Your thoughts on The US Healthcare System

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I would have made the title longer but I wanted to keep it simple. You know what, I want to ask two very simply but could be loaded questions.

Your thoughts on the Healthcare System in the US?

Why do many shun the idea of something affordable for those sick and poor?

Additional, what are your thoughts on the current governments handling and proposal for the ACA?

The more horror stories and stories in general I hear coming out of "The Greatest Nation on Earth", the more I wonder why certainly politicians just despise the poor getting treated to where it doesn't cost them their home.

I am from the UK and no the NHS is not perfect but I am so glad that it's still around today and in the past helped my previous partner with a serious medical condition she had been suffering with since her childhood. The thought of not treating someone because they do not have enough money is just heartbreaking to me. I saw Kimmel's speech about his son earlier and one thing is very clear. Healthcare shouldn't be a political ping pong match between any group. This is not a game. Egos shouldn't come into play here.

Update: Well it looks like things just got more difficult.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-39809168

http://edition.cnn.com/2017/05/04/politics/health-care-vote/index.html

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2017/05/04/obamacare-replacement-bill-approved-in-house.html

http://www.nbcnews.com/politics/congress/house-poised-pass-gop-health-care-bill-n754801

https://www.apnews.com/35075bdebad843c9a131d23ebd742a28/Trump-celebrates-health-vote-win-with-jubilant-Republicans

Didn't we have the thread already? Anyways, I can only answer one question from my knowledge:

Parasondox:

Why do many shun the idea of something affordable for those sick and poor?

I remember that some people just do not like paying healthcare for themselves since they believe their chance to actually get sick is small and they'll just waste their cash. Besides that in general people don't like paying more taxes to sponsor others people's medical treatments.

Also isn't UK healthcare notoriously unresponsive?

Companies can not be trusted to run such a vital service. Their approach to anything is how to minimize costs and maximize profits, and that is a fatally dangerous approach when dealing with human lives. Look at how things were before 2010, hell, just look at the new draft of Trumpcare. People with pre-existing conditions, the people who need healthcare the most, are left with no help at all. And it's not even only people with medical conditions, but also victims of domestic abuse and rape. in short, inhumane

inu-kun:

Also isn't UK healthcare notoriously unresponsive?

Unresponsive as in? If you mean crippled then the Tories at the moment are in favour of privatisation and playing a dangerous game with it.

inu-kun:
Besides that in general people don't like paying more taxes to sponsor others people's medical treatments.

Which is a stupid argument, because what do you think insurance is?

The US healthcare system serves a purpose by showing the rest of the world what happens when a healthcare system is privatised. The political failure of healthcare reform, other than Medicare, shows the result of a populace that does not wants their fellow countryman to get better at their own expense. This even lets the Republican party get away with opposing their own healthcare policy. This also serves as a warning about the dangers of such a national attitude.

Long may the Americans hate each other. It is both a source of cheap amusement and political warning.

This is what you get for sticking with the American Dream. If you can't afford healthcare, it's because you didn't work hard enough. Duh...

inu-kun:
Also isn't UK healthcare notoriously unresponsive?

The NHS is lousy if you are going in about an achy toe or some such minor bullshit. If you have an urgent, lifethreatening issue, they are possibly the best in the world at getting you seen to quickly and with little hassle.

It doesn't mean that they don't fuck up occasionally, but every health service does. And overworking and underpaying people simultaneously ain't great for keeping them focused.

Parasondox:

inu-kun:

Also isn't UK healthcare notoriously unresponsive?

Unresponsive as in? If you mean crippled then the Tories at the moment are in favour of privatisation and playing a dangerous game with it.

Waiting times mainly, https://www.ft.com/content/7ac0561a-88de-11dc-84c9-0000779fd2ac (just the first thing that came up from google). I think the easy access leads to the huge demand rather than privatisation and the system just can't cope.

BeetleManiac:

inu-kun:
Besides that in general people don't like paying more taxes to sponsor others people's medical treatments.

Which is a stupid argument, because what do you think insurance is?

