Proxy fight in Nebraska: this is "unity"

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FalloutJack:

Sonmi:
Snip

The real question is why did HE focus on Obama? Please direct your questions to the party responsible.

He criticized Obama threads ago, you're the one who brought it up in this thread specifically.

Sonmi:

FalloutJack:

Sonmi:
Snip

The real question is why did HE focus on Obama? Please direct your questions to the party responsible.

He criticized Obama threads ago, you're the one who brought it up in this thread specifically.

Looks to me like he just brought it up now.

FalloutJack:
Looks to me like he just brought it up now.

He brought up a massive problem Obama is merely part of, you're the one bringing up Obama specifically as if that negated his argument.

Sonmi:

FalloutJack:
Looks to me like he just brought it up now.

He brought up a massive problem Obama is merely part of, you're the one bringing up Obama specifically as if that negated his argument.

And to answer the question, as if such a clumsy question needed an answer, I focused on Obama because he received a bribe that was currently in the news. And because I voted for the guy twice.

Sonmi:

FalloutJack:
Looks to me like he just brought it up now.

He brought up a massive problem Obama is merely part of, you're the one bringing up Obama specifically as if that negated his argument.

No, he didn't.

Seanchaidh:

Sonmi:

FalloutJack:
Looks to me like he just brought it up now.

He brought up a massive problem Obama is merely part of, you're the one bringing up Obama specifically as if that negated his argument.

And to answer the question, as if such a clumsy question needed an answer, I focused on Obama because he received a bribe that was currently in the news. And because I voted for the guy twice.

And hey, it's your fault for making a non-argument about a non-president making money that he's allowed to.

FalloutJack:

Sonmi:

FalloutJack:
Looks to me like he just brought it up now.

He brought up a massive problem Obama is merely part of, you're the one bringing up Obama specifically as if that negated his argument.

No, he didn't.

Seanchaidh:

Sonmi:

He brought up a massive problem Obama is merely part of, you're the one bringing up Obama specifically as if that negated his argument.

And to answer the question, as if such a clumsy question needed an answer, I focused on Obama because he received a bribe that was currently in the news. And because I voted for the guy twice.

And hey, it's your fault for making a non-argument about a non-president making money that he's allowed to.

"It's not currently illegal, therefore it's morally and politically fine."

https://www.opensecrets.org/industries/indus.php?Ind=F

FalloutJack:
No, he didn't.

Well...

Seanchaidh:
It's not a conspiracy when it's out in the open and legal. What I've described is how the system works. Politicians serve Wall Street. Politicians get money from Wall Street because Wall Street likes what they do. This is how you get all the pernicious effects of bribery with none of the legal consequences.

Applies to Obama, yes. But it also applies to Secretary Clinton, George Junior, Republicans and Democrats of all shapes and sizes. It's a corrupting bipartisan loophole in the political system.

You're the one to single out Obama as if that suddenly made the whole issue disappear. "Obama is doing it too, so it can't be wrong, am I right?"

Sonmi:
Snip

No, Search did. Look, he's still doing it.

Seanchaidh:
Snip

Although why, I can't imagine. It will literally go nowhere.

What are you guys even talking about anymore?

bastardofmelbourne:
What are you guys even talking about anymore?

Somni? Nothing. Search? Conspiracy theories. Me? Calling him out on that shit.

I know, it's weird. It's like they're not even trying anymore.

bastardofmelbourne:
What are you guys even talking about anymore?

Falloutjack is in his own little world, apparently.

Seanchaidh:
Snip

Says the conspiracy theorist who wants and demands of the political structure, but is unrealistic about how to get it.

You can't bat it away with snide remarks, Search. You messed up.

FalloutJack:

Seanchaidh:
Snip

Says the conspiracy theorist who wants and demands of the political structure, but is unrealistic about how to get it.

You can't bat it away with snide remarks, Search. You messed up.

Money in politics is just a conspiracy theory! Coalition-building isn't how you win elections! Electing people who will actually do what you want instead of being driven by wealthy donors isn't important! Reforming the Democratic Party to align itself with voters and popular issue positions won't help it win in the future!

This and more on FalloutJack's exploration of the Alt-Reality, tonight at 7 eastern, 6 central.

Saelune:

Silentpony:

Saelune:
Lets be honest, non-voters and third party voters are guilty of Trump.

Eh? Dems should have put forward a candidate who could actually win. Dems sent a potato to fight a Kaiju, while the rest of us were in the back wondering why they didn't send a Jaeger. Don't blame us because the potato lost; it had no business being in the fight in the first place.

They could have won if non-voters/third party voters voted for them.

