Gender role double standards

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Personally I find the double standards within gender roles ridiculous. That said they're still extremely prevalent. Most recently regarding my career there is a facebook group meant for people within the profession to share work experiences and give each other advice. Within that group a woman decided to create a women's only variation. Now had a man done the same thing there would have been a lot of negative feedback. Double standards like this I feel are complete bullshit and while yes there are bigger problems out there, this is still an aspect in society that we should have outgrown.

Accidentally cut my whole "advice section"

Anyway I guess I'm looking for some ways to deal with these kind of double standards constructively without sounding like the person who gets offended by everything.

I would suggest talking to the people employing them to find out why they are putting these standards in place.

However, if you start the discussion from a position of "They are wrong, I'm just confirming it." then the discussion or explanation is probably not going to be useful. Talk to people from a position of "I'm not sure that's a good idea, but I'll see what they have to say" and you'll find the discussion much more respectful and productive.

There might be legitimate reasons to separate groups by gender.

Too bad we don't live in society where we can't just call people out on their bullshit.
Would be great wouldn't it?

If we all stood behind and fight against the bullshit but sadly the bee heave effect.

I would make a new facebook account and call them out on it if you could. :b
This way you would take no heat.

Ignore it, and notice how most women do so too. Except for the rare case where women truly do need an exclusive group for dealing with serious issues that apply only to women, such groups tend to wither and die from redundancy.

I find it strange that there is (where I live) no men only gym, but there are ladies only ones.

That said, they put up with a lot of crap at normal gyms, so I don't mind.

That's because when a disadvantaged group band together it is empowering, but when the priveleged group band together it is exclusionary. Not to say I agree with what they're doing, but if they are comitting a double standard it is only to combat the double standard in the workforce.

I think the women tht go to women only gyms and women only organizations are weird.
I am female but I prefer to have a good balance.

So, here is a photo of three women in Japan that think female only train carriages are great, and one that says "I dont really care".
You guess which one is which...

image

manic_depressive13:
That's because when a disadvantaged group band together it is empowering, but when the priveleged group band together it is exclusionary. Not to say I agree with what they're doing, but if they are comitting a double standard it is only to combat the double standard in the workforce.

This is a reasonably equal profession with no limitations in terms of gender, skin color, belief or anything else. So long as you can communicate with your co-workers and able to do the job you'll do fine. So no one in the field is actually disadvantaged unless you have an actual disability (physical or mental). And even the field does it's best to accommodate you if you have enough training and experience within the field. So if that's the case it's as though they're trying to make themselves seem disadvantaged or make others believe they're disadvantaged when in fact, they're not. Not even close. The one who actually made the group is about as high up as you can get, only one more level above her and within the field less than 1% of people actually make it that far.

Perhaps the person that created the group perceived some issues related purely to women that you don't?

I wouldn't pay any attention to it. It could be some issues that a woman feels comfortable only telling other woman, I know there was an issues that I had at my work that came up that was was uncomfortable telling a male boss. So I told one of my female boss, she understood and took care of the issue.

I just recently checked up on it and there's a number of other members (males and females) calling it a sexist movement. The group has grown significantly still but who knows. At least I don't have to worry about being "that guy" anymore.

Jinxzy:
I wouldn't pay any attention to it. It could be some issues that a woman feels comfortable only telling other woman, I know there was an issues that I had at my work that came up that was was uncomfortable telling a male boss. So I told one of my female boss, she understood and took care of the issue.

Is that truly because that boss is female? Or is she just a better person to talk to? If you look around a bit you can probably find some females that you wouldn't want to talk about you personal problems with either. In any case, it is not like a Facebook group would have been any help.

eBusiness:

Jinxzy:
I wouldn't pay any attention to it. It could be some issues that a woman feels comfortable only telling other woman, I know there was an issues that I had at my work that came up that was was uncomfortable telling a male boss. So I told one of my female boss, she understood and took care of the issue.

Is that truly because that boss is female? Or is she just a better person to talk to? If you look around a bit you can probably find some females that you wouldn't want to talk about you personal problems with either. In any case, it is not like a Facebook group would have been any help.

