Punishing the Innocent

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Saelune:
Well, lets talk about same-sex marriage. Why are so many people opposed to me getting married? How can I not take that as a personal attack when people try to take away my legal rights to partner with someone just because we're different than them?

"If any object to this union, please speak now"

Atleast 7million Californians would have spoken up if given the chance, considering thats around how many opposed gay marriage via Prop 8 less than 10 years ago.

And same-sex marriage being federally legalized was only by a 5-4 split on the Supreme Court.

You lash out at Robert for asking people to keep discussion civil and to the point and not personal. That itself is ridiculous.

That also after he had posted his sort of 'farewell', which should have been to any respectful individual a flag to drop the debate or at least cease fire for a moment... don't you think?

I cancelled two trips to the US this year for more-or-less political reasons. One was just a hop over to Detroit for a concert and sightseeing, the other was trip to Disney World that I'd been planning for the past year. Ultimately I decided there was no way I could have anything resembling "fun" being around people who would, in my eyes, have to prove themselves to not be racist nutbars before I could feel comfortable talking to or doing business with.

Ever since the personal became political...and people rose up to make that a reality...there's effectively been no real "safe space" for discussion, with scant few exceptions.

Basically, I'm saying those assholes succeeded and we're all living in an ever intensifying nightmare.

Have fun!

Congrats on being the last contributor, other than Yahtzee, to be let go. I think that means you won!

LostGryphon:
Ever since the personal became political...and people rose up to make that a reality...there's effectively been no real "safe space" for discussion, with scant few exceptions.

When wasn't the personal political? Politics is about how persons interact, it's always going to be personal for those involved.

Thaluikhain:

LostGryphon:
Ever since the personal became political...and people rose up to make that a reality...there's effectively been no real "safe space" for discussion, with scant few exceptions.

When wasn't the personal political?

When people debated one's points and ideas, not the person making the points, nor when associations with socially unsavory groups in order to dismiss their points or attack their integrity.
The personal wasn't political when one could hold beliefs and opinions without building an entire identity around it, one they feel is personally attacked when someone questions it's general set of ideas.

Granted, you won't find this in any particular space, you find it in small pockets in people.

Robert B. Marks:

So, I just got the word that this will be the last installment of Garwulf's Corner to run on The Escapist - I'm not sure how much I'm allowed to say at this point, so I'm going to consider myself not at liberty to go into too many details.

Hmm, can't say as that sounds good.

If more liberal authors and stars boycotted conventions, I certainly won't complain.

Too often, conservative voices are shouted down or no-platformed. If the Leftists want to remove themselves from the equation, I say: That's a great idea, actually. Why don't more of you do it?

It's like those people who said they'd flee to Canada after Trump's election, or those who said they'd commit suicide. Please, don't hold back on my account - Go for it. You do you, man.

I mean, just look at the fiasco with the Hugo Awards. Basically Fantasy and Science-Fiction is another battleground in the culture war, and *someone* has to fight the good fight.

Robert B. Marks:
Sorry to cut in, but this one's important.

So, I just got the word that this will be the last installment of Garwulf's Corner to run on The Escapist - I'm not sure how much I'm allowed to say at this point, so I'm going to consider myself not at liberty to go into too many details.

That said, I AM going to, at the very least, see if I can't run the last remaining installments on my Livejournal, with links and/or copies of the articles here in the forums, so that the last two or three installments actually do get to run.

Sorry for the conversation killer, but I didn't want any of my readers to think they were being forgotten as things develop.

Well that's an unfortunate shame. Either way, I just wanted to say that I've always enjoyed reading your columns and good luck with all future endeavors.

Saelune:
Well, lets talk about same-sex marriage. Why are so many people opposed to me getting married? How can I not take that as a personal attack when people try to take away my legal rights to partner with someone just because we're different than them?

"If any object to this union, please speak now"

Atleast 7million Californians would have spoken up if given the chance, considering thats around how many opposed gay marriage via Prop 8 less than 10 years ago.

And same-sex marriage being federally legalized was only by a 5-4 split on the Supreme Court.

If you want to do that, feel free to do that as a separate thread.

OT: Shame that this column's being shut down. I didn't read every column you wrote, but the ones I did were generally rational and well-written. Which is a rarity in this age of Youtubers.

Catnip1024:

Saelune:
Well, lets talk about same-sex marriage. Why are so many people opposed to me getting married? How can I not take that as a personal attack when people try to take away my legal rights to partner with someone just because we're different than them?

"If any object to this union, please speak now"

Atleast 7million Californians would have spoken up if given the chance, considering thats around how many opposed gay marriage via Prop 8 less than 10 years ago.

And same-sex marriage being federally legalized was only by a 5-4 split on the Supreme Court.

If you want to do that, feel free to do that as a separate thread.

OT: Shame that this column's being shut down. I didn't read every column you wrote, but the ones I did were generally rational and well-written. Which is a rarity in this age of Youtubers.

My post is on topic.

bjj hero:
You have the wrong idea. It is not about punishing anyone, it is about not supporting something you are against.

And everything is about politics. There are no politics free spaces.

OK, back to discussing this I guess.

You see, herein lie some problematics. First of all, the desire to cut off "support", whether material or just civil recognition, of "something you are against", rather than offering an alternative view, tends towards the practice of "politics by other means" as identified by Carl von Clausewitz. In other words, "war", in this case "culture war". The aim of war is to defeat the enemy, whether in conquest, defence or pursuit of some other objective. Is that really what we want to reduce culture (and politics) to?

Secondly, whether "everything is political" seems to be open to some element of choice. We might as well say "everything is Art", or indeed that "everything is a matter of True Religious Belief", whatever that may be. I mean, sure, you can make the case for each of these. But is it going to be a useful approach to life to consider, say, the bedraggled wino you pass urinating on the cornerstones of City Hall a work of art to analyze? "Ah yes, splendid! The pattern of Old Whisky-Bob's splatter reveals the haphazard flaring of pressing human need in all its bodily enscriptedness manifesting against the looming social construct of local governance, in an incommensurate collision of dazzling particles glinting against the square-cut, utilitarian authority of masonry, evoking the many-hued rainbow of human modalities in the simmering violence of noon sunshine. The very ephemerality of this work adds an almost unbearable pathos of mortal vulnerability, a shocking moment of recognition to jolt us all awake from our various complacencies." And believe me, I could go on and on like this.

"Politics" is properly the sphere of affairs that should be subject to public decision-making. Hence, "the personal is political" is a deliberate paradox, not a truism, and it's incumbent on us to consider whether it's one worth adopting, or whether there is a realm of the personal that does not need to or should not be made into an affair of the polis. And even if there isn't, there is that difference I mentioned earlier, between considering political matters and practising zero-sum political rivalries by any means, unto bitter victory and fresh rivalries.

Finally, surely a "politics-free space" is one of those cases like Free Will, in which we can't definitely prove its reality, but must assume it in order to have a chance of attaining it?

Just breaking in for a quick update - it looks like we might just have a solution that allows the final three installments to go live here on the Escapist, instead of needing to go onto my Livejournal.

More details to come.

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