Griefmonkeys

Griefmonkeys

Don't hate the griefer, hate the game.

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So where do spawn campers fit in this? They are people actually playing the game, and purposely stopping other players from doing so.

I do see a bit of griefing in TF2, mostly with the snipers. People like to stand in front of them and stop them from doing their job. Also had a few cases with engineers who place teleporters in a way to prevent their teammates from reaching the medical cabinet.

DeadlyYellow:
So where do spawn campers fit in this? They are people actually playing the game, and purposely stopping other players from doing so.

I think theyre just assholes, haha. Spawn camping takes no imagination and its usually people wanting to pad their frag counts.

I once read that that griefer means someone who is more imaginative within games than the rest of us...

But some are just lazy. It's these who are bad, the rest are rather funny.

Edit: Your WoW example is an example of boring. An example of imaginative is the paladins I met who were showing a warrior cool tricks with flying mounts, they'd dismount above lakes in nagrand and bubbled just before they hit the shallow water. The warrior followed suit and promptly died.

DeadlyYellow:
So where do spawn campers fit in this? They are people actually playing the game, and purposely stopping other players from doing so.

I do see a bit of griefing in TF2, mostly with the snipers. People like to stand in front of them and stop them from doing their job. Also had a few cases with engineers who place teleporters in a way to prevent their teammates from reaching the medical cabinet.

I do view the ability to spawn-camp in games as a design flaw. Perhaps not all spawn campers are griefers but assuming it's unwanted behavior it should be prevented. (With a server-side switch to disable the prevention for people who like the brutal "any means necessary" style of play.)

The player is given both the incentive (you get points) and the ability to do so. That's just inviting that sort of behavior.

Shamus Young:

DeadlyYellow:
So where do spawn campers fit in this? They are people actually playing the game, and purposely stopping other players from doing so.

I do see a bit of griefing in TF2, mostly with the snipers. People like to stand in front of them and stop them from doing their job. Also had a few cases with engineers who place teleporters in a way to prevent their teammates from reaching the medical cabinet.

I do view the ability to spawn-camp in games as a design flaw. Perhaps not all spawn campers are griefers but assuming it's unwanted behavior it should be prevented. (With a server-side switch to disable the prevention for people who like the brutal "any means necessary" style of play.)

The player is given both the incentive (you get points) and the ability to do so. That's just inviting that sort of behavior.

We need technology to move the spawn point behind the camper.

Interesting article, although I do think cheaters are a form of griefer, as their fun comes at the price of everyone else's.

Anywho, the problem with trying to destroy griefers is the sheer complexity of even simple game worlds. Trying to predict every possible behaviour and countering them is extremely difficult to achieve, and near impossible when you factor in the complexity of online multiplayer games across the unpredictable internet.

In an online game, the guilty party is the one who allowed the griefing to happen in the first place. If you want to be mad at someone, be mad at the developer.

While certainly many examples of griefing can be blamed on the developer, I can easily come up with valid game mechanics that there is simply no way to work around. For example, in the game DotA, there is a unit with the ability to have any nearby unit take a small amount of damage but get increased damage output. This can be used to kill enemies or help allies, or kill allies and help enemies. It's a good game mechanic, as it forces you to make a tough decision in certain situations, but in the wrong hands can be used in a manner that I believe fits your description of griefing. The only way that I see for the developer to prevent this would be to remove all game mechanics capable of providing both a plus and a minus to your allies or enemies.

You put all the blame on the game developers. Is it possible to forsee all the ways somebody else can be a jerk?

i64ever:
You put all the blame on the game developers. Is it possible to forsee all the ways somebody else can be a jerk?

That's definitely not possible. I would however say that closing 75% of the loopholes griefers uses is better than doing nothing at all. Sure, the remaining 25% will see more use, but the overall griefing should decrease. The less loopholes there is, the less opportunities the griefer has. This should lead to a lower success rate for him even if he's pouring just as much energy as before into it.

