting. Plenty of men AND women do, and people just need to be open to breaking them when doing so would benefit eachother rather than hurt. Love shouldnt be a game, nor a competition.

God i hate western romantic culture. I don't even get the purpose of it, why did we do this to ourselves? What's to be gained?

9tailedflame:

Saelune:

9tailedflame:

But if you establish a friendly, chummy relationship at the beginning, then you're not longer considered romantically viable, that's what's known as the friendzone, isn't it? I mean look at any romantic movie in america ever. The couple aren't friends, they're enemies for like 90% of the movie. Our culture is one that dictates that friendship and romanticism don't mix.

Just because most people do things wrong doesnt mean you should. I do agree alot of people fall into these societal pressures of how you must act even when they are counter to how people would actually like, but you arent the only person who finds them constricting. Plenty of men AND women do, and people just need to be open to breaking them when doing so would benefit eachother rather than hurt. Love shouldnt be a game, nor a competition.

God i hate western romantic culture. I don't even get the purpose of it, why did we do this to ourselves? What's to be gained?

Humanity in general likes to impose itself on everyone else. Not just "western romantic culture", but that is getting into a bigger discussion.

9tailedflame:

But if you establish a friendly, chummy relationship at the beginning, then you're not longer considered romantically viable, that's what's known as the friendzone, isn't it? I mean look at any romantic movie in america ever. The couple aren't friends, they're enemies for like 90% of the movie. Our culture is one that dictates that friendship and romanticism don't mix.

No, the friendzone isn't real. It's made up.
What it describes is when you want to bang your friend but your friend doesn't want to bang you back.
What it describes is rejection, which is perfectly normal in dating. I don't know anybody who isn't friends with their significant other. And most of them met by being friends first.

Phasmal:

9tailedflame:

But if you establish a friendly, chummy relationship at the beginning, then you're not longer considered romantically viable, that's what's known as the friendzone, isn't it? I mean look at any romantic movie in america ever. The couple aren't friends, they're enemies for like 90% of the movie. Our culture is one that dictates that friendship and romanticism don't mix.

No, the friendzone isn't real. It's made up.
What it describes is when you want to bang your friend but your friend doesn't want to bang you back.
What it describes is rejection, which is perfectly normal in dating. I don't know anybody who isn't friends with their significant other. And most of them met by being friends first.

Yeah, this. I have had several female friends I fell in love with who didn't love me back. My reaction wasn't to go 'aw man why did she friendzone me :(' it was 'She doesn't like me back it sucks but isn't anyone's fault.'

I do know some couples that started their relationship with just having sex and it developed into something serious when they actually learned to know each other but most people were friends first.
Honestly, romantic movies are not realistic don't go to them for love advice.

The only reason you could say is that 'romance and friendship don't mix' is with the expectations of some people (mostly guys who complain about the friendzone) that if they become close to someone they're attracted to they're entitled to sex/relationship. Friendship can develop into romance, but if people are afraid their friends will feel entitled to that, well, they might be hesitant to develop close friendships with people who carry that risk.

9tailedflame:
Why would i want to try and establish a romantic relationship? The work and stress and danger involved outweighs the potential positives so overwhelmingly that i don't see why anyone does it, apart from social pressure and hormones.