Paying more than it will cost for you (by average) in hopes to need it in the future? Paying insurance is different than paying taxes to cover health costs of, for example, heart problems for morbidly obese or cancer treatments for chain smokers, both cases the people are the main cause of their problems.

Shit and about to get shittier

I think House Republicans just voted to kill a bunch of people. Fuck Paul Ryan in his smarmy, weaselly face.

inu-kun:
Paying more than it will cost for you (by average) in hopes to need it in the future? Paying insurance is different than paying taxes to cover health costs of, for example, heart problems for morbidly obese or cancer treatments for chain smokers, both cases the people are the main cause of their problems.

Your arrogance in thinking that you have a right to decide who lives and who dies aside, you're wrong. Again.

Insurance is a pool. Did you honestly believe that your premiums were going into a private account for you exclusively? The difference between socialized health insurance and private is the former doesn't need to turn a profit or justify lavish overhead for a CEO who only cares about getting a big enough Christmas bonus to install that in-ground pool in the shape of his penis.

Now that the Republican bill has cleared one stage of its journey to becoming law, basically what erttheking said. =P Also worth noting that there are reports that this newest incarnation of the bill has been, if anything, rushed even more aggressively than the last, without even time for the CBO to make a report on it, and suggestions that some representatives didn't even get a chance to see the sodding thing before it went to vote. They needed reportedly scraped by the vote, and so if there's a silver lining, it's that the bill still has to get through the Senate. The Republican majority there is actually even thinner than the one they enjoyed for this vote, so still a chance it'll get clogged in the drain next month.

And if it goes through all the way... well, at that point I can only express enthusiastic hope that doing this gets the Republicans thrown out ass over elbows.

Out of curiosity, when the bill passed, did it STILL contain the exemptions these asshats had left in to ensure their own health coverage (Representatives and their staff,) remained fully intact? Because all signs I could find point to yes.

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/5/4/15542314/republican-health-plan-loophole-exemption

SeventhSigil:
Out of curiosity, when the bill passed, did it STILL contain the exemptions these asshats had left in to ensure their own health coverage (Representatives and their staff,) remained fully intact? Because all signs I could find point to yes.

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/5/4/15542314/republican-health-plan-loophole-exemption

Yup. Fancy that. Socialized medicine: good enough for millionaires, but poor people can fuck off and die.

Insidious.

BeetleManiac:

SeventhSigil:
Out of curiosity, when the bill passed, did it STILL contain the exemptions these asshats had left in to ensure their own health coverage (Representatives and their staff,) remained fully intact? Because all signs I could find point to yes.

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/5/4/15542314/republican-health-plan-loophole-exemption

Yup. Fancy that. Socialized medicine: good enough for millionaires, but poor people can fuck off and die.

Yup. ...I'm going to go watch a movie or two now. -_-

BeetleManiac:

inu-kun:
Paying more than it will cost for you (by average) in hopes to need it in the future? Paying insurance is different than paying taxes to cover health costs of, for example, heart problems for morbidly obese or cancer treatments for chain smokers, both cases the people are the main cause of their problems.

Your arrogance in thinking that you have a right to decide who lives and who dies aside, you're wrong. Again.

Insurance is a pool. Did you honestly believe that your premiums were going into a private account for you exclusively? The difference between socialized health insurance and private is the former doesn't need to turn a profit or justify lavish overhead for a CEO who only cares about getting a big enough Christmas bonus to install that in-ground pool in the shape of his penis.

I'm not saying it's my opinion. But regardless, it's not outlandish to demand that if a person intentionally does something that gets him ill he should pay for the treatment out of his own money. No one "decides" he will die, just owe money.

Socialized health insurance has the problems of needing tax payer money and not needing to actually be efficient like businesses are. It's not a black and white scenario where one is inherently superior to the other and needing to get your own insurance at a higher price can be said to be superior to waiting 6 months for an important surgery.

inu-kun:
I'm not saying it's my opinion. But regardless, it's not outlandish to demand that if a person intentionally does something that gets him ill he should pay for the treatment out of his own money. No one "decides" he will die, just owe money.

Unless you say it's someone else's opinion, it's yours. Own it.

