French election results - Macron vs Le Pen

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Parasondox:

Zontar:

Parasondox:

Wait wait wait hold on. Do you know how it's like now for workers under a Tory government?

Given Labour's campaign to desperately not loose half its seats, I'd say it's hard to imagine May's government doing worst given how that would require active attacks on them at this point.

No, no, no. I said and asked do you KNOW how it's like now for workers under a Tory government. Not "imagine". KNOW.

Well I've heard horrible things about zero hour contracts and the cuts to social spending. Which doesn't really change the fact that Labour's current platform isn't a step up, which isn't a surprise given it was made by economically illiterate people who openly celebrate Mao ("he wasn't that bad guys"), has a leader who goes out marching with literal communists (of the "are as bad as Nazis in every way" given there where many open Stalinist and Maoists amongst them), who can't even answer if he's order a response to a nuclear strike. Doesn't even have the balls to admit it would be "no".

Zontar:

Parasondox:

Zontar:

Given Labour's campaign to desperately not loose half its seats, I'd say it's hard to imagine May's government doing worst given how that would require active attacks on them at this point.

No, no, no. I said and asked do you KNOW how it's like now for workers under a Tory government. Not "imagine". KNOW.

Well I've heard horrible things about zero hour contracts and the cuts to social spending. Which doesn't really change the fact that Labour's current platform isn't a step up, which isn't a surprise given it was made by economically illiterate people who openly celebrate Mao ("he wasn't that bad guys"), has a leader who goes out marching with literal communists (of the "are as bad as Nazis in every way" given there where many open Stalinist and Maoists amongst them), who can't even answer if he's order a response to a nuclear strike. Doesn't even have the balls to admit it would be "no".

I was looking for a simple answer, not a Labour rant. Many in the UK know that Labour as an opposition party is weak because they can't get their shit together internally. Many of the workers rights we have now were formed and protected by the EU but seeing as we are leaving, which ever party gains power, need to come up with a better alternative or more hard working people will be screwed over. For decades, even thanks to the Unions, Labour Party has been all about the workers. Heck, it was founded as a working class party. This election will make another change in British politics. Just do not assume Tories are pro workers and not pro corporate. I just wish our current government did more to challenge those who avoid paying tax?

bastardofmelbourne:
France actually has an unusual law that basically imposes a media blackout on election day and the day before, forbidding anyone from prognosticating about the possible results right before people go in to vote.

This can help Macron or hurt him; on the one hand, if no-one in the media is talking about the leaked emails, the leak will have no effect. On the other hand, the law prevents him from properly rebutting the accusations in public, because he's literally not allowed to campaign on election weekend.

I think he'll win. Polls still have him ahead quite strongly. We'll see in the next day or so, I guess.

We have that in the UK also, kinda. a TV channel is meant to be fair when it comes to parties in an Election. Well newspapers do not have that and boy do they run rampant sometimes.

I need Screenwipe to come back please.

As happy as I am that France managed to remember it's a civilized country, as important is it to keep in mind that if the French left treats it as a victory they're only delaying the inevitable. They now need to reach out to the poor, to the desperate and to the disenfranchise and offer them an alternative... because Macron sure as hell isn't going to. An election shouldn't be about voting for the candidate you're afraid of less, nor should it boil down to the question "what you hate more: Nazis or immigrants?"

tf2godz:
So Macron won
http://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-europe-39823865

65.1% - 34.9%
It wasn't even close

Hooray!

May this be the first of many nails in the alt-right's coffin.

bastardofmelbourne:

tf2godz:
So Macron won
http://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-europe-39823865

65.1% - 34.9%
It wasn't even close

Hooray!

May this be the first of many nails in the alt-right's coffin.

Hope it's a big nail because they have invaded social media with their hatred and racism. Sooooooooooooo much racism. Oh and ignorance because, well, racist bigots have zero idea on how to use the human brain. Talk about a waste of space.

Zontar:

Well given how important wages are to workers, coupled with the fact that Labour wants to add more unpaid days off to the calendar while continuing the depreciation of wages as an effective tax on workers to push social policy that only benefits the rich (people care more about the results of policy then intent, something that's about the opposite of Labour these days), and their advocacy for shitty public housing blocks that those who live in have no future due to the environment it creates, well if Labour really does care about workers they do a horrible job of it and should be kept out of office until they get a competent leadership that can advocate policy that will actually help them instead of harm them.

It would be better to admit you were wrong (though I think in modern parlance we say 'I misspoke') than to keep digging the hole.

