Sex and Violence: Welcome to Adulthood

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Tenmar:

Tenmar:

Tenmar:
I know that when it comes to video games I have essentially "graduated" and there really isn't anything more video games can teach me.

There isn't anything more that video games can teach?! Are you serious?

Wait... are you one of the game developers that Heather Chaplin is talking about?

Keyword you left out in your post. "me". I think video games are great for teaching people the basics or a specific concept of a subject. Construction in World of Goo would be a good example in building bridges was mentioned by Josh when we had a discussion last night in the Mumble channel. While I had the same concept taught to me in the seventh grade with using toothpicks it still is a good foundation to learn from.

Taking those teachings to the next level is the problem. Chances are a video game is not going to teach someone calculus or the philisophical teachings of Thomas Hobbes. If you really do want to learn more about philisophy, math, art, or history you really have to do it yourself. College and video games have taught me that.

No I didn't conveniently ignore the word "me" in there. Your argument is that games are simple toys and have nothing really substantial to offer adults. Just because "you" aren't learning anymore from games doesn't mean video games can't teach "you" more. And that ties back into the discussion about the maturity shown in games in that, just because video games really started out as a childhood pastime, doesn't mean they can't evolve into something for adults. Video games are just a content vehicle like any other medium; it's what you do with that medium that counts. Yet you claim that video games are incapable of offering mature content... why is that? Apparently it has something to do with toy makers, but I'm obviously not understanding.

Tenmar:
Well turbotica if you are suggesting they are indeed wrong. Then why don't you take the time to inform them what is right? What is your opinion on the subject?

I think he shares the sentiments of others who have already expressed their views on the subject. Maybe he has more to offer though.

turbotica:
This is a remarkably bad argument.

Here's your claim:

"adolescent male fantasies are responsible for the majority of our great works of entertainment and art"

Here's your evidence:

1) you like adolescent male fantasies in entertainment and perhaps in your private life.

2) Antonioni, the Blues, a photograph of a boxing match, Cormac McCarthy, Jean Luc Godard.

You might want to try a little harder on this one, kiddo.

For one, your survey of "great works of entertainment and art" is less than expansive. Not exactly up on our Proust, are we? No; Your little bowl of cherries here seems more like the kind of thing a boy would pick--which I suppose leads us to our second point.

Are you writing for The Escapist or The Projectionist? It's one thing to wear your neotony proudly; it's quite another to cover the whole world with it. You're right to describe video games as adolescent male fantasy; you're wrong to see every exploration of sex or violence as the same thing. You're projecting your Peter Pan syndrome onto everybody else's mature work (or at least onto Cormac McCarthy's and the Blues).

In other words, it's not just that your world is tiny; it's that it consists of nothing but yourself.

But, then, solipsism and narcissism are pathologies of adolescence. What can you do?!?

Actually, Peak Shift is responsible for many "great works of entertainment and art":

http://www.pbs.org/howartmadetheworld/episodes/human/

I agree completely with this article.

There is absolutely no reason that I should 'grow up' to play games, is the idea of gun fights and sexy women as an entertainment form supposed to be beneath me?

I am a passive person by nature yet I still enjoy reducing aliens/zombies/soldiers to a fine paste with a shotgun, I have a girlfriend who I love very much (and I think she's the most beautiful woman I've ever seen) yet I still enjoy the sight of boobs and cleavage (be it in games or films).

As I once heard it put,'being an adult sucks but the orgasms are great'.

image

Iron Mal:
I agree completely with this article.

There is absolutely no reason that I should 'grow up' to play games, is the idea of gun fights and sexy women as an entertainment form supposed to be beneath me?

Again, people are missing the point. It's not that all games need to grow up, it's that video games need to diversify what they offer. Developers need to keep making what they make, but someone has to realize that a market for mature games exists and offer those as well.

I just want a fucking sophisticated video game made for adults, okay?

;-)

Echolocating:

I just want a fucking sophisticated video game made for adults, okay?

;-)

Then could you provide an example of this "fucking" sophisticated video game made for adults?

I honestly feel that without any examples you are really asking for something that you personally cannot conceive yourself.

I see video games as a tool for children to learn from and should not be something that adults should focus on because when they are adults there are already a lot of other problems in the world.

For example, tribes of hunter gatherers would have their male children train by playing games. One well known example is throwing sticks through moving rings. This game provided entertainment for children but also taught them something by head faking them for something they will need when they grow up. They will learn how to be able to strike a moving target in order to provide sustenance for the tribe when they become adults. Games are made with this in mind and video games are no different when you really look and see what a child can learn from video games. As an adult identifying what a person will learn is easier and chances are already know of the concepts. Imagine if that child who now became a man for his tribe focused on just playing that game and never went out to hunt. The tribe would starve and would not have the resources to survive.