It was because of a health issue and I needed to go home, which my bosses are the only ones that can say you can leave. I didn't feel comfortable explaining it to my male boss that I had an ovarian cyst, to me it's a lot more comfortable to talk to a female boss about "lady problems." Also a lot less embarrassing to me as well. I have good relationship with both of them it's just for me "lady problems" are a lot easier to talk to with an actual woman.

The_Tron:
Personally I find the double standards within gender roles ridiculous. That said they're still extremely prevalent. Most recently regarding my career there is a facebook group meant for people within the profession to share work experiences and give each other advice. Within that group a woman decided to create a women's only variation. Now had a man done the same thing there would have been a lot of negative feedback. Double standards like this I feel are complete bullshit and while yes there are bigger problems out there, this is still an aspect in society that we should have outgrown.

Accidentally cut my whole "advice section"

Anyway I guess I'm looking for some ways to deal with these kind of double standards constructively without sounding like the person who gets offended by everything.

I know, I mean why can a woman walk around in a short skirt but when I do it suddenly I have metal issues!!

Joking aside I have to agree with the double standards for both male and females, why can't we all just move past this? it's ok for a group of woman to be exclusively women but when it's something like that I just don't see the point of segregating yourself from other employees just because of your gender.

A little update. The creator of the group has since changed their mind about it being a women only group after a lot of people pointed out her behavior (she still insists that it was never meant to be a womens only group even though in her original post is says "women only"). The weirdest part I find about it was that she basically said the point of the alternate group would be the exact same as the original. I can understand if there were members that felt discriminated against wanting to branch off but literally the only things the original group do is share work experiences (pictures of equipment provided they're taken legally), help each other find work and just answer general questions about the profession (like regulation differences between countries/provinces). I voiced my opinion to her and a number of other people agreed with what I said and the group hasn't grown anymore.

I genuinely don't mean to sound hard but from the way your argument is presented OP, you do sound slightly like someone who gets offended a little too easily. I personally don't think making a female only group is breaching any sort of unsaid rules. I wouldn't mind at ALL if a male only group was created in said situation. The group may simply exist for people of the same gender to talk about gender related similar experiences! The reason the woman in this context created the group may have been a simple belief that a "women only" group may be fun to have. I think women generally enjoy banding together more than men and there's nothing wrong with that. My assumptions here may be wildly wrong but I surely hope not. P.s Don't get me wrong, I am completely against double standards in general I just didn't think this was one (intentionally).

Angie7F:
I think the women tht go to women only gyms and women only organizations are weird.
I am female but I prefer to have a good balance.

So, here is a photo of three women in Japan that think female only train carriages are great, and one that says "I dont really care".
You guess which one is which...

image

Doesn't work with me. I'm an obese, hairy, pale, Scot. I wouldn't care, either. Because if I encountered a chikan, I'd scream at the git so hard he'd be picking my breakfast out of his eyesockets for a whole year!

Could I ask a question? What is your profession and, if you could answer with all honesty if you opened a group for your profession, what percentage of the active members would probably be men?

dversion:
Could I ask a question? What is your profession and, if you could answer with all honesty if you opened a group for your profession, what percentage of the active members would probably be men?

That doesn't seem relevant - "mostly consists of X" doesn't mean "only X allowed".

EDIT: Whoops, wrong thread. Disregard this.

archiebawled:

dversion:
Could I ask a question? What is your profession and, if you could answer with all honesty if you opened a group for your profession, what percentage of the active members would probably be men?

That doesn't seem relevant - "mostly consists of X" doesn't mean "only X allowed".

I think his point is that if there is overwhelmingly more X than Y then Y may feel disadvantaged as it's not seen as 'their place' to be there and feel like they need extra support.

I was just talking on another thread about how I think that one-sex-only groups are a bit counter productive. Having said that I was just going to point out that there's male-only things as well as female-only things - in either case it's usually in a field where the other sex tends to hold the majority of the field. I've seen social care training for men only, for example. I don't think it's a double standard, it's merely that it doesn't make as much sense to have a men only group for sectors where men are having no trouble getting into it, just like it wouldn't make as much sense to have a woman-only support for sectors where women are stereotypically seen as better for the roles.