Wage growth for workers has been pathetic under the Tories.

Bank holidays are paid holidays unless you're part of the gig economy or a zero hours worker. Both of which have expanded massively under the Tories.

By 'shitty public housing blocks' do you mean council estates? They're fine. Good, even. They give homes to people who otherwise couldn't afford one. I grew up on one, and my own first home was on one. They are not a dystopian nightmare - actually, in my experience they tend to have more associated green spaces and play areas for children, because public housing isn't developed with the purpose of extracting maximum land value from the minimum plot size, whereas private housing absolutely is (why leave a little field when you could fit three more houses on it?!).

It's fine to not like Labour - they absolutely aren't perfect, and I wish they were better - but just making stuff up willy-nilly, and choosing something so laughably opposite-land at that, and then doubling down on it, doesn't lend any other argument you make credibility.

Zontar:

While I won't disagree that the Tories aren't pro-corporation, Labour certainly isn't pro-worker, and megacorporations certainly are not in support of lower regulations since that's half of what prevents competition from arising.

Which regulations?

Regulations against economic damage, or against abusive contractual obligations, or against pay structure regulations, are the ones we're talking about here. Labour tends to support them; Conservatives tend to avoid them or repeal them. This places the Conservatives squarely in the camp of supporting the financial interests over those of the workers, consumers and public at large.

Zontar:

So wages are the only thing in the entire economy not effected by the law of supply and demand? Well, TIL.

Obviously they're affected by supply and demand. But they are also squarely in the hands of those who choose how much to pay; the companies themselves.

Zontar:

TIL that Sanders was lying when he complained about the lack of employment and underpaid labour being an issue, and that the socialists in France are not in fact anti-EU and pro-economic intervention as they claim.

I'm sorry, but claiming that Sanders was closer to Clinton or that the French socialists where closer to Macron is basically stating that both lie about what their actual positions are. Which, while possible (Clinton and Macron certainly didn't tell the public their actual positions after all) seems unlikely to me.

Absolute bollocks. You are pretending to understand the priorities of the left (which you do not share) greater than they themselves, which is arrogant to say the least.

Sanders supports greater economic intervention, and greater regulation, than either of the other candidates; Trump supports the very least, the least financial or corporate regulation.

All you're doing is linking these issues-- highly dubiously-- to your own favoured solutions, and then interpreting a failure to support your favoured solutions as a failure to prioritise addressing those issues at all. It's simplistic cyclical logic.

Zontar:

Well Labour certainly isn't pro-worker.

You singled out Labour, and not the Conservatives, as "pro-corporate". Give an actual reason, rather than merely retreating into insults aimed at the other side. Explain your choice.

All this celebration about Le Pen losing is kind of missing the point... she did about twice as good as her father did 15 years ago, the problem is not going away simply because Macron won the election. (Any credible candidate that would have made it to the second round would have won the election against Le Pen, really)

With the apparent demise of the Socialiste Party and the relative frailty of the FI alliance, you might see a left more fractured than ever, leaving the three main parties as centre-right, solid right, and nationalist right. That is no cause for celebration, it's rather ghastly, even.

Sonmi:
That is no cause for celebration, it's rather ghastly, even.

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Then again, that's probably a bad example, since most of those cheering here ain't going to be living with the consequences (thus ain't going to be in the house on fire) and didn't even understand France to begin with, let alone genuinely give two fucks about it (otherwise they would not have been so eager to jump on macron's penis just because he was going up against lepen).

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Lol at marseilles being FN stronghold though, can't say I didn't see that coming xD

Frankster:

Sonmi:
That is no cause for celebration, it's rather ghastly, even.

Then again, that's probably a bad example, since most of those cheering here ain't going to be living with the consequences and didn't even understand France to begin with, let alone genuinely give two fucks about it (otherwise they would not have been so eager to jump on macron's penis just because he was going up against lepen).

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Lol at marseilles being FN stronghold though, can't say I didn't see that coming xD

Have to echo your sentiments here, the youth is more and more turning to the FN, and old folks making up the Republicain Front against Le Pen won't live forever.

The only way I see the FN (under any form) not becoming stronger after five years is if it fragments itself, which could definitively be a possibility. The alliance with Dupont-Aignan shows that the party might abandon the Philippot strategy of going further and further left, if they were to officialise their repositioning as economically far-right, I think the more left-leaning elements of the FN (and the Northern electorate) might abandon them, either to form a new party, or even maybe to attempt to join up with Melenchon. (Which he personally might see as an insult)

Nationalism alone cannot make a coherent party, especially when the different factions of said party want diametrically opposed policies when it comes to economics and welfare. I think the FN might be in for a bit of internal strife in the next few years, and it will likely come out of it changed. If it'll be stronger after that, that remains to be seen.

