Republicans plan to take from the poor to give cuts to the rich

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evilthecat:
Leaving aside the obvious question of what exactly is supposed to be a "problem" in Europe. Do you think dominionism, Christian nationalism and attempts to legislate in favour of Christian doctrine is not a problem in the US? Because by any real measure the people doing that have been way, way more successful than any Islamist groups in Europe.

Oh I think it's a problem, but unlike in Europe there's actual pushback by the media and, more importantly, the government, instead of a blind eye being given to it like in Europe.

So.. why does plausibility doesn't matter here?

Because people, specifically the author and many critics, are treating it as such, in fact the entire idea is "it can happen here".

They believe that a mass religious revival is immanent within the USA

Well they're right about that. If immigration isn't reformed and illegals sent back the US will become a very Catholic nation, and if the Mormons don't reverse their trend of high birth rates and high retention rates they've had over the past 40 years (that flies in the face of the conventional wisdom that higher education and higher wealth leads to lower birth rates) then by the end of the century most whites will be Mormon and by the end of the next most Americans will be Anglo Mormons.

This is the future you choose by not having kids.

Saelune:

Gordon_4:

Saelune:
So is everything else Trump has done. And yet here he remains.

No one loses votes by bigging up Border Protection, or kicking the poor in the teeth: they are both super popular pastimes in politics. Defunding services that are supplying crippled war vets their wheelchairs though? That's the sort of shit that gets ANY president fucking lynched, especially south of the Mason-Dixie line. I mean shit the GOPs bread and butter supporters are the elderly and current and former servicemen and women: screwing them is insane.

Every time right-wingers got outraged at Trump...they then eventually cooled down and got back in line.

I hope you are right, but the pattern has suggested it wont stick.

Hey, someday Rand Paul and John McCain are going to get mad enough they eventually vote against party lines.

Someday...

altnameJag:

Saelune:

Gordon_4:

No one loses votes by bigging up Border Protection, or kicking the poor in the teeth: they are both super popular pastimes in politics. Defunding services that are supplying crippled war vets their wheelchairs though? That's the sort of shit that gets ANY president fucking lynched, especially south of the Mason-Dixie line. I mean shit the GOPs bread and butter supporters are the elderly and current and former servicemen and women: screwing them is insane.

Every time right-wingers got outraged at Trump...they then eventually cooled down and got back in line.

I hope you are right, but the pattern has suggested it wont stick.

Hey, someday Rand Paul and John McCain are going to get mad enough they eventually vote against party lines.

Someday...

That day is long past. You can't talk about the GOP as a singular party, couldn't do that for months now. Not with how openly Ryan and McCain have been hostile towards Trump, just like they are to anyone who isn't part of the Democrat/Republican corporate sphere. Rand was always an enemy, but unlike Trump his camp never became dominant to the point where now Ryan/McCain are fighting just to survive in politics now that the right has move on from neoconservatism.

altnameJag:

Saelune:

Gordon_4:

No one loses votes by bigging up Border Protection, or kicking the poor in the teeth: they are both super popular pastimes in politics. Defunding services that are supplying crippled war vets their wheelchairs though? That's the sort of shit that gets ANY president fucking lynched, especially south of the Mason-Dixie line. I mean shit the GOPs bread and butter supporters are the elderly and current and former servicemen and women: screwing them is insane.

Every time right-wingers got outraged at Trump...they then eventually cooled down and got back in line.

I hope you are right, but the pattern has suggested it wont stick.

Hey, someday Rand Paul and John McCain are going to get mad enough they eventually vote against party lines.

Someday...

As yes...John McCain. That Maverick...

Zontar:

altnameJag:

Saelune:
Every time right-wingers got outraged at Trump...they then eventually cooled down and got back in line.

I hope you are right, but the pattern has suggested it wont stick.

Hey, someday Rand Paul and John McCain are going to get mad enough they eventually vote against party lines.

Someday...

That day is long past. You can't talk about the GOP as a singular party, couldn't do that for months now. Not with how openly Ryan and McCain have been hostile towards Trump, just like they are to anyone who isn't part of the Democrat/Republican corporate sphere. Rand was always an enemy, but unlike Trump his camp never became dominant to the point where now Ryan/McCain are fighting just to survive in politics now that the right has move on from neoconservatism.

