You Can't Be the Hero If You're the Rapist

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crypt-creature:

Eesh, that's rough.

Personally, my fiancee was abused, but I've known no one who's been raped.
I suppose by 'exposure' I meant taught in school or confronted with the subject by parents or victim of such an act. If a ban on such games were more an unspoken rule, I might respect humanity a little more.
A flat out ban may be infracting on a 'freedom' of some sort, but even a free society has rules and things they deem legal or illegal. A ban is just more direct.

Count yourself lucky.
It's a distinctly unpleasant experience.

I know what you meant, I was just being a jerk, I guess.

MaxTheReaper:

I know what you meant, I was just being a jerk, I guess.

Max, I don't know how to tell you this...
But you failed.

I do count myself lucky, though knowing about the abuse (of the sexual sort) is bad enough.

crypt-creature:

MaxTheReaper:

I know what you meant, I was just being a jerk, I guess.

Max, I don't know how to tell you this...

But you failed.

I dunno how to tell you this, but I'm going to do it in the most gentlest way possible.

You were adopted, your mum slept with the postman, your dad slept with his secretary, and all of your childhood pets were put down, they didn't run away.

MaxTheReaper:

crypt-creature:

MaxTheReaper:

I know what you meant, I was just being a jerk, I guess.

Max, I don't know how to tell you this...

But you failed.

I dunno how to tell you this, but I'm going to do it in the most gentlest way possible.

You were adopted, your mum slept with the postman, your dad slept with his secretary, and all of your childhood pets were put down, they didn't run away.

Sorry kid, but I actually am adopted, and my parents were in their teens. All my childhood pets died, none ran away to begin with :]

crypt-creature:

Sorry kid, but I actually am adopted, and my parents were in their teens. All my childhood pets died, none ran away to begin with :]

...
Curses.

One day! One day I will win!

MaxTheReaper:

crypt-creature:

Sorry kid, but I actually am adopted, and my parents were in their teens. All my childhood pets died, none ran away to begin with :]

...
Curses.

One day! One day I will win!

*pets* keep telling yourself that, sport.

Kidding, I'm sure you'll one-up me more than just once.

can a game made to glorify rape be banned because of it?

would it be different if your killing a person than if you raped that person?

There are games that make us question are moral values, games that make us justify our actions
like "I killed him cause his a terrorist" or "self-defense" bottom line is you killed him for a cause or you simply wanted to. rape on the other hand can't be justifiable, have you ever heard of a vigilante who rapes people in the name of justice? no.
(If you look hard enough you'll probably find something like it in japan, a hentai of some sort)

but it's still just a game sure its evil, demented, perverted and some would even say diabolical but the point remains its just a game

scenario:

imagine playing a perfect life simulator MMO (think along the lines of the sims online)
where everything and anything possible in real life can be imitated in the virtual world

your avatar was taking a stroll around the park at night when suddenly a bunch of hooded figures jumps at you and violates you in ways you could never imagine and left you there
now heres where reality and the gaming world differ

in real life:

you go to the police and plead your case and hope the authorities catch and punish those no good criminals and be forever scared

in a MMO game:

you gather a bunch of friends stock up on guns and ammo and kill those who have harmed you with the most brutal way possible and you log-out with a smile on your face

see the difference?

lets not forget it's still your choice the buy/play the game in the first place
and to begin with if your mind functions normally you would know better than to buy a game
titled RAPElay or did you expect ground breaking storytelling and expect something decent

ninjanyne:

in real life:

you go to the police and plead your case and hope the authorities catch and punish those no good criminals and be forever scared

If only the real world worked like that, and it were so easy for a person to confess to being raped (yeah, good luck getting a little kid to go tell someone they were raped) and not be ridiculed by others (they deserved it, brought it on their self, etc..).

If things were that easy, people wouldn't wait years to finally admit to a friend or stranger what happened to them, much less an officer of the law.
It's not just a physical violation, it's a mental one as well.

I've been thinking more on the idea that rape games aren't games in the conventional sense, they're pornography. One of the most commonly used arguments I see in this thread is "at what point in the game would any player need/want to rape someone?".
You could very simply ask, "at what point would a player need to slaughter innocents?" In God Of War, you do it to gain a health power up. In God Of War, the main character's a murderous psychopath. What if, during the sex scenes in the God Of War games, Kratos raped women instead of merely having sex with them?. How about a game that contains a non-interactive rape scene? What about a game, like Condemned or Quake IV, where the character's helpless in first person mode while something horrible happens to them, such as being raped?

People have argued that rape is more protracted and thus distressing than murder. Sure, that argument is silly when we apply it to pornography, but say there was a game where you could torture people to death over a protracted period of time if you so chose (I'm looking at you, Punisher)? Sure, there'd be some attention, but I think there wouldn't be such controversey or calls for a ban on torture as a whole. How about a game that allows you to inflict mortal or crippling wounds, taking someone's arm or leg off halfway and leaving them to scream and bleed out? It'd be shocking, but not to the extent we're faced with here. The taboo surrounding rape is a social construct. It's not logical