The Escapist Presents: The Escapist On: Griefing

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All you guys sound like some QQing noobs who can't grasp the concept of the new MMO's. The guy who was mad he bought the ammunition that was overpriced, that's your fault. You're argument is flawed, and I really feel no remorse for you're situation. You clicked it, noone made you buy his more expensive auction, you're just that one idiot who made the salesmen rich. If you think wow is a carebear game.. you can come play with me sometime, you must really not know much about the game. Ohh you're cool, you played EQ. Act like that games pvp and pve shit ain't broken. Wow has it all worked out, its just a part of the game. If you choose to play on a pvp server, you're gonna get ganked. Some like it, and others choose to play on the carebear servers. Whichever you'd choose, we're all enjoying the same game in our own way. I'm the asshole with a lvl 80 rogue that doesn't leave Darkshire. (alliance lvl 20-30 zone) I'll log on occasionally just to camp some lowbies for a few hours, venting my aggression from any other aspect of the game onto the other faction. Ahhh the joy, killing every npc in town, and wasting anyone who interferes. Oh no! Some of their mains, or guildies have come to save them.. Off to the shadows where I'll alt tab and do something else. Only to return when they decide to get back to questing, I will continue my sweet grieving.

Glory to the Horde

-Toastybuds

ps. i'm gonna go camp some lvl 30 night elves for a few hours.

toastybuds:
All you guys sound like some QQing noobs who can't grasp the concept of the new MMO's. The guy who was mad he bought the ammunition that was overpriced, that's your fault. You're argument is flawed, and I really feel no remorse for you're situation.

What argument? I was relating something that happened to me, that pissed me off. Mostly because it was my fault. At no point did I try to absolve myself of that responsibility, except initially when my angry response was to email the guy and the CS staff. Watch it again if you didn't catch that the first time around.

And if you think my argument is that the guy was a dick for listing ammo at that price, he absolutely was. That's not debatable. In fact, I'm sure the individual in question has no illusions that he's being a dick. Fun thing in EVE, is he's not breaking any rules. So he's free to BE a dick. Just like real life.

Understand, I know I'm to blame for the mistake. But it doesn't mean the seller is any less of a dick for trying to take advantage of people not paying attention.

The problem is a threefold one, all of them related to human nature and all of them coming to existence not only in videogames, but every online community of people I've ever witnessed.

First, there is the problem of people finding different things funny. The commenters in the video even admit that (for some) there is or can be an element of humor in griefing. See also Brett Staebell's article.

Second is the problem of people feeling like they can get away with being assholes because the repercussions are small or nonexistent. They aren't confronted with the consequences of their behavior (like actually seeing another human being be hurt by your words, which are your actions on the internet, or having an actual punishment result) and of course anyone who points out that they're being a dick is regarded as a 'whiner' or 'pussy' and the group who are in on the griefing, or unaffected, all say: Hey get over it, it's the internet, as though somehow the effort or relationships built online aren't real/don't matter, and it's only how you act in real life that matters.

But the truth is, how you behave online is how you behave in real life. And sure, you can't really be exiled from town anymore (not online, not in real life) it doesn't change the fact that you are an asshole.

Finally, there's the problem of some people just enjoying being rotten.

All of these people thrive on attention. Though Xombee (on page 2) will insist:
"The only misconseption about griefing is that it's done over self-esteem or game skill." S/he fails to actually demonstrate where griefing ISN'T done about self esteem.

Griefers are, to put a nasty point on it, whores who didn't get enough love from Mommy, and now have to shit on you in order to get off.

So the way to solve this is threefold:
First, do not give them attention if at all possible. Addicts leave when they don't get drugs.

Second, remember that their being a dick doesn't give you the right to be a dick, because them being a dick isn't about you. It's about them being attention whores.

Finally, remember that there ARE (and in my opinion, should always be) moderators or admins to whom you can take a problem to. If nothing happens, maybe it's just you (I know there have been times when I could be correctly accused of being thin skinned) but if it's a genuine issue then there should be protocols in any game to handle people who are out to ruin the good time of the many.

I've left games of L4D because the people were behaving in a way I couldn't stand. Instead of letting them ruin my fun I took my ball and went to a new playground. In the future I will start downmodding them, so I run into them less. Win-win.

Noddler:
Someone linked this vid on the Eve online forums, so I thought I drop by and show you what the player base at Eve thinks of this vid and your emotears.

http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1066603

Like I've said before. EVE is Griefer's Hell. It's designed to attract those with a griefing mentality and let them feed off each other. In fact, they don't even consider it griefing over at CCP, rather normal gameplay dynamics that makes them oodles of cash from subscribers starting from scratch over and over again.

The Great JT:
Griefers are really an annoyance that need to be shot. Obviously I have a history with the jerks, so...where do I begin?

