"Gamers" Are Still Dead, Y'all

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Due to being Indonesian, vid related is higher on the progressive stack and is therefor automatically right.

Also....

believes strongly that minorities couldn't have realistically existed in fantasy medieval times

belief has nothing to do with factual information. Poland today is 95% Polish, with the non-white population being 1.4%. This is in the modern day, where the level is unprecedented in how high it is. The only people who are surprised that a game based on Polish lore are the same people who are surprised when a game set in Shogun Japan is entirely made up of Japanese characters.

Zontar:

I honestly can't understand where this is coming from. The only places in the West where hyper-violence is embraced are the same places nudity is as well. What America has isn't hyper-violence in its media, it has a bunch of guns going "bang bang" and "boom boom" very loudly. Just having a fist fight that results in a bit of blood is an automatic PG13, a gunshot wound that's realistic an automatic R. Hell compare Red Dawn to the remake and you'll see how far America has moved backwards in terms of how accepting it is of violence in media.

There isn't an acceptance of violence in the media in the US, there's an acceptance of the idea of violence, the abstract notion of it, but not the actual thing.

I think you're mostly right, though I'd say that the US is accepting of violence, but very stingy about the consequences of said violence. Show someone shooting, punching or blowing shit up and it is all fine. Show someone get seriously hurt by a gunshot, getting head trauma from repeated punches or losing a limb in an explosion and it is all severe ratings. As you say, the idea of violence is all nice and dandy and the glorification of violence as a means of conflict resolution is integral to most high cost Hollywood movies, but you better be real careful about showing any actual consequences of violence or the ratings board is coming down on you.

As for the topic at hand: I have no feelings about this whatsoever apart from amusement at the fact that we're still on this merry-go-round 3 years later.

Zontar:

believes strongly that minorities couldn't have realistically existed in fantasy medieval times

belief has nothing to do with factual information. Poland today is 95% Polish, with the non-white population being 1.4%. This is in the modern day, where the level is unprecedented in how high it is.

In Poland, yes, most people are (and were white). Which still does not mean that minorities don't or didn't exist, only that they are the minority. I'm also not sure why we should pretend that Poland is the sole medieval setting and discount many more diverse places.

Ok, I am sure, but I'm obliged to pretend not to know.

IceForce:
So, out of curiosity, I went and poked my head into a couple of off-site Gamergate haunts. Sure enough, this article has kicked up a hornet's nest.
In fact, I saw a couple of people suggesting the Escapist be put back on Gamergate's boycott list.

Ethics!

Oh dear Lord. Do you need a blanket and some hot cocoa?

vallorn:
Yeah I'm sure this article will go down well.

wait,

As Leigh Alexander has already said, "Gamers" are over. The worst aspects of the "gamer" image need to be universally examined and challenged.

Of all the people you could quote, you picked an unhirable bufoon whose antics killed not only the brand of her site but also the acceptance of gaming in the wider culture by use of overblown hyperbole and outright lies? Yeah ok. I'll just be over here watching this article get 'critiqued'.

This is literally the mentality that started the decline of this website years ago. Terrible idea from the "author".

Gotta say, it's always amazing to me when I read complaints about how gaming culture is always viewed through negative stereotypes about gamers, written by the same gaming press that propagates this mostly incorrect stereotype every single chance they get. And this, like all the others, flip-flops between complaining about the stereotype and claiming it is indeed correct.

Maybe, just MAYBE the reason why the public at large (if this claim is actually true) views gaming as a hostile space where all these horrible things run rampant is because their main looking glass into the subculture (read: the video game press) is so obsessed with "proving" their biases right.

Another interesting aspect is the idea that keeping gaming within its current sub-cultural sphere is somehow to the detriment to gaming itself, when observable reality tells us that the consistent attempts at mainstream appeal has done nothing but turn games in general more shallow and more shiny. This idea that a subculture needs to change in order to appeal to people not currently in it just seems weird and counterproductive to me.

Arean:
when observable reality tells us that the consistent attempts at mainstream appeal has done nothing but turn games in general more shallow and more shiny

"Observable reality" and your opinion are not the same thing.

And...if you are trying to argue that the gaming community isn't exclusive, that seems not a great way of doing it.

Thaluikhain:

Arean:
when observable reality tells us that the consistent attempts at mainstream appeal has done nothing but turn games in general more shallow and more shiny

"Observable reality" and your opinion are not the same thing.

And...if you are trying to argue that the gaming community isn't exclusive, that seems not a great way of doing it.