There are physical laws and there are rules, and everyone obeys the former even if they flaunt the latter.

Flaunt here should be flout.

Anyway, I think both the griefers and the exploits that enable them should be dealt with. It's not really feasible to find every exploit before releasing a game of any significant complexity.

Ah, you've reminded me why I don't bother playing online anymore. Just got sick of jerks, griefers and other assorted idiots. The only time I really enjoyed multiplayer gaming was with a Firearms/Counterstrike clan [KOD].

It depends on the greif, some are annoying (spawn campers) but some are funny the WoW like the one by Cpt_Oblivious or the penis grief on second life which I have lost the link to. Immature I know but I'm to tired to care.

Course, there is always the path Eve Online seems to take. They decide that griefers and scammers are just part of the game, and make it a 'selling point' of the game... a 'there is no real law here, so take care of yourself or die' kinda environment.

But yes, many of the ways griefers are able to really make a game less than fun is by exploiting bugs within a game, things that the developer should have caught when they were making the game. When I was in WoW I was always of the opinion that they should not have 'rules' to the game, they should have it coded in. If the game allows me to do something, then it should be legal to do, period. Should this not be how you intended the game to function, then fix it. Don't just tell me 'oh, by the way, there is this bug, please don't use it... we might fix it but really you should just not use it or we will punish you'. You fix the bug or you live with it, this is a game world where you control the entire environment after all!

The in-game griefer usually points the finger of blame at the victim for "sucking so bad," but that defense makes about as much sense as a rapist who says he's innocent because his victim wasn't any good at fighting back.

Griefers are annoying, but like spammers and syphilis they are an omnipresent threat that must be anticipated and protected against.

Comparing griefing to rape and syphilis? That's pretty heavy.

xmetatr0nx:

DeadlyYellow:
So where do spawn campers fit in this? They are people actually playing the game, and purposely stopping other players from doing so.

I think theyre just assholes, haha. Spawn camping takes no imagination and its usually people wanting to pad their frag counts.

it's so fun though, it's even better when you bring friends.

zoozilla:

The in-game griefer usually points the finger of blame at the victim for "sucking so bad," but that defense makes about as much sense as a rapist who says he's innocent because his victim wasn't any good at fighting back.

Griefers are annoying, but like spammers and syphilis they are an omnipresent threat that must be anticipated and protected against.

Comparing griefing to rape and syphilis? That's pretty heavy.

Hey, it works.

I agree with Shamus in this case, although friendly fire exists mostly to pay attention to realism, that's not really what you're playing the game for.

And yet another reason why I love Team Fortress 2.

Confession of an Online Griefer:

Why'd I do it? I could rationalize it so many different ways: I had a bad day at work, I needed to blow off steam, I had it happen to me, I wanted to see what would happen, on-and-on-and-on.

But, hey, let's be honest: I was bored and griefing you was more fun than actually playing the game. I wanted a toy to play with and you were there.

Yes, I'm a jerk. Yes, I'm a bully. Yes, I'm an online bastard that just needs to get a life. I've come to terms with all of those things, I've come to an acceptance that my inner child is an evil, wing ripping, hair pulling, mud-with-rocks throwing, stealing, lying brat.

I am unrepentant. I don't seek absolution through this. If anything, I'm griefing you now by explaining that no matter what you do (did), no matter how many times you curse(d) my name or wish(ed) I would die in a fire, I'm still here and the only reason I grief is because sometimes I get bored with playing with the game and need a new toy to entertain me before I log off. I just wanted to watch you dance for me and be my personal monkey.

It's really that simple for me. Some times I'm playing a game and I just get bored. Not bored enough to log off because if I do that well then there's nothing to do but work, clean, watch television, or sleep. And let's be fair, screwing around with another living human being is infinitely more entertaining than any of the other alternatives.