Going back to the modern world it is a lot harder to say when looking for employment or participating in the work force that you are 100 percent fully qualifier because you played video games. Sure you will understand the concepts and video games can show that you have the capacity to learn and be that doctor, manager, director, policeman but you have to grow up and stop playing the game as your source of information and be there on the hunt.

So in short let me stress this again. I'm pretty confident that video games have nothing to teach ME. My opinion on video games growing up is that they should not because video games can be used to teach children to prepare them for adulthood. Although they are a nice form of entertainment an adult would have a harder time saying they really learned something from playing video games because due to our educational systems no matter what you think of them the adult should already have the ability to analyze and see the concept or lesson that video game subtly teaches.

Doug:

SlaughterRot:

dogstile:
i like both those things, and rockstar seems to have got that down perfectly :P

Saint's Row 2 is arguably better, in my opinion. And that's not stemming from the ZP review - I had racked up 72 hours of game time on my save before Yahtzee reviewed it. lol

I liked Saints Row 2, but I found the characters incredible unlikable. Johnie is a fuckwit sociopathic murder, your character is pretty much the same, and everyone else is just wasted. Fun game but the cutscenes and characters just made me want to avoid the plot.

Are you kidding?! Johnie was my second favourite character (after my own) and was the greatest npc in the game. Then again I like sociopathic murderers in games.

My response is in BOLD

turbotica:

bjj hero:
Sex and violence are, at heart, adult subjects, part of adult life.

This is not true.

Sex and violence are neither necessarily adult, nor necessarily adolescent.

I totally Disagree, a major part of adulthood on all living being is SEX, learn that. Also violence is a tendency among species to set up their individual status as leaders. in a world that leaders are there not because of how much physical strength they have but on how many people they have back stabbed to get there. thus instinctive angers build up because males always feel the need to become the alpha male on the pack, going back to my sex argument.

You're making the inverse of the error Endo made.

He argued that, because adolescent male fantasies focus on themes of sex and violence, whenever you find themes of sex and violence, you find adolescent male fantasy.

You're both wrong.

Have your testicles droped yet? because it tends to cause these thing, cheek out the effects of testosterone on the human mind, they include an increase in libido and irritability

bjj hero:
Fine art is famous for being racey and loving the naked form.

1) Fine art is famous for being fine. the female body has always been revered as being one of the most finest of art, I am gay and I still admire it's beautiful curves and contours.

2) Nudity and sexual themes are not always adolescent male fantasy. Im still wondering if you have reached puberty.

bjj hero:
This only seems to change with a poke from anal retentive religeous movements,

That's not what 'anal retentive' means. You mean 'prudish' or 'sexually repressive'.
Yes he used the wrong term but hes idea is correct, you are wondering off on technicalities my friend.

bjj hero:
there are plenty of examples of smut if you look for them.

This is an adolescent assessment. Nudity does not equal smut, except in the minds of children, adolescent males, and the sexually repressed.
Actually you win here, those whom have not gotten any feel sexually more often than those whom have had.

bjj hero:
Quit looking down your nose quoting Proust; its the Escapist, not the Elitist.

I didn't quote Proust. As Clemenstation pointed out with mighty wit, I name-dropped him.

It's (note the apostrophe) The Escapist, indeed, but if you don't think this magazine has an elitist bent, well, I guess Yahtzee fooled you.

And, yes, in the colloquial sense, I am now being anal. But not adolescent!

Tenmar:
I see video games as a tool for children to learn from and should not be something that adults should focus on because when they are adults there are already a lot of other problems in the world.

Video games are for entertainment. Some teach, some don't, but the focus of video games isn't to solely teach. What did Super Mario Bros. teach you about life? That the princess is in another castle? Please.

Tenmar:
I honestly feel that without any examples you are really asking for something that you personally cannot conceive yourself.

If I couldn't imagine more mature games, I wouldn't be arguing for them. In fact, there are a few games out there that do offer me some of what I'm looking for.

Hotel Dusk for the Nintendo DS. It's a detective puzzle/adventure game with the best characters I've ever seen, an intriguing plot that keeps you wondering what's next, and clever challenges that actually fit within the environment. There's no scantily clad woman, gratuitous violence, nor any equal in the game industry.

There are other methods of entertainment other than fun. For example, a depressing film can be even more rewarding than the most action filled movie imaginable. Why aren't more games like that? Why do the majority of so-called serious games revolve around killing or defeating foes? Why not survive against the environment or focus on finding ways to protect yourself instead of killing the bad guys? Why not have a romantic interest that has flaws; physical and/or emotional? I could go on.