Socialized health insurance has the problems of needing tax payer money and not needing to actually be efficient like businesses are. It's not a black and white scenario where one is inherently superior to the other and needing to get your own insurance at a higher price can be said to be superior to waiting 6 months for an important surgery.

Did you just say that businesses are efficient? Is that why over 90% go bankrupt within the first 12 months? Is it efficient for corporate executives to rack up lavish expenses for their own luxury and give themselves bonuses because they want one? Is it efficient to concentrate wealth and power into an elite, privileged minority? Is Trump's habit of marketing bargain bin crap as luxury items for outrageous markups efficient?

I am far less concerned with efficiency than I am with effectiveness. They are entirely separate things and most businesses are neither. Efficiency simply seeks to remove the perception of over-complication, and the reality of most business efficiency models only ends up creating an even more broken system that's even more complicated than when it started, the boss just has to learn fewer people's names. Effectiveness on the other hand focuses on results, not appearances.

And in regards to "paying more for your own insurance," not only I can not do that, but under Trumpcare my mother, who is a cancer survivor who gave birth to me through a C-section would be denied all coverage because those would be pre-existing conditions and the Republicans think it's okay to discriminate against people.

Society doesn't work when everyone's only out for themselves.

inu-kun:

Parasondox:

inu-kun:

Also isn't UK healthcare notoriously unresponsive?

Unresponsive as in? If you mean crippled then the Tories at the moment are in favour of privatisation and playing a dangerous game with it.

Waiting times mainly, https://www.ft.com/content/7ac0561a-88de-11dc-84c9-0000779fd2ac (just the first thing that came up from google). I think the easy access leads to the huge demand rather than privatisation and the system just can't cope.

Yeah the wait time has gotten worse. If you book an appointment with your GP today, wont see them for another two weeks. I rarely go Docs but those who go the most are elderly and young kids.

Jux:
I think House Republicans just voted to kill a bunch of people. Fuck Paul Ryan in his smarmy, weaselly face.

But hey, Jux> The United States of America is still the greatest nation on the planet, baby!!

USA! USA!! USA!!! USA!!!! USA!!!!!

Nah i shouldnt joke. This is tragic shit that people on social are saying its all good. Like, WAKE UP PEOPLE!! The rich is fucking you over.

Parasondox:

Your thoughts on the Healthcare System in the US?

We need universal health care. Costs are too expensive, and despite our services being some of if not the best in the world we have a system that costs hospitals and patients thousands more than devices cost due to massive markups. This isn't helped by med school being insanely expensive too.

Why do many shun the idea of something affordable for those sick and poor?

Because they don't seem to realise that's basically what insurance does, and they seem to run on the idea that anything involving the government is automatically bad. They seem to think that corporate insurance wants their best interest while government insurance is giving the government control of their health. And they don't see the contradiction.

Additional, what are your thoughts on the current governments handling and proposal for the ACA?

Every single one of the people voting for Ryan's bill are massive hypocrites. They have a fantastic plan paid for by tax dollars while the populace have to make due with whatever they can get. I would honestly consider them evil.

Im a socialist. That should say enough I think.

Parasondox:

Why do many shun the idea of something affordable for those sick and poor?

Up until today, I genuinely felt badly for the sick and poor in America. Afterwards, just no. They truly deserve everything they get.

Whenever I hear the "I'm not going to pay for the treatment of those who deserve to be sick" argument, I just get a big headache.

jademunky:

Parasondox:

Why do many shun the idea of something affordable for those sick and poor?

Up until today, I genuinely felt badly for the sick and poor in America. Afterwards, just no. They truly deserve everything they get.

It's not everyone's fault we got these pieces of shit in congress

jademunky:

Parasondox:

Why do many shun the idea of something affordable for those sick and poor?

Up until today, I genuinely felt badly for the sick and poor in America. Afterwards, just no. They truly deserve everything they get.

Wait. Why?

Parasondox:

jademunky:

Parasondox:

Why do many shun the idea of something affordable for those sick and poor?