Unless you think we should have put a gun to your head as proper motivation, you chose to do what you did...or did not do.

Thats. On. You.

Let's be frank. None of that matters now that the President Trump has been elected. Neither a gun or shaming were a proper motivation.

CaitSeith:

Saelune:

Silentpony:

Eh? Dems should have put forward a candidate who could actually win. Dems sent a potato to fight a Kaiju, while the rest of us were in the back wondering why they didn't send a Jaeger. Don't blame us because the potato lost; it had no business being in the fight in the first place.

They could have won if non-voters/third party voters voted for them.

Unless you think we should have put a gun to your head as proper motivation, you chose to do what you did...or did not do.

Thats. On. You.

Let's be frank. None of that matters now that the President Trump has been elected. Neither a gun or shaming were a proper motivation.

As long as people keep going "...but Clinton", I will keep going "...actually Trump".

I did not make this topic. I want unity, but alot of people who already were rejecting us, continue to do so in spite of all the things that Trump is doing. That we said he would do if he won. If they want to support Trump through their actions, then I will treat them like I do every other Trump supporter.

If they want to actually work against Trump though, well, I know I will be waiting for them to join us.

Saelune:

CaitSeith:

Saelune:
They could have won if non-voters/third party voters voted for them.

Unless you think we should have put a gun to your head as proper motivation, you chose to do what you did...or did not do.

Thats. On. You.

Let's be frank. None of that matters now that the President Trump has been elected. Neither a gun or shaming were a proper motivation.

As long as people keep going "...but Clinton", I will keep going "...actually Trump".

I did not make this topic. I want unity, but alot of people who already were rejecting us, continue to do so in spite of all the things that Trump is doing. That we said he would do if he won. If they want to support Trump through their actions, then I will treat them like I do every other Trump supporter.

If they want to actually work against Trump though, well, I know I will be waiting for them to join us.

Will you? Will you even be able to do something about the President Trump at that point?

CaitSeith:

Saelune:

CaitSeith:

Let's be frank. None of that matters now that the President Trump has been elected. Neither a gun or shaming were a proper motivation.

As long as people keep going "...but Clinton", I will keep going "...actually Trump".

I did not make this topic. I want unity, but alot of people who already were rejecting us, continue to do so in spite of all the things that Trump is doing. That we said he would do if he won. If they want to support Trump through their actions, then I will treat them like I do every other Trump supporter.

If they want to actually work against Trump though, well, I know I will be waiting for them to join us.

Will you? Will you even be able to do something about the President Trump at that point?

Not as much as I'd like. It has become painstakingly clear that in our "Democracy", The People have no real legal power.

We -should- have done something about this last November. Some of us did. Too many of us did not.

I do not think fighting eachother will help, but I dont think letting those guilty of fucking up thinking it is not significantly on them will help either.

Saelune:
I don't think letting those guilty of fucking up thinking it is not significantly on them will help either.

I disagree. Not totally, but I don't think this is the time to guilt potential allies when they are needed the most. The President Trump is in perpetual campaign mode, keeping the seduction pattern that made him win his supporters.

Seanchaidh:

Sonmi:

FalloutJack:
Looks to me like he just brought it up now.

He brought up a massive problem Obama is merely part of, you're the one bringing up Obama specifically as if that negated his argument.

And to answer the question, as if such a clumsy question needed an answer, I focused on Obama because he received a bribe that was currently in the news. And because I voted for the guy twice.

And what did Obama do to earn that bribe? And what were the effects of his action? And how did that get in the way of having Donald Trump elected president?

CaitSeith:

Seanchaidh:

Sonmi:

He brought up a massive problem Obama is merely part of, you're the one bringing up Obama specifically as if that negated his argument.

And to answer the question, as if such a clumsy question needed an answer, I focused on Obama because he received a bribe that was currently in the news. And because I voted for the guy twice.

And what did Obama do to earn that bribe?

Decline to break up big banks (they're even too-bigger-to-fail now), decline to prosecute any of the securities fraud which caused the global financial crisis, appointed cabinet hand-picked by a Citigroup executive, including a Treasury Secretary and Fed chief which allowed, among other things, Goldman Sachs to do some creative accounting involving Federal reserve assets which allowed them to claim that they'd paid back their TARP loan so that they could escape the conditions which would prevent them from paying huge bonuses to the people who caused the Global Financial Crisis.

And what were the effects of his action?

Huge profits and bonuses to executives that should probably be in prison, no accountability on Wall Street, huge profits, shattered credibility with working classes, huge profits, rise in populism, and oh, did I mention huge profits for Wall Street? Dodd-Frank banking regulations were passed and now Barney Frank is on the board of Signature bank. It's fine, though, no revolving door problem going on in our government.