The part that I don't understand with people who are protecting the way games are today is that by doing so, you are condemning them to simply being a child's toy. You are giving more fuel to the ignorance surrounding games in the adult world, specifically with the people that regulate these things and those that use fear mongering to scare the uneducated masses (parents). A single movie might come under fire, but not the film industry, yet the entire videogame industry is under fire in most cases because it's supposedly a dangerous toy for children. If you allow yourself to imagine video gaming as a powerful medium that has limitless potential for expression, you allow the industry to grow. With those kinds of thoughts, video games begin to offer something more than childish experiences and become a more respectable industry and medium.

WendelI:
My response is in BOLD...

You don't have to attack another person to make your point.

turbotica:

bjj hero:
Sex and violence are, at heart, adult subjects, part of adult life.

This is not true.

Sex and violence are neither necessarily adult, nor necessarily adolescent.

You're making the inverse of the error Endo made.

He argued that, because adolescent male fantasies focus on themes of sex and violence, whenever you find themes of sex and violence, you find adolescent male fantasy.

You're both wrong.

Are you saying sex is not part of adult life? How do you think you were made? Its involved in massive amounts of adult life. Office politics, advertising, daily interaction, adult relationships. ITs everywhere you look. Sex is part of life. Generally its only through crazy religeous brainwashing (priests, nuns) that people opt out of sex.

turbotica:

bjj hero:
Fine art is famous for being racey and loving the naked form.

1) Fine art is famous for being fine.

2) Nudity and sexual themes are not always adolescent male fantasy.

But the naked form is still a reoccuring topic throughout art history, you could argue similarly to video games/TV/Advertising

turbotica:

bjj hero:
This only seems to change with a poke from anal retentive religeous movements,

That's not what 'anal retentive' means. You mean 'prudish' or 'sexually repressive'.

So I used the wrong term, my point is still valid, sexuality and nudity has been part of art since recording began.

turbotica:

bjj hero:
there are plenty of examples of smut if you look for them.

This is an adolescent assessment. Nudity does not equal smut, except in the minds of children, adolescent males, and the sexually repressed.

Only as adolescent as most organised religions and other conservative groups who see whores everywhere they look in the media.

turbotica:
It's (note the apostrophe) The Escapist, indeed, but if you don't think this magazine has an elitist bent, well, I guess Yahtzee fooled you.

And, yes, in the colloquial sense, I am now being anal. But not adolescent!

You seem to prefer to be pedantic and argue grammar rather than discuss the topic on the thread. That doesn't suggest your agument is the most sound. You were being both anal and adolescent, talking down to others instead of furthering discussion and putting forward your position on the OP.

Maybe in a few years time you will be old enough to discuss topics like an adult.

Jester Lord:

Doug:

SlaughterRot:

dogstile:
i like both those things, and rockstar seems to have got that down perfectly :P

Saint's Row 2 is arguably better, in my opinion. And that's not stemming from the ZP review - I had racked up 72 hours of game time on my save before Yahtzee reviewed it. lol

I liked Saints Row 2, but I found the characters incredible unlikable. Johnie is a fuckwit sociopathic murder, your character is pretty much the same, and everyone else is just wasted. Fun game but the cutscenes and characters just made me want to avoid the plot.

Are you kidding?! Johnie was my second favourite character (after my own) and was the greatest npc in the game. Then again I like sociopathic murderers in games.

Well, thats your own opinion, as was the previous post mine. I personally find that type of bloke an complete arsehat, but thats the way I see things.

Cheeze_Pavilion:

Actually, Peak Shift is responsible for many "great works of entertainment and art"

Peak Shift is neither the same thing as adolescent male fantasy, nor in any way proven to have a role in art.

bjj hero:
Are you saying sex is not part of adult life?

No. I am saying that it is understood differently at different stages of life.

Just like violence.

bjj hero:
But the naked form is still a reoccuring topic throughout art history, you could argue similarly to video games/TV/Advertising

No; there are different ways of handling sexuality. Sex is handled differently by great art than it is by video games.

Video games treat sexuality as masturbatory adolescent male fantasy. Endo is perfectly correct about this, as is Heather Chaplin.

Where Endo and you are wrong is to suggest that all treatments of sex (and violence) in all media throughout history are also adolescent male fantasy.

Endo wants to assert the right to enjoy adolescent male fantasy in his video games. Unfortunately, he doesn't have the courage to do this straightforwardly. He's trying to hide behind the skirts of other, more prestigious media. To hide in this way, he needs to pretend that these other media handle themes of sex and violence in the same way that video games do.

His argument is risible. Or would be, if it didn't represent the mainstream of thinking in the video game community: players simply can't understand the world except in terms of adolescent male fantasy.