Over in World of Warcraft land, I was once ganked (killed by a higher-level player for no apparent reason) and corpsecamped (the person just kept killing me, waiting by my corpse to respawn) the entire length of a zone, once when I was trying to craft an item I was conned out of all my money by a greedy person (the item required me to buy another item from another crafter), the ninja looting is self-explanitory, and it's basically rinse and repeat the first item until I finally changed to a PvE server and eliminated the threat all together.

I don't know what runs through griefer's minds, all I know is I want them dead.

You just proposed your own solution. If you hate being griefed, go to a carebear server. It doesn't mean the griefers don't have the right to grief, it just means we need designated servers for those that don't.

So Ive played a horde lowbie (on a PvP server) , went to an alliance area and waited for one of them to attack me because I was weak- after they initiated an attack (some high level players attacking a lev 23 character) and began attempting to harass me and corpse camp me my buddy appears out of seemingly nowhere because he was a max level rogue with great gear for the time (pre-lich king) and begins slaughtering these would be harassers. More alliance show as backup and he manages to kill them off while I rez. We hang out for 15 minutes killing the windrider and anyone else foolish enough to try and harass me while my buddy is cloaked. Even though the PvP flag has faded, the original group of alliance attempts to attack me again and gets owned by my friends rogue. Saw a post on a forum later bitching about my friend and saying he was totally griefing and being unfair. Is it wrong to grief those who would have otherwise have griefed a friend? They attacked me first thus flagging themselves - I was bait but that still is their choice to attack me.
Bait and gank was my favorite activity in wow- something about me makes people want to attack me so I've learned to turn it into a game advantage via distraction and lures. So fun to watch a ganking party get owned by a single rogue.

This will probably piss some people off and has likely been said before but griefing CAN be performance art- look at Andy Kaufman for an example of griefing as art or comedy. Most griefings are sad or pathetic but some are genuine gold. Peggy forever is one such example.

I am happy that those interviewed in this video are available to respond to comments about the video. I'm going to post something later on but I would like to point out something about the subject of trains in EQ.

o Causing intentional experience loss to other players (deliberately impeding fleeing players by blocking their escape route, intentionally training NPCs on other players, etc.)

From their Rules of Conduct.

http://www.triadcontinuum.net/roconduct.htm (correct me if I'm wrong but that is EQ's EULA?)

Pathetic. A video about a bunch of bads crying because people are mean in video games. You realize that your tears simply spur griefers on more right? The point is to make you frustrated, angry, to report them, to send them hate messages, rage quit.

I mean think about this. What is "the spirit of the game"? To have fun, right? Why is carebear-PVE-everyone be nice to everyone else fun? It is for some. But other people want to pvp. The point of mmos are the player interaction, and that should include scamming, ganking, and griefing, just for the hell of it.

is it not intnended to drive the enjoyment away from other people and keeping it for yourself i mean thats online games xbox live gamers tend to be pricks. i mean look at the works of shawn elliot former 1 up editor http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PYUbUvzlvFw

The_root_of_all_evil:

There's also reverse griefing, where you're actually nice to the people. That REALLY upsets the griefers. Applaud everytime they kill you. Ask how those hacks make you so awesome. Send them little friend requests.

I don't tend to get griefed so much now ;)

This would the tactic I've primarily employed in my years online. Sometimes the results are wonderful to behold.

Sexy.EXE:
Sorry but I have to say I sometimes like to grief.EDIT:Only micspamming that is all.

Same here, i mic spam the Imagination Land song on GTA4 beacuse people go ape shit. They never seem to realise muting me is an option.

Oh, and i teamkill in Halo 3...A LOT.

This helps me to understand what's going on. People think of online games in different ways.

Some people think of an online world as a world where they can be annoying to people (I'm putting it mildly) "just because". Perhaps they think of it as part of gameplay - taunting someone in a pick up sports game. Perhaps they would like to be a jerk to everyone they meet on a city street, and they can't.

Some of us think of an online world as walking down a path in a public space, albeit a public space with interesting quests and monsters, and things to find and do! I don't expect the people I meet in a public space to go out of their way to to harrass me, to get ahead at my expense, or to try to steal from me. That's my world, my environment, how I look at it.

If the world and the game is interesting enough, I'll put up with some level of irritation, but it's never my preference. You call it "carebear" - I call it following the same civility and care that I expect in my real life, when I'm in a public or semi-public space. I think this means several things - looking at ways to make it harder to grief (changing the design, fixing bugs), and enforcing what it means to be on a PvE server - you don't get to grief other people. I don't want anyone to make a spectacle of griefers, but I want them out of my play area. Don't fill my PvE space with people and gameplay that is really PvP.

I can't speak for PvP, but it seems to me that PvP might be more enjoyable if there was a way to make it fair, a real contest, not someone beating on a lower lever character, because they can. I'd be interested in reading about experience where PvP was played "fair". Brutos, several posts previous to mine, had some great comments on how to keep PvP fair in an fps game.