And there's nothing that game developers can do to stop me. Any game wherein you allow people to compete will inevitably allow griefers to spawn. What you can do is attempt to minimize their impact. The thing that a griefer steals, the grief they cause, is that the player(s) being griefed lose time. The more time the griefed player loses and the harsher that player is punished, then the more fun it is for the griefer.

Take UO or EQ, for example. Here are games where griefing someone the right way means that they could lose nearly *everything* they had worked for. EvE Online is similar. Griefing someone in a game with a harsh punishment mechanic is the very definition of fun because by training you, trapping you, or killing you I may have erased hours, days, or even months worth of work. Imagine killing someone in EQ to the extent that they could never get their corpse back - it's almost delightful in a twisted, torturing-a-fly way. Or standing just outside of town in UO, constantly blowing lower levels away for no other reason than you can. And in EvE, it's immensely fun to blow up someone's hard worked for ship in a suicide run then destroy the wreck so that nothing can be salvaged. Months of gametime vanished in the blink of an eye. (To those that would argue that you cannot grief in EvE then I humbly suggest that Empire is intended to be "safe"; the developers are just afraid that doing so de juris would destroy their economic model further)

On the other hand, you have games like WoW or Warhammer Online where death is such a minor inconvenience that it can almost be ignored. Griefing someone in these games is, dare I say, immensely unsatisfying unless they are silly enough to continue to put themselves in a position to be griefed. The low level newbie you've slaughtered over and over again can always (or at least inevitably) escape your attempts to grief him and find somewhere else to go. Plus he's lost maybe minutes of work unless he's sufficiently daft to come back to the same place over and over again.

Even further, in FPS's griefing is ephemeral. Sure you can go on a team killing spree, but the meaning of it - the loss - is absolutely nil. The players just drop out and join a different server. Or, they vote to evict you as most modern games have implemented a democratic solution to dealing with teamkilling. The only power over you that a griefer has in an FPS is if you continue to come back round after round without ever considering that the fight on this server is the exact same as the fight on that other server.

So, really, if a "solution" to griefers is to be found, there is some guidance from the other side of the fence. Hope it helps and see you online.

Certain MMOs such as EVE online wouldn't have become as popular if it enforced strict, rigid laws to prevent 'griefing' or exploitation.

http://gamersushi.com/2009/02/06/eve-players-pulls-off-most-badass-grief-job-ever/
Or, if you're feeling lazy here's an excerpt-

Eddy- "the league of spies coerced one of the leaders of Band of Brothers to defect,
essentially handing over the keys to the castle. He handed over ownership of the corporation,
accounts, funds, ships, player lists, even passwords to the forums. From there, all hell broke
loose. The Band of Brothers was disbanded, their in-game accounts emptied of all of their money
(billions of in-game currency) and their territory was released back into the wild. It has resulted in
one of the biggest territory grabs in EVE history."

I find this somewhat odd that this event actually brought in quite a lot more people to play Eve Online.

However, I will admit that 'griefing' generally is just irritating and unnecessary in most online games.
I don't quite understand how players can find enough interest to 'grief' players for any extended period of time.

Normally griefing is just being a prick, but sometimes it's funny: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-rl3RPC_Mw

Yakety Sax just makes it better. Remember kids, always but clipping of PCs in your games!

Excellent article.

As a PvPr I often get tagged with the title "griefer." I don't want to take away your fun, I just want to destroy you. There is a difference. I want to find someone in your group, or in your numbers, that can give me a challenge.

I will give you an example. In AoC I played a Necromancer named Arendt. Arendt loved to PvP, I made Arednt a female, and as short as possible. Why? Harder to hit, harder to see, and a bit more demoralizing to my enemy for the ends of defeating them.

When the server I was playing on first started it really was a fun time, you could attack anyone anywhere (except for cities) and this often led to huge fights. I often ran with my cous or a friend and we'd take down people twice our level, we even once took down a level 80 Tempest of Set as level 40s. Those are the things we were looking for, but you can ask many of the people we generally encountered, we usually didn't kill people who conned grey to us. Why? No point. They didn't give us EXP, and they weren't in our way.