I mean let's look at how much bullshit would have to go into me, as a straight man in America, that's my situation, to establish a romantic relationship with a woman. First we have finding a woman to have a relationship with. This involves 1 of 2 things. Bars or internet dating. Internet dating is 99% fake women and spam trying to sell cam sites, so that's out. Dating in bars, from what I've heard, goes something like this. I go in, pay a lot of money for shitty drinks to hang out in a smelly bar for hours. I try to initiate romantic contact with women, and get treated as badly as is socially acceptable for any human to treat another human being without sparking social retribution. The way men looking for relations with women are treated is so fucked up in American society. There's fake numbers for radio shows to humiliate men just looking for human contact, there's the "is this guy bugging you" guys, to add the threat of physical violence to the mix, more so anyway than a woman attacking me for daring to talk to her, aka the cheeky slap, along with just nasty women who think it's funny to put down and hurt men looking for human connection. So assuming that i get through this sea of financial, emotional, and potentially physical misery, and i find someone who seems decent and isn't horrible to me, then there's dating, which involves me prostrating myself to keep her happy, slowly dissolving away anything in my life that made me happy to become a better personal manservant, which is what is expected of me by society as a boyfriend. I am not to expect any personal benefits, apart from the great honor of serving the female gender, whoop de do. I'm expected to go where she wants to go, do what she wants to do, and grin and bear it all, while of course, paying for everything, because that's what a gentleman does after all, and if i don't, then we break up and it was all a waste of time. I'm never suppose to push to do things i want to do. Oh, and god forbid i want to have sex with an attractive woman. Even me bringing up my desire for sex in a relationship as a man who wants to have sex with a woman probably makes me a creeper pervert asshole piece of shit to many of you, and to society in general, so it's set to a small chance of maybe sex once a year. Oh, and of course if i'm in a relationship, i can't masturbate to porn, because as a boyfreind, my sexuality is expected to be owned by my girlfriend, who from what i've heard, will generally just lock it in a box, throw it in the closet, and forget about it, so that's real fucking neato. Then of course, there's the rare sex itself, where consent is pretty much impossible to determine without fucking the whole thing up, because civility is apparently a huge turn off, and despite rape rightly universally hated, it's also apparently necessary to be aggressive in order to turn women on, which for a passive person like myself, who would much rather sift through suitors myself rather than go out and find someone, is a bizarre and fucked up world of half-consents and mood reading that scares and confuses me. And of course, if i misread the facial expression by a micrometer, that means i'm now a rapist and my life is over, which can happen even after she's already consented, so the whole process of determining consent like the most sexually frustrated detective, and apparently needing to read whether or not it's still consented throughout the entire act, since apparently a woman changing her mind and not telling you halfway through makes you a rapist. If it were up to me, people would just walk up to each other and go "you want to fuck?" and the person would go "yes" or "no" and that would be that. I hate and am frustrated by the stupid bullshit social games required for courtship in western society. Even assuming most women are well-meaning and out for the same reason i am, the fact that they hold that proverbial gun just adds such a level of stress to the whole thing. So assuming i get through that shit, i'll try to stave off the inevitable question of marriage like a rabid lion on an ever-fraying rope until inevitably it all caves in, meanwhile my girlfriend slowly erodes anything that use to give me joy in my life, like my hobbies and friends, and as has been been already said by many in this thread, if you think a boyfriend is low on the social totem-poll, a husband is right at the bottom in the dirt. Husbands are treated really bad all across the board, legally, socially, financially, emotionally, it's all shit, and then you live that shit until you die.

So why would i even start? Why would i try to establish a romantic relationship, or a family? What exactly is there to be gained? From my admittedly inexperienced point of view, it seems like the better option is to just chill at home playing video games, watching tv, and masturbating in a small, affordable apartment with lots of free time and disposable income. Is that not the objectively better way to live life? Am i missing something here?

Yes, you are missing Asian women

9tailedflame:
Why would i want to try and establish a romantic relationship?

Man, I'm sorry you feel this way about pursuing a relationship. If you don't mind, I'd suggest just not thinking about it this much- especially not online. When I was feeling particularly down about dating in the past, what made me feel better was getting out and meeting people through local events. I attended some live roleplay, some actual plays, concerts- and I don't really like music.

Or rather, I didn't like music all that much, but I was trying to broaden my horizons by trying new things. If you set out to try things just to find love, you'll be miserable more often than not. But if you genuinely try to better yourself, and enjoy life as it happens, then not only will you look back on those events as being positive, that satisfaction and confidence will show.