For you, any female nudity is always and only 'boobies'.

turbotica:

For you, any female nudity is always and only 'boobies'.

I cna remember watching the shining when the dead woman gets out of the shower, I was most definately not thinking boobies...

Id also argue girls in bikinis on games is no different than Zangief wrestling Ryu in just his speedos.

Getting nekkid is part of life. Try and relax, its a good thing.

So, really, what Endo is looking for is this.

Onechanbara: Bikini Samurai Squad. Knock yourself out, man.

It's got sexy women, it's got bloody violence. What more could anyone want?

I find this article deeply depressing. While I haven't heard what Chaplin had to say, I'm very sympathetic to the idea that games pander to arrested adolescents, and that this pandering is to the detriment of everyone involved (publishers, developers, consumers). The gaming industry resembles nothing so much as the porn industry: a slightly subterranean offshoot of movies that makes significantly more money than its respectable older brother but is still (rightly, in my opinion) condescended to by mainstream culture (not to say that most movies aren't exploitative and crass).

Endo himself admits that games could and should deal with the (totally legitimate, don't get me wrong) subjects of sex and violence "more subtly, in more thematically complex ways and without the same parade of space marines and zombies," but he seems happy to keep wallowing until someone else sorts that out. Cormac McCarthy'll turn up soon enough; in the mean time, here's Jean Claude van Damme firing an M16 while doing a backflip in slow-motion. Kickass.

I'm sorry for how self-righteous this all sounds. I'm a gamer and a habitual viewer of pornography myself; the latter I'm just flat-out ashamed of (maybe not even that--it's more like I'm ashamed that I'm not ashamed of it), and I don't see anything changing that. As for the former, I really believe that it can be more than a matter of passively consuming salacious drivel, which is why I get upset when people come out and say "oh, that's just elitist rubbish--chainsawing a guy's head off is a natural human impulse and shouldn't be inhibited."

As to bjj hero's "Id also argue girls in bikinis on games is no different than Zangief wrestling Ryu in just his speedos."

I have to disagree. Unless you're arguing that Zangief's outfit was specifically intended to sexualise him?

bjj hero:

Getting nekkid is part of life. Try and relax, its a good thing.

What?

You're not parsing the argument correctly. No one's against nudity. Or sex or violence.

You need some kind of special, remedial thread.

TheReactorSings:
As to bjj hero's "Id also argue girls in bikinis on games is no different than Zangief wrestling Ryu in just his speedos."

I have to disagree. Unless you're arguing that Zangief's outfit was specifically intended to sexualise him?

Zangief was fighting in his underwear before fighting in your underwear was cool. You dont see olympic wrestlers in just their pants and he does seem to be packing a sock...

turbotica:

bjj hero:

Getting nekkid is part of life. Try and relax, its a good thing.

What?

You're not parsing the argument correctly. No one's against nudity. Or sex or violence.

You need some kind of special, remedial thread.

Im not going to join in throwing adolescent insults, Im not that insecure. Come back when youve done something with your life and we can start the pissing contest then, rather than over some thread on the internet. My point was that whether youre mature or juvenile, nudity is part of life. Out side of a few specialist Japanese titles we dont get to see wet vaginas, theres the odd B movie style game (ninja gaiden) thats quite sexualised but its, on a whole, not that bad. The women do have fantastic bodies but so do the men, similar to films, its just make believe.

bjj hero:

Im not going to join in throwing adolescent insults,

Yes; you will.

bjj hero:
Im not that insecure.

Yes; you are.

bjj hero:
Come back when youve done something with your life...

See?

bjj hero:
My point was that whether youre mature or juvenile, nudity is part of life.

I know that was your point. Unfortunately, your point is irrelevant. No one argued the contrary to your point.

The dispute is not over whether there should be any nudity or sex or violence in video games--or in any other medium.

In other words, you're trying to jump into a conversation that you clearly don't understand.

I encourage you to keep trying, however, as you're bound to hit upon the subject that has driven the thread sooner or later. You'll feel good when people finally respond to you as if you know what's going on, and perhaps you'll even add something worthwhile to the discussion.

Don't get me wrong: you won't realize that you're making a contribution. You'll have as little understanding of why your new point is relevant as you do of why your old one is irrelevant. But if you keep throwing random strands of thought at the wall, one is bound to stick.

turbotica:

bjj hero:
Come back when youve done something with your life...

See?

A challenge, not an insult. there is a difference. See?

The biggest difference is that I've not been attacking others to make a point. Its not about winning or losing we're sharing ideas here, discussion. Its why I tend to come here instead of some other sites that flame you depending on which console you play/music you like/films you watch. Sometimes people do miss the point, Ive done it before, so has everyone at some point. There is no need to be shouting people down or hurling insult. You can even agree to disagree. Not everything is right or wrong.

