French election results - Macron vs Le Pen

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Frission:
I like to avoid anglophone discussion of the elections. It just tires me and I can't muster the energy for much in these forums.

Still, I'm extremely happy.

Y'a rien qui t'empeche de parler francais, tu sais?

Silvanus:

You can indeed be against both. Zontar, however, is not, and he frequently comments on British politics. You'll notice that this started because he singled out Labour specifically as the "pro-corporation" party.

I think you should probably let Zontar speak for himself. You know what they say about assuming.

Baffle2:
I think he's just confused because our left and right use the opposite colours to the US. I know I almost voted for Trump by mistake.

God knows why the Lib Dems chose yellow though. Yellow?! Would've preferred grey, but John Major already nailed that (I'm old enough to remember Spitting Image (and having nightmares about the Thatcher puppet)).

Honestly, our political system must seem pretty confusing to outsiders. I don't even think most of the natives get it, I'm not even sure I do, honestly.

Red for Labour makes sense, given you know... Socialism and all that. Not sure where Blue came from.

UKIP is purple as their primary role is converting Labour voters into Tories.

Every single other nationalist party uses Red, White and Blue, or some combination thereof, because they're all terribly original.

Green uses green, because they're green. Also, nobody hates green, it's an incredibly inoffensive colour.

SNP And Lib dems using orange and yellow is an odd choice though.

The last thing I think of when I think Scotland is anything as bright as yellow. A murky brown-green-grey might be more appropriate.

The Lunatic:

The last thing I think of when I think Scotland is anything as bright as yellow. A murky brown-green-grey might be more appropriate.

Yellow is the political colour of liberalism. Usually representative of classical liberalism. Free trade, reduced government interference, greater access to private resources, increased freedoms and civil rights, and secularisation of one's participation in the marketplace.

You know... like most economies that work and aren't plagued by idiots saying God should speak louder than one's coin. This is basic political economy stuff.

They should teach this stuff in schools. In most of the Western world you can often tell what (male) politicians will stand on big topic issues being discussed by just looking at their ties and the colours they take. Depends on the exact country. Green with gold accents is Australian nationalism for instance...

Solid green is environmentalism. Red is conservative. Blue is reform and creative management. Black is undecided. Purple (ish) is fiscally minded, etc... basically what you wear represents, at an eye's glance, just how much big ticket support you might receive during session.

The Lunatic:
SNP And Lib dems using orange and yellow is an odd choice though.

National consistency of party colour is quite modern. The drive to uniform national party colours started in the 1960s, and wasn't really complete until ~1980.

Colours were used to distinguish candidates from each other since the 19th century in the UK, but this occurred at a local level, and they could vary enormously from once place to another. The use of red to represent the left goes back to the 18th century, although this was far from a hard and fast rule (albeit much more common after socialism). In practice, many Labour candidates had to campaign in other colours because the local Tories or Liberals already used red. Northern Irish unionists used orange (via William of Orange) as it long represented Protestantism in Ireland.

But there are no particularly striking historical or traditional reasons for most. The Liberal Party, for instance, originally preferred orange in the 1960s (and still occasionally do) because market research said it stood out more, although moved towards yellow. The SNP quite likely chose yellow for the same reason that it stood out.

Addendum_Forthcoming:

The Lunatic:

The last thing I think of when I think Scotland is anything as bright as yellow. A murky brown-green-grey might be more appropriate.

Yellow is the political colour of liberalism. Usually representative of classical liberalism. Free trade, reduced government interference, greater access to private resources, increased freedoms and civil rights, and secularisation of one's participation in the marketplace.

You know... like most economies that work and aren't plagued by idiots saying God should speak louder than one's coin. This is basic political economy stuff.

They should teach this stuff in schools. In most of the Western world you can often tell what (male) politicians will stand on big topic issues being discussed by just looking at their ties and the colours they take. Depends on the exact country. Green with gold accents is Australian nationalism for instance...

Solid green is environmentalism. Red is conservative. Blue is reform and creative management. Black is undecided. Purple (ish) is fiscally minded, etc... basically what you wear represents, at an eye's glance, just how much big ticket support you might receive during session.

Only in the US, I believe.

In Europe, it tends to be light red for social democrats(hamon) and dark red for democratic socialists(melchenon).
Blue is common for conservatives, except for Germany that uses black.