Just trying to keep with the authors example of stating opinion as fact. :P

From jokes to semi-seriousness, the claim that a greater mass-market appeal would somehow be a boon to the video game genre is floated a lot, but it's never really quantified, at least not as far as I can tell.

And exclusive to whom exactly? Subcultures are exclusive to the people who enjoy that subculture, that's kind of the function of a subculture. Video Game "culture", such as it is, excludes people who don't play video games, and beyond assertions that this is somehow wrong, I've seen no argument for the quantifiable benefit of appealing to the people who don't currently play video games over those who do.

I mean I get they wanted some clicks and traffic but this kind of exaggerated clearly controversial article just screams desperate.

Can't help but feel that this entire article comes across as posting nonsense for the sack of drawing clicks through controversy. It would not even surprise me if this turned out to be another sandy beaches. In any case, I still had a good laugh at it, so there is that atleast.

Zontar:
The only people who are surprised that a game based on Polish lore are the same people who are surprised when a game set in Shogun Japan is entirely made up of Japanese characters.

image
image

It's funny. It's apparently easier to put white people in a non-white setting, than the other way around. Why is one direction flexible and the other a hard edge?

NewClassic:

Marter:
I vehemently disagree with this.

It's "y'all."

Bah, I say we let it be a stylistic choice. "Y'all" is so structurally unbalanced. Isn't "ya'll" just so much more visually pleasing? (Also, I think it's more phonically accurate, given how the tongue rolls.)

It's "y'all" because it's the contracted form of "you all", the explicitly plural second person pronoun used in Southern American English and Appalachian English. It'd be like telling a Canadian that you're going to call poutine "pie-tang" because you like the sound of it better. You are literally appropriating my language and then abusing it.

Ogoid:

I beg to differ. Some are clearly making demands of both the entire games industry and the entire gaming community, with rhetoric only superficially different from that we've all been intimately familiar with since the 90's ("games are harmful"), that has been proven to have no substance whatsoever given the slightest amount of serious scrutiny; a kind of rhetoric that has already held back one entire art form for the better part of a century.

We replaced right wing Christians with left wing feminists with essentially the same ideas and goals. We're supposed to go along with it this time because it's coming from the right religion.

maninahat:
Now that said, there absolutely is criticism of sexism in tabletop and sports - and in the latter, I think the general public are a bit more receptive to the problem. News have entire sections for sports, and these routinely bring up sexism. Hell, they've just released a biopic movie about sexism in tennis.

Sexism in tennis? Does it go into the whole thing where women play fewer sets than men, but nowadays receive the same prize for doing so (literally getting the same money for less work)? In some cases this even allows women to earn more money in the same tournament by competing in both singles and doubles while men have to pick one.

Or was it all just people staring at women's asses that look good in tennis shorts, and it being unfair that the best female players simply aren't as good as the best male players (the Williams sisters both got pretty thoroughly destroyed by the ranked 203 male player after boasting that they could beat any man outside the top 200).

Vanilla ISIS:
3. Why do you take so many jabs at white men in this article? I've been hearing about how evil I am for the past decade or so and I've had enough.

This has been on the rise lately, and rather unfortunately the response seems to be for white people to adopt white identity politics rather than attempt to discard identity politics broadly.

Thaluikhain:

Again, not seeing anyone complain about games for merely including sex. Ok, there are probably some Mary Whitehouse types out there, but usually people are talking about how it's done, not that it's done.

Right, every now and then they get to praise a teen lesbian coming out story as the greatest game EVER. Actually thinking about it, it's almost always teen lesbians, isn't it...The Last of Us, Gone Home, Life is Strange...it might just be that people who like denouncing sex in games just have a particular fetish. =p

Thaluikhain:
Yes, it makes a profit...but then so does Michael Bay, Justin Bieber, Kendall Jenner etc. People are going to have things to say about those as well.

Yep, and I can say you have painfully awful taste for liking those things, but I'm not organizing social media campaigns to coerce theaters not to show Michael Bay movies, or to demand that venues cancel Bieber concerts.

By comparison, according to the artist responsible for it, the exposed midriff in the original Divinity: Original Sin cover art led to threats against the company and it's employees.

demoman_chaos:
Or are you trying to say that there are actually people who play video games who actually give a damn what bits you have between your legs? I really can't imagine you are saying the latter, and saying the first is like saying water is wet and pretending that men don't get similar remarks from the same twats (Like claiming only women get insults/death threats from people online which is fucking beyond utterly moronically retarded) so it can't be that one either because that would be dumb.