Yeah, sure. Meanwhile, Paul, despite thinking Sessions policies will ruin lives and basically is opposed to everything Sessions is about, voted to confirm him because he thinks Democrats were mean to Sessions. McCain's been similarly lock-step.

Zontar:
Oh I think it's a problem, but unlike in Europe there's actual pushback by the media and, more importantly, the government, instead of a blind eye being given to it like in Europe.

Most of Europe is, to put it bluntly, vastly, vastly more secular than most of the US.

Where exactly are you seeing a blind eye being given to religious attempts to seize power? For that matter, where are you seeing such attempts occurring at all?

I'm sure Cucklord5000 did a really persuasive youtube video on how Muslamics are taking over Europe because he saw a woman with a hijab once, but most people will expect some evidence to claims like that.

Zontar:
Because people, specifically the author and many critics, are treating it as such, in fact the entire idea is "it can happen here".

Right. But that's the point of satire isn't it? It provides an extreme example of something which is happening or which could happen.

When people talk about current political trends as "Orwellian", when they use newspeak words like "doublethink", "thoughtcrime" to describe current events, they are in one sense literally saying that we're going to end up in a dystopian autocracy. It's alarmist nonsense.

But it works because everyone understands that the point of satire is to take things to their logical extremes, and when someone says "1984 seems increasingly realistic" they don't mean that a literal 1930s style fascist dictatorship is going to sieze power in Britain and the USA and slowly evolve into a world-spanning superstate with total surveillance and control, they mean that those microscopic forms of power which 1984 is actually about are becoming more and more a part of everyday life.

Why is it so difficult to treat similar claims about the Handmaid's Tale in the same way?

Zontar:
Well they're right about that. If immigration isn't reformed and illegals sent back the US will become a very Catholic nation, and if the Mormons don't reverse their trend of high birth rates and high retention rates they've had over the past 40 years (that flies in the face of the conventional wisdom that higher education and higher wealth leads to lower birth rates) then by the end of the century most whites will be Mormon and by the end of the next most Americans will be Anglo Mormons.

What are you talking about.. we all know that the Catholics already siezed control of the United States back in the early 20th century.. or was it the mid 19th century.. it's so hard to keep track of all the times Catholicism has siezed control of the US.

image

Zontar:

I don't think the book is trash because it has views that differ from my own. Hell being a fan of science fiction and a conservative is pretty much impossible to do without being able to enjoy things that don't agree with my views. I think that book belongs in the trash because it's not a very good book. The setting is not very well thought out, the characters are bland, the concepts are laughable, and to be quite frank it's just someone attempting to be Orwell with an 80s spin (oh no, Iran got taken over by Islamists and now Reagan has taken office, it can happen here!) without any of the talent, insight or nuance that Orwell had.

Which is an interesting analysis, given that The Handmaiden's Tale won the inaugural Arthur C. Clark SF award, was nominated to the Nebulas, Prometheus awards (for libertarian SF), Booker Prize (which is a mainstream literature award), garnered highly positive reviews even amongst mainstream literary reviewers, and is considered material sufficiently high quality to sit on higher education syllabus courses. Atwood more generally is regarded as a highly distinguished author, with many other honours, nominations and literary prizes to her name.

The overwhelming weight of literary critics, authors and academics versus Zontar. Hmm... I wonder who's more credible there?

Zontar:
This is the future you choose by not having kids.

Oh my. The irony of saying this and yet criticising the Handmaiden's Tale for being implausible.

"We must save our nation by putting women back where they belong - the maternity ward!"

well yeah of course they are. it's what they do. that's basicly what the right wing of politics are about. fuck the working and to a lesser extent middle class to give rich people more benefits. that's politics 101

Zontar:
Well they're right about that. If immigration isn't reformed and illegals sent back the US will become a very Catholic nation, and if the Mormons don't reverse their trend of high birth rates and high retention rates they've had over the past 40 years (that flies in the face of the conventional wisdom that higher education and higher wealth leads to lower birth rates) then by the end of the century most whites will be Mormon and by the end of the next most Americans will be Anglo Mormons.