While we're comparing colours and their political affiliations, here in Canada, red is for the "Centre" Liberals, dark blue for the right-wing Conservatives, orange for the left-wing NDP, green for the Greens (obviously), and light blue for the national Quebecois Bloc.

Meanwhile in Quebec, red is for the right-wing Liberals, blue for the "leftish" Parti Quebecois, and orange is used by both the leftmost party (Solidary Quebec) and by what used to be the rightmost one (the ADQ) which now uses light blue (as the CAQ).

Also, in Canada, milk comes in bags.

Melenchon, the PS, and the PCF can't even manage to cooperate for the Legislatives... this is plain shameful, let's hope the Left gets its shit straight before next month.

The Lunatic:

I think you should probably let Zontar speak for himself. You know what they say about assuming.

Yes, that was rather my idea when I addressed him.

Sonmi:

Also, in Canada, milk comes in bags.

What colour bags? I don't want milk from Tory cows.

Sonmi:
Also, in Canada, milk comes in bags.

what

WHAT

bastardofmelbourne:

Sonmi:
Also, in Canada, milk comes in bags.

what

WHAT

I'm so confused. Cows don't get milked straight into 2 gallon plastic jugs? o.0

Avnger:

I'm so confused. Cows don't get milked straight into 2 gallon plastic jugs? o.0

2 gallons?! How much tea are you drinking?!

Baffle2:

Avnger:

I'm so confused. Cows don't get milked straight into 2 gallon plastic jugs? o.0

2 gallons?! How much tea are you drinking?!

See, I started to write 2 liter because it was Canada but then its bought in gallon jugs here, so 2 gallon jugs it became lol.

Baffle2:

Avnger:

I'm so confused. Cows don't get milked straight into 2 gallon plastic jugs? o.0

2 gallons?! How much tea are you drinking?!

Why would you spoil perfectly good tea with milk? Tea is meant to be bitter, heathen.

I agree that 2 gallon jugs of milk is a bit excessive, but milk in tea seems even more wrong.

Also, bags of milk? How do you even pour it?

Anyways, on topic. Macron was kind of a given as I recall. I think commentators called it correctly. And part of that is despite French passions conerning ideas of civilrights, and social progress ... everyone who has a basic education (and the French education system is still quite good) knows recessions happen. You can't have a boom without an eventual bust.

Noi matter how well an economy is managed, eventually there is a downturn. Housing gets too expensive, labour costs gets too high that consumption cannot generate additional demand for work. Market demand for commodities you produce is no longer there.

All economists accept this, and Macron represents that idea of careful management. Structural changes that work within the conventional ideas of market participation and life expectations ... and naturally that appeals to any conventional understanding of economics of which are taught in French schools. Correctly might I add.

Expecting an economy to go without a bust is like forgetting history time and again.

So when confronted with a depressed marketplace, high unemployment, and other suitable factors of French life with a well educated populace, are you going to pick someone that understands economic realities of the international marketplace ... or are yougoing to pretend that rhetoric and screaming about how everyone not French is evil is a suitable candidate for reforming French finance and industry? Sure, you can vote in a Trump ... but as has been proven time and again in the span of about 15 weeks, pissing off the rest of the world comes with a hefty price tag when your key problem is you're not doing enough business and ex ante positive aggregate trade to generate the performance indices you want to see.

Australia .... 25 consecutive quarters without recession ... longest in the history of the world of all finance. Mainly because you need two consecutive quarters of market contraction in a row to have a textbook recession. So by that logic, 27 consecutive quarters at the bare minimum of being recession free. But the reality of that recession free period is starting to dwindle.

Certainly the Australian government has done a lot of good things over that time period to keep the ball rolling. Certainly there was a whole lot of smart policy. But all good things come to an end, and for increasing numbers of Australians it already has. But sure as shit, I grew up during both the Black Tuesday Collapse and the Asian Financial Crisis ... the latter we recovered quickly due to expedient political action, but the former was devastating and it took all my childhood to recover ....

In fact the picture of our recession free period is somewhat of a fallacy because the mid 90s still sucked. They just got progressively better as time went on. My second job I worked more hours than the France's beloved 35 hour week ... at a restaurant. 6-7 nights a week at the age of 12. And that was common to have an afterschool job. Paid only USD$2.25 per hour back then as a child labourer.

No overtime. No holidays. No benefits.

I still had to register tax because the government will always want its pound of flesh.