There was actually a study that showed that men receive more total threats and abuse online, but a smaller percentage of sexually-related harassment. Then again, I once got some threats for a post on the WoW forums that amounted to arguing that yes, one spec had a better version of a buff than another spec, but that said superior buff was the only reason that spec was even allowed in raids to begin with and they should fix that spec to be permissible in raids before they equalize the buff.

Ninjamedic:

Smithnikov:

I take it you weren't alive when Night Trap got dragged in front of Congress?

And now we're supposed to entertain the opinions of the moralisers and accept them without question. Funny that.

Of course. Like I said above, those moralizers were right-wing Christians, the new ones are left-wing feminists. You see, this time the same bullshit is acceptable because it's being done in the name of the right politics and the right religion.

Thaluikhain:

In Poland, yes, most people are (and were white). Which still does not mean that minorities don't or didn't exist, only that they are the minority. I'm also not sure why we should pretend that Poland is the sole medieval setting and discount many more diverse places.

Ok, I am sure, but I'm obliged to pretend not to know.

The complaint in question was most loudly and recently lodged at the Witcher games. The Witcher games are based off the book and are set in what is essentially mythic Poland, in no small part because the author is Polish and drew frequently from Polish folklore.

As for why more games aren't set in "diverse" environments, that's a minefield. See the controversy around Resident Evil 5, for example. White zombies are just zombies, black zombies are a racist symbol that's used as a heap excuse to kill black people.

Schadrach:
The complaint in question was most loudly and recently lodged at the Witcher games. The Witcher games are based off the book and are set in what is essentially mythic Poland, in no small part because the author is Polish and drew frequently from Polish folklore.

Ah...ok, I missed that one. That makes sense for that example.

undeadsuitor:

It's funny. It's apparently easier to put white people in a non-white setting, than the other way around. Why is one direction flexible and the other a hard edge?

American productions have American leads, see also the the live action Ghost In The Shell.

Gethsemani:

I think you're mostly right, though I'd say that the US is accepting of violence, but very stingy about the consequences of said violence. Show someone shooting, punching or blowing shit up and it is all fine. Show someone get seriously hurt by a gunshot, getting head trauma from repeated punches or losing a limb in an explosion and it is all severe ratings. As you say, the idea of violence is all nice and dandy and the glorification of violence as a means of conflict resolution is integral to most high cost Hollywood movies, but you better be real careful about showing any actual consequences of violence or the ratings board is coming down on you.

I have a game now where if an action film like John Wick is being slated by a publication for being "Hollywood gun porn" or something to that effect (like say, in The Guardian for example), I immediately look to see if the reviewer has looked at Captain America 2 or Rogue One and see no mention of the sterilised approach to the action despite it being glorified far more in those two films than in John Wick where Wick is fairly honest about it being an exercise in style and execution.

Schadrach:

Of course. Like I said above, those moralizers were right-wing Christians, the new ones are left-wing feminists. You see, this time the same bullshit is acceptable because it's being done in the name of the right politics and the right religion.

The Christians never left, they just decided to brand themselves as "counter-culture" for some fucking reason.

Ninjamedic:

undeadsuitor:

It's funny. It's apparently easier to put white people in a non-white setting, than the other way around. Why is one direction flexible and the other a hard edge?

American productions have American leads, see also the the live action Ghost In The Shell.

The Great Wall wasn't an american production, at least not 100%. Doesn't change that fact that white people have no problem inserting themselves into everything, but then tense up and claim "accuracy and realism" when non-white people want in on it

undeadsuitor:

The Great Wall wasn't an american production, at least not 100%. Doesn't change that fact that white people have no problem inserting themselves into everything, but then tense up and claim "accuracy and realism" when non-white people want in on it

You're forgetting the backlash Ghost In the Shell initially got for it's casting, and Great Wall was primarily bankrolled by Universal.

And even then, this is in regards to The Witcher, a game made in and based on the culture of a country with a completely different history to the US in regards to racism and oppression, why is their approach wrong?

This kind of writing is sad and reeks of desperation. Desperation to stay relevant, desperation to get attention (read ad views). Very disheartening to see on this site. This site was good once, I remember like it was only yesterday, but really it was like 8 years ago.

undeadsuitor:

Zontar:
The only people who are surprised that a game based on Polish lore are the same people who are surprised when a game set in Shogun Japan is entirely made up of Japanese characters.

image
image

It's funny. It's apparently easier to put white people in a non-white setting, than the other way around. Why is one direction flexible and the other a hard edge?

In the cases of Chinese movies, it is actually more complicated. From what I remember, getting a big American film star (who are mostly white) in your movie is actually seen as something of a status symbol over there.