Sonmi:

Have to echo your sentiments here, the youth is more and more turning to the FN, and old folks making up the Republicain Front against Le Pen won't live forever.

The only way I see the FN (under any form) not becoming stronger after five years is if it fragments itself, which could definitively be a possibility. The alliance with Dupont-Aignan shows that the party might abandon the Philippot strategy of going further and further left, if they were to officialise their repositioning as economically far-right, I think the more left-leaning elements of the FN (and the Northern electorate) might abandon them, either to form a new party, or even maybe to attempt to join up with Melenchon. (Which he personally might see as an insult)

Nationalism alone cannot make a coherent party, especially when the different factions of said party want diametrically opposed policies when it comes to economics and welfare. I think the FN might be in for a bit of internal strife in the next few years, and it will likely come out of it changed. If it'll be stronger after that, that remains to be seen.

Well, another thing which might bring down the FN is Macron succeeding in his task to tackle the high unemployment and slow growth of France... Oh who am I kidding, French people love opposing any kind of reforms and as such they'll make it impossible for him to do jack shit.

generals3:
Well, another thing which might bring down the FN is Macron succeeding in his task to tackle the high unemployment and slow growth of France... Oh who am I kidding, French people love opposing any kind of reforms and as such they'll make it impossible for him to do jack shit.

If Macron tackles unemployment by taking the German system as a basis, it might not be preferable. As Juan-Lucas aptly pointed out during the debates, Germany might have a lower unemployment rate, but its poverty rate is twice that of France's.

But yeah, I'm not expecting the French people to let him go through with his reforms. The 35 hour week is too deeply ingrained into the French identity for the Loi du Travail 2.0 to be able to be passed without serious backlash a few years down the road.

Sonmi:

generals3:
Well, another thing which might bring down the FN is Macron succeeding in his task to tackle the high unemployment and slow growth of France... Oh who am I kidding, French people love opposing any kind of reforms and as such they'll make it impossible for him to do jack shit.

If Macron tackles unemployment by taking the German system as a basis, it might not be preferable. As Juan-Lucas aptly pointed out during the debates, Germany might have a lower unemployment rate, but its poverty rate is twice that of France's.

But yeah, I'm not expecting the French people to let him go through with his reforms. The 35 hour week is too deeply ingrained into the French identity for the Loi du Travail 2.0 to be able to be passed without serious backlash a few years down the road.

Well it's true that Germany's economic policies came at the expense of a lot of equality. But surely there is a balance to be found. The problem right now is that workers benefit from so many benefits and protection that companies are very reluctant to hire people.

Zontar:

Well I've heard horrible things about zero hour contracts and the cuts to social spending. Which doesn't really change the fact that Labour's current platform isn't a step up, which isn't a surprise given it was made by economically illiterate people who openly celebrate Mao...

No, Labour's economic plan was drawn up on the advice of a number of well-respected, professional, neoclassical economists all of whom are capitalists (albeit leftish end of capitalism).

I think you're also confusing a (rather ill-thought out) joke in the House of Commons with actually supporting Mao. But hey, who needs reality when one can bark empty nonsense instead?

Feels bad man.

Think this all but guarantees an FN candidate victory in 5 years though.

Frankster:

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Lol at marseilles being FN stronghold though, can't say I didn't see that coming xD

So this is an opposite Brexit status?

Anyways, the winner seems pkay for Jews and Israel so I can't complain too much.

Well clearly Le Pen only lost because she is a woman and the sexist voters of France are uncomfortable with their President having a vagina. No wait! We should redo the election because old people voted for Macron but young people voted for LePen, and since old people don't have to live with the consequences of a Macron election as long as young people their votes shouldn't count.
What? Are we not doing that this time? Are those suddenly not valid arguments anymore?

Passive aggressive snark aside, I honestly know very little about the French Election so I don't really have a strong opinion on the results. I'm suddenly overwhelmed with an intense feeling of almost fitting in but then blowing it at the last second.

Silent Protagonist:
Well clearly Le Pen only lost because she is a woman and the sexist voters of France are uncomfortable with their President having a vagina. No wait! We should redo the election because old people voted for Macron but young people voted for LePen, and since old people don't have to live with the consequences of a Macron election as long as young people their votes shouldn't count.
What? Are we not doing that this time? Are those suddenly not valid arguments anymore?