Crippling private debt (but very low public debt admittedly) ... staggering land prices ... wage growth stagnation ... increasing coss of living ... diminishing full time employment advertising ... more people having to work multiple jobs to get by ... reduced retail spending ... All indicative of a marketplace that has reached peak consumption capacity. Only so long a nation can keep spending money it doesn't have because people have a limit of debt they can take on.

This is a fact of life.

And sure, when we end up like France is now many of us will be angry. Particularly the young. But most of us will acceptthat a generation going without at least 3 recessions under their belt is a generation that has never existed in the last 200 years. And honestly I think looking at the French demographics of voters that is patently clear. Those with more years they've clocked up are those who accept the reality of the marketplace as is.

There are alternatives to be sure, but you won't find them under a xenophobic leader unwilling to entertain them. If you don't want to ever havea recession, thereare alternatives ... anarcho/syndicalism (one or both together) ... communism (ish, depends on how much the rest of the world plays ball) ... plenty of alternatives to the capitalist marketplace.

If you want a liberal society with liberal markets, you need to accept that the cost is the occasional recession.

You can't expect all of the good and not pay for it in some way. Anything short of accepting we live in a dynamic world with dynamic demands, with dynamic supply, and thus a dynamic status quo is utopianism. We don't live in a perfect world that will allow that.

You end up like Greece, and leaving the EU won't magically fix that hot mess, either. After all, the key export of Greece now is educated young men and women whohavenothing toloseby starting newlives abroad. Leaving the EU won't change that, either. They'll just go to someplace like Australia assuming we're still kicking the high times ball around by then ...then they'll realize for themselves that they have about three years from the abyss here, as well.

Eventually you have to realize the reality of an Australia in the early to mid 90s and that is the cost of doing business.

System isn't great, and frankly the austerity argument is dumb. Liquidity is useless if none of it is changing hands, and liquidity will change hands faster by volume in the hhands of the poor and working class. Not only that but more of it ends up in domestic banks and retailers. Win-win. Austerity on the otherhand does nothing but create a further braindrain as those who have nothing have no reason to stay in your country. Making it further difficult to resuscitate a marketplace on life support. Anybody that pushes an austerity model isn't worth an iota of your time to consider. But having said that, expecting no drop in living conditions is living in a fairytale.

Addendum_Forthcoming:
Also, bags of milk? How do you even pour it?

You have to buy a special milk jug or pitcher, a la:

We had one when I was a kid that was shaped like the Nesquik rabbit.

You caught hell in my house if you used all the milk and put the jug back empty. There was no way to know until you picked it up.

And God help the man who cuts the corner hole too big and fails to tell his roommates. That stuff'll come flying right outta there.

OT: I don't know much about France's politics but I think this is the decent choice, seeing as how it seems like the rest of the world is slowly shifting to more authoritarian candidates. Not a big fan of that Le Pen character. Any party that has "national" or "front" in their name, much less together, spells trouble.

Chewster:

You have to buy a special milk jug or pitcher, a la:

We had one when I was a kid that was shaped like the Nesquik rabbit.

You caught hell in my house if you used all the milk and put the jug back empty. There was no way to know until you picked it up.

And God help the man who cuts the corner hole too big and fails to tell his roommates.

I was picturing some self sealing bag. Like a ziplock function. How do you stop contaminants getting inside and spoiling? I mean I can understand families going through a litre+ of milk a day with cereal and coffee, but what if you're single? Seems like a pain in the arse if you have smaller quantities.

After 10 years outsidethe military, I've become as overly sanitized as any regular Westerner, and I get I'm probably making a fuss over nothing ... but I wouldn't trust a litre or two of milk that's just been left open sitting in the fridge.

I'd start imagining phantom tastes each time I put warm, cooked food in the fridge and the radiating particles of that seeping into it. You know ... how if you put regular tablewine into another bottle, and even official taste testers will tell you it's different andhow one has 'hints of pear and apple' in one merlot over another, or some other bullshit like that?

Kind of surprised of how much the milk bag thing derailed the thread.

In any case...

Macron supposedly just betrayed Bayrou by positioning LREM candidates in a SHITLOAD of circumscription he promised to the MoDem. This might seriously bite him in the ass, as Bayrou was Macron's earliest and most important backer, the MoDem's 5% share of voters presumably going to him after Bayrou dropped out for his benefit. Take away even half of that 5%, and Macron suddenly doesn't make the cut for second round here and there, and Bayrou might very well make off with the seats the MoDef won and refuse to cooperate with Macron in creating a government.

