Zero Punctuation: Detroit: Become Human

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Aiddon:
Definitely doesn't help that Cage is now under investigation by Parisian authorities for creating a hostile work environment full of racism and sexual harassment. Would definitely make his commentaries in Become Human ring hollow.

At this point there's really not a whole lot more that can be said about Cage. He's a horrible writer who doesn't understand the inherent strengths of film or gaming so he can't tell a story worth a damn. The only reason he gained a reputation was because he was doing story-focused games at a time when the industry was being very, VERY insecure about itself, basically even saying that all narrative games until then were always bad. Quite disrespectful looking back to those awkward days (see also: Ninja Theory).

Samtemdo8:

Silentpony:

Samtemdo8:

Apperently David Cage and his studio filed a lawsuit against the Media outlet that reported on that negative coverage:

https://www.pcgamer.com/david-cages-quantic-dream-sues-french-media-outlets-over-negative-coverage/

Don't know if that proves he's guilty or not.

Given this age's politically volatile climate, I don't think a lawsuit says it one way or the other. Just an accusation is enough to destroy a career with no chance of recovering, so I can understand being pro-active in a case like that. However I agree that all things being equal it looks guilty to sue a media outlet to shutdown a story. Then again media outlets can be corrupt too, so who knows...

And that's what makes it complex to me.

Either he is suing them to cover up that he is guilty, or someone or someones in the media outlet that reported on this is lying because this someone has a personal grudge against Cage.

Jim Sterling actually talked to some employees at Quantic Dream and they said the accusations against Cage were overblown and that the person who accused them of wrongdoing was himself fired for stealing company documents.

erttheking:

ToastyMozart:

It's more a coked-out ramble than a fully coherent plan, but yeah that was indeed an actual scene. It's what prompts Kara to break her restriction wall dealie because at that point following her orders to "not go anywhere" would violate Asimov's first or whatever.

The scene in question: https://youtu.be/BQ4Rx48HWoU?t=22m14s (As attended by a trio of much more entertaining characters than David could write.)

*Watches scene* Jesus fucking Christ. Yup, that's some pretty shallow writing right there. Some people say this game had a serious look at domestic abuse *shakes head* why I will never know.

Burnouts3s3:
I enjoyed this interactive movie from David Cage, but Yahtzee is absolutely correct in his assessment in Cage's writing. It's still really amateur and doesn't work all the way through. I felt that the Deviant Hunter, Connor and Clancy Brown's character, Hank, had the best story in the game and their dynamic worked like gangbusters. But Markus' story, where he's this Android Messiah who's going to be a Civil Rights leader, falls completely flat.

One of the things I liked was the 'fail states are not game overs' mechanic Cage brought over from Heavy Rain. So if a certain character dies, the game goes on without them which I thought was pretty smart.

erttheking:

Like I said, I enjoyed the game but it's flawed as all hell.

...That's pretty dumb writing there Cage, not gonna lie. Just when I think Jim Sterling is being a little unfair with the "emotions" thing, Cage goes and proves him right.

Apothecary2:

erttheking:
Wait, did the abusive dad really fucking talk about how much he was going to enjoy beating his daughter? Is that an actual scene or Yahtzee being hyperbolic? Because if so, I seriously have to question how people can view that as a shocking look at domestic abuse.

Also

So I'll just throw something out there, anyone who's interested in a robot focused game where inequality and lost jobs caused by automation is actually a theme (granted not the only theme) play Subsurface Circular. It's by the guy who made Thomas Was Alone, and while it's a short game that's mainly about a robot cop having talks on the subway, it's a thousand times more interesting than anything David Cage ever made.

Plus it's only six bucks.

Judging by how the game apparently doesn't address the mass unemployment the androids cause, I'm guessing the low price tag is used less to world build a reality where automation has become stupidly cheap and the implications of it and more to create a world where a crack dealer in a run down house could afford a robot maid.

I thought it was well written myself. I've seen real life footage of abuse that looked quite similar.

erttheking:

ToastyMozart:

It's more a coked-out ramble than a fully coherent plan, but yeah that was indeed an actual scene. It's what prompts Kara to break her restriction wall dealie because at that point following her orders to "not go anywhere" would violate Asimov's first or whatever.

The scene in question: https://youtu.be/BQ4Rx48HWoU?t=22m14s (As attended by a trio of much more entertaining characters than David could write.)

*Watches scene* Jesus fucking Christ. Yup, that's some pretty shallow writing right there. Some people say this game had a serious look at domestic abuse *shakes head* why I will never know.