Lieju:
The only reason you could say is that 'romance and friendship don't mix' is with the expectations of some people (mostly guys who complain about the friendzone) that if they become close to someone they're attracted to they're entitled to sex/relationship.

I'd just like to add that the idea that it's mostly men isn't necessarily true, but in my experience they certainly are the more vocal about feeling like this.

9tailedflame:
So why would i even start? Why would i try to establish a romantic relationship, or a family? What exactly is there to be gained? From my admittedly inexperienced point of view, it seems like the better option is to just chill at home playing video games, watching tv, and masturbating in a small, affordable apartment with lots of free time and disposable income. Is that not the objectively better way to live life? Am i missing something here?

Yeah, you've got a rather warped view of relationships, in particular the idea that women hold some terrible power over men that they will inevitably use maliciously for their own reasons.

Having said that, there are plenty of good reasons to avoid relationships, and in particular to start a family, that you've not touched on.

undeadsuitor:

Isn't that just a prettier way of saying the whole "if white people have less kids they will eventually be overpopulated by dirty minorities that have more" spiel that places like stormfront pumps out?

Who mentioned white people or minorities? You're just putting words in my mouth at this point.

There's something horribly wrong with male/female relationships in western society. Look at feminism, look at MGTOW. Look at the rates of single-motherhood and the effects it has on children. How long before these kind of trends start undermining our society?

That is what I am getting at.

I cannot stand the ridiculous borderline alt-right movement that is based on the idiotic notion that men are somehow being attacked or discriminated against. Literally every guy I've ever heard preach this lunacy has been the kind of person that not only straight women dislike, but everyone other than his fellow psychopaths also disliked.

It's just a bunch of man children who grew up watching MTV Cribs and are now upset that they aren't living in a 20 bedroom mansion and are mad that women have their own opinions and aspirations. They think that all they should have to do to attract a woman is simply exist.

Their terrible personality and astounding lack of intelligence drives most women away, but instead of working to better themselves, they blame the women through a variety of completely delusional rationales.

These lunatics bring up feminism 10 times more often than actual feminists do. Go scroll through the comments on a youtube video that isn't sociopolitical in any way but has at least one woman in it and you'll find some future Ted Bundy ranting about feminism.

9tailedflame:

But if you establish a friendly, chummy relationship at the beginning, then you're not longer considered romantically viable, that's what's known as the friendzone, isn't it? I mean look at any romantic movie in america ever. The couple aren't friends, they're enemies for like 90% of the movie. Our culture is one that dictates that friendship and romanticism don't mix.

Sorry to jump in here but this friendzone is something that we are treating as this near-insurmountable 90-foot-kaiju-proof-wall when it is more like 2 feet of chicken-wire. There have been several girls (so all of them really) that have been friends and acquaintances that have turned into relationships (or sometimes just mutually-attempted-relationships with sex). It is soooo much easier to get things started with someone whom you are already comfortable talking and laughing about things with.

RunsWithBears:

undeadsuitor:

Isn't that just a prettier way of saying the whole "if white people have less kids they will eventually be overpopulated by dirty minorities that have more" spiel that places like stormfront pumps out?

Who mentioned white people or minorities? You're just putting words in my mouth at this point.

There's something horribly wrong with male/female relationships in western society. Look at feminism, look at MGTOW. Look at the rates of single-motherhood and the effects it has on children. How long before these kind of trends start undermining our society?

That is what I am getting at.

I;m not putting words in your mouth, I'm comparing the words coming out of your mouth with the words spouted by neo nazis.

How exactly is femeinism ruining relationships in america?

9tailedflame:

Saelune:
Snip

But if you establish a friendly, chummy relationship at the beginning, then you're not longer considered romantically viable, that's what's known as the friendzone, isn't it? I mean look at any romantic movie in america ever. The couple aren't friends, they're enemies for like 90% of the movie. Our culture is one that dictates that friendship and romanticism don't mix.