And how did that get in the way of having Donald Trump elected president?

It... didn't? In fact it may have helped to cause it-- that is to say, the various actions which led to Wall Street being sweet back (as well as the many campaign contributions beforehand) may have, because it severely undercut Democratic Party credibility with people who actually give a shit about the economy working for ordinary people for Obama to be so hot and heavy with Wall Street, and then Hillary Clinton to take money from them as well.

Seanchaidh:

CaitSeith:

Seanchaidh:

And to answer the question, as if such a clumsy question needed an answer, I focused on Obama because he received a bribe that was currently in the news. And because I voted for the guy twice.

And what did Obama do to earn that bribe?

Decline to break up big banks (they're even too-bigger-to-fail now), decline to prosecute any of the securities fraud which caused the global financial crisis, appointed cabinet hand-picked by a Citigroup executive, including a Treasury Secretary and Fed chief which allowed, among other things, Goldman Sachs to do some creative accounting involving Federal reserve assets which allowed them to claim that they'd paid back their TARP loan so that they could escape the conditions which would prevent them from paying huge bonuses to the people who caused the Global Financial Crisis.

And what were the effects of his action?

Huge profits and bonuses to executives that should probably be in prison, no accountability on Wall Street, huge profits, shattered credibility with working classes, huge profits, rise in populism, and oh, did I mention huge profits for Wall Street? Dodd-Frank banking regulations were passed and now Barney Frank is on the board of Signature bank. It's fine, though, no revolving door problem going on in our government.

And how did that get in the way of having Donald Trump elected president?

It... didn't? In fact it may have helped to cause it-- that is to say, the various actions which led to Wall Street being sweet back (as well as the many campaign contributions beforehand) may have, because it severely undercut Democratic Party credibility with people who actually give a shit about the economy working for ordinary people for Obama to be so hot and heavy with Wall Street, and then Hillary Clinton to take money from them as well.

Very insightful. Thank you.

CaitSeith:

Seanchaidh:

Sonmi:

He brought up a massive problem Obama is merely part of, you're the one bringing up Obama specifically as if that negated his argument.

And to answer the question, as if such a clumsy question needed an answer, I focused on Obama because he received a bribe that was currently in the news. And because I voted for the guy twice.

And what did Obama do to earn that bribe? And what were the effects of his action? And how did that get in the way of having Donald Trump elected president?

No way am I going to beg them. Trump could have been stopped. He wasnt.

Saelune:

CaitSeith:

Seanchaidh:

And to answer the question, as if such a clumsy question needed an answer, I focused on Obama because he received a bribe that was currently in the news. And because I voted for the guy twice.

And what did Obama do to earn that bribe? And what were the effects of his action? And how did that get in the way of having Donald Trump elected president?

No way am I going to beg them. Trump could have been stopped. He wasnt.

https://newrepublic.com/article/141865/deification-hillary-clinton

Seanchaidh:
Snip

Insults are worthless, Search. They make you look worse. You can't get what you want, so you're just wildly flailing at any sort of issue you can in order to get a listen, except what you DO get is people tearing you apart. 'There is no bad publicity'? I'm sure the Republican Party believes that, but why do you? You're not going to get your reform by shouting at everyone to flip the board and making wild accusations, and doing so is why everything you say is just patently unbelievable. You turn your back on the real issues, ignoring the village on fire because a fireman made fun of your tie. Get some perspective, man.

FalloutJack:

Seanchaidh:
Snip

Insults are worthless, Search. They make you look worse. You can't get what you want, so you're just wildly flailing at any sort of issue you can in order to get a listen, except what you DO get is people tearing you apart. 'There is no bad publicity'? I'm sure the Republican Party believes that, but why do you? You're not going to get your reform by shouting at everyone to flip the board and making wild accusations, and doing so is why everything you say is just patently unbelievable. You turn your back on the real issues, ignoring the village on fire because a fireman made fun of your tie. Get some perspective, man.

You know, despite your interesting views since the election, it was Sean who accurately read the election going in.

crimson5pheonix:
You know, despite your interesting views since the election, it was Sean who accurately read the election going in.

image

There's your prize, those of you who correctly predicted the rise of the Beast.

But rather than spending the next 4 years bitching about Hillary and demanding an apology and a, "You were right," from the rest of the world, I'm more inclined to pound the pavement, put pressure on my elected representatives, register new voters and make the case to everyone I know for a more progressive platform including Medicare for All, better education standards, free college and a guaranteed basic income.

BeetleManiac:

crimson5pheonix:
You know, despite your interesting views since the election, it was Sean who accurately read the election going in.

image

There's your prize, those of you who correctly predicted the rise of the Beast.