There are better ways to feel good about yourself. I recommend hobbies, exercise, positive self talk (some need NLP more than others) and building interpersonal relationships. A social support network if you will.

As my favourite drama teacher said to me, "If you want to make something funny just use a cock joke, it's easier than wit". He also, in a PSHE lesson, when asked if he'd like to have another child replied to the 15 year old girl "Not right now, I've got a lesson to teach, maybe afterwards."

If you're out there Mr Probert (I know, what a name) I am eternally grateful for your teaching and I want to buy you a keg.

Cheeze_Pavilion:
image

Gotta love the xkcd, that's a sweet ass-picture

bjj hero:

turbotica:

bjj hero:
Come back when youve done something with your life...

See?

A challenge, not an insult. there is a difference. See?

Yes there is a difference, and blatantly implying that they are a loser is insulting, whereas constructive criticism is actually a challange as you're giving them something to actually do.
Also I've read through a few of your posts and you should aim to be less hypocritical in your arguments such as when you said turbotica was "talking down to others instead of furthering discussion and putting forward your position on the OP" when this is exactly what you have done above.
I'm very dissappointed.

turbotica:

Cheeze_Pavilion:

Actually, Peak Shift is responsible for many "great works of entertainment and art"

Peak Shift is neither the same thing as adolescent male fantasy, nor in any way proven to have a role in art.

What you said before the comma was my point--what you said after the comma is basically just wishful thinking.

Echolocating:

The part that I don't understand with people who are protecting the way games are today is that by doing so, you are condemning them to simply being a child's toy. You are giving more fuel to the ignorance surrounding games in the adult world, specifically with the people that regulate these things and those that use fear mongering to scare the uneducated masses (parents). A single movie might come under fire, but not the film industry, yet the entire videogame industry is under fire in most cases because it's supposedly a dangerous toy for children. If you allow yourself to imagine video gaming as a powerful medium that has limitless potential for expression, you allow the industry to grow. With those kinds of thoughts, video games begin to offer something more than childish experiences and become a more respectable industry and medium.

Maybe we're 100 percent okay with that.

Maybe we think that instead of trying to protect games by making them 'serious' we'd rather see society find value in something that is 'just a toy'. Maybe we think play--even childish play--is an important liberty worthy of protection.

Maybe we don't want to continue to give the fearmongers even more power than they have now by conforming, by allowing them to use another medium to advance the idea that 'adult=immoral' and 'safe for children=good'. Maybe we want to break the connection between something being inappropriate for children and something being morally questionable or obscene.

I don't get what is so bad about something being a "child's toy": games like _Civilization_ and _Railroad Tycoon_ are electronic versions of playing with the action figures or toy trains which children enjoy, only in versions complex enough to hold the interest of adults. What's the problem with that? Why do you talk of "toys" or things that are "childish" in such a negative fashion? Why do you care about the respect of people who don't recognize the value of play?

Cheeze_Pavilion:

Echolocating:

The part that I don't understand with people who are protecting the way games are today is that by doing so, you are condemning them to simply being a child's toy. You are giving more fuel to the ignorance surrounding games in the adult world, specifically with the people that regulate these things and those that use fear mongering to scare the uneducated masses (parents). A single movie might come under fire, but not the film industry, yet the entire videogame industry is under fire in most cases because it's supposedly a dangerous toy for children. If you allow yourself to imagine video gaming as a powerful medium that has limitless potential for expression, you allow the industry to grow. With those kinds of thoughts, video games begin to offer something more than childish experiences and become a more respectable industry and medium.

Maybe we're 100 percent okay with that.

Maybe we think that instead of trying to protect games by making them 'serious' we'd rather see society find value in something that is 'just a toy'. Maybe we think play--even childish play--is an important liberty worthy of protection.

Are you honestly concerned that if mature video games were made, the development of games for kids would cease to exist? You're not protecting anything. I'm okay if you don't want mature content in the video games that you play, but to argue to deny others is selfish.

Cheeze_Pavilion:
Maybe we don't want to continue to give the fearmongers even more power than they have now by conforming, by allowing them to use another medium to advance the idea that 'adult=immoral' and 'safe for children=good'. Maybe we want to break the connection between something being inappropriate for children and something being morally questionable or obscene.

Yeah, look how film, music, and literature have suffered. Give me a break.

Cheeze_Pavilion:
I don't get what is so bad about something being a "child's toy": games like _Civilization_ and _Railroad Tycoon_ are electronic versions of playing with the action figures or toy trains which children enjoy, only in versions complex enough to hold the interest of adults. What's the problem with that?