Personal anecdote counter-argument time:

Every single relationship that I've been in (several multi-year ones and recently an engagement) has been with someone I was friends with prior to dating them. The whole 'friendzone' is overblown internet nonsense perpetuated by people who can't understand how a friend simply doesn't have the same romantic feelings as them.

RunsWithBears:

erttheking:

RunsWithBears:
The clock doesn't need to be turned back.
Unhealthy male/female relationships create an unhealthy society. Unhealthy societies lose the race against darwinism.
The clock will turn back itself.

That isn't what Darwinism is. Darwinism is how an animal that is most well suited to its environment will be more likely to pass on its genes. It isn't survival of the fittest. You shot your own argument in the foot with your lack of understanding of what Darwinism really is. Darwin never applied his concepts to humans either.

My argument is how a society that isn't well-suited for it's environment will be eaten.
And whether Darwin applied it to humans or not, I am doing that right now.
If you want to get stuck on semantics, be my guest, but I am not interested that.

Except you're not applying Darwinism to humans. You're making up an entirely separate concept then sticking Darwin's name on it to give it legitimacy.

If we were to engage in your outrageous abuse of Darwin's work, however, and follow your line of reasoning, then our current society "being eaten" is a good thing for humanity that we should embrace because "Survival of the Fittest" or whatever meaning that if our society is being eaten then it should be replaced by whatever the "fittest" actually is.

Wow, there is a lot to unpack in that post. Goodness.

9tailedflame:
Why would i want to try and establish a romantic relationship? The work and stress and danger involved outweighs the potential positives so overwhelmingly that i don't see why anyone does it, apart from social pressure and hormones.

I mean let's look at how much bullshit would have to go into me, as a straight man in America, that's my situation, to establish a romantic relationship with a woman. First we have finding a woman to have a relationship with. This involves 1 of 2 things.

There are hundreds of ways to meet people dude.

Bars or internet dating. Internet dating is 99% fake women and spam trying to sell cam sites, so that's out.

I don't think you've ever actually made any serious attempt at Internet dating because it can be shit but not for that reason. Or rather, for more reasons other than that (I don't recall any camgirls on OK Cupid, but I haven't used it in a while).

Dating in bars, from what I've heard, goes something like this. I go in, pay a lot of money for shitty drinks to hang out in a smelly bar for hours.

So, you haven't actually done it? All right then. Maybe try it first.

If you go to the bar with the sole intention of hooking up and you don't look like a Greek statue, nine times out of ten you're going to be let down. If you go in with an open mind, with the desire to just meet a few cool people and maybe get drunk and socialize, you'll enjoy it a hellova lot more.

Also remember Boomhauer?

I try to initiate romantic contact with women, and get treated as badly as is socially acceptable for any human to treat another human being without sparking social retribution.

What kind of histrionic nonsense is this? What bars have you been going to?

I don't think I've ever read anything quite so ridiculous.

The way men looking for relations with women are treated is so fucked up in American society. There's fake numbers for radio shows to humiliate men just looking for human contact, there's the "is this guy bugging you" guys, to add the threat of physical violence to the mix,

No idea what you're on about with the radio shows but never once in the fifteen or so years of my life going to bars have I ever encountered anyone like that. If you're not being a creepy asshole, there is no reason for anyone to do that.

more so anyway than a woman attacking me for daring to talk to her, aka the cheeky slap, along with just nasty women who think it's funny to put down and hurt men looking for human connection.

What the fuck bars are you going to where it's OK for people to assault one another? I've taken proper hits from people in pubs before (mostly for being a sloppy, obnoxious idiot but never for initiating violence because hey, I'm a lover, not a fighter) and security almost immediately grabbed them up and threw them out on their ass.

It sounds like you've never even been to a bar. If they let people slap one another silly, it would be rather bad for business. There is a reason they hire bouncers.

So assuming that i get through this sea of financial, emotional, and potentially physical misery, and i find someone who seems decent and isn't horrible to me, then there's dating, which involves me prostrating myself to keep her happy, slowly dissolving away anything in my life that made me happy to become a better personal manservant, which is what is expected of me by society as a boyfriend.

