Editor's Note: Good Griefing

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Good Griefing

Are griefers just a bunch of jerks on the internet, or is there something more to their online exploits?

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Despite their myriad reasons for doing what they do, griefers really just piss people off. To me, griefing is not really defined by the people doing it. It's defined from the people suffering from the griefer's antics. Perhaps you grief because you're trying to prove something to yourself. Perhaps you really are a corrupted soul who likes to gank people for no reason whatsoever. Regardless of their motivations, a griefer by definition causes grief. And that is why they can be classified as a group.

There is a server on Team Fortress 2 that actually caters to griefers. Almost every person who plays it is a griefer extraordinaire. For all the spawn-camping, all the verbal abuse over the mics, and all the innovative ways to break the game engine, it's definitely one of the most fun servers to play on- in a strangely cathartic way. What's the best way to deal with griefing problems? Watching a bunch of griefers at each other's throats.

Congratulations on making it to 200 articles!

Griefers are just people taking the game to a newer level of fun (for themselves). They are probably bored with the experience they are offered and decide to change the game to suit their personal tastes and if their jerks that involves ruining it for another person. We all probably Grief in our own little way, like playing as a Spy in a game TF2 even when your team has three other Spys and you know that you don't play a very good Spy but want to do it anyway. Griefing doesn't always have to be malicious, however it is a lot of the time, unfortunately. It is bad that people only find the game enjoying when they torment other players, it makes me wonder what sort of a person they are, but griefing isn't necessarily going out of your way to mess around with people, it is playing a game the way you want to play it.

The standard disclaimer trolls and griefers use - lol we are teaching you to not take yourself seriously - reminds me a bit of the old disclaimer we used to see on websites offering direct downloads of copyrighted MP3 files: "These files are intended to be used for demonstration purposes only and must be deleted after 24 hours." It sounds great, and is just the cute sort of excuse that a clever Internet guy would snigger at, but it doesn't really hold water.

Like those old MP3 sites, where a few people really did download the files to sample them, and always ran out to buy the CD the next day, once in a while griefers do sting someone who is entirely taking themselves too seriously and could use a dose of perspective. But in most cases, it comes down to taking pleasure by taking it away from other people - by frustrating them, showing (in your own mind at least) that you're more clever than them, etc. Even when griefers are merely bored and finding new ways to play the game, they still generally follow classic troll logic: win by losing. Everybody in a game or on a server hates the griefer - generally speaking - but most of the time, the griefer ends up just being dismissed as an asshole. He doesn't win many friends.

And that's okay by troll logic. The pleasure comes in making the other guy put out more effort to "get back at you" than you put in to pissing him off. Because the more effort someone puts into something, by the mindset of many people, the more seriously they're taking it. And people who spend all their time griefing on the Internet generally, in my experience, don't feel anything is worth taking seriously. They're very cynical when you come down to it, and quite a lot of them have proven to be a member of "generation f**k it". The Internet is the easiest and cheapest way to enjoy the most suffering the fastest, whether it's pure voyuerism - atrocity tourism - or active meddling in what other people are doing.

The funny part about the story involving the next door neighbor and her TV program is this: a griefer tried and true would laugh and say that anyone who complains that someone who complains about their personal enjoyment being spoiled by another is taking themselves too seriously. But by the same token, all the woman was trying to do was watch her TV show in peace - why exactly should she not be allowed to do that? The only real answer a griefer could give, if they were being honest, is this: my activity is always more important than your activity, because I'm the most important person in the world. At best, you are my caged animal, existing solely for me to poke with a pointy stick and delight in watching it squeal.

Griefer here.
The whole "internet is serious business" thing is just an excuse. We just love annoying people more than playing the actual game. To give you an idea; the most fun I've had playing Team Fortress 2 was when I managed to teleport half of my team behind a mesh fence, then got to stand in front of it making my engineer character laugh at them whilst the enemy team captured all of our points.

I don't understand anyone who doesn't think this sort of thing is hillarious.

Are you by any chance FLOOR_MASTER or Omghax?!