Up until today, I genuinely felt badly for the sick and poor in America. Afterwards, just no. They truly deserve everything they get.

Wait. Why?

They voted for this, they DEMANDED this. Not all of them but more than enough of them to ensure that all 3 levels of federal government would be dedicated to ensure that exactly this current situation would happen and continue to be the new norm for the forseeable future.

How long can you continue to sympathize with someone hellbent on their own suffering?

The Decapitated Centaur:

jademunky:

Parasondox:

Why do many shun the idea of something affordable for those sick and poor?

Up until today, I genuinely felt badly for the sick and poor in America. Afterwards, just no. They truly deserve everything they get.

It's not everyone's fault we got these pieces of shit in congress

Not everyone's, but those who would benefit the most from government health coverage seem to hate the very idea, at least until it begins to have an effect on their own lives.

jademunky:

The Decapitated Centaur:

jademunky:

Up until today, I genuinely felt badly for the sick and poor in America. Afterwards, just no. They truly deserve everything they get.

It's not everyone's fault we got these pieces of shit in congress

Not everyone's, but those who would benefit the most from government health coverage seem to hate the very idea, at least until it begins to have an effect on their own lives.

A lot of those in certain states that went Trump are poor and could use it, sure, but there's a lot of people in general just with pre-existing health conditions etc

inu-kun:
I remember that some people just do not like paying healthcare for themselves since they believe their chance to actually get sick is small and they'll just waste their cash. Besides that in general people don't like paying more taxes to sponsor others people's medical treatments.

Anyone going around bitching about "freedom of choice" and all that jazz simply doesn't understand how insurance pools work, which I'll be explaining further below.

inu-kun:
Waiting times mainly, https://www.ft.com/content/7ac0561a-88de-11dc-84c9-0000779fd2ac (just the first thing that came up from google). I think the easy access leads to the huge demand rather than privatisation and the system just can't cope.

You need a subscription to view that article.

You know, if I had to choose between a system where everybody can get access to healthcare but the waits can be excessive for things that aren't emergencies[1], or a system where not only are waits for non-emergencies excessive but millions of poor and sick people can't afford treatment, I'd have to go with the first choice. And it's not because I'm a high-risk patient (because I'm not, unless I get cancer, pregnant, or raped). It's because I care about other people being able to live.

BeetleManiac:
Paying more than it will cost for you (by average) in hopes to need it in the future? Paying insurance is different than paying taxes to cover health costs of, for example, heart problems for morbidly obese or cancer treatments for chain smokers, both cases the people are the main cause of their problems.

Let me tell you a little story about high-risk patients and insurance.

Before the ACA, people with pre-existing conditions or people who were extremely sick were in a category health insurers called "high-risk patients." Insurers did not offer their regular plans to these people, instead offering them special high-risk plans which came at an even higher cost. A cost which many couldn't afford because guess what--being really sick usually means you don't have a lot of money sitting around. The reason they didn't allow high-risk patients into their regular plans was because, naturally, they'd be paying more money out to these people. Keeping them in separate pools kept the prices for the regular plans lower.

So when the ACA came around and said insurers HAD to offer all of their plans to high-risk patients, that meant the cost of the standard price pools were going to rise. As you mentioned before, many were taking an extremely risky gamble on their health by not being insured (which meant they also weren't going in for regular checkups, so any slow-developing problems went unnoticed, but that's another story for another day). So in order to help lower the costs, the ACA also required EVERYBODY to get insurance, penalizing those who didn't. The logic was simple--to balance out all the new high-risk patients flocking for insurance, increase the number of normal-risk patients in the pool as well.

Yeah yeah, penalizing people for not having insurance goes against "freedom" and all that jazz. But the ramifications of people who don't want insurance having to get it are much more palatable to me than the ramifications of people who desperately need medical treatment not being able to afford it.

It wasn't perfect by any means, but the negative reactions were generally "Waaah this is costing me money," and the positive reactions were generally "Yay I can afford this life-saving medical treatment now."

The ACA helped the people who are in most need of healthcare be able to get it. No it wasn't perfect, but it was a step in the right direction. And if nothing else it's given people a taste of what it's like for healthcare to be a right for all, not a privilege reserved for the rich.