Burnouts3s3:
I enjoyed this interactive movie from David Cage, but Yahtzee is absolutely correct in his assessment in Cage's writing. It's still really amateur and doesn't work all the way through. I felt that the Deviant Hunter, Connor and Clancy Brown's character, Hank, had the best story in the game and their dynamic worked like gangbusters. But Markus' story, where he's this Android Messiah who's going to be a Civil Rights leader, falls completely flat.

One of the things I liked was the 'fail states are not game overs' mechanic Cage brought over from Heavy Rain. So if a certain character dies, the game goes on without them which I thought was pretty smart.

erttheking:

Like I said, I enjoyed the game but it's flawed as all hell.

...That's pretty dumb writing there Cage, not gonna lie. Just when I think Jim Sterling is being a little unfair with the "emotions" thing, Cage goes and proves him right.

Apothecary2:

erttheking:
Wait, did the abusive dad really fucking talk about how much he was going to enjoy beating his daughter? Is that an actual scene or Yahtzee being hyperbolic? Because if so, I seriously have to question how people can view that as a shocking look at domestic abuse.

Also

So I'll just throw something out there, anyone who's interested in a robot focused game where inequality and lost jobs caused by automation is actually a theme (granted not the only theme) play Subsurface Circular. It's by the guy who made Thomas Was Alone, and while it's a short game that's mainly about a robot cop having talks on the subway, it's a thousand times more interesting than anything David Cage ever made.

Plus it's only six bucks.

Judging by how the game apparently doesn't address the mass unemployment the androids cause, I'm guessing the low price tag is used less to world build a reality where automation has become stupidly cheap and the implications of it and more to create a world where a crack dealer in a run down house could afford a robot maid.

I thought it was well written myself. I've seen real life footage of abuse that looked quite similar.

Aiddon:
Definitely doesn't help that Cage is now under investigation by Parisian authorities for creating a hostile work environment full of racism and sexual harassment. Would definitely make his commentaries in Become Human ring hollow.

At this point there's really not a whole lot more that can be said about Cage. He's a horrible writer who doesn't understand the inherent strengths of film or gaming so he can't tell a story worth a damn. The only reason he gained a reputation was because he was doing story-focused games at a time when the industry was being very, VERY insecure about itself, basically even saying that all narrative games until then were always bad. Quite disrespectful looking back to those awkward days (see also: Ninja Theory).

Not really, Jim Sterling talked to some employees who said the allegations were mostly nonsense.

darkrage6:
snip

It would be better for us all, if you learned to post properly. Don't multipost for no reason other than impatience, and do try to quote only the relevant parts of other people's comments or "snip" them like I'm doing here.

darkrage6:
Snip

Funny you mention Jim Sterling, he wrote an article on how it's an utter farce. And he grew up in an abusive home.

http://www.thejimquisition.com/detroits-domestic-abuse-trailer-is-a-hackneyed-farce/

Once again Yahtzee scoffs are a game that tries to say something about racism, seeming to ignore the fact that it is still a huge problem in our soceity.

Buccura:
Once again Yahtzee scoffs are a game that tries to say something about racism, seeming to ignore the fact that it is still a huge problem in our soceity.

Good intentions don't necessarily make for good storytelling.

Johnny Novgorod:

Buccura:
Once again Yahtzee scoffs are a game that tries to say something about racism, seeming to ignore the fact that it is still a huge problem in our soceity.

Good intentions don't necessarily make for good storytelling.

I'm not trying to say the story is good. It's a David Cage game, after all.

While i agree with the criticisms to the writing, i never really understood the 'Interactive movies' criticism for any of his games except Beyond which is extremely linear and railroady. However Farenheit, Heavy Rain and Detroit largely follow an Adventure game structure, just with flashier aesthetics

Buccura:
Once again Yahtzee scoffs are a game that tries to say something about racism, seeming to ignore the fact that it is still a huge problem in our soceity.

Tries is the big word here, right? Does anyone know what the game says about racism? I don't. Trying to say something while failing to say anything surely is something to scoff at.

erttheking:

darkrage6:
Snip

Funny you mention Jim Sterling, he wrote an article on how it's an utter farce. And he grew up in an abusive home.

http://www.thejimquisition.com/detroits-domestic-abuse-trailer-is-a-hackneyed-farce/

Yeah, Cage really doesn't get how a domestic abuse situation works. Or human interaction in general. I laughed my ass off when he claimed people should judge him by his work when those abuse allegations came out. Okay, Davey, judging by your work you're a sexist, racist manchild who shouldn't be allowed near any heavy machinery. At the end of the day the man is a joke

McElroy:

Buccura:
Once again Yahtzee scoffs are a game that tries to say something about racism, seeming to ignore the fact that it is still a huge problem in our soceity.