Maybe if you're dating a shitty person. If you're dating a normal person, chances are they'll be fine splitting the bill at dinner. With my girlfriend, half the time I have to insist that I pay for something because she won't let me. Find someone not shitty and this will never be an issue.

I am not to expect any personal benefits, apart from the great honor of serving the female gender, whoop de do. I'm expected to go where she wants to go, do what she wants to do, and grin and bear it all, while of course, paying for everything, because that's what a gentleman does after all, and if i don't, then we break up and it was all a waste of time. I'm never suppose to push to do things i want to do.

Well, I mean, you compromise. I once had a girlfriend where literally we alternated picking what movies to go see since we could never agree on what to watch. She liked silly romantic comedies and I liked pretentious arthouse films and it worked fine.

And relationships are never a waste. Even if you break up as long as you learn something about yourself and learn from the experience, why would it be a waste? What an absolutely limiting worldview you have. Are all jobs pointless too, just because you might quit one day?

Oh, and god forbid i want to have sex with an attractive woman. Even me bringing up my desire for sex in a relationship as a man who wants to have sex with a woman probably makes me a creeper pervert asshole piece of shit to many of you, and to society in general, so it's set to a small chance of maybe sex once a year.

Wanting sex isn't creepy. Going about trying to get it in a creepy way is creepy. Let things occur naturally. Don't force it.

Oh, and of course if i'm in a relationship, i can't masturbate to porn, because as a boyfreind, my sexuality is expected to be owned by my girlfriend, who from what i've heard, will generally just lock it in a box, throw it in the closet, and forget about it, so that's real fucking neato.

Dude, you gotta stop with this. You've never had a relationship yet the worst case scenario is definitely going to happen? Lighten the fuck up.

Then of course, there's the rare sex itself, where consent is pretty much impossible to determine without fucking the whole thing up, because civility is apparently a huge turn off, and despite rape rightly universally hated, it's also apparently necessary to be aggressive in order to turn women on, which for a passive person like myself, who would much rather sift through suitors myself rather than go out and find someone, is a bizarre and fucked up world of half-consents and mood reading that scares and confuses me.

Consent is actually pretty easy for most people, I think. If you don't know if someone wants to have sex with you or not, then probably just ask. I usually make a point of say to someone new I don't want to make them uncomfortable so just speak up if I do something they're not feeling. Seems to have worked so far.

And of course, if i misread the facial expression by a micrometer, that means i'm now a rapist and my life is over, which can happen even after she's already consented, so the whole process of determining consent like the most sexually frustrated detective, and apparently needing to read whether or not it's still consented throughout the entire act, since apparently a woman changing her mind and not telling you halfway through makes you a rapist.

What? You're not raping someone if you stop when they asks you to or when it becomes obvious that they're not into which is not hard to determine if you're even vaguely attentive. I've been in the middle of screwing around when it was obvious that the girl was in pain or uncomfortable so I stopped and asked if she was all right. It's not hard to take a second and check up on your lover, jeez.

If it were up to me, people would just walk up to each other and go "you want to fuck?" and the person would go "yes" or "no" and that would be that. I hate and am frustrated by the stupid bullshit social games required for courtship in western society. Even assuming most women are well-meaning and out for the same reason i am, the fact that they hold that proverbial gun just adds such a level of stress to the whole thing.

Except nobody holds any gun to anyone's head. The fact that you view sex and dating and relationships in such adversarial terms is like, deeply fucked up man.

So assuming i get through that shit, i'll try to stave off the inevitable question of marriage like a rabid lion on an ever-fraying rope until inevitably it all caves in, meanwhile my girlfriend slowly erodes anything that use to give me joy in my life, like my hobbies and friends, and as has been been already said by many in this thread, if you think a boyfriend is low on the social totem-poll, a husband is right at the bottom in the dirt. Husbands are treated really bad all across the board, legally, socially, financially, emotionally, it's all shit, and then you live that shit until you die.