Besides, OP, it's hardly a double standard that "had a man done the same thing there would have been a lot of negative feedback" when it sounds like she did get a lot of negative feedback. I just hope that your profession is as equal as you seem to think it is and she hasn't just been bullied out of it by a lot of guys wondering why on Earth the 5% of women in your career might need some extra encouragement to keep at it. :P

But yeah, either way I don't think it's an ideal situation to split up genders (I suppose I'm just being a bit "why can't we all just get along? :'( ") but I do get the point behind them.

lisadagz:
But yeah, either way I don't think it's an ideal situation to split up genders (I suppose I'm just being a bit "why can't we all just get along? :'( ") but I do get the point behind them.

It makes sense to a certain extent, particularly in one example someone gave about talking to a female boss about her medical problem (though I'd hope a Facebook group for lady issues wouldn't be necessary). I'd also say something for a human resource rep/department which can handle a range of issues and mediate, where possible.

With exceptions, a point that sticks me is that we won't understand each other if we keep making boy and girl clubs. Maybe at some level we don't think that can or should even happen.

AgedGrunt:

lisadagz:
But yeah, either way I don't think it's an ideal situation to split up genders (I suppose I'm just being a bit "why can't we all just get along? :'( ") but I do get the point behind them.

It makes sense to a certain extent, particularly in one example someone gave about talking to a female boss about her medical problem (though I'd hope a Facebook group for lady issues wouldn't be necessary). I'd also say something for a human resource rep/department which can handle a range of issues and mediate, where possible.

With exceptions, a point that sticks me is that we won't understand each other if we keep making boy and girl clubs. Maybe at some level we don't think that can or should even happen.

archiebawled:

dversion:
Could I ask a question? What is your profession and, if you could answer with all honesty if you opened a group for your profession, what percentage of the active members would probably be men?

That doesn't seem relevant - "mostly consists of X" doesn't mean "only X allowed".

Well here's where that gets tricky. Because OP is complaining of double standards.
It doesn't sound like OP wants to join this group or that he feels even excluded. He just doesn't like the idea of something he can't join, whether he even wants to or that joining would even give him any actual benefits.

If you had a group of just men in that profession and there were like 5% women in the field, you'd actually be creating a rather large networking environment of which women would not be included. Not only that but you'd be pushing the environment of exclusion that may already exist in that profession.

With a group that only caters to the minority of the profession you have a safe environment, to not only blow off some steam with some common frustrations but share experiences and advice that would only be applicable to that minority.

As for the double standard bit, yeah well if your the majority you have more freedoms and privileges that the minority and any attempt to help the minority is somehow seen as an affront to the privileges you enjoy.

I will say though that a male friend of mine belongs to a male only social group for men who are involved in early childhood education, a profession dominated by women. The group helps him share interests with other dudes who have the same interest and talk about issues that are only applicable to them such as a weird mistrust of male ECE workers from parents.

So it's not really a double standard after all. OP just doesn't like the fact that someone can have something he can't whether he even wants it or not.

Well the point of this original group is for people to share professional experiences, find work, and basically answer any questions related to the field. This woman then says "Hey ladies, I made a group for us" then a summary of basically the same objective of the original group, "No offense guys" and the name of the group was Female only "original group name here". Then when people said how that's sexist behavior by intentionally trying to exclude people she lied and said that was never her intention, that the group was for anyone who wanted to. Even though it was an invite only and only women get invited. The double standard here is that yes had a man done it there would have been a lot more flak faster and said flak would have been much harsher. Likely the group would have to have been abolished for discrimination and the creator would have been kicked out of the original group for sexual discrimination (they've kicked people out for less so yes that would happen). What still bugs me is that she acts like she did nothing wrong. And no this field is not so dominated by one gender or the other. At one point yes it was but it's getting much closer to 50/50 now. So because of that and the fact that there's almost no real gender discriminating factors in the job (aside from conversations in the break rooms) it just seems like a way to revert back to the old school "boy's club" except from the other gender, and why is it fair that said boys clubs where torn apart because they were misogynistic and discriminatory, but the exact reverse scenario its somehow ok? That screams double standard to me.