There's nothing wrong with that. I've never said there was. I simply want diversity; not to eliminate the types of games currently being made... because why would I deny others something that they enjoy? Hmmm?

Cheeze_Pavilion:
Why do you talk of "toys" or things that are "childish" in such a negative fashion?

Because I'm grumpy... and still amazed that someone is arguing that by making mature video games (something I'd like to play), that would somehow affect their enjoyment that they have for the way games currently are.

Cheeze_Pavilion:
Why do you care about the respect of people who don't recognize the value of play?

I don't care about their respect. I just think that having mature games would have the added benefit of showing these types of people that video games are not evil. I don't think developers should make it their mission to convince these people either way.

Ready for round 2, Cheese?

Echolocating:

Cheeze_Pavilion:

Maybe we're 100 percent okay with that.

Maybe we think that instead of trying to protect games by making them 'serious' we'd rather see society find value in something that is 'just a toy'. Maybe we think play--even childish play--is an important liberty worthy of protection.

Are you honestly concerned that if mature video games were made, the development of games for kids would cease to exist? You're not protecting anything. I'm okay if you don't want mature content in the video games that you play, but to argue to deny others is selfish.

Cheeze_Pavilion:
I don't get what is so bad about something being a "child's toy": games like _Civilization_ and _Railroad Tycoon_ are electronic versions of playing with the action figures or toy trains which children enjoy, only in versions complex enough to hold the interest of adults. What's the problem with that?

There's nothing wrong with that. I've never said there was. I simply want diversity; not to eliminate the types of games currently being made... because why would I deny others something that they enjoy? Hmmm?

1) Why do you think anyone is trying to "deny" you anything?

2) How is calling something "childish" in the manner you are here not saying there is something "wrong with that"?

Cheeze_Pavilion:
Why do you talk of "toys" or things that are "childish" in such a negative fashion?

Because I'm grumpy... and still amazed that someone is arguing that by making mature video games (something I'd like to play), that would somehow affect their enjoyment that they have for the way games currently are.

I think it's more that people are arguing with you because in order to show the value in the games you want in the future, you are putting down the games in the present that bore you. Why can't you argue *for* the games you want without arguing *against* the games you don't?

Cheeze_Pavilion:
Maybe we don't want to continue to give the fearmongers even more power than they have now by conforming, by allowing them to use another medium to advance the idea that 'adult=immoral' and 'safe for children=good'. Maybe we want to break the connection between something being inappropriate for children and something being morally questionable or obscene.

Yeah, look how film, music, and literature have suffered. Give me a break.

You're not serious, are you? From _A Clockwork Orange_ bumping up against an X rating to the career of Lenny Bruce, the idea that 'adult=immoral' *has* set back artistic media again and again.

Cheeze_Pavilion:
Why do you care about the respect of people who don't recognize the value of play?

I don't care about their respect. I just think that having mature games would have the added benefit of showing these types of people that video games are not evil. I don't think developers should make it their mission to convince these people either way.

Ready for round 2, Cheese?

Um, sure, but I'm not sure what you're trying to say here other than you're grumpy. You seem to be attacking the games you no longer want to play as 'childish' but then are backing off from saying that you're putting them down and switching to an argument about how people want to "deny" you the games you want.

Labyrinth:
Speaking from a female perspective, I'd say they're great draw-factors as well. More the violence than the sex but that may be down to my distaste for faux-women. Endlessly killing polygons in say, Unreal Tournament is as much a good time as it is a means for me to work out frustrations. And really, the "Male" image in games is often as stereotyped as the female, though often with more fabric involved. The intent may be different but in many ways the approach is similar. None the less games are an enjoyable medium to settle back and blow shit up. Of course there are games which don't reply on this. Puzzle games in particular spring to mind but even then there are things like Portal which are undeniably inventive yet still have that vein of destruction. Tasty destruction.. mmm.

In short it's a relaxation mechanism and I doubt that'll ever change. It's more profitable for developers this way.

Agreed, it fascinates me that one of my main tools for relaxation is to virtually slaughter other 'people'. The idea that this women has the right to judge a large portion of the 'educated' world disgusts me. I'd love to see you argue with her over her points, she also comes of to me (this is just my opinion from the connotations in her arguments) that she is a feminist who relies largely on the proverbial stereotypes of male gamers, as childish and poorly adjusted. This is of course if she accepts that there are female gamers at all.

Who exactly is her target audience anyway, fearmongering in soccer mums?

Cheeze_Pavilion:
1) Why do you think anyone is trying to "deny" you anything?

2) How is calling something "childish" in the manner you are here not saying there is something "wrong with that"?