I sometimes grief depending on my mood, but not very often, and when it happens to me it does stir up some annoyance - but griefing in games like World of Warcraft is always about making people lighten up. I can't tell you how many times I jumped up and down infront of somebodys fishing bob making them unable to fish which is, in itself the most boring thing you could ever do in a computer game. But in games like Team Fortress 2 it's more to do with lack of interest for the real game, getting your team killed is easier than killing the enemy team, as it were.

SAccharing10:
I sometimes grief depending on my mood, but not very often, and when it happens to me it does stir up some annoyance - but griefing in games like World of Warcraft is always about making people lighten up. I can't tell you how many times I jumped up and down infront of somebodys fishing bob making them unable to fish which is, in itself the most boring thing you could ever do in a computer game. But in games like Team Fortress 2 it's more to do with lack of interest for the real game, getting your team killed is easier than killing the enemy team, as it were.

Ok, question: where's the harm in someone fishing, if they find it entertaining? Ok, you think it's boring, but they clearly don't, so why ruin their fun?

jdnoth:
Griefer here.
The whole "internet is serious business" thing is just an excuse. We just love annoying people more than playing the actual game. To give you an idea; the most fun I've had playing Team Fortress 2 was when I managed to teleport half of my team behind a mesh fence, then got to stand in front of it making my engineer character laugh at them whilst the enemy team captured all of our points.

I don't understand anyone who doesn't think this sort of thing is hillarious.

And a question for you: did anything in particular prompt you to do that to your team?

Enjoy Griefing more than playing the game? You may be able to join the Sociopath Gamers Society!

Here are a few relevant characteristics of people who may have antisocial personality disorder (APSD):

(from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisocial_personality_disorder )

-Apparent lack of remorse or empathy; inability to care about hurting others (Griefing)
-Impulsivity and/or recklessness
-Lack of realistic, long-term goals -- an inability or persistent failure to develop and execute long-term plans and goals
-Poor behavioral controls -- expressions of irritability, annoyance, impatience, threats, aggression, and verbal abuse; inadequate control of anger and temper
-Narcissism, elevated self-appraisal or a sense of extreme entitlement (Every Griefer I've seen)
-A persistent agitated or depressed feeling (dysphoria)
-A history of childhood conduct disorders
-Tendency to violate the boundaries and "rights" of others (Griefing)
-Substance abuse
-Aggressive, often violent behavior; prone to getting involved in fights
-Inability to tolerate boredom (Griefer anthem)
-People with a diagnosis of antisocial personality disorder often experience difficulties with authority figures.

Well, IMHO there are better, more enjoyable ways to live. Get counseling. It worked for me! ;)

Edit: from my experience Griefers tend to be younger guys. It's not unusual for adolescent guys to have more impulsive energy than brains or self-control, and when it's not obvious how to get positive attention they often will settle for negative attention. Most develop a sense of purpose for their lives and grow out of it. You'll find more greifing in games that have a mean average younger player age, I would guess. I play some MMO's that have older player bases and find very, very little of this. (Like two occasions in two years.)

I do it because it amuses me, do i need another reason other than that? sometimes i just want to be a dick on the internet, i just feel like blocking the door in COD5 zombies, i just feel like i want to drive a warhog near a clif and jump out at the last second sending my comrades to their doom. Why? because i can and why not? i find it funny its not complex their is no reasoning, no phychological problems with me, i just think its funny time to time, though usually i get bored after a while and play the game which is much funner when being serious.
its a matter of "Why the hell not?"

One conclusion I made in my years of playing MMORPGs is that griefers tended to be military-minded people. I decided this after having griefers as clanmates or guildmates, and by engaging grifers in game. More often than not, these people tended to be active military or former military.

Then again, perhaps military people have more time on their hands to play MMORPGS thereby making their presence in online games more prevalent than the "real world", or maybe the games I played (EVE specifically) drew a higher percentage of military-minded fans.

So what does this mean? I don't know - I'll leave it up to the sociologist to draw theories from more scientific observations than my informal surveys.

Nonetheless, I thought it was an interesting conclusion.