Passive aggressive snark aside, I honestly know very little about the French Election so I don't really have a strong opinion on the results. I'm suddenly overwhelmed with an intense feeling of almost fitting in but then blowing it at the last second.

Being passive aggressive is pretty much the staple on the escapist, you fit right in!

An unsurprising result.

Ultimately, it's not my country. I can't say I was ever too invested. But, I hope that Macron does well for France and that the country does well under him.

Failing to do so, it won't be long before it's FN's turn.

Well the young voted Le Pen cause there situation suck, they don't really care what Le Pen stands for so long as they see her as different from the current system (it also help that she can put forward scape goat for there shitty situation).

The best things to do for them would be to make it easier to fire people, so that company can start hiring again without fear that they'll be stuck with a shitty employee forever, but this is super unpopular and probably won't happen cause even if Macron somehow control the assembly it'll be open revolt in the street if he did that. It would also help to reform the pension system so that the government isn't bankrupt paying for people retirement that were set decades ago with wildly optimistic projection, but again incredibly unpopular (also gotta raise retirement age, even more unpopular).

So yeah, I don't see him doing well because I don't see anyone doing well. The FN might implode over the year and maybe the republican will finally learn that putting forward corrupt people is kinda dumb.

Agema:

No, Labour's economic plan was drawn up on the advice of a number of well-respected, professional, neoclassical economists all of whom are capitalists (albeit leftish end of capitalism).

While I wasn't aware that left leaning economists where in support of small business killing overregulation that only benefits megacorporations, at this point it wouldn't surprise me.

I think you're also confusing a (rather ill-thought out) joke in the House of Commons with actually supporting Mao. But hey, who needs reality when one can bark empty nonsense instead?

No, that wasn't what I was talking about, but thanks for reminding me of that, I forgot about it.

I was talking about Corbyn literally protesting with Maoists and Stalinists and one of their MPs (not sure if she's a shadow minister but I think she is) stating that Mao did more good then harm (which he objectively did not).

inu-kun:

So this is an opposite Brexit status?

Anyways, the winner seems pkay for Jews and Israel so I can't complain too much.

Pretty much!

As for the winners being ok for jews/israel, hum..Kinda, for now at least..Problem is what happens after Macron's presidency, he is mr status quo with all that entails, aka he isn't likely to break much and we are just going to be merkel's bitch for the next 5 years, but on the other hand he isn't likely to fix much either, and he doesn't even want to acknowledge some peculiar problems france faces atm which means those problems are only going to get bigger and that leaves just the FN... Who have the younger voter base and whose message of self preservation is going to be increasingly appealing the more useless Macron becomes.

So basically what i'm saying is, this could just be the calm before the storm and it's going to be difficult times ahead for France, and this might end up being worst for jews and israel later on if we lurch hard to the right due to Macron's failures.. Because it's unlikely Macron is going to be anything else then an EU cronie and won't do jack shit for France and will just set the stage for a FN or other far right party to win further down the line, boy do I really hope I'm wrong and he ends up surprising us all though. I'd love to eat some humble pie and sing his praises due to being so wrong years down the line *fingers crossed* But yeah let's be realistic, bank man through and through, was finance minister in last government (didnt do a great job at it), we know he is super corrupt (not that anyone here cheering for him seems to care about that) and is mr establishment incarnate..This dude isn't going to fix fuck all.

Meiam:
it also help that she can put forward scape goat for there shitty situation

Except it's not a scapegoat but a partial truth. I know a lot of people here don't even want to admit it because it clashes with their world view of how things SHOULD be, and it's very intellectually safe to blurt out the usual "ah immigrants, they are always a scapegoat" line of thinking, pat yourself on the back for being so wise then take a thinking philosopher pose because usually it is true..But not always xD And there is definite fire causing smoke here.

There IS tensions that come from muslim immigrants and 2-3rd generation who don't even like French values and culture, there IS tensions that come from religious differences and there IS a problem that comes from accepting too many of them too fast before they can even integrate and just end up forming their own isolated communities which end up being a cancer within french society.

They do cause trouble, they DO blow shit up, and no , terrorism is NOT a daily usual part of urban life in a big city, because if that's so, why is it cities like Tokyo don't get this kind of shit? Honestly people who say nonsense like this like the London mayor or Macron himself can go screw themselves because it clearly doesn't happen everywhere and it only comes from a certain section of the population , it's even worst coming from Macron because he is a rich fuck who likely never took a foot outside his wealthy arrondissment so he is insulated as fuck against living with those lovely immigrants and muslims he says ain't a problem, yeah like he is in a good place to know xD I'd love to see this fucker try to walk around incognito in say..arrondissment 93..