Tries is the big word here, right? Does anyone know what the game says about racism? I don't. Trying to say something while failing to say anything surely is something to scoff at.

It's not that he scoffed at how it failed to say something about racism, again I hardly expect David Cage to give something insightful. It's that he scoffed at the very idea of it, just like how he scoffed at the idea of Deus Ex Mankind Divided having a racism analogue before even going into whether or not it did it well.

Buccura:
It's not that he scoffed at how it failed to say something about racism, again I hardly expect David Cage to give something insightful. It's that he scoffed at the very idea of it, just like how he scoffed at the idea of Deus Ex Mankind Divided having a racism analogue before even going into whether or not it did it well.

They're both poor attempts in any way you look at it, though Detroit far more hackneyed and shallow. They're both also cowardly with the theme as they refuse to ever acknowledge real-life racism and instead prefer to use a fantasised version where much more whities can be visibly empathised with, for it is nought but a window-dressing as a hope that their own story looks deeper. What questions were ever asked or explored? Where, who and how is this type of racism accepted and encouraged by parts of humanity? What various problems and psychologies are perpetuating this? What else other than "hey...racism bad, amirite?" Except with Deus Ex it still makes far more sense here.

I eagerly await the day there is more thought and respect put into "racism analogy" for this medium, but the examples you worked from are not flattering for this.

Canadamus Prime:
You really do get the impression that David Cage would much rather be making films.

EDIT: Besides hasn't the concept of humanity, AI, and androids been explored much better in other mediums? Things like Blade Runner, Bicentennial Man, AI: Artificial Intelligence, Star Trek: The Next Generation...

It's arguably been explored better in other Video Games. Off the top of my head:

-Deus Ex(the first one particularly but HR wasn't terrible either).
-Nier: Automata
-Final Fantasy IX

I'm sure there a ton more that I'm spacing at the moment.

Dalisclock:

Canadamus Prime:
You really do get the impression that David Cage would much rather be making films.

EDIT: Besides hasn't the concept of humanity, AI, and androids been explored much better in other mediums? Things like Blade Runner, Bicentennial Man, AI: Artificial Intelligence, Star Trek: The Next Generation...

It's arguably been explored better in other Video Games. Off the top of my head:

-Deus Ex(the first one particularly but HR wasn't terrible either).
-Nier: Automata
-Final Fantasy IX

I'm sure there a ton more that I'm spacing at the moment.

Wasn't it also a subplot in Fallout 4? I haven't played it, but I seem to recall picking that up somewhere.

Canadamus Prime:

Dalisclock:

Canadamus Prime:
You really do get the impression that David Cage would much rather be making films.

EDIT: Besides hasn't the concept of humanity, AI, and androids been explored much better in other mediums? Things like Blade Runner, Bicentennial Man, AI: Artificial Intelligence, Star Trek: The Next Generation...

It's arguably been explored better in other Video Games. Off the top of my head:

-Deus Ex(the first one particularly but HR wasn't terrible either).
-Nier: Automata
-Final Fantasy IX

I'm sure there a ton more that I'm spacing at the moment.

Wasn't it also a subplot in Fallout 4? I haven't played it, but I seem to recall picking that up somewhere.

I've heard it is but I haven't played it yet either. Waiting for the complete/GOTW edition to drop to like $30 before buying it, because I'm tired of buying the base Bethesda game and then having to rebuy it again with all the expansions 3-4 years later. I decided "Fuck it, when the entire game is released, I'll buy it and judge it from there".

So I'm behind on RPG's right now that I haven't really noticed the wait either.

Dalisclock:

Canadamus Prime:

Dalisclock:

It's arguably been explored better in other Video Games. Off the top of my head:

-Deus Ex(the first one particularly but HR wasn't terrible either).
-Nier: Automata
-Final Fantasy IX

I'm sure there a ton more that I'm spacing at the moment.

Wasn't it also a subplot in Fallout 4? I haven't played it, but I seem to recall picking that up somewhere.

I've heard it is but I haven't played it yet either. Waiting for the complete/GOTW edition to drop to like $30 before buying it, because I'm tired of buying the base Bethesda game and then having to rebuy it again with all the expansions 3-4 years later. I decided "Fuck it, when the entire game is released, I'll buy it and judge it from there".

So I'm behind on RPG's right now that I haven't really noticed the wait either.

I have no interest in it since I found out that the over-simplified the dialogue system and thus removed most of the role-playing.
Apparently there's a mod that provides a more in-depth dialogue system, but I don't care enough.

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