Pandalisk:
I do it because it amuses me, do i need another reason other than that? sometimes i just want to be a dick on the internet, i just feel like blocking the door in COD5 zombies, i just feel like i want to drive a warhog near a clif and jump out at the last second sending my comrades to their doom. Why? because i can and why not? i find it funny its not complex their is no reasoning, no phychological problems with me, i just think its funny time to time, though usually i get bored after a while and play the game which is much funner when being serious.
its a matter of "Why the hell not?"

Ok, all of that makes perfect sense, but let me ask you this: why is your fun more important than the guy you drive over the cliff? Why is it ok for you to enjoy yourself at other people's expense?

Their just a bunch of jerks on the internet.

Susan Arendt:

Pandalisk:
I do it because it amuses me, do i need another reason other than that? sometimes i just want to be a dick on the internet, i just feel like blocking the door in COD5 zombies, i just feel like i want to drive a warhog near a clif and jump out at the last second sending my comrades to their doom. Why? because i can and why not? i find it funny its not complex their is no reasoning, no phychological problems with me, i just think its funny time to time, though usually i get bored after a while and play the game which is much funner when being serious.
its a matter of "Why the hell not?"

Ok, all of that makes perfect sense, but let me ask you this: why is your fun more important than the guy you drive over the cliff? Why is it ok for you to enjoy yourself at other people's expense?

I never said it was, and i never said it was more important nor did i say it was okay, you are looking for a reasonable answer to a question that has no reasonable answer, their is no reasoning, People are dicks and thats as much a reasonable answer you are going to get or probably willing to accept.

People are different to one another, they have different senses of humour, some are serious some arnt ectera ectera, some people do these things with friends so its a joke shared by them but not by you. Some are alone and do these things because they find it funny as will others on the server that find it funny, its like a joke you hear someone say where some people laugh while the others dont find it funny and thus you have people complaining about the joke while others swarm in and claim they are way to up tight ectera and it goes on and on. In the end its up to an individual persons personality.

Pandalisk:

Susan Arendt:

Pandalisk:
I do it because it amuses me, do i need another reason other than that? sometimes i just want to be a dick on the internet, i just feel like blocking the door in COD5 zombies, i just feel like i want to drive a warhog near a clif and jump out at the last second sending my comrades to their doom. Why? because i can and why not? i find it funny its not complex their is no reasoning, no phychological problems with me, i just think its funny time to time, though usually i get bored after a while and play the game which is much funner when being serious.
its a matter of "Why the hell not?"

Ok, all of that makes perfect sense, but let me ask you this: why is your fun more important than the guy you drive over the cliff? Why is it ok for you to enjoy yourself at other people's expense?

I never said it was, and i never said it was more important nor did i say it was okay, you are looking for a reasonable answer to a question that has no reasonable answer, their is no reasoning, People are dicks and thats as much a reasonable answer you are going to get or probably willing to accept.

People are different to one another, they have different senses of humour, some are serious some arnt ectera ectera, some people do these things with friends so its a joke shared by them but not by you. Some are alone and do these things because they find it funny as will others on the server that find it funny, its like a joke you hear someone say where some people laugh while the others dont find it funny and thus you have people complaining about the joke while others swarm in and claim they are way to up tight ectera and it goes on and on. In the end its up to an individual persons personality.

Ok, perhaps I misunderstood something. When you drive your Warthog off a cliff, for example, do the guys who die chuckle and laugh it off, or are they pissed?

Susan Arendt:

Pandalisk:

Susan Arendt:

Pandalisk:
I do it because it amuses me, do i need another reason other than that? sometimes i just want to be a dick on the internet, i just feel like blocking the door in COD5 zombies, i just feel like i want to drive a warhog near a clif and jump out at the last second sending my comrades to their doom. Why? because i can and why not? i find it funny its not complex their is no reasoning, no phychological problems with me, i just think its funny time to time, though usually i get bored after a while and play the game which is much funner when being serious.
its a matter of "Why the hell not?"