This might be big, lads.

Also, enjoying seeing Valls be rejected by LREM only for the PS to announce that they'll expel him. A fit punishment for a traitor.

Sonmi:
Kind of surprised of how much the milk bag thing derailed the thread.

How could you be????!

Sonmi:
Macron supposedly just betrayed Bayrou by positioning LREM candidates in a SHITLOAD of circumscription he promised to the MoDem. This might seriously bite him in the ass, as Bayrou was Macron's earliest and most important backer, the MoDem's 5% share of voters presumably going to him after Bayrou dropped out for his benefit. Take away even half of that 5%, and Macron suddenly doesn't make the cut for second round here and there, and Bayrou might very well make off with the seats the MoDef won and refuse to cooperate with Macron in creating a government.

This might be big, lads.

I'm reading about it now but it certainly seems like a misstep on Macron's part to alienate any of his political allies. The legislative elections won't turn out like the presidency; he'll need to build a coalition if he wants to govern at all.

The Lunatic:

Silvanus:

You can indeed be against both. Zontar, however, is not, and he frequently comments on British politics. You'll notice that this started because he singled out Labour specifically as the "pro-corporation" party.

I think you should probably let Zontar speak for himself. You know what they say about assuming.

Baffle2:
I think he's just confused because our left and right use the opposite colours to the US. I know I almost voted for Trump by mistake.

God knows why the Lib Dems chose yellow though. Yellow?! Would've preferred grey, but John Major already nailed that (I'm old enough to remember Spitting Image (and having nightmares about the Thatcher puppet)).

Honestly, our political system must seem pretty confusing to outsiders. I don't even think most of the natives get it, I'm not even sure I do, honestly.

Red for Labour makes sense, given you know... Socialism and all that. Not sure where Blue came from.

UKIP is purple as their primary role is converting Labour voters into Tories.

Every single other nationalist party uses Red, White and Blue, or some combination thereof, because they're all terribly original.

Green uses green, because they're green. Also, nobody hates green, it's an incredibly inoffensive colour.

SNP And Lib dems using orange and yellow is an odd choice though.

The last thing I think of when I think Scotland is anything as bright as yellow. A murky brown-green-grey might be more appropriate.

Norway has similar colours, only no purple and different meanings for green and yellow. the green parties are blandly innofensive centrists while the yellow one is weakly offensive like a faded tea stain on a shirt that is annoying but not sufficiently annoying to wash off

bastardofmelbourne:

Sonmi:
Kind of surprised of how much the milk bag thing derailed the thread.

How could you be????!

I genuinely thought it was a well-known factoid... I mean, it even became a semi-popular meme back in the mid-2000's.

image

bastardofmelbourne:
I'm reading about it now but it certainly seems like a misstep on Macron's part to alienate any of his political allies. The legislative elections won't turn out like the presidency; he'll need to build a coalition if he wants to govern at all.

True.

What I'm thinking though is that he feels he might not need Bayrou's help to form a government at all, that he'll likely simply form a cabinet with milquetoast Republicains and his own candidates. Giving that much influence to Bayrou (which he probably sees as an opportunist) might have blown up in his face had they had a falling out later.

Did Bayrou candidate actually have a shoot at winning in those circumscription? If you don't present candidate in favor of someone who's just going to lose anyway that doesn't make much sense...

Meiam:
Did Bayrou candidate actually have a shoot at winning in those circumscription? If you don't present candidate in favor of someone who's just going to lose anyway that doesn't make much sense...

Bayrou's candidates would have officially had the backing of Macron and EM/REM, so yeah, they would have likely had about just as much chance to win those circumscriptions, they'd be getting their mandate under Macron's program.

That might change now though, and Bayrou/Macron seem to be threatening each other with propping candidates in each others' circumscriptions, even if it leads to neither of them winning.

Also, Philippot just threatened he'd quit the FN if the plan to abandon the euro is abandoned.

Seems like the FN split is getting more and more likely.

Sonmi:

Frission:
I like to avoid anglophone discussion of the elections. It just tires me and I can't muster the energy for much in these forums.

Still, I'm extremely happy.

Y'a rien qui t'empeche de parler francais, tu sais?

Bof, le forum est en anglais. Il y a rien qui me force non plus a causer en francais. (Satane de Forum ne montre pas les accents).