Do you know why people date for so long? Because they want to make sure that this person is the one. So they can avoid all this crap. Sometimes it happens inevitably but then again some people get hit by buses yet we still walk around in public because risk is a part of everything we do. This is a really negative way to look at life.

So why would i even start? Why would i try to establish a romantic relationship, or a family? What exactly is there to be gained? From my admittedly inexperienced point of view, it seems like the better option is to just chill at home playing video games, watching tv, and masturbating in a small, affordable apartment with lots of free time and disposable income. Is that not the objectively better way to live life? Am i missing something here?

Yeah, you're missing a perspective outside of /r/TheRedPill. Like, you haven't even been to a bar or (it sounds like) even had a relationship or even fucking talked to a woman and yet you have some seriously fucked up perceptions about all of them. How is that even possible?

The funny thing is, I used to be like this, though maybe not quite to the same degree. I was awkward and socially inept. I used to hate the older guys who treated their younger girlfriends like shit. I used to seethe about girls who only went after guys because they were attractive. I used to like girls and get rejected and mope around like I was some kind of Romeo and I was negative all the time. I was emo before emo was a thing, making me an emo hipster. One day, I decided to change my attitude and try being more upbeat because no one likes to be around a miserable, dour bastard. An old friend pointed out that I never made eye contact with people so I tried doing that more. And you know what? It worked. Eventually I dated my first girlfriend after we had been friends for a while, though we'd known each other since we had been thirteen. It ended rather poorly (as high school romances are wont to) but it was a learning experience and even though our lives took vastly different roads, we're still friends to this day.

Honestly dude, get out. Meet people outside of bars. Join clubs. Take an art class or something. Go to local shows or join a theater troope or whatever. Just go in with the expectation of meeting people and nothing more and see what happens. Because it sounds like staying inside and playing video games is probably not the best thing for you. If you are having trouble meeting people and learning to read social cues, being inside all day isn't going to change that. Go out and people watch. Find an outgoing friend and ask them for help. And sorry if I was abrasive further up in this response but these attitudes are super not healthy or normal. You must realize that.

undeadsuitor:

I;m not putting words in your mouth, I'm comparing the words coming out of your mouth with the words spouted by neo nazis.

How exactly is femeinism ruining relationships in america?

Google/youtube "feminism ruining relationships".

http://www.debate.org/opinions/has-feminism-destroyed-the-family

94% yes, 6% no.

Avnger:

Except you're not applying Darwinism to humans. You're making up an entirely separate concept then sticking Darwin's name on it to give it legitimacy.

If we were to engage in your outrageous abuse of Darwin's work, however, and follow your line of reasoning, then our current society "being eaten" is a good thing for humanity that we should embrace because "Survival of the Fittest" or whatever meaning that if our society is being eaten then it should be replaced by whatever the "fittest" actually is.

If you understand my line of reasoning, why not respond to that and discuss, instead of being a snob about it, hm?

I mean you're all just blatantly avoiding discussion.

RunsWithBears:

undeadsuitor:

I;m not putting words in your mouth, I'm comparing the words coming out of your mouth with the words spouted by neo nazis.

How exactly is femeinism ruining relationships in america?

Google/youtube "feminism ruining relationships".

http://www.debate.org/opinions/has-feminism-destroyed-the-family

94% yes, 6% no.

Avnger:

Except you're not applying Darwinism to humans. You're making up an entirely separate concept then sticking Darwin's name on it to give it legitimacy.

If we were to engage in your outrageous abuse of Darwin's work, however, and follow your line of reasoning, then our current society "being eaten" is a good thing for humanity that we should embrace because "Survival of the Fittest" or whatever meaning that if our society is being eaten then it should be replaced by whatever the "fittest" actually is.

If you understand my line of reasoning, why not respond to that and discuss, instead of being a snob about it, hm?