Ok, all of that makes perfect sense, but let me ask you this: why is your fun more important than the guy you drive over the cliff? Why is it ok for you to enjoy yourself at other people's expense?

I never said it was, and i never said it was more important nor did i say it was okay, you are looking for a reasonable answer to a question that has no reasonable answer, their is no reasoning, People are dicks and thats as much a reasonable answer you are going to get or probably willing to accept.

People are different to one another, they have different senses of humour, some are serious some arnt ectera ectera, some people do these things with friends so its a joke shared by them but not by you. Some are alone and do these things because they find it funny as will others on the server that find it funny, its like a joke you hear someone say where some people laugh while the others dont find it funny and thus you have people complaining about the joke while others swarm in and claim they are way to up tight ectera and it goes on and on. In the end its up to an individual persons personality.

Ok, perhaps I misunderstood something. When you drive your Warthog off a cliff, for example, do the guys who die chuckle and laugh it off, or are they pissed?

That depends on the person(s), friends or otherwise.

different people re-act differently, Some of my friends get really pissed and exact their revenge upon me in humorous vengeance, others laugh their heads off. while people (i do not know) watching laugh their heads off or shake their heads in disgust, It depends on the person.

Say our team is losing and i do drive my team of a cliff, i will generally get bad remarks about it, But if our team is winning the majority find it funny, I find that Individual personality and The progression of the game we are in are major factors in the re-action of follow gamers, Most opposition players find it very amusing while the more hardcore find it annoying, though i expect that from the hardcore.

Griefing is for people who wants a massive attention span because they are bored in real life and games.

There are times and places for common dickery, but not greifing imo. And I think there is a differance between casually causing mischief (like the warthog thing mentioned above, I can't say I have been above similar incidents in similar games) for poops and giggles, and actually being labelled a griefer. I would say its an attitude thing, as well as the frequency such incidents are carried out. To reuse the above example, if it is done once every now and then, but you are clearly goofing around, no real drama, respawn and get on with it. If its your main way of using your play time, or it's clear your intentions arn't just for aforementioned poops and/or giggles, yahar, thar be a greifer.

Humans are, in many ways, sadistic creatures. Not all of us, but many of us have a mean streak, whether we admit it or not. Whether we act on it is another story.

The internet's level of anonymity makes this type of behavior more prevalent. And any pretense about "teaching people a lesson" is just denial and displays a need for social acceptance even when doing something others may find unacceptable (it's ironic, but it makes sense).

At the end of day, as Pandalisk has demonstrated - they do it mostly because it's fun to them, it amuses them, and satisfies some part of their being. School bullies are similar, do they really need a reason to do it?

It's simple economics - video game griefing has low cost and allows you to obtain a reward you may not otherwise be able to obtain in real life (legality or safety issues).

Regardless of what anyone says, there is ALWAYS a reason someone performs an action. "Because I feel like it," is a reason. There are psychological problems with some people, some of those people play video games, but to try to label griefers as a massive group of people with something horribly wrong with them is just plain crazy in its own right.

I'm gonna open up a can of long winded typing now, so for those who don't like words, you can just skip down below to someone else. First of all, true griefing is not cool in my opinion. If you drive your teammates off a cliff once, that's fine with me. Sometimes the randomosity is welcomed amidst the same old find kill tactics your team will be employing the whole round. However, if your purpose is to constantly kill your team, to either make sure they lose, or to make sure they don't enjoy the game themselves, that's pure griefing, and it's wrong to do, whether you believe it is or not.

That being said, a lot of people who play games put themselves into this weird state of mind where they think they MUST win, or achieve some contrived goal, and if they don't they flip out like you wouldn't believe. These people really do need to lighten up. Some games are competetive. I grant that, no problem. But when you allow the goal of winning to take over the FUN aspect of the game, you're taking it too seriously. Games are supposed to be fun, just by playing them. If you don't enjoy PLAYING a game, you're missing the point of a GAME.