CantFaketheFunk:

Please show me where we whined :) Griefing happens, you deal with it. Or you partake in it.

one of the carnal sins in eve is wasting a GM time when you fell for a scam or in this case scammed yourself.

so petitioning a scam= whining
and then making a video saying you were grifed = lol noob carebear whining

Chribba>There was cheese involved?
when the most diehard carebear in eve calls it whining you know whined somewhere.

direkiller:

CantFaketheFunk:

Please show me where we whined :) Griefing happens, you deal with it. Or you partake in it.

one of the carnal sins in eve is wasting a GM time when you fell for a scam or in this case scammed yourself.

so petitioning a scam= whining
and then making a video saying you were grifed = lol noob carebear whining

Chribba>There was cheese involved?
when the most diehard carebear in eve calls it whining you know whined somewhere.

Yes, not all of us play EVE (no disrespect meant to the fine folks at CCP who throw an awesome party, just not my kind of game). And this was a video made asking us to share our experiences with the concept. :P

Landslide:

toastybuds:
All you guys sound like some QQing noobs who can't grasp the concept of the new MMO's. The guy who was mad he bought the ammunition that was overpriced, that's your fault. You're argument is flawed, and I really feel no remorse for you're situation.

What argument? I was relating something that happened to me, that pissed me off. Mostly because it was my fault. At no point did I try to absolve myself of that responsibility, except initially when my angry response was to email the guy and the CS staff. Watch it again if you didn't catch that the first time around.

And if you think my argument is that the guy was a dick for listing ammo at that price, he absolutely was. That's not debatable. In fact, I'm sure the individual in question has no illusions that he's being a dick. Fun thing in EVE, is he's not breaking any rules. So he's free to BE a dick. Just like real life.

Understand, I know I'm to blame for the mistake. But it doesn't mean the seller is any less of a dick for trying to take advantage of people not paying attention.

He's a dick for taking advantage of idiots who don't pay attention. You can call it foulplay, but I see it as a filter for people who are too simple minded to understand and grasp such things, which are then opportunities available in the economies of any online game. If something can go wrong.. it will. There's always a chance, and it can indeed pay off.

CantFaketheFunk:

Please show me where we whined.

took the time to wach the video again:
3:20 ish in the video
jon:"problem was they were doing it inside the rules. So when i contacted customer support..."

and the post below all count as whining

Landslide:

And if you think my argument is that the guy was a dick for listing ammo at that price, he absolutely was. That's not debatable. In fact, I'm sure the individual in question has no illusions that he's being a dick. Fun thing in EVE, is he's not breaking any rules. So he's free to BE a dick. Just like real life.

to Landslide:

Am i a dick when i canflip?(a lot of hate mail from this i all chuckled at)
Am i a dick when i kill someone in lowsec?(mor hate mail)
Am i a dick when i kill a 3 month old raven in CVA space?(again with the hate mail)
Am i a dick when a guy logs on after 6 month break finds out he is stuck in hostile 0.0 space with 100mill in ships,fittings and i buy it for 25mill and give him a complementary podding back to empire?

all within the game rules,all things i have done,and are consider dickish to different people i just see it as playing the game.

a dickhead in eve(just as in real life) is always from a person perspective,generally the losing person seeing the winner as a dick, and is very debatable. The way i and most of eveo sees it he was just playing the game.

I dont play eve or EQ or any mmorpg but yeah that guy got scammed and while not illegal it still is a sucky thing to do. But that guy still fell for it when he shouldn't have so it isnt really griefing. However if someone does something with the sole purpose to be to ruin that persons experience then no it is not ok. It is not acceptable for someone to go to the movies and talk loudly and do anything they like so i don't see how griefers can justify doing things for the sole purpose of reducing the enjoyment of others. Gamers have jsut as much right to get a chance to enjoy a game as the moviegoers do. The movie might be bad but if someone at least got the chance to judge it for themselves then they wouldnt mind so much.

I don't think it is too much to expect common courtesy from other people. NO-one wants a world with no bad stuff in it but they don't want one where anyone can do anything with little or no consequences.

end rant.

To "direkiller" - Yes, you are a dick.

I will grant you that it is justifiable in Eve Online though - behavior that would be considered griefing in other games is just par for the course in that game.

I think there are some things that being called "griefing" that really aren't- using cutthroat tactics to gain an advantage when you are competing against other players, but aren't against the rules, is not griefing. It may not be nice, but it's within the spirit of the game (especially in games like Eve or most PvP servers).

Then there are those that do things that give them no in game benefit, but simply annoy other players, or in extreme cases make it so they can't play the game. Micspammers, teamkillers, using a bug to crash a server, leading monsters to (normally safe) areas where they can kill people, etc. These are all things that are outside the intended gameplay, and generally there is very little you can do to stop them. That's griefing. (What's really pathetic is they seem to think they are cool for using some exploit they read about on the internet, or abusing their microphone. You can see examples their childish bravado in this very thread.)

If the game doesn't give me an effective way of dealing with people who do that, then I generally won't play the game. If the game does give me a way of dealing with the griefers, then they just become another aspect of the game to master.

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