I think it's more that people are arguing with you because in order to show the value in the games you want in the future, you are putting down the games in the present that bore you. Why can't you argue *for* the games you want without arguing *against* the games you don't?

Let's back up. Heather Chaplin says that developers need to grow up. Tom Endo writes this article and basically says that games are grown up. I and others feel that Tom missed the point and that video games lack maturity when dealing with sex and violence; it's not that sex and violence is immature. Others continue to defend the article by saying that they like things the way they are. Okay. Let's stop there.

Some of the points being made don't contradict each other. I want mature games, you like the current trend of adolescent games. That's fine, but then you replied to something I said questioning the validity of practically every point. How am I supposed to take that? (Don't answer that, it's rhetorical.) You said, "Maybe we're 100 percent okay with that." That being the way games are; the immature escapism that they embrace.

When you argue against me, you are saying that you don't want mature games to be made. If that wasn't you're intention, then you have a weird way of agreeing with me.

Cheeze_Pavilion:
You're not serious, are you? From _A Clockwork Orange_ bumping up against an X rating to the career of Lenny Bruce, the idea that 'adult=immoral' *has* set back artistic media again and again.

It's my belief that a lot of the greatness behind those examples (and countless others) is that they pushed the limits. It was the fact that limits existed which helped make them so unforgettable and powerful. Lenny Bruce was brilliant; good choice.

Cheeze_Pavilion:
Maybe we don't want to continue to give the fearmongers even more power than they have now by conforming, by allowing them to use another medium to advance the idea that 'adult=immoral' and 'safe for children=good'. Maybe we want to break the connection between something being inappropriate for children and something being morally questionable or obscene.

Again... so you're arguing that by allowing games to mature, this will allow adults to have a voice in the gaming medium and that will be a bad thing? Huh?

Cheeze_Pavilion:
You seem to be attacking the games you no longer want to play as 'childish' but then are backing off from saying that you're putting them down and switching to an argument about how people want to "deny" you the games you want.

I called the current trend in gaming childish because it is. This is not attacking video games; this is describing where they are on a level of maturity compared to what other mediums offer.

But hey, like I said, I'm not against what's out there; it's just that there is hardly any mature alternative. To be honest, I don't know what you're arguing against. I thought it was against what I've said above, but now I think you're arguing for argument's sake. If it makes you feel better: you win, Cheese.

Echolocating:

Cheeze_Pavilion:
You said, "Maybe we're 100 percent okay with that." That being the way games are; the immature escapism that they embrace.

When you argue against me, you are saying that you don't want mature games to be made. If that wasn't you're intention, then you have a weird way of agreeing with me.

First of all, I'm not saying that in any way--I don't know where you're getting that from. Second, why do you keep calling some games 'mature' and others 'immature'? Maybe you're just picking your words badly, but there's a pretty heavy value judgment in setting up the spectrum like that.

The way you talk about games strikes me the same as that introduction from Prichard(sp?) to the poetry textbooks from _Dead Poets Society_.

Again... so you're arguing that by allowing games to mature, this will allow adults to have a voice in the gaming medium and that will be a bad thing? Huh?

No, allowing *closeminded* adults a voice in the gaming medium will be a bad thing. Allowing adults that only see value in a game if it's 'educational' or 'artistic' and won't admit any value in a game that is just 'fun' would be a *terrible* thing.

I called the current trend in gaming childish because it is. This is not attacking video games; this is describing where they are on a level of maturity compared to what other mediums offer.

Calling something "childish" is an attack. Maybe you're just making bad word choices, but when you call something childish--especially when you contrast it with something that is mature--that's an attack.

Cheeze_Pavilion:
...allowing *closeminded* adults a voice in the gaming medium will be a bad thing. Allowing adults that only see value in a game if it's 'educational' or 'artistic' and won't admit any value in a game that is just 'fun' would be a *terrible* thing.

That's an incredibly paranoid and narrow-minded view. I'm also bothered by your hypocritical statements that you see no problem with having mature games being made, but you don't want games to attract mature minded people who don't value "fun" above all else. Fun is not exclusive to enjoyment in an adult world.

Cheeze_Pavilion:
Calling something "childish" is an attack. Maybe you're just making bad word choices, but when you call something childish--especially when you contrast it with something that is mature--that's an attack.

How about youthful then? It doesn't change my point at all. If calling the majority of games childish actually offends you though, think for a moment why that is.

Echolocating:

Cheeze_Pavilion:
...allowing *closeminded* adults a voice in the gaming medium will be a bad thing. Allowing adults that only see value in a game if it's 'educational' or 'artistic' and won't admit any value in a game that is just 'fun' would be a *terrible* thing.