There isn't a single person out there who can simply pass judgement on someone else. If you believe someone is taking the game too seriously, it isn't your right to make them stop. Just ignore them, and let them game in their own little world. If I'm griefed, I simply ignore it. Someone called me a 1000 pound biatch loser with no life today, because I said something on world chat in the MMO I'm currently playing, and they didn't like what I said. I just let it go, it's the best thing you can do.

No one should try to take your fun out of the game, but in the same sense, you are the one who lets them take it. If they are messing with you, and they don't get a reaction, they aren't going to keep doing it. They WANT you to get mad, that's their fun. If you ignore them, they'll move on to someone else. If you feel you need to take further measures, report them. Dropping to their level isn't going to help, and it's not your job to "keep the peace" either, most companies have paid representitives who are paid to pretend to do that. *cough* Blizzard *cough*

As for hacking, or things that can't be ignored that limit your ability to play, report them, and move to a different area/play a different map/the equivalent to walking away and going somewhere else. If all else fails, walk away from the game, take a deep breath, come back in ten minutes, and see if it's still happening. After all, it's just a game, and it's not worth your mental or physical health.

-Froggyman

Anyone remember Playing to Win? Of course you do; you've probably read it more than once, maybe read a couple of the follow-up articles. One of Sirlin's big points in that article is that by imposing arbitrary rules on a game, you create for yourself a different game which bears little resemblance to the "real game" played by the "real players". Only when you adapt to this can you consider yourself a "winner" in the game.

In any game with other human players, the "real game" includes responding to any actions that the other human players can take within the boundaries of the game. Some of these actions are, from your perspective, undesirable. A player who intentionally acts in a way that you feel is undesirable is called a griefer. This isn't just true for video games: remember Charlie Brown trying to kick the football, only to have the griefer Lucy pull it out of the way of his foot and cause him to sprawl to the ground.

In an online game, there are wide varieties of actions that opposing players can take that are undesirable to you. If you are a bad player, then just playing a skilled opponent is undesirable, since you can't really win. If you're fishing in WoW, then having someone run around near you is an undesirable action. If you're just standing around town, then having someone kite a raid boss into the town square is an undesirable action. If you're playing a match with certain objectives, someone doing something as simple as "not trying to fulfill the objectives" is undesirable, especially if that person is taking up a slot on your team. So there are a wide variety of ways to grief people.

The reason I bring up Playing to Win is that when you play WoW, you're playing the whole game, whether you like it or not. The whole game of WoW includes getting into unfair world PvP fights. It includes people standing on your bobber while you're fishing. It includes the occasional person who manages to spark a flamewar in one of the chat channels. From the griefer's perspective, the game really is about social engineering as much as it is collecting shiny new bits on a server somewhere, and when you snap and go on an expletive-laced tirade against them, that's winning the game as much as killing the raid boss is winning the game for you.

Why do they do it? Quite simply, because they know you hate it. All you want to do is kill the dragon, or become a highly rated PvPer. That's no more the "real game" of WoW than NR20 games are the "real game" of Starcraft, or "no items, Final Destination" is the "real game" of Super Smash Bros., or any of the other arbitrary rules that Sirlin's article talks about. The griefer's game is about manipulating people, and the easiest people to manipulate are the ones that are too focused on their own corner of the game to see you coming.

Now, as online games have these things called "patches", Blizzard maintains some ability to monitor their game and modify it if they agree that the griefers' actions are undesirable. But used too liberally, unintended consequences result. The standard WoW example of this is the sad state of capital city raids, which were effectively killed off by the addition of dishonorable kills, and which never recovered even after DKs were removed ~18 months later. Yes, DKs solved the problem of low-level players showing up at the Crossroads and finding all the questgivers dead and 20 Alliance players dancing on their corpses, but they also removed an element from the game entirely which might have been fun in its own right.

Oh, and a token shameless plug.

For me, griefing is just another term for "breaking the game". If I can do something that no one, not even the game developers, can predict, such as team-killing, you bet your ass I will do it.

Think of it liking owning a vase that, when smashed, can be instantly reformed with a few keystrokes. Would you break it?