Ninjamedic:

undeadsuitor:

The Great Wall wasn't an american production, at least not 100%. Doesn't change that fact that white people have no problem inserting themselves into everything, but then tense up and claim "accuracy and realism" when non-white people want in on it

You're forgetting the backlash Ghost In the Shell initially got for it's casting, and Great Wall was primarily bankrolled by Universal.

And even then, this is in regards to The Witcher, a game made in and based on the culture of a country with a completely different history to the US in regards to racism and oppression, why is their approach wrong?

Wait, based on the culture of Poland? Weren't there not!Vikings in that game? That's not particularly Polish. (Have only played bits of the first two games and not the third, honestly just trying to understand here.)

So is this article writer trolling me or is it just me?

Zontar:

TallestGargoyle:
We'll let teens watch hyper-violent gun-toting trash without batting an eye, but we want to protect our youth from ever experiencing a nipple, an exposed breast, a vagina, testicles, penis, whatever

I honestly can't understand where this is coming from. The only places in the West where hyper-violence is embraced are the same places nudity is as well. What America has isn't hyper-violence in its media, it has a bunch of guns going "bang bang" and "boom boom" very loudly. Just having a fist fight that results in a bit of blood is an automatic PG13, a gunshot wound that's realistic an automatic R. Hell compare Red Dawn to the remake and you'll see how far America has moved backwards in terms of how accepting it is of violence in media.

There isn't an acceptance of violence in the media in the US, there's an acceptance of the idea of violence, the abstract notion of it, but not the actual thing.

And yet, have even the slightest bit of full frontal nudity, easily an R, if not NC17. PG-13 can have gun violence, but you ain't seeing an exposed breast.

erttheking:

Wait, based on the culture of Poland? Weren't there not!Vikings in that game? That's not particularly Polish.

My point is that since Witcher 2 we've had this keep popping up where it's a bad thing that they don't include characters of different ethnicity based on US expectations. I'm just pointing out that as they come from Poland and have their own history to draw from including oppression from European powers, they'll have their own history and experiences to draw from.

Ninjamedic:

erttheking:

Wait, based on the culture of Poland? Weren't there not!Vikings in that game? That's not particularly Polish.

My point is that since Witcher 2 we've had this keep popping up where it's a bad thing that they don't include characters of different ethnicity based on US expectations. I'm just pointing out that as they come from Poland and have their own history to draw from including oppression from European powers, they'll have their own history and experiences to draw from.

I suppose. I'm not the among the people who says that there should be black characters in the Witcher, but I'm not going to say that asking for it (asking, not demanding) is unreasonable. I mean, even with my limited experience of the Witcher, I know the big bad in the first game had a very Middle Eastern look and name.

http://witcher.wikia.com/wiki/Azar_Javed

So it's not like it's beyond them. I mean, hey, if they don't want to? Fine. But I don't think it's beyond them is all I'm saying.

erttheking:
But I don't think it's beyond them is all I'm saying.

Isn't that point that the point though? That isn't all that's being said now is it?

Ninjamedic:

erttheking:
But I don't think it's beyond them is all I'm saying.

Isn't that point that the point though? That isn't all that's being said now is it?

Well, I can't speak for others, but it's all I'm personally saying.

erttheking:

Wait, based on the culture of Poland? Weren't there not!Vikings in that game? That's not particularly Polish. (Have only played bits of the first two games and not the third, honestly just trying to understand here.)

image

This is a map of the Baltic Sea. Think a seafaring people could have made it from Scandinavia to Poland across that? The remnants of their settlements, graves etc. suggest they did, in those most medieval of times.

Lets see if I nail this situation right. The escapist has been dying with hardly any news articles or editorials for months. The site has hardly any upkeep and forums are filled with Chinese spam. Now this article is a desperate attempt to drive outrage clicks and traffic back to the site. Sound about right?

Edit: Oh and I actually have been one of those paying for a pub membership each year to try and help keep this site afloat. If this place just simply morphs into an outrage bait site then I am out.

erttheking:
Wait, based on the culture of Poland? Weren't there not!Vikings in that game? That's not particularly Polish. (Have only played bits of the first two games and not the third, honestly just trying to understand here.)

The Witcher books (yes, those are games after books) are basically about fantasy Poland and neighbours. When the strange worldhopping subplot starts, it gets even explicit by croosover with the real world. Most of the mosters are Polish too. Referrences to some further away countries exist but those referrences are far more vague.