We would sometimes happen upon groups of players spawn camping the first rez point in a zone. A player would have just come into the zone and only gotten that one rez point and was unable to spawn at another one should they choose. This angered me, and my cousin was apathetic. My cousin asked "Why should we have to babysit them?" I responded "Why not crush those 80s doing it?" We would often times put our leveling on hold and just take out the griefers for fun. As with bullies, they were very weak, usually a stealth character who really did not know how to play. I generally play as part of a team, and compared to solo even duo becomes exponentially better, and there were usually very few of them.

The players that were getting camped would thank us and I would tell them that their best bet in situations like those is #1 to make friends or #2 to just log off and come back later. Most PvPrs do not really care about new players getting griefed. In Age of Conan it wouldn't have been possible as a player to stop all of the griefing even if I wanted to, because they only had to show up in one place while I would have had to guard them all which would have stopped my progression entirely.

I have many stories like this, about protecting against griefing in Age of Conan, but let me tell you how this one ends. My cousin eventually left the game because he was bored. The game didn't provide the type of challenge that he needed and some of the mechanics were horribly out of whack (Gem exploiting and stacking.) I stayed with it a bit longer, but I most of the time ran solo because no one played alongside me quiet as well as my cousin. If anyone had played AoC up to the release of the PvP system they experienced the same thing as I did. Most of the high level PvP took place in Kheshatta, and most of it was duels. As a reanimation necromancer, not only was this not fun, but it was not challenging either. I kept at it for about a month and everyone began to start to hate me on Bloodspire. Why? Because I would interrupt their duels. I was in a game that went from complete and utter chaos, pvp knife at your back at any time, to a game of dueling. So I was labeled a "Griefer." I engaged in non-consensual PvP on a PvP server and I was labeled for it.

I read through these articles in the Issue 200:Good Griefing and I realize that many of these people who were labeling me as a griefer had many of the same false associations and conclusions that writers of these articles have. So why am I writing this account? Simply to say that I am not a sociopath (as labeled in correspondence with one of the columnists) I am just a pvpr looking for a challenge.

This story does have a happy ending though, me and my cousin have no found the game EVE. I am 3 months into the game and I am enjoying it immensely.

Shamus Young, thank you for writing this article, I hope your colleagues at the escapist will read it and give it some thought.

Come on Seamus, if someone really want to ruin a game for everyone else they can always find a way. It should not be the developers responsibility to ensure that giefing can't happen in thier new release, they should be concentrating on the important stuff, graphics, gameplay. Maybe if the gameplay was good enough people wouldn;t feel the need to grief.

Lawz:
Come on Seamus, if someone really want to ruin a game for everyone else they can always find a way. It should not be the developers responsibility to ensure that giefing can't happen in thier new release, they should be concentrating on the important stuff, graphics, gameplay. Maybe if the gameplay was good enough people wouldn;t feel the need to grief.

Yes, they will always find a way. However, the more time a griefer has to spend finding a way, the less time he has to grief. Also, some methods requires the right opportunity before the griefing can be executed. If you can run up to just about anyone and attack him, that's a method you can use constantly. However, if your method of griefing requires that the victim does a certain action, is unaware of a certain mechanic or is in the right place, then you will only be able to grief if the respective conditions are fulfilled. By plugging the constantly available methods to grief the amount of griefing can be reduced.

As for griefers griefing less if the gameplay is good, do you really believe that? The griefer is in some way playing a different game than the others. They have completely different goals, methods and challenges. Even if you make the gameplay really good, chance is it's still a game the griefer isn't able to fully commit to.

I have a major problem with your article, Shamus; it assumes that interactions that can be "griefed" can always be found in testing and removed by the designers.