Hell yes you would. We all enjoy breaking things. The only reason we repress this reckless tendency is because of the consequences such as: pissing off the owner, having to pay for it, or at the least cleaning up your mess. If the consequences become non-existent or insignificant, such as in a videogame, then let's just say you will see of broken vases.

Nope, griefing is simply bad. People need to stop being jerks and stop doing it. If you are so bored by playing games that you have to resort to bullying and pranks to get your rocks off, stop gaming and start a new hobby. Like clay sculpting or something.

I look at it this way: if all you're doing is irritating me and being a dick (teamkilling in COD4, for example) then piss off, you're being a dick. Any twelve year old can knife me in the back at the start of a match. But if you can get me angry, if you can put some effort into your griefing (ever seen the Team Roomba videos?) and make me want to destroy you, then I will curse you, I will swear at you, and when I turn off my Xbox, I will smile, because you gave me an actual tangible villain to fight instead of "Some random guy named xXsgjdhjdXx on Xbox"

Pandalisk:
I do it because it amuses me, do i need another reason other than that? sometimes i just want to be a dick on the internet, i just feel like blocking the door in COD5 zombies, i just feel like i want to drive a warhog near a clif and jump out at the last second sending my comrades to their doom. Why? because i can and why not? i find it funny its not complex their is no reasoning, no phychological problems with me, i just think its funny time to time, though usually i get bored after a while and play the game which is much funner when being serious.
its a matter of "Why the hell not?"

Wow this guy is an old style bully trapped in a nerds body... You basicly enjoy being a dick. On the why the hell not front: BECAUSE YOUR RUINING IT FOR OTHERS. Are you mentally disabled? Can you not see that even if you enjoy something it might not be the right thing to do?. Go play a sandbox game to indulge in that - the sandbox environments caters to all your gamebreaking needs and doesnt impose on others.

Johnmw:

Pandalisk:
I do it because it amuses me, do i need another reason other than that? sometimes i just want to be a dick on the internet, i just feel like blocking the door in COD5 zombies, i just feel like i want to drive a warhog near a clif and jump out at the last second sending my comrades to their doom. Why? because i can and why not? i find it funny its not complex their is no reasoning, no phychological problems with me, i just think its funny time to time, though usually i get bored after a while and play the game which is much funner when being serious.
its a matter of "Why the hell not?"

Wow this guy is an old style bully trapped in a nerds body... You basicly enjoy being a dick. On the why the hell not front: BECAUSE YOUR RUINING IT FOR OTHERS. Are you mentally disabled? Can you not see that even if you enjoy something it might not be the right thing to do?. Go play a sandbox game to indulge in that - the sandbox environments caters to all your game breaking needs and doesnt impose on others.

A nerds body? hardly anyway, Nonsense idiot, i didn't say i do it all the time, i do it sometimes when I'm bored, when i want to spice it up a bit, NOTHING IN RULES SAY I CANT DO IT and NOTHING IS STOPPING YOU FROM LEAVING THE SERVERS, I dont even over do it, once is my maximum and i do it rarely, have you never done anything wrong in a game? if you have then YOU good sir are mentally disabled because i can guarantee every single person in this forum has done something like this or anything else in this category in some shape or form, IT DOES NOT RUIN YOUR GAME FOREVER, a mere 10 seconds of your time

Can you not see that telling me what is the right thing to do in a video game IS UTTERLY FLAWED?

And i love sandbox games but some things they cannot provide, unless their are mods, you make it out like I've made it my mission to strike out at you Gamers, hardly.

You make it out like your view on it is the FUCKING ULTIMATUM! that's pretty arrogant of you, it depends on the people who are playing, their personalities, in the end it is a game, you do not need to take any aspect of it serious although it is fun to in most occasions

Pandalisk:
Can you not see that telling me what is the right thing to do in a video game IS UTTERLY FLAWED?

If that's your position, and not just a fig-leaf to cower behind, then I'd like to point out that you are a hypocrite. If others can't dictate to you how to play, then why do you have the power to force them to play your way?