[1] Which is exactly the same as the US--a coworker of mine spent 5 hours in the ER just to get some cellulitis looked at. He'd gone to a walk-in clinic first, but they told him to go to the ER because he has diabetes and there might be complications. In truth they were just a cheap-ass clinic who wouldn't treat anybody if they had any pre-existing condition that might be a liability on them.

I don't know. I know it's a mess. But I'm not sure how one unpacks and fixes the entire system, with things at federal and state levels. With nearly all hospitals (aside from VA hospitals?) as private businesses. With the current interwoven insurance companies. It's a headache. Something like the NHS had the advantage of post WW2 recovery and more simplistic medical costs to begin with.

I work in Australia which has a two-tiered system with public and private, but most things are government subsidized.

However the most important thing (and not just because I work in the field) is primary care. You save so much money in the long run if you can stop people getting sick in the first place, reduce their risks for conditions, or treat them earlier for serious conditions. Something our current government doesn't understand with the medicare freeze on General Practice.

inu-kun:
Also isn't UK healthcare notoriously unresponsive?

Anecdotal but seems to fit right in with all the experiences I hear about the NHS and German health care system.

When I was about 9, I got sick as a dog one night. Trust me mate, it was not pretty. The kind of sick where you throw up until theres nothing but acid coming up. My mom panicked, called the neighbour and took me to the nearest hospital. I threw up another 2 times in the emergency room thingy before 60 minutes later a doctor came out, looked at me once, brushed my stomach with a finger for about 0.2 seconds, jabbed something in my arm and went away again. Everyone was feeling pretty pissed off about it but I was fine a few days later, just a bad case of the flu.

Like 3 weeks ago, I got into a fight and my hand was busted up pretty badly after as there was glass involved. Again, hospital since I was bleeding all over the place. Nurse came out, dipped my hand in disinfectant, patched things up best she could and told me to wait for the doctor to take a look because I might need stitches. I sat there for 90 minutes before eventually telling the person who was with me "Fuck off, I'm going home". (Give me a break here, this was at like 7 in the morning and we had been drinking since the evening before so I could already feel a hangover coming.) Again, bit cheesed off about the whole thing. 90 minutes!

So if you've got a bad case of the flu or get into some stupid shit while drunk, healthcare sure is an unresponsive piece of shit with nightmare waiting times. Heres the thing though. When my trigeminal nerve started acting up? Boom, appointment at a specialist the next day. When I busted my knee at work? Boom, being run through state of the art technology 30 hours later. When my grandma had two heart attacks? NHS right there taking great care of her literally 6 minutes after the first phone call. When two dumbasses with too much alcohol in their veins get each other bloody? Doesn't fucking matter, they both got the tetanus vaccination free of charge a few years earlier.

Half the time when someone cries about Euro healthcare, he or she is butthurt because their ingrown toenail didn't get treated the same day. But when it comes to the serious stuff I really wouldn't trade it for anything else. Although the NHS is taking a bad nosedive at the moment - ironically thats since the tories decided to privatize large sectors of it.

inu-kun:
I'm not saying it's my opinion. But regardless, it's not outlandish to demand that if a person intentionally does something that gets him ill he should pay for the treatment out of his own money. No one "decides" he will die, just owe money.

Socialized health insurance has the problems of needing tax payer money and not needing to actually be efficient like businesses are. It's not a black and white scenario where one is inherently superior to the other and needing to get your own insurance at a higher price can be said to be superior to waiting 6 months for an important surgery.

Yeah... Look man, it needs to be efficient to save lives and individuals need to be efficient to not get fired. Works fine as far as motivation goes.

About that intentionally getting ill thing, I see where you're coming from but its difficult to draw a line. Theres that bug chaser thing where guys get intentionally infected with aids and then spend decades prolonging their lives with insanely expensive medication, like costs-more-in-a-month-than-I-earn-in-a-year expensive. But what about smokers? What about obese people (no one respond to that with any healthy at all sizes bullshit please)? What about forum lurkers who develop heart problems because they spend all day spamming the Escapist instead of jogging? What about that guy who attached a corn cob to a drill and spent an evening picking up his teeth from the floor?