So yes, i would not expect to see a significant number of black people in the Witcher.
And similar things are true for a lot of other fantasy-counterpart-Europe settings. Especcially when the games actually are from Europe where the US history with blacks simply does not exist.

The Witcher does have minorities and discrimination. As do the books. Not surprisingly a lot seems modelled on Polish medieval minorities, especcially jews.

Can't say I agree with the Article.

I'd like to see under what reasoning any criticism is apparently valid. Something tells me there is literally nothing backing that assertion up.

Also, those Articles I did read I recall having been written so as to paint a stereotype of Gamers, not a specific subsect of people within the culture. I wasn't involved in GamerGate, but no matter how you cut it, the Journalists screwed up big time. What started with some people bitching about Zoey Quinn exploded into a all out revolt of the Community against the Journalists and their Sycophants.

But it was inevitible. Bullshit opinions from Pundits were being given undue attention. And with the entire tactics of these people being one of suppression, it had to boil over.

Arean:

And exclusive to whom exactly? Subcultures are exclusive to the people who enjoy that subculture, that's kind of the function of a subculture. Video Game "culture", such as it is, excludes people who don't play video games, and beyond assertions that this is somehow wrong, I've seen no argument for the quantifiable benefit of appealing to the people who don't currently play video games over those who do.

So what's the excuse for turning your ire on long time members and advocates of that subculture just because their politics aren't in line with what's fashionable for the culture to have?

Schadrach:

Right, every now and then they get to praise a teen lesbian coming out story as the greatest game EVER. Actually thinking about it, it's almost always teen lesbians, isn't it...The Last of Us, Gone Home, Life is Strange...it might just be that people who like denouncing sex in games just have a particular fetish. =p

Well, it would explain why you people were praising Haydee so much...

Of course. Like I said above, those moralizers were right-wing Christians, the new ones are left-wing feminists. You see, this time the same bullshit is acceptable because it's being done in the name of the right politics and the right religion.

Thing is, our glorious Gatekeepers now demand we embrace the former simply because they aren't the left wing feminists. Right wing bullshit became acceptable, even demanded. That doesn't fly with those of us who have working memories.

Smithnikov:

Schadrach:

Right, every now and then they get to praise a teen lesbian coming out story as the greatest game EVER. Actually thinking about it, it's almost always teen lesbians, isn't it...The Last of Us, Gone Home, Life is Strange...it might just be that people who like denouncing sex in games just have a particular fetish. =p

Well, it would explain why you people were praising Haydee so much...

Of course. Like I said above, those moralizers were right-wing Christians, the new ones are left-wing feminists. You see, this time the same bullshit is acceptable because it's being done in the name of the right politics and the right religion.

Thing is, our glorious Gatekeepers now demand we embrace the former simply because they aren't the left wing feminists. Right wing bullshit became acceptable, even demanded. That doesn't fly with those of us who have working memories.

Where is this supposedly happening? Apart from Zontar, all I ever see are wacky SJWs. Certainly not here.

And really, pretty sure most people don't care what you think as long as you aren't annoying them over it.

undeadsuitor:
image
image

It's funny. It's apparently easier to put white people in a non-white setting, than the other way around. Why is one direction flexible and the other a hard edge?

1. The Last Samurai is roughly based on Jules Brunet, A French Army Captain who fought in the Boshin War. Very loosely, at best, but, still, not inaccurate, nor a work of complete fantasy.

Similarity, Yasuke is a well documented black samurai, likely from Portugal. And served as inspiration for Afro Samurai, a character in Nioh and an upcoming film.

2. You may have missed the part in The Great Wall where giant green monsters where attacking. But, ignoring the fact the film presents itself quite clearly as a work of fantasy... The characters are European traders. Something well documented in China at the time. And such traders or adventurers would often go to the orient and return with mystical tales, which is what the film is trying to evoke.

As such, the two examples you give focus entirely on exceptional cases. What you're suggesting for The Witcher is that there should be enough of a significant number of non-polish people in 12th century Poland that the brief time we're there, we should encounter a few of them.

In reality, chances are, no more than a few people of any skin colour darker than "Mocha" were in Poland during this time, likely traders, or involved in it in some capacity. As such, it's quite unlikely you'd encounter them as a Monster Slayer who wanders through swamps.

Regardless, you might cry "Well, surely, you'd encounter one?! I mean, yes, it's statistically basically impossible, but, surely one!".

Which, to which you'd be correct, you do encounter one such merchant. However, it seems the bickering and bitching about The Witcher 3 failed to play the game long enough to encounter him.

http://witcher.wikia.com/wiki/Merchant_(Upper_Mill)

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