At least the other guys can point to the rules (or maybe even the Terms of Use and Notices) to explain why they're playing in that style. But griefers can't do that, and their certainly not doing it with the concent of the other players; if they were, it wouldn't be griefing and people wouldn't be complaining.

If you want to do something oddball and weird, go start your own server and gather your own friends together on it. If you can't do that, then you could ask others if they want to play your style, or at the very least stop when they ask you to.

Because otherwise you're not a cure for anything, you're a symptom of a narcisistic society that frankly has no right to be telling others how to live and play.

-- Steve

Anton P. Nym:

Pandalisk:
Can you not see that telling me what is the right thing to do in a video game IS UTTERLY FLAWED?

If that's your position, and not just a fig-leaf to cower behind, then I'd like to point out that you are a hypocrite. If others can't dictate to you how to play, then why do you have the power to force them to play your way?

At least the other guys can point to the rules (or maybe even the Terms of Use and Notices) to explain why they're playing in that style. But griefers can't do that, and their certainly not doing it with the concent of the other players; if they were, it wouldn't be griefing and people wouldn't be complaining.

If you want to do something oddball and weird, go start your own server and gather your own friends together on it. If you can't do that, then you could ask others if they want to play your style, or at the very least stop when they ask you to.

Because otherwise you're not a cure for anything, you're a symptom of a narcisistic society that frankly has no right to be telling others how to live and play.

-- Steve

That is what i do, this thread is about why they do these things, and i think i've pointed it out cleary those reasons in earlier posts.

Anton P. Nym:
At least the other guys can point to the rules (or maybe even the Terms of Use and Notices) to explain why they're playing in that style. But griefers can't do that, and their certainly not doing it with the concent of the other players; if they were, it wouldn't be griefing and people wouldn't be complaining.

That's sort of the problem: not all griefing is against the rules. It's not against the rules for me to go have a dance party in the middle of the battleground instead of fighting the opposing faction, but you may feel that I am griefing you by depriving you of a player who is actually doing something productive.

Even if there are generic rules against making other players miserable, there's no guarantee of enforcement, and if the enforcement is just a WoW GM telling you to knock it off, that's just going to cause the griefers to find a new tactic. Which, honestly, is half the fun.

Good call.

I blame griefing on the people who play. There are certain strategies that must be employed with online >team based< games. Running and gunning solo is not one of them. A lot of the times, you are trying to do something, e.g. baiting a mech into a trap in Battlefield 2142, and right before you succeed one of your dumbass teammates gives away your position. GGGGGG-GGGGGG-GGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG. Dust. You're now a corpse. That teammate somehow flees the scene unscathed. God damn teammates.

Certain game mechanics demand certain behaviors and people are too damned stupid outside of clans/guilds/etc to implement them properly. This is why I grief. If no one wants to play a team game as a team I am damned set on either disrupting the strategies of either the enemy team or my team by any means necessary. Depends on how bad my team is really. If my team is team retard (you know, teammates running the opposite direction of the objective, unable to identify friend from foe, constantly jumping in front of your shot and bitching about you shooting them), I'll probably grief my team, although generally focusing on the "problems". This is nothing but punishment for their stupidity. Note though: I generally do not target the "noobs" who are new to the game. It's kind of obvious running into them, such as driving a tank off a sudden cliff that everyone else knows about. They are hilarious in their own right. And also really easy to avoid if you are planning something strategic.

However, if the enemy team is just stacked horribly against our own, I'll grief them in hopes to balance things out a bit while they focus their wrath on me alone. Team based games cannot be won by a solo player if the enemies are well organized. I'll admit it, I am not a god at these games, hell I'm usually just your average player. But if it's a bloody team game, I'll, oh I don't know, try to play as a team.

If at the start of the round all the douchebags, you know who you are, switch to the same team just to upset the balance, oh ho ho, the griefing is on big time. Clannies are big time offenders of this. Team games should have *SOME* balance to it. One sided games are not fun for the losing team. You are griefing by your own skill gained by your sheer lack of social skills cave dwellers. Do everyone a favor: if your team is consistently winning, and you are one of the best players on the server, join the other team and give them hope. Not only do you get challenge WHICH I HOPE YOU WANTED but you can teach the lesser skilled the ropes to total pwnage... or whatever you folk call it these days. If you just decided to play so that you can all get 20-1 k/d ratio and rub it in the lesser players' faces, well, piss off griefers.