Actually one thing that I avoid mentioned in the French forums is how disappointed I am at the Insoumis (The "Far-left). I was for Hamon, but I was more than happy to bar the Far-Right, so their extreme rate of abstentation has collapsed any trust I had in them.

It seems that this is no longer a situation of the left vs the right, but the center vs extremists for much of the world.

Frission:
Actually one thing that I avoid mentioned in the French forums is how disappointed I am at the Insoumis (The "Far-left). I was for Hamon, but I was more than happy to bar the Far-Right, so their extreme rate of abstentation has collapsed any trust I had in them.

It seems that this is no longer a situation of the left vs the right, but the center vs extremists for much of the world.

Both Macron and Le Pen are polar opposites of what Melchenons ideology stands for, just in different directions.

Frission:
Actually one thing that I avoid mentioned in the French forums is how disappointed I am at the Insoumis (The "Far-left). I was for Hamon, but I was more than happy to bar the Far-Right, so their extreme rate of abstentation has collapsed any trust I had in them.

It seems that this is no longer a situation of the left vs the right, but the center vs extremists for much of the world.

Le Pen wasn't going to win, with or without the support of the Insoumis.

Abstentionism is perfectly valid in this case.

If you truly want to blame anyone for Le Pen's score, blame the Frontistes, NDA, and the Republicains that jumped ship and supported her. The witch hunt for abstentionists was (and still is) rather absurd.

If Melenchon had called to vote for Le Pen, you'd have a point, but practically none of his supporters voted for her (and accelerationsism is frowned upon in the Insoumis circles), to pretend that there is an alliance of the extremes is intellectually disingenuous.

Sonmi:

Frission:
Actually one thing that I avoid mentioned in the French forums is how disappointed I am at the Insoumis (The "Far-left). I was for Hamon, but I was more than happy to bar the Far-Right, so their extreme rate of abstentation has collapsed any trust I had in them.

It seems that this is no longer a situation of the left vs the right, but the center vs extremists for much of the world.

Le Pen wasn't going to win, with or without the support of the Insoumis.

Abstentionism is perfectly valid in this case.

If you truly want to blame anyone for Le Pen's score, blame the Frontistes, NDA, and the Republicains that jumped ship and supported her. The witch hunt for abstentionists was (and still is) rather absurd.

If Melenchon had called to vote for Le Pen, you'd have a point, but practically none of his supporters voted for her (and accelerationsism is frowned upon in the Insoumis circles), to pretend that there is an alliance of the extremes is intellectually disingenuous.

Do you think that absolves the Insoumis of any fault?

Many has their share of blame, but trying to shift the blame to them is just as much intellectually disingenuous.

I've heard directly from the vote of the Insoumis how they think Macron and Le Pen is the same, it's not an alliance of the extremes, I won't pretend there's anything but antipathy between the FN and them, but it's a breaking up of any connection between the center and the Insoumis.

Notice how I specify only the Insoumis, because the Communists joined and admonished Melenchon about it.

EDIT: This issue doesn't merit a witchhunt, it's something that had little effect in the elections and I don't think it's worth ruining any relations with any Insoumis I know by arguing about this with them, but remember that if you believe that abstentionism was a valid political statement, than there are those like I who will disagree with that statement.

Frission:

Sonmi:

Frission:
Actually one thing that I avoid mentioned in the French forums is how disappointed I am at the Insoumis (The "Far-left). I was for Hamon, but I was more than happy to bar the Far-Right, so their extreme rate of abstentation has collapsed any trust I had in them.

It seems that this is no longer a situation of the left vs the right, but the center vs extremists for much of the world.

Le Pen wasn't going to win, with or without the support of the Insoumis.

Abstentionism is perfectly valid in this case.

If you truly want to blame anyone for Le Pen's score, blame the Frontistes, NDA, and the Republicains that jumped ship and supported her. The witch hunt for abstentionists was (and still is) rather absurd.

If Melenchon had called to vote for Le Pen, you'd have a point, but practically none of his supporters voted for her (and accelerationsism is frowned upon in the Insoumis circles), to pretend that there is an alliance of the extremes is intellectually disingenuous.

Do you think that absolves the Insoumis of any fault?

Many has their share of blame, but trying to shift the blame to them is just as much intellectually disingenuous.