This is the future you choose by not having kids.

I'm sorry, what? Like seriously, what? Literally every statistic I can find on this subject proves it wrong, from every angle you can look at it. According to the CDC about 4 million infants were born in the US in 2015. That's close to 11,000 per day. There are 11 million total illegal immigrants living in the US right now--and remember most illegal immigrants have simply overstayed their visas, and more than half are from Mexico (many of the rest are from Canada). But the number of illegals from Mexico has actually been declining in recent years. And only 14% of the total illegal immigrant population has arrived in the last 5 years. That's about 1.5 million. So, 4 million US citizens being born every day, versus 1.5 million that have arrived in the last 5 years (split evenly means 300,000 per year). That's not going to be outrunning our birth rate anytime soon.

And now for some statistics on Catholics. Given racial stereotypes I assume you're talking mostly about Mexican illegal immigrants, since only 38% of Canadians are Catholic, and about 85% of Mexicans are. Now Christianity on the whole is dropping in the US, and it's dropping even faster with every new generation. But Catholicism is dropping in members the fastest, losing about 3 million members from 2007 to 2015. That's about 375,000 members per year.

As for Mormons, frankly I don't even know why you brought them up. There are about 6.5 million Mormons living in the US. About 25% of the US population identifies as some brand of evangelical Protestant, and 20% identifies as Catholic. Given the current US population, that's 144 million. Mormons would have to have an absolutely astronomical birth rate to put even a scratch on that number in the next 50 years. Hell even 100 years.

So in other words, even if all illegal immigrants are Catholics from Mexico (which they aren't), America is losing more Catholics per year than it might gain from illegal immigration. So no, Zontar. Even if everything you believed about illegal immigrants in the US were true (which it isn't) America would not be in any danger of becoming a "very Catholic nation." At best it's at risk of becoming a very secular nation, with maybe a tiny handful of Catholics more than it would have originally. But that number is merely a drop in the bucket compared to how many are leaving Christianity on the whole.

Zontar:

No, I just think it could be a problem since in Europe it's already a problem. I also don't think it'll take over there either, but taking over and being a problem are two different things.

Then that's where we are with Christians in America then.

I dont' see any Muslim TV stations around here, I know that...

Oh, and agree about Handsmaid's Tale. Wasn't that good a book. Hell, the Christian Police State in Escape from LA was more believable.

Lilani:

jklinders:

Parasondox:
Why do certain US politicians, and some citizens too, treat the rich as if they are Gods, while treating the poor as if they are a disease?

I'm guessing it's because socially they never left the 19th century. I'm just waiting for these assholes to institute Dickens style workhouses and homes for unwed mothers and their children and the the circle back to the industrial revolution will be complete. Being poor is nearly criminalized as it is. It's not a huge step to make it that way again.

Watching the Republican's Obamacare "replacement" unfold over Facebook was very entertaining. So many comments in favor of it essentially boiled down to, "Well if they're going to die then they'd better do it, and decrease the surplus population."

Didn't Ebenezer Scrooge say something like that in A Christmas Carol?

Lilani:
So no, Zontar. Even if everything you believed about illegal immigrants in the US were true (which it isn't) America would not be in any danger of becoming a "very Catholic nation."

The fundamental mistake you made was assuming I was talking about illegal immigration, when I was talking about the demographic shift that's mostly being influenced by legal immigration and birth rates, as Catholics are significantly overrepresented in legal immigration, tend to have more children then their Protestant counterparts, and as for the Mormons, well very high birth rate in a country with a near stable natural growth rate leads to rapid growth in proportions of the population.

Smithnikov:

Zontar:

No, I just think it could be a problem since in Europe it's already a problem. I also don't think it'll take over there either, but taking over and being a problem are two different things.

Then that's where we are with Christians in America then.

I dont' see any Muslim TV stations around here, I know that...

I was more talking about the social issues that have arisen due to the self ghettoisation of the Muslim community in Europe. You don't have a wanted terrorist who's actively being searched for by the police be able to walk openly in public in a city for a month due to the community being tolerant of his presence, followed by the riot police being needed to take him in due to objects being thrown at them when arresting him by members of said community like we saw in Belgium. That has no equivalent in the US and frankly should have one anywhere in an ideal world.