If things are going well in a game, or is balanced, if I am not playing like everyone else, I generally dick around to almost no harm to any player, such as getting on top of buildings you aren't supposed to and firing single shots of my pistol at unsuspecting enemies clustering below. It's hilarious watching them try to find who is shooting at them! Even better when they teamkill each other due to some lingering internal team conflict. Sure I'm not helping my team all that much, but the game is balanced at this point of time. Most people *should* be having some sort of fun at this time.

whew. End of rant!

I play Garry's Mod. That should be credential enough for anyone who has spent a decent amount of time online in GMOD. EVERYONE in Gmod is a griefer AND a victim at one point, and I really do wish I was joking. It highlights the best and worst of all characters due to the complete freedom offered.

My friend and I have had a few experiences from both sides, but by far, the most prominent experiences were when I was hosting my own server. My god, as a server admin, I had no idea how much griefing there was. But I've dealt with a lot of bullies in my time, and I've learned the best way to defeat them is to grief them. You say it can't be done, but then, you've never played Gmod. Designing automatic turrets that track and kill a specific person? It can be done. Setting them on fire so everytime they spawn they slowly burn to their death? It can be done. Turning them into a ragdoll you can manipulate, attach to things, or launch from a catapult? It can be done. Griefing griefers has been one of the best experiences in my life:
These smug assholes join my server with the intent of ruining other people's fun, and I completely debilitate them and have everyone laugh at them. Nothing pisses a griefer off more than realizing he just made everyone's day brighter.

It can be fun to grief if it's some sort of creative thing that will get people to laugh. I can't think of any of the top of my head right now, but that's pretty much the only time I've purposefully griefed.

Minus the times I've already been pissed off at something, and someone just makes it worse. Like when I failed Dead Air on Expert a few times, I was already angry when I joined a game of Versus. When I joined the game, I was immediately prompted with a "Vote to Kick: Zayren" that filled up in two seconds and I was out. That just made me rage, rejoin the game from my recent players list, and just unload into my teammates. Four times.

Oh, which reminds me of another time, I joined a random game of Versus, play through the entire finale with some guys, whom I thought were nice, and was immediately booted when we got back to the lobby. (To quote the booter,"Let's give this guy a seven." What does that even mean?) I rejoined the game four times before they set it to a closed game. The next day they were playing, still on my recent players list, in an open game with an empty slot, I joined then, not to be a dick, but because I thought they'd laugh. They did. And I got booted. Again.

I'm a girl, and use my mic when I play online games. I get grief from guys trying to get a rise out of me. "Zomg! Is that a girl?" "Nah, sounds more like a 14 year old boy." "Hey kid, when are your balls going to drop?"

>_<

My experiance with griefers online is not what you would call fond. I've seen people that thrive on dishing it out, and I have to agree-- Kind of a dick move.

Johnmw:

Pandalisk:
I do it because it amuses me, do i need another reason other than that? sometimes i just want to be a dick on the internet, i just feel like blocking the door in COD5 zombies, i just feel like i want to drive a warhog near a clif and jump out at the last second sending my comrades to their doom. Why? because i can and why not? i find it funny its not complex their is no reasoning, no phychological problems with me, i just think its funny time to time, though usually i get bored after a while and play the game which is much funner when being serious.
its a matter of "Why the hell not?"

Wow this guy is an old style bully trapped in a nerds body... You basicly enjoy being a dick. On the why the hell not front: BECAUSE YOUR RUINING IT FOR OTHERS. Are you mentally disabled? Can you not see that even if you enjoy something it might not be the right thing to do?. Go play a sandbox game to indulge in that - the sandbox environments caters to all your gamebreaking needs and doesnt impose on others.

A day will come when he learns that fun at the expense of others will one day bite him in the ass. Even if he doesn't activly realize. :)

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