But rather than spending the next 4 years bitching about Hillary and demanding an apology and a, "You were right," from the rest of the world, I'm more inclined to pound the pavement, put pressure on my elected representatives, register new voters and make the case to everyone I know for a more progressive platform including Medicare for All, better education standards, free college and a guaranteed basic income.

And that's about what we've been calling for as well. But it's an uphill battle when the people of the closer ideology don't want to hear it because we're the ones saying it.

crimson5pheonix:
And that's about what we've been calling for as well. But it's an uphill battle when the people of the closer ideology don't want to hear it because we're the ones saying it.

So your suggestion is what exactly? I'm a little unclear on what course of action you're endorsing.

BeetleManiac:

crimson5pheonix:
And that's about what we've been calling for as well. But it's an uphill battle when the people of the closer ideology don't want to hear it because we're the ones saying it.

So your suggestion is what exactly? I'm a little unclear on what course of action you're endorsing.

Supporting good local candidates and demanding better candidates at the national level. It was obvious from the outset that Hillary was going to have trouble against Trump despite Trump's massive disadvantage of being Trump and the candidate who probably would have won was shot down rather deliberately. Worst of all came the daggers in the back from those Hillary supporters who couldn't grasp why she lost and are dead set on repeating the same mistakes she made. If you want to put forth more left leaning candidates, good, do so. But do it with a rational understanding of why Trump won in the first place so you have an accurate idea of what will work against him.

Saelune:
As long as people keep going "...but Clinton", I will keep going "...actually Trump".

I did not make this topic. I want unity, but alot of people who already were rejecting us, continue to do so in spite of all the things that Trump is doing.

Do you see the logical disconnect here? People don't want to support frying pan even though fire is really bad! Oh my Christ, look what fire is doing! How could they not support frying pan?!

Well, no, we don't want to support frying pan. Let's choose neither frying pan nor fire. Maybe, and this is just rank speculation, a better candidate will have a better chance at winning.

Seanchaidh:
Snip

Bad analogy is bad, based upon the eternal pessemist. You want everything and you don't know how, but you demand it. You don't even know where to begin because you don't know the real situation. You will be disappointed for the rest of your life.

crimson5pheonix:

And that's about what we've been calling for as well. But it's an uphill battle when the people of the closer ideology don't want to hear it because we're the ones saying it.

Who is "we", exactly?

Seanchaidh:
Maybe, and this is just rank speculation, a better candidate will have a better chance at winning.

Winning in four years, after a great deal of damage has been done which would not have been done with the other candidate.

I can see the benefit in persuading the party to adopt a candidate better suited, certainly. But never lose sight of the cost that was paid to send that message, because it was paid with other peoples' health and money. If you're happy to pay that cost, very well, but never gloss over it.

Silvanus:

crimson5pheonix:

And that's about what we've been calling for as well. But it's an uphill battle when the people of the closer ideology don't want to hear it because we're the ones saying it.

Who is "we", exactly?

snip

Sean and me at the very least.

Silvanus:

Seanchaidh:
Maybe, and this is just rank speculation, a better candidate will have a better chance at winning.

Winning in four years, after a great deal of damage has been done which would not have been done with the other candidate.

That just speaks to the depth of Clinton's failure to motivate support.

Silvanus:
I can see the benefit in persuading the party to adopt a candidate better suited, certainly. But never lose sight of the cost that was paid to send that message, because it was paid with other peoples' health and money. If you're happy to pay that cost, very well, but never gloss over it.

A reasonable calculation makes it better in the long run even for most of the people paying that cost-- anyone who doesn't die in the next few years and wouldn't have died in a similar way under Clinton as well-- because they both weren't being served well by Democrats anyway, and continued domination of the Democratic Party by the Clinton wing would have led to Republicans winning more in the future which would have led to more of the agenda which Trump has been pushing in office (which is notably at odds with much of what he said on the campaign trail). Trump's presidency is the distillation of almost everything that is wrong with the GOP, and neoliberal Democratic politics have an established inability to fend off the GOP agenda-- trouble while in power and trouble maintaining a hold on power. Trump is not particularly exceptional for a Republican except in his utter shamelessness when it comes to contradicting himself, and even that tendency is hardly novel-- it has merely reached its apex.

FalloutJack:

Seanchaidh:
Snip

Bad analogy is bad, based upon the eternal pessemist. You want everything and you don't know how, but you demand it. You don't even know where to begin because you don't know the real situation.

But I do know how! That's why I didn't vote for Clinton.

Seanchaidh:
Snip

Yes, you DID support Trump. Bet on the wrong horse and we all lost.

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