I've heard directly from the vote of the Insoumis how they think Macron and Le Pen is the same, it's not an alliance of the extremes, I won't pretend there's an alliance, but it's a breaking up of any connection between the center and the Insoumis.

Notice how I specify only the Insoumis, because the Communists joined and admonished Melenchon about it.

That's the thing though, Macron is not "the center" as center is completely relative, vague, really doesn't mean anything. It's a marketing label to try to unite as many people as possible while not antagonizing anyone else too much. But Macron represents yet another extreme: extreme liberalism (both of the market and the social variants). By rejecting REM, Melenchon and his Insoumis are not rejecting "the center", they are rejecting rampant liberalism, and only in the event that the FN has no chance to get into power whatsoever.

When Melenchon complains about Le Pen being used as a scarecrow to have people fall in line, he's not wrong. That's what she is, a scarecrow, one that is completely toothless and that has no chance to get into power at the moment, but one that might grow stronger and become a genuine threat should the ruling party fail to placate the French electorate, and as Macron stated himself, should the EU not change to accommodate the French in the following years.

EDIT: Add to that the (imo futile) attempt of Philippot at reforming the FN into a left-ish party, and you might even have an argument for the FN being further to the left than Macron as far as economic policies go, that's not something to dismiss entirely, though I think it'll lead to the FN imploding due to factionalism and lack of ideological consistency.

The FN is now propping up a candidate against Dupont-Aignan in l'Essonne... well, that alliance was short-lived.

Sonmi:

That's the thing though, Macron is not "the center" as center is completely relative, vague, really doesn't mean anything. It's a marketing label to try to unite as many people as possible while not antagonizing anyone else too much. But Macron represents yet another extreme: extreme liberalism (both of the market and the social variants). By rejecting REM, Melenchon and his Insoumis are not rejecting "the center", they are rejecting rampant liberalism, and only in the event that the FN has no chance to get into power whatsoever.

When Melenchon complains about Le Pen being used as a scarecrow to have people fall in line, he's not wrong. That's what she is, a scarecrow, one that is completely toothless and that has no chance to get into power at the moment, but one that might grow stronger and become a genuine threat should the ruling party fail to placate the French electorate, and as Macron stated himself, should the EU not change to accommodate the French in the following years.

EDIT: Add to that the (imo futile) attempt of Philippot at reforming the FN into a left-ish party, and you might even have an argument for the FN being further to the left than Macron as far as economic policies go, that's not something to dismiss entirely, though I think it'll lead to the FN imploding due to factionalism and lack of ideological consistency.

Perhaps, we'll see how the next five years will go. Hopefully the reforms will help stabilize the political situation. I think you're underestimating how much distaste many have for the FN, and I would rather go with the Insoumis than let any of the Le Pens into power,.

Also, Macron seems to have chosen Philippe as his new First Minister. Since he's done with absorbing much of the PS, it looks like he's trying to do the same with the R?publicains. Marketing label as "center" may be, it's a useful term to describe the current political situation.

Sonmi:
The FN is now propping up a candidate against Dupont-Aignan in l'Essonne... well, that alliance was short-lived.

Avoir fait alliance avec le FN ca la fout mal pour un "Gaulliste".

Frission:
Perhaps, we'll see how the next five years will go. Hopefully the reforms will help stabilize the political situation. I think you're underestimating how much distaste many have for the FN, and I would rather go with the Insoumis than let any of the Le Pens into power,.

Also, Macron seems to have chosen Philippe as his new First Minister. Since he's done with absorbing much of the PS, it looks like he's trying to do the same with the R?publicains. Marketing label as "center" may be, it's a useful term to describe the current political situation.

Older people have a distaste for the FN. The youth supports them more and more, if the economical prospect for the young keeps going the way it is, the FN will only keep getting stronger while the older population that supports establishment candidates (and Macron) progressively die out. People are angry, things need to change, and everything seems to point towards Macron being a candidate of the status quo.

Honestly, there's only so much "unification' that Macron can do. There's one point after which the "left" wing of his party will stop tolerating his creeps towards the right wing.

Frission:
Avoir fait alliance avec le FN ca la fout mal pour un "Gaulliste".

Le FN ne represente absolument rien au niveau ideologique de toute facon. C'etait tout simplement une alliance pragmatique entre deux partis racistes, rien de plus.

Sonmi:

Frission:
Perhaps, we'll see how the next five years will go. Hopefully the reforms will help stabilize the political situation. I think you're underestimating how much distaste many have for the FN, and I would rather go with the Insoumis than let any of the Le Pens into power,.