Oh, and agree about Handsmaid's Tale. Wasn't that good a book. Hell, the Christian Police State in Escape from LA was more believable.

Never read that other one, sounds campy as hell.

Zontar:

Never read that other one, sounds campy as hell.

It was a movie, sequel to Escape from New York.

Smithnikov:

Zontar:

Never read that other one, sounds campy as hell.

It was a movie, sequel to Escape from New York.

Did it star Kurt Russel? If so I have to watch it now.

Zontar:
and as for the Mormons, well very high birth rate in a country with a near stable natural growth rate leads to rapid growth in proportions of the population.

Except that the retention rate for Mormons is only 64% (for evangelicals, it's 65%, for Catholics only 59%).

All in all, both Mormonism and Catholicism are shrinking in the US (albeit more slowly than other denominations like mainline protestantism). The total number of Mormons is growing, barely, but the proportion relative to the overall population is smaller than ever. The fastest growing religious group in the US, by a massive, massive margin, is the unaffiliated group (atheists, agnostics and those who refuse to give a denomination).

In 2004, only 16% of the US population fell into the unaffiliated bracket. In 2014, it was 23%. Mormonism went from 1.7% to 1.6%. Catholicism went from 23.9% to 20.8%. There is no demographic shift towards Catholicism or Mormonism in the US. In fact, there is a huge demographic shift away from explicit identification with any religious group.

evilthecat:

Except that the retention rate for Mormons is only 64% (for evangelicals, it's 65%, for Catholics only 59%).

So of your 6 kids 2 will leave (though it should be noted that it's becoming a common trend for people who left Mormonism to return if what I've been told is right, but even without it doesn't really matter).

All in all, both Mormonism and Catholicism are shrinking in the US (albeit more slowly than other denominations like mainline protestantism). The total number of Mormons is growing, barely, but the proportion relative to the overall population is smaller than ever. The fastest growing religious group in the US, by a massive, massive margin, is the unaffiliated group (atheists, agnostics and those who refuse to give a denomination).

In 2004, only 16% of the US population fell into the unaffiliated bracket. In 2014, it was 23%. Mormonism went from 1.7% to 1.6%. Catholicism went from 23.9% to 20.8%. There is no demographic shift towards Catholicism or Mormonism in the US. In fact, there is a huge demographic shift away from explicit identification with any religious group.

These numbers seem odd given the consistently high birth rate, coupled with the fact their numbers have doubled twice in the past 45 years in the US with no slowdown in the birthrate in that time.

Zontar:

Smithnikov:

Zontar:

Never read that other one, sounds campy as hell.

It was a movie, sequel to Escape from New York.

Did it star Kurt Russel? If so I have to watch it now.

Yep, still as Snake Plisskin. It's a lot less serious than EFNY was though, be warned.

Zontar:
So of your 6 kids 2 will leave (though it should be noted that it's becoming a common trend for people who left Mormonism to return if what I've been told is right, but even without it doesn't really matter).

1.2 of your 3.4 kids will leave, leaving you only barely above replacement level.

If they are returning, it's not reflected in the demographics. Indeed, 65% is probably artificially high since:

a) It only measures the chance that random people who were raised Mormon are no longer Mormon, not the chance that a person leaves the Mormon faith during their lifetime.

b) It makes no distinction between practicing and "cultural" Mormons (around 10% of Mormons "seldom" or "never" attend services, for example).

Zontar:
These numbers seem odd given the consistently high birth rate, coupled with the fact their numbers have doubled twice in the past 45 years in the US with no slowdown in the birthrate in that time.

Before 1950, Mormons were a tiny and concentrated minority mostly confined to Utah. The church grew extremely fast in the second half of the 20th century, though not really due to birth rates as a renewed focus on missionary activity. The family values boom in the 80s was also a huge boost to the Mormons (as it was to all non-mainline Christian denominations). However, since 2000 growth rates have declined rapidly as they have for every Christian denomination.

In the 20th century it was common to hear scholars of religion talk about the "American exception" to the universal rule of developed countries becoming less religious. Today, they don't talk about that.

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