"yeah well if your the majority you have more freedoms and privileges that the minority and any attempt to help the minority is somehow seen as an affront to the privileges you enjoy." Ya to be honest the "privileges and freedoms" are the same between the minorities and majorities within the field. Those privileges and freedoms really only by industy, company and location. For example some companies can afford to pay way more and offer way better benefits because the product they produce requires much less input for how expensive the final product is. My profession is difficult to describe unless you know, simply because it varies quite a bit from industry to industry and even within said industry. The entry level jobs are comparable to skilled labourers and the middle of the pack is basically what Homer Simpson does (sit at a control panel and manipulate a number of systems or just sit and make sure nothing blows up depending on the industry) higher up positions are comparable to management. Within the original group it's probably about 60-40 men to women and even then there's a lot of older guys in the group and instructors across the country. Overall your statements have just sounded like you're trying to make me sound like a immature prick who's whining for nothing and fine that may be your opinion, I don't agree and I don't think you fully understand the situation but you're welcome to believe that. I can try and provide you with more information if need be, just ask in a concise manner.

I can understand if the point was to discuss issues about say being a female in said profession but the fact that she said the point of it was copy and pasted from the original group just seemed as though the only point of it was to exclude the other gender.

I accidentally forgot to type this in my last post but last time I checked on the thread about the creation of the group one of the original posters who said the creation of the group was sexist and exclusionary had mentioned how because of his comment he received a number of hateful messages calling him things like a misogynistic pig from the women within the group. This kind of backlash over pointing something out like that is one of the double standards I'm referring to.

dversion:
I will say though that a male friend of mine belongs to a male only social group for men who are involved in early childhood education, a profession dominated by women. The group helps him share interests with other dudes who have the same interest and talk about issues that are only applicable to them such as a weird mistrust of male ECE workers from parents.

Again, while there are times when it makes sense, would you agree that everyone could benefit if the issues were more, for lack of a better term, accessible? Being a white male, my experience is that segregation has an alienating effect, in that it can leave the majority ignorant and naive toward minorities and how they are affected in daily life.

Using your example, changes in perception need to be made so that the industry can work to eliminate that gender bias. I definitely see the need for your friend's group and that it helps them navigate the challenge of gender bias, but a group like that seems limited to treating the symptoms of a big problem.

If we're going to work toward creating fair and equal professional environments, everyone needs to be involved and understand each other, and to a certain extent that means the majority needs to understand the minority better.

AgedGrunt:

dversion:
I will say though that a male friend of mine belongs to a male only social group for men who are involved in early childhood education, a profession dominated by women. The group helps him share interests with other dudes who have the same interest and talk about issues that are only applicable to them such as a weird mistrust of male ECE workers from parents.

Again, while there are times when it makes sense, would you agree that everyone could benefit if the issues were more, for lack of a better term, accessible? Being a white male, my experience is that segregation has an alienating effect, in that it can leave the majority ignorant and naive toward minorities and how they are affected in daily life.

Using your example, changes in perception need to be made so that the industry can work to eliminate that gender bias. I definitely see the need for your friend's group and that it helps them navigate the challenge of gender bias, but a group like that seems limited to treating the symptoms of a big problem.

If we're going to work toward creating fair and equal professional environments, everyone needs to be involved and understand each other, and to a certain extent that means the majority needs to understand the minority better.

I worked in an HR department and my job was to settle disputes between different branches, and 99% of the time it was some sort of miscommunication or people were not actually explaining their position to each other. So on a professional level, people should be more open. Things get tricky however when there's cases of sexual harassment, racism, and sexism.
Things I've unfortunately had to deal with and there was no "his side of the story" in those cases. And even worse, I'm sure most cases of these things happening I never even heard of because no one came to me because there's always this aura of shame or the fact that co-workers have convinced these wronged workers that it was "no big deal." I also think that being a white, straight, male had something to do with people not coming to me because they felt I couldn't relate. Which on one hand is true, I can't relate to any of that stuff but I (at least I hope I was) very understanding and took a hard line against any of that stuff.