That would be simple if the games limited interaction between players, but the more sophisticated the interactions get and the more choices players can make the harder it is to find these opportunities. Keep in mind also the fundamental limitation of testing; players will always be able to play the game for more than you can reasonably test it. If you sell a half-million copies of your game in the first month, and each player spends only ten hours playing in that month, that's still 5 million man-hours of play in one month. I don't know if any game can be tested to a comparable figure before release.

Stuff is going to slip by test and found by players because players will have more chances to reach those one-in-a-million combinations.

I agree that studios probably need to find more testers who understand the griefer mentality (and stand behind them with tasers and tranquiliser guns, and maybe put bomb-collars around their necks, to prevent their escape back into the wild) and thereby catch more possibilities, but I think expecting studios to eliminate the possibility of griefing is expecting a bit much.

-- Steve

DeadlyYellow:
So where do spawn campers fit in this? They are people actually playing the game, and purposely stopping other players from doing so.
...

Well by this logic anyone who shoots you anywhare else on the map (assuming we're talking fps) is a griefer, if all it takes for you to call them griefers is that they pwn you.

Unless the server info or admins tells me not to, i'll spwancamp in BF2, it's a valid and effecient tactic to kill the enemy (the point of the freaking game)
Theres nothing better than sneaking behind enemy lines in Ghost Town (BF2sf map) and get on a roof at their uncap and snipe their asses, or keep blowing up the chopper. I don't consider this grief play at all, i'm taking out the enemy and reducing their tickets, and tehreby helping my team. It's no more grief play than shooting them anywhere else on the map, and if they don't liek to get shot they shouldn't play FPS.

Back on the main topic, you can't always blame the developers. Friendly fire for instance is a nice part of some fps games, cause it makes you think of where you throw your damn grenades. I hate when FF is off in some BF2 maps and theres more explosives flying through the air than there is on new years eve.
But Friendly fire also allows griefers to rape their own team throughout the entire game, so if developers took it out they wouldn't have fixed a flaw, they would've had to take a good gameplay feature out cause of griefers, which would be a huge victory for them, cause they're sad pathetic assholes with nothing better to do than ruin the game for others.

Hey Shamus, you don't think the games designers have better things to do that hand-holding the new players around their game and punishing the insolent little brats making the game hell for the rest of us? Designing a game is a multi-million pound job, with a multi-million things to do, not all loose ends can be tied up before release (thankYOU publishers), and even after that there's bugs, balancing issues, listening to feedback for the community, moderating, addons and not forgetting to make other games!

Developers have a hard enough time these days (amazing graphics and believable AI don't come cheap), don't dump other people's anti-social behavior problems on them too, that's just not their prerogative. This is why giving feedback on players' attitude and a voting system on games are such excellent ways for players to self-moderate!

Teamkilling has no place in any game

however spawn camping is often a part of the game...its a design flaw...or its proof that your team sucks bad enough to be pushed back into such a situation lol

Great article, Shamus, and I agree with you. I think making things difficult for griefers should be part of the game design. Also, design for MMOs is ongoing - if something is not working, that doesn't mean that it has to not work forever.

On spawn camping - looks like a design problem to me.

I can't tell if the avowed "griefer" in a previous post was joking or serious. If serious, I'd say the answer is to get the person out of the game. It's a pity that more game publishers don't do that. I like to think that we try to teach our fellow humans not to be bullies, but something obviously is not working in the online world. It looks like an online environment, being anoymous, is a way for people to bully with less repercussions than in the real world. I'm not at the point where I think anomynity is a bad thing, but it does tell you something about human behavior. I personally can't stop the above bully (assuming the post is genuine), but I'd like that person out of any game I play. This bullying behavior isn't restricted to online gaming. I've seen it in other online environments. You have to stop the bad behavior or it feeds on itself.