Don't make the mistake others have made, if you bury your heads in the sand on this, you leave ONLY the front national to turn to.
And no this isn't France's only problem (covering my ass here because this is the escapist), but it's a damn well big one and it's the elephant in the room that a lot would rather pretend isn't there and call mad anyone who points out its existence, but ignoring it doesn't make it go away sadly.

Sonmi:
All this celebration about Le Pen losing is kind of missing the point... she did about twice as good as her father did 15 years ago, the problem is not going away simply because Macron won the election. (Any credible candidate that would have made it to the second round would have won the election against Le Pen, really)

With the apparent demise of the Socialiste Party and the relative frailty of the FI alliance, you might see a left more fractured than ever, leaving the three main parties as centre-right, solid right, and nationalist right. That is no cause for celebration, it's rather ghastly, even.

Hey, man; a win is a win. Even if the next election is 51-49 in Macron's favour, that's ten years where the FN doesn't have the presidency. A lot can change in ten years; in 2007, North Korea was denuclearizing, the economy hadn't imploded yet, ISIS didn't exist and Syria was a pretty decent place to live by Middle Eastern standards.

Anything that can delay the victory of far-right nationalists long enough for their voters to mature and realise that their policies are bullshit is a good thing in my opinion.

Zontar:
While I wasn't aware that left leaning economists where in support of small business killing overregulation that only benefits megacorporations, at this point it wouldn't surprise me.

What overregulation are you referring to? I have a small business and would be interested to hear what problems I'm experiencing.

The Lunatic:
An unsurprising result.

Ultimately, it's not my country. I can't say I was ever too invested. But, I hope that Macron does well for France and that the country does well under him.

Failing to do so, it won't be long before it's FN's turn.

The opposite of Macron is Melchenon(or his party). Le Pen really had her best chance this time, far worse needs to happen if she wants to win in 2020.

Zontar:
While I wasn't aware that left leaning economists where in support of small business killing overregulation that only benefits megacorporations, at this point it wouldn't surprise me.

They're not, but you're the only person who would characterise Labour's regulatory approach that way.

You are not going to convince anybody, but anybody, with highly-charged rhetoric and no detail. All it tells anybody is that you don't like Labour; it tells us nothing about their actual platform, because we all know you would say much the same regardless of what Labour's platform actually entailed.

Zontar:

I was talking about Corbyn literally protesting with Maoists and Stalinists and one of their MPs (not sure if she's a shadow minister but I think she is) stating that Mao did more good then harm (which he objectively did not).

Ahh, the old "platform-sharing" accusation. How does this square with the Conservatives selling weaponry to Saudi Arabia? Or all her other "platform-sharing" with despots? You apply no consistent standards at all.

I seem to remember that you threw the "Saudi Arabia" accusation at Hillary Clinton, because the Clinton Foundation received a relatively small donation from the Saudi ruling family. Yet here, we have a right wing government receiving much more money from the same source-- and actually demonstrably giving something dangerous back, in the form of British weapons-- and you have no complaints. It's always the Left, never the Right, regardless of what they do, even if the Right are provably doing what you earlier accused the Left of doing.

bastardofmelbourne:

Sonmi:
All this celebration about Le Pen losing is kind of missing the point... she did about twice as good as her father did 15 years ago, the problem is not going away simply because Macron won the election. (Any credible candidate that would have made it to the second round would have won the election against Le Pen, really)

With the apparent demise of the Socialiste Party and the relative frailty of the FI alliance, you might see a left more fractured than ever, leaving the three main parties as centre-right, solid right, and nationalist right. That is no cause for celebration, it's rather ghastly, even.

Hey, man; a win is a win. Even if the next election is 51-49 in Macron's favour, that's ten years where the FN doesn't have the presidency. A lot can change in ten years; in 2007, North Korea was denuclearizing, the economy hadn't imploded yet, ISIS didn't exist and Syria was a pretty decent place to live by Middle Eastern standards.

Anything that can delay the victory of far-right nationalists long enough for their voters to mature and realise that their policies are bullshit is a good thing in my opinion.