Yes, in a perfect world we would all respect each others viewpoints and listen with open caring hearts. This isn't always the case. The biggest issue I could see that makes creating a female-only social group would be experiences on dealing with sexual harassment. Having a safe place without risking some man explaining why "they should just live with it" is important. Most women will experience sexual harassment in the workplace at one time or another and as both you and me are white males, we really shouldn't have the say in the conversation. I'm sure both of us would not be dismissive of their very important issues but I'm okay with being left out if it means jerkbags won't be there. And sometimes our presence is enough to make them feel like their say is not applicable.

My friend's group is a bit of a tricky one. Some women were upset by it, actually understandably so. They see it as men, who have excluded women from many and most professions and industries throughout history coming into one of the few women dominated industries and managing to excluding them from their own workplace community.

The_Tron:
I accidentally forgot to type this in my last post but last time I checked on the thread about the creation of the group one of the original posters who said the creation of the group was sexist and exclusionary had mentioned how because of his comment he received a number of hateful messages calling him things like a misogynistic pig from the women within the group. This kind of backlash over pointing something out like that is one of the double standards I'm referring to.

Well since women never get any internet backlash for anything they say on the internet I'm sure your friend received a lot of rape threats as well.

dversion:
Yes, in a perfect world we would all respect each others viewpoints and listen with open caring hearts. This isn't always the case.

Most women will experience sexual harassment in the workplace at one time or another and as both you and me are white males, we really shouldn't have the say in the conversation.

Well I suppose most of how I feel is big picture social progress rather than trying to make "ideal" environments. In general I don't feel anyone should be excluded from conversation, at least at a higher level. If more men were explicitly subject to testimony from women who have been harassed, heard their stories and what it did to them, I think that's significant. Surely not advocating private information is released, but maybe we need to start having tough conversations with each other. Thanks for your input.

dversion:

The_Tron:
I accidentally forgot to type this in my last post but last time I checked on the thread about the creation of the group one of the original posters who said the creation of the group was sexist and exclusionary had mentioned how because of his comment he received a number of hateful messages calling him things like a misogynistic pig from the women within the group. This kind of backlash over pointing something out like that is one of the double standards I'm referring to.

Well since women never get any internet backlash for anything they say on the internet I'm sure your friend received a lot of rape threats as well.

Really? That's a pretty sick joke for a former HR rep. And that doesn't even relate, sure people of all gender, race and sexual orientation have received backlash on the internet if you want to be that general. But in a group of supposed professionals in the field, no nothing like that has happened before. If you're going to be an asshole like that and not even contribute something thought out, why are you even here?

The_Tron:

dversion:

The_Tron:
I accidentally forgot to type this in my last post but last time I checked on the thread about the creation of the group one of the original posters who said the creation of the group was sexist and exclusionary had mentioned how because of his comment he received a number of hateful messages calling him things like a misogynistic pig from the women within the group. This kind of backlash over pointing something out like that is one of the double standards I'm referring to.

Well since women never get any internet backlash for anything they say on the internet I'm sure your friend received a lot of rape threats as well.

Really? That's a pretty sick joke for a former HR rep. And that doesn't even relate, sure people of all gender, race and sexual orientation have received backlash on the internet if you want to be that general. But in a group of supposed professionals in the field, no nothing like that has happened before. If you're going to be an asshole like that and not even contribute something thought out, why are you even here?

I don't know what you interpreted this as but here was the point.

These complaints of these double-standards you speak of are not really issues.

There's things you and I most likely will never have done to us. We don't really have to worry about sexual harassment or sexism in the workplace.

When we voice our concerns out "double-standards" online, we won't have a barrage of rape threats given to us. Hell, if we did get those we would not really worry about them because there's almost no chance we will suffer from the act of rape.
If you were really concerned with double-standards, real actual concerns that affect people, you would see just how much of the long end of the stick you have in almost every area.

No, your concern is with being excluded from something you don't even have an interest in joining and not lacking the ability to being able to exclude others, something you don't even want to do anyway.

You're being incredibly vague with your profession, I'm not complaining about that, you have the right to your privacy. However, I'm guessing it's not nursing or childhood education so anything else is an industry women had to fight to get in.