As before, I can't really comment on PvP (dont't do, can't you tell - little joke here!), but it does seem to me that there should be a concept of making PvP, somehow, fair. Crushing someone, just because you can, seems to defeat the whole point of PvP. I'll also leave Eve Online out of it, because I simply cannot tell what is acceptable gameplay and what is griefing. Maybe, for those who like space games and don't like Eve, they will find some of the upcoming space games a little more to their liking.

teisjm:

DeadlyYellow:
So where do spawn campers fit in this? They are people actually playing the game, and purposely stopping other players from doing so.

Well by this logic anyone who shoots you anywhere else on the map (assuming we're talking fps) is a griefer, if all it takes for you to call them griefers is that they pwn you.

I find it odd you mention logic here, and then miss it entirely (can't really expect much else from someone who uses the term 'pwn' with what I can only interpret as a straight face.) And as it's been stated before, it is a rather finicky line here, and we could be arguing over a large gray area. Still I ask: is there no difference to you shooting people right as they enter the game/map (griefing,) or actually letting them the chance to defend themselves and fail?

teisjm:
Unless the server info or admins tells me not to, I'll spawn camp in BF2, it's a valid and efficient tactic to kill the enemy (the point of the freaking game)

Yes just like in real life. Target the places the enemy magically appears.

teisjm:
Theres nothing better than sneaking behind enemy lines in Ghost Town (BF2sf map) and get on a roof at their uncap and snipe their asses, or keep blowing up the chopper. I don't consider this grief play at all, i'm taking out the enemy and reducing their tickets, and thereby helping my team.

You do pose a rather valid argument. Disabling vehicles is beneficial.

teisjm:
It's no more grief play than shooting them anywhere else on the map, and if they don't like to get shot they shouldn't play FPS.

And now you lost it. I love your condescending attitude here, it makes me chuckle. I'm surprised you didn't bring up the point "if they're bad at playing, they shouldn't play at all."

teisjm:
Back on the main topic, you can't always blame the developers. Friendly fire, for instance, is a nice part of some fps games because it makes you think of where you throw your damn grenades. I hate when FF is off on some BF2 maps and there are more explosives flying through the air than on new years eve.
But Friendly fire also allows griefers to rape their own team throughout the entire game..

Out of the gray and onto solid grounding where we both agree. Here is an issue people tend to both love and hate at the same time. Get a good team going, and it will actually help strengthen it (here having to coordinate attacking and maneuvers to avoid winding up with a face full of friendly lead.) Get a team killer, and the game loses any entertainment value.

I think Shamus's point is that ONLY the developers have the power to stop, or reduce griefing.

Therefore it is the developer's responsibility to take appropriate steps.

Well I don't know about you guys but griefers are so funny sometimes.

like this one time I was playing Garry's Mod and this fella that was trying to prop block a combine door infront of the spawn, not realizing that I was not at the spawn so I went up to him and shot him in the face. After doing that he left one second later.

Spawn camping could be solved by making a "spawn area" instead of a spawn point...

Was it done already ? or is it hard to code for some reason ?

DeadlyYellow:

teisjm:

DeadlyYellow:
So where do spawn campers fit in this? They are people actually playing the game, and purposely stopping other players from doing so.

Well by this logic anyone who shoots you anywhere else on the map (assuming we're talking fps) is a griefer, if all it takes for you to call them griefers is that they pwn you.

I find it odd you mention logic here, and then miss it entirely (can't really expect much else from someone who uses the term 'pwn' with what I can only interpret as a straight face.) And as it's been stated before, it is a rather finicky line here, and we could be arguing over a large gray area. Still I ask: is there no difference to you shooting people right as they enter the game/map (griefing,) or actually letting them the chance to defend themselves and fail?

teisjm:
Unless the server info or admins tells me not to, I'll spawn camp in BF2, it's a valid and efficient tactic to kill the enemy (the point of the freaking game)

Yes just like in real life. Target the places the enemy magically appears.

teisjm:
Theres nothing better than sneaking behind enemy lines in Ghost Town (BF2sf map) and get on a roof at their uncap and snipe their asses, or keep blowing up the chopper. I don't consider this grief play at all, i'm taking out the enemy and reducing their tickets, and thereby helping my team.