Also, Macron seems to have chosen Philippe as his new First Minister. Since he's done with absorbing much of the PS, it looks like he's trying to do the same with the R?publicains. Marketing label as "center" may be, it's a useful term to describe the current political situation.

Older people have a distaste for the FN. The youth supports them more and more, if the economical prospect for the young keeps going the way it is, the FN will only keep getting stronger while the older population that supports establishment candidates (and Macron) progressively die out. People are angry, things need to change, and everything seems to point towards Macron being a candidate of the status quo.

Honestly, there's only so much "unification' that Macron can do. There's one point after which the "left" wing of his party will stop tolerating his creeps towards the right wing.

Yes, the youth that go straight for the fascist party, while the older voters with more experience know them for what they are.

Change, change that's all I hear, but when it comes to actual substantive policies there's very little. Throw out the "foreigners" including citizens, cut down the EU, who cares if that undercuts the very rights of the republic, or destroys our economy? I can't fathom how they'll think that will solve their problems. Does the UK look like it's solved it's problem, or has it created a worse crisis as it enters into a Tory single state.

I agree, there are problems that have to be solved, but this bowing to the demand of anger has to go. Anger is an obstacle to rationality and good decision making.

EDIT: I'm not saying this anger doesn't exist, but it shouldn't be allowed to dominate political discussions.

Sonmi:

Older people have a distaste for the FN. The youth supports them more and more, if the economical prospect for the young keeps going the way it is, the FN will only keep getting stronger while the older population that supports establishment candidates (and Macron) progressively die out. People are angry, things need to change, and everything seems to point towards Macron being a candidate of the status quo.

Honestly, there's only so much "unification' that Macron can do. There's one point after which the "left" wing of his party will stop tolerating his creeps towards the right wing.

But the majority of youth still went Macron. So what that should tell anyone that FN does not enjoy any sort of base. They have a cross demographic discord with the people. Take for instance Australia. Basically the only states that gave One Nation and Christian retards like Family First support (yes, clinically retarded as per research into the primary groups that propped them up) were exclusively in places like South Australia and Queensland.

Places with statistically less academic options and suffering the most by the continued degrading of menial labour with inappropriate welfare subsidisation.

It's like in the U.S... the places that require more federal aid are more likely to vote in state reps that are inimical to their social, educational and physiological wellbeing. Idiots will idiot. This has been proven time and again. All Macron has to do, as statistically seen in many other Western countries, is improve education standards and create demand for higher skilled domestic labour and, almost magically, start eroding groups like Family First, FN and One Nation.

Progressive tax systems to bolster spending in education ... and by dint, demand for higher skilled labour. The 'Trump effect' is powered solely either by the U.S. having Democrats almost as inimical to progressive taxation and social project spending as their Republican counterparts... that voting Independent became a matter of principle, not rational self-interest... and those that are already wealthy... well fuck it, country (and the world) would burn with the average Democrat anyways. Might as well get a tax cut out of it.

I mean what actual policies did Marine promote that actually made sense? She screamed about French industries first, and removing themselves from yhe EU... but neglected to explain how much industries could expect in additional productivity in these regards. Who will be buying? Where will they get the skilled labour? How much extra will they be paying on pan-European trade if there is a trade war? What about the Canadian free trade deal that has been in the works of which the French are going to need to promote North American market access?

Where the fuck were these concerns in any of her talks? ... (Sufficiently translated into English, I don't speak French so I am willing to concede I might have missed crucial information...)

Macron talked about Canada. He taljed about trade. He talked about labour compromises. He talked about effective environmental standards. He talked plainly about commitments overseas.

I don't agree with much of his vision. Particularly corporate taxation and France's role in Mali, Syria and beyond... in fact I agree with FN's stance that interventionism is a stupid policy, and we know 'modrrate Syrian rebels' have used chemical weapons *repeatedly* but the West refuses to accept that selling weapons to brutal Wahhabist terrorists that cut out Christians' hearts and eat them is somehow a bad idea... you know, like how we gave weapons and CIA training to the Taliban? People forget that onetime Afghanistan was a socialist, secular country... but apparently supporting multinational Sunni extremism and druglords was (and is) all the rage ... How well did that turn out, again? ... but at least Macron talked about it.

Not spout intellectually barren rhetoric.

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