Get a grip on reality, see things from more than your own narrow perspective.

dversion:

The_Tron:

dversion:

Well since women never get any internet backlash for anything they say on the internet I'm sure your friend received a lot of rape threats as well.

Really? That's a pretty sick joke for a former HR rep. And that doesn't even relate, sure people of all gender, race and sexual orientation have received backlash on the internet if you want to be that general. But in a group of supposed professionals in the field, no nothing like that has happened before. If you're going to be an asshole like that and not even contribute something thought out, why are you even here?

I don't know what you interpreted this as but here was the point.

These complaints of these double-standards you speak of are not really issues.

There's things you and I most likely will never have done to us. We don't really have to worry about sexual harassment or sexism in the workplace.

When we voice our concerns out "double-standards" online, we won't have a barrage of rape threats given to us. Hell, if we did get those we would not really worry about them because there's almost no chance we will suffer from the act of rape.
If you were really concerned with double-standards, real actual concerns that affect people, you would see just how much of the long end of the stick you have in almost every area.

No, your concern is with being excluded from something you don't even have an interest in joining and not lacking the ability to being able to exclude others, something you don't even want to do anyway.

You're being incredibly vague with your profession, I'm not complaining about that, you have the right to your privacy. However, I'm guessing it's not nursing or childhood education so anything else is an industry women had to fight to get in.

Get a grip on reality, see things from more than your own narrow perspective.

As someone who has been raped by a women and was unable to do anything about it. I would like to say you don't know what the fuck you are talking about. So just leave as all you are doing right now is being extremely offensive. You brought up industries where women had to fight just to get in, well that's all well and fine but because they had to fight just to get in these industries I'm supposed to suffer and not have the same rights as them because men before me were oppressive assholes. There's clearly a lot you aren't seeing here and maybe it's because you're in a very different part of the world or industry. Either way, yes sexism and sexual harassment can happen to anyone in the work force, Male or female, just because I am a male doesn't mean it can't happen to me, sure it's less likely depending on the field but it still can, the fact that you said "We don't really have to worry about sexual harassment or sexism in the workplace." is a really strong indicator that you are part of the problem.

The_Tron:

As someone who has been raped by a women and was unable to do anything about it. I would like to say you don't know what the fuck you are talking about. So just leave as all you are doing right now is being extremely offensive. You brought up industries where women had to fight just to get in, well that's all well and fine but because they had to fight just to get in these industries I'm supposed to suffer and not have the same rights as them because men before me were oppressive assholes. There's clearly a lot you aren't seeing here and maybe it's because you're in a very different part of the world or industry. Either way, yes sexism and sexual harassment can happen to anyone in the work force, Male or female, just because I am a male doesn't mean it can't happen to me, sure it's less likely depending on the field but it still can, the fact that you said "We don't really have to worry about sexual harassment or sexism in the workplace." is a really strong indicator that you are part of the problem.

From the bottom of my heart, I did not mean to offend you and I did not mean that rape towards men is a non-issue or make light of the issue. And I do apologize if you thought that
I do hope you believe me on that note.

Can I ask how exactly you are suffering in the workplace? How this group affects you in anyway shape or form?

My workplace personally I feel is fine, a relatively health mix of gender, race and ethnicities. This creation of this second group is offensive in because of the attitude presented by it's creator, acting as though it should have been fine knowing full well that it was excluding people based on gender. And the double standard present because of how this kind of activity not long ago was ground for serious punishment when perpetrated by males, now that it's the other way around it's just a "Meh" issue. These are what I find so offensive about it, yes, I don't want to join the second group as it provides no benefit over the original, it's merely a clone but gender exclusive. Had it at least been presented to discussing the gender related issues within the field I would have been fine with it, but as I said before the creator made the group just to exclude others and create a "girls club" version of what is supposed to be a professional group meant to help others do their job and be better qualified within the field.

Edit: Also the reaction towards the first person who pointed out the group was sexist and exclusive from the members of the second group was really ridiculous. I know that happened in the past but in the argument that ensued people cry about outgrowing the mistakes our society has made in the past and then attempt to recreate them in a slightly different manner.

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