You do pose a rather valid argument. Disabling vehicles is beneficial.

teisjm:
It's no more grief play than shooting them anywhere else on the map, and if they don't like to get shot they shouldn't play FPS.

And now you lost it. I love your condescending attitude here, it makes me chuckle. I'm surprised you didn't bring up the point "if they're bad at playing, they shouldn't play at all."

teisjm:
Back on the main topic, you can't always blame the developers. Friendly fire, for instance, is a nice part of some fps games because it makes you think of where you throw your damn grenades. I hate when FF is off on some BF2 maps and there are more explosives flying through the air than on new years eve.
But Friendly fire also allows griefers to rape their own team throughout the entire game..

Out of the gray and onto solid grounding where we both agree. Here is an issue people tend to both love and hate at the same time. Get a good team going, and it will actually help strengthen it (here having to coordinate attacking and maneuvers to avoid winding up with a face full of friendly lead.) Get a team killer, and the game loses any entertainment value.

First of all, I haven't yet spawncamped in a game, where you can point your gun at the excact point someones gonna spawn, dunno if thats part of the reason for our different oppinions.
When i talk about spawn camping i see it as your team sort of progressing on the map.

Yes i use pwn with a straight face, online as well as spoken in real life.
No i'm not some arrogant pro, i'm more often the pwn'ee (no not the little horse) than the pwn'er if that makes any sense. My kill/death ratio is quite often below 1 (which means i get killed more than i kill) I just don't get all angry/whiny when someone kills me, not directed at you, but at half the people playing online, who keeps whining about imbalance, rusher-fags, snipers and stuff when they die, instead of just accepting that they're not "über-pro" and try to play as good as they can. I don't mind dying several times to pull off a single cool kill, while it seems that many other people with my skill lvl (which is WAY below pro) just can't accept the fact that they're not the center of attention and everyones favorite team-member who single handedly saves the day.

Don't use real life comparisions like "magically apear" when talking about a game, it doesn't make sense since it's not a real life war simulator.
If we have to go there anyways, attacking the base where troops arrive to the country they're invading would be a very efficient tactic.
IMO this evens the score on broken logic to 1-1

The reason I use the spawn-shot = shot anywhere example is that people doesn't have a chance to play and enjoy themselves while beeing dead. Tough luck, you're gonna have to spend some time doing nothing and beeing dead in FPS with spawn time, no matetr where people shoot you. You CAN strike back at a spawn camper efficiently (at least in BF) so i don't consider it a sort of unfair play. If it's in a game where you're 100% sure where people spawn and you can head-shoot everyone who spawns in less than 1 second then yes, the dev's should've made it better, but in BF if i shoot a guy when he spawns he prolly knows where i'm at, while i don't know where he'll spawn, since spawn areas are sort of large, so i'm not stopping him from playing, i'm just moving part of the battle to his spawn by sneaking behind enemy lines.

Glad we agree on friendly fire.

Hope this answers some of your questions. I sortof think we're talking different games here which might make a huge difference, and i think you got me wrong, i'm not some arrogant pro (would NEVER use the phrase "if they're bad at playing, they shouldn't play at all.) I'm not that good at most games myself, i'm just not egocentric enough to get my game experience ruined by the fact that a lto of people are betetr than me, as i explained above. And yes, i don't think peole should play multiplayer if they can't cope with the fact that the game revolev around two full teams of players, and not one person like single player games.

Developers can be blamed if they neglect to fix the problems they introduce, but griefers are always to blame for their own behavior. Taking advantage of a programming oversight may say something about the programmers, but it says a lot more about those who would abuse said oversight to the detriment of other players.

I don't care how cynical you are, you're still responsible for your own actions. The Devil (or the developers) didn't make you do anything.

 

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