I mean you're all just blatantly avoiding discussion.

So are you going to post an argument on your own, or are you just going to post a link to a single website? Because a single poll does not prove you right. How about you actually take a firm stance on this and directly talk about why YOU think it's true. FFS, the comments who say it has do everything from saying women shouldn't have jobs to slut shamming. These are people with hang ups over women not having to take their shit.

And your line of reasoning is an utter non-sequitur. There's nothing to respond to.

erttheking:

So are you going to post an argument on your own, or are you just going to post a link to a single website? Because a single poll does not prove you right. How about you actually take a firm stance on this and directly talk about why YOU think it's true. FFS, the comments who say it has do everything from saying women shouldn't have jobs to slut shamming. These are people with hang ups over women not having to take their shit.

And your line of reasoning is an utter non-sequitur. There's nothing to respond to.

You, just like the other person I quoted, seem to be projecting your own anger on my opinions. You accuse me of not giving you things to respond to, but here you are entering a discussion with an animosity that is based on what you fear my opinions are. You'd do well to look in the mirror sometime.

RunsWithBears:

undeadsuitor:

I;m not putting words in your mouth, I'm comparing the words coming out of your mouth with the words spouted by neo nazis.

How exactly is femeinism ruining relationships in america?

Google/youtube "feminism ruining relationships".

http://www.debate.org/opinions/has-feminism-destroyed-the-family

94% yes, 6% no.

But why do you think feminism is ruining relationships?

RunsWithBears:
You, just like the other person I quoted, seem to be projecting your own anger on my opinions. You accuse me of not giving you things to respond to, but here you are entering a discussion with an animosity that is based on what you fear my opinions are. You'd do well to look in the mirror sometime.

They've got a point. That link is the most substantial position you've provided. It's not unreasonable to assume you share the result of that poll and thus the opinions those who participated.

RunsWithBears:

erttheking:

So are you going to post an argument on your own, or are you just going to post a link to a single website? Because a single poll does not prove you right. How about you actually take a firm stance on this and directly talk about why YOU think it's true. FFS, the comments who say it has do everything from saying women shouldn't have jobs to slut shamming. These are people with hang ups over women not having to take their shit.

And your line of reasoning is an utter non-sequitur. There's nothing to respond to.

You, just like the other person I quoted, seem to be projecting your own anger on my opinions. You accuse me of not giving you things to respond to, but here you are entering a discussion with an animosity that is based on what you fear my opinions are. You'd do well to look in the mirror sometime.

You are clearly expressing your opinions and they are potentially harmful ones. People arent robots and are allowed to have emotions about things. If you think your opinions are right, defend them properly, dont just get mad that people are mad at your maddening views.

Saelune:
You are clearly expressing your opinions and they are potentially harmful ones. People arent robots and are allowed to have emotions about things. If you think your opinions are right, defend them properly, dont just get mad that people are mad at your maddening views.

Besides the opinion that I find current male/female relationships unhealthy I have expressed nothing.
It isn't me who is bringing animosity into this conversation, but you.

PainInTheAssInternet:

RunsWithBears:
You, just like the other person I quoted, seem to be projecting your own anger on my opinions. You accuse me of not giving you things to respond to, but here you are entering a discussion with an animosity that is based on what you fear my opinions are. You'd do well to look in the mirror sometime.

They've got a point. That link is the most substantial position you've provided. It's not unreasonable to assume you share the result of that poll and thus the opinions those who participated.

The position I have taken in my first post is that I believe current male/female relationships to be unhealthy and potentially damaging to society. Before any further elaboration could take place people already started assuming all sorts of things about my position which makes discussion impossible.

 Pages PREV 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 NEXT

Reply to Thread

Log in or Register to Comment
Have an account? Login below:
With Facebook:Login With Facebook
or
Username:  
Password:  
  
Not registered? To sign up for an account with The Escapist:
Register With Facebook
Register With Facebook
or
Register for a free account here