A loss is also a loss, and the election of Macron instead of Hamon or Melenchon is a loss, especially when you look at what it entails for left wing politics in the country. Simply saying "Well, Le Pen didn't win!" isn't enough, the country needed change, it needed to move away from the German austerity-fueled method of ruling the country that has impoverished the population, it doesn't need a cranking up of the status quo, which is what Macron is, especially when the working class and the Sunni population are both radicalizing at a scary pace.

To expect the voters of the FN to mature when it appears their lot will keep getting worse is dreaming, in my opinion, they won't snap out of it until someone puts change on the table and offers to fix the problems currently French society, such as growing wealth disparities and rampant privatization of public services. More of that won't help. The voters won't change, but what you can hope for is for the lefty wing of the party splitting away following Le Pen's apparent desire to abandon the Philippot strategy with the recent alliance with Nicolas Dupont-Aignan, who stands for everything a considerable part of Le Pen's electorate loathes.

Silvanus:
Ahh, the old "platform-sharing" accusation. How does this square with the Conservatives selling weaponry to Saudi Arabia? Or all her other "platform-sharing" with despots? You apply no consistent standards at all.

This is just whataboutism.

You can be against both. A criticism of one party is not an endorsement of another, especially given England has multiple political parties which one can support.

Zontar isn't even British, so, I don't know why you would imagine he supports the Tories and all that they do, but, chances are he doesn't.

Marion Marechal-Le Pen just announced she was quitting politics.

Jean-Marie Le Pen just said that Florian Philippot was to blame for his daughter's loss because he's making the FN a left-wing party.

Let the unraveling begin.

Sonmi:
Marion Marechal-Le Pen just announced she was quitting politics.

Jean-Marie Le Pen just said that Florian Philippot was to blame for his daughter's loss because he's making the FN a left-wing party.

Let the unraveling begin.

I dunno how much damage that'll actually do, it seems pretty clear that the FN is firmly in Marine hand at this point, this is just the old guard getting kicked out/slash leaving. Now Marine has 5 year to firmly secure her position in the FN and give it a new branding.

I mean, imagine if the FN didn't have the whole holocaust denier tag attached to it (or was just a new party altogether), it would have done much better/possibly won last election, so I doubt a lot of people are going to turn against Marine at this point. They know she has a far better shot at winning that her father/niece.

Meiam:

Sonmi:
Marion Marechal-Le Pen just announced she was quitting politics.

Jean-Marie Le Pen just said that Florian Philippot was to blame for his daughter's loss because he's making the FN a left-wing party.

Let the unraveling begin.

I dunno how much damage that'll actually do, it seems pretty clear that the FN is firmly in Marine hand at this point, this is just the old guard getting kicked out/slash leaving. Now Marine has 5 year to firmly secure her position in the FN and give it a new branding.

I mean, imagine if the FN didn't have the whole holocaust denier tag attached to it (or was just a new party altogether), it would have done much better/possibly won last election, so I doubt a lot of people are going to turn against Marine at this point. They know she has a far better shot at winning that her father/niece.

I don't know, man, I think you might be overestimating Marine's weight in the party and overestimating the internal division between the party's traditionalist Southern voters and the left-wing electorate that make up most of their Northern gains under the Philippot strategy.

The party cannot go on while being that divided, the two differing factions want diametrically opposite economic and social policies, the FN will have to split eventually, or clearly reposition itself ideologically which might lose them either their Northern electorate if they go to the right, or their Southern one if they go for the left. The deal with Dupont-Aignan seems to point towards the former.

But yeah, if the party reforms under a new name and ditches the Le Pen legacy (by being helmed by Philippot for instance) it could very well win the next elections. Hell, I think they could have potentially won these elections too if they did that earlier.

The Lunatic:

This is just whataboutism.

You can be against both. A criticism of one party is not an endorsement of another, especially given England has multiple political parties which one can support.

Zontar isn't even British, so, I don't know why you would imagine he supports the Tories and all that they do, but, chances are he doesn't.

You can indeed be against both. Zontar, however, is not, and he frequently comments on British politics. You'll notice that this started because he singled out Labour specifically as the "pro-corporation" party.

The Lunatic:

Zontar isn't even British, so, I don't know why you would imagine he supports the Tories and all that they do, but, chances are he doesn't.

I think he's just confused because our left and right use the opposite colours to the US. I know I almost voted for Trump by mistake.

God knows why the Lib Dems chose yellow though. Yellow?! Would've preferred grey, but John Major already nailed that (I'm old enough to remember Spitting Image (and having nightmares about the Thatcher puppet)).

I like to avoid anglophone discussion of the elections. It just tires me and I can't muster the energy for much in these forums.

Still, I'm extremely happy.

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