Ex smoker here, pack a day for 6 years. I think its bullshit that I paid all those extra taxes and then some lazy motherfucker on the internet cries about some fraction of his money paying for my eventual lung surgery. Now I don't know about you, but for the vast majority of those folks, whens the last time you think they saw a treadmill? Oh, so you don't want to pay for my lung, but I should pay for your heart disease medication after you were sendentary for 3 decades? Everytime I hear someone bring that line of argument I want to shout at them, which obviously I can't, being out of breath and all.

Bottom line being, how do you really differentiate a person who is responsible for their health problems from a person who isn't. If someone gets health problems because he or she was too lazy to hit the gym or run around the block, well, aren't they just as responsible as a smoker? How do you even prove their lack of exercise if they are? Or do smokers just get shafted for smelling like an ash tray?

It is an issue that is immensely complicated. People thinking that there is a silver bullet are oversimplifying the problem. Personally, we should take steps to alleviate what causes the high costs. High tuition costs, predatory business practices by pharma companies, skyrocketing malpractice insurance costs (also the US government does not have anywhere near the same level protections against lawsuits as other countries).

On note of the AHA, republicans took something they wanted to repeal for years and made it even more of a headache. Congrats.

Ryotknife:
It is an issue that is immensely complicated. People thinking that there is a silver bullet are oversimplifying the problem.

No.

Medicare for all, and allow it to actually negotiate drug prices instead of just taking it on the chin. Single payer works, look at countries that use it if you doubt. Medicare works, take a look at that if you doubt.

The way we've structured healthcare is immensely complicated. Solving it is easy: kill the health insurance companies. Stop worrying about a parasitic industry which adds no value but makes billions in profits on human misery. In the face of single payer, health insurance is obsolete.

There is a simple solution to this problem-- or at least one we've already mapped out pretty well in providing medicare-- it's just opposed by some very wealthy people who would rather make lots of money than solve the problem.

Seanchaidh:

Ryotknife:
It is an issue that is immensely complicated. People thinking that there is a silver bullet are oversimplifying the problem.

No.

Medicare for all, and allow it to actually negotiate drug prices instead of just taking it on the chin. Single payer works, look at countries that use it if you doubt. Medicare works, take a look at that if you doubt.

The way we've structured healthcare is immensely complicated. Solving it is easy: kill the health insurance companies. Stop worrying about a parasitic industry which adds no value but makes billions in profits on human misery. In the face of single payer, health insurance is obsolete.

There is a simple solution to this problem-- or at least one we've already mapped out pretty well in providing medicare-- it's just opposed by some very wealthy people who would rather make lots of money than solve the problem.

One concern is that, at least temporarily, this would lead to massive unemployment as the countless people employed by the private health insurance industry suddenly find themselves all competing for a much smaller pool of jobs in a less redundant system.

jademunky:

Seanchaidh:

Ryotknife:
It is an issue that is immensely complicated. People thinking that there is a silver bullet are oversimplifying the problem.

No.

Medicare for all, and allow it to actually negotiate drug prices instead of just taking it on the chin. Single payer works, look at countries that use it if you doubt. Medicare works, take a look at that if you doubt.

The way we've structured healthcare is immensely complicated. Solving it is easy: kill the health insurance companies. Stop worrying about a parasitic industry which adds no value but makes billions in profits on human misery. In the face of single payer, health insurance is obsolete.

There is a simple solution to this problem-- or at least one we've already mapped out pretty well in providing medicare-- it's just opposed by some very wealthy people who would rather make lots of money than solve the problem.

One concern is that, at least temporarily, this would lead to massive unemployment as the countless people employed by the private health insurance industry suddenly find themselves all competing for a much smaller pool of jobs in a less redundant system.

That's the same argument and defence used when it comes to building weapons we then sell to other nations who uses it for God knows what. "If we stop it, people will lose their jobs". As much as i support employment and against those losing their jobs, some jobs just need to be ended as soon as.

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