That's an incredibly paranoid and narrow-minded view.

Is that a round-about way of saying you disagree?

I'm also bothered by your hypocritical statements that you see no problem with having mature games being made, but you don't want games to attract mature minded people who don't value "fun" above all else.

I never said that. I said: "Allowing adults that only see value in a game if it's 'educational' or 'artistic' and won't admit any value in a game that is just 'fun'." I didn't say anyone has to value 'fun' "above all else" just that I don't want people who can't see the value in a game this is only "fun" attracted to games.

Cheeze_Pavilion:
Calling something "childish" is an attack. Maybe you're just making bad word choices, but when you call something childish--especially when you contrast it with something that is mature--that's an attack.

How about youthful then? It doesn't change my point at all. If calling the majority of games childish actually offends you though, think for a moment why that is.

*moment passes*

Because it implies that something that can be enjoyed by children cannot be of as much value as something that requires an adult sensibility. I think that's ridiculous.

Why can't the opposite of 'adult' be 'general'? Or 'appropriate for all ages'? Sure there are *some* things that can only be enjoyed by children, like nursery rhyme songs. And some music requires an adult sensibility to enjoy.

However, that's leaving out an essential category, music that can be enjoyed by everyone. That's why what you said "offends" me in your words--not mine. It's an intellectually unsophisticated approach to the subject.

Cheeze_Pavilion:
I never said that. I said: "Allowing adults that only see value in a game if it's 'educational' or 'artistic' and won't admit any value in a game that is just 'fun'."

Whatever. So you only want adults who value fun to play video games. The point still stands. Again, fun is not exclusive to enjoyment.

Echolocating:
How about youthful then? It doesn't change my point at all. If calling the majority of games childish actually offends you though, think for a moment why that is.

Because it implies that something that can be enjoyed by children cannot be of as much value as something that requires an adult sensibility. I think that's ridiculous.

You're arguing about semantics and political correctness here. This has nothing to do with my stance on the issue which is what I thought we were discussing.

It's an intellectually unsophisticated approach to the subject.

Is that a round-about way of saying that you have no issue with the crux of anything I've said, just with the way I've implied it? If so, can we move on and further discuss issues with actual substance?

Echolocating:

Cheeze_Pavilion:
I never said that. I said: "Allowing adults that only see value in a game if it's 'educational' or 'artistic' and won't admit any value in a game that is just 'fun'."

Whatever. So you only want adults who value fun to play video games.

I basically only want people who see the value in fun as an end in itself involved in just about anything to do with me.

Again, fun is not exclusive to enjoyment.

I'm not exactly sure what you mean here.

Echolocating:
How about youthful then? It doesn't change my point at all. If calling the majority of games childish actually offends you though, think for a moment why that is.

Because it implies that something that can be enjoyed by children cannot be of as much value as something that requires an adult sensibility. I think that's ridiculous.

...

It's an intellectually unsophisticated approach to the subject.

You're arguing about semantics and political correctness here. This has nothing to do with my stance on the issue which is what I thought we were discussing.

...

Is that a round-about way of saying that you have no issue with the crux of anything I've said, just with the way I've implied it? If so, can we move on and further discuss issues with actual substance?

I think what you imply is the crux of what you are saying. It's my way of saying I think I've found the deeper issue, the reason you believe what you believe and making the point that the reason you disagree with people on this issue stems from the disagreements you have with them on a more fundamental level.

In other words, it's not semantics at all: it has everything to do with your stance on the issue in terms of it being the reason you have that stance, and the way in which other people differ explaining why they have a different stance.

Cheeze_Pavilion:
I basically only want people who see the value in fun as an end in itself involved in just about anything to do with me.

Echolocating:
Again, fun is not exclusive to enjoyment.

I'm not exactly sure what you mean here.

I mean, not all forms of entertainment need to be fun in order to be enjoyable.

Cheeze_Pavilion:
I think what you imply is the crux of what you are saying. It's my way of saying I think I've found the deeper issue, the reason you believe what you believe and making the point that the reason you disagree with people on this issue stems from the disagreements you have with them on a more fundamental level.

In other words, it's not semantics at all: it has everything to do with your stance on the issue in terms of it being the reason you have that stance, and the way in which other people differ explaining why they have a different stance.

Cheese, are you on drugs? If you want to shift the debate to how I present my concerns instead of what my concerns are, I don't want to play that game. You're showing all the classic signs of someone whose trying to win a debate, instead of making a sound argument.

I want the video game industry to offer more sophisticated and mature content, but apparently it's more important to argue about why I'm so grumpy and how my negativity nullifies any point I'm trying to make. I don't get it and I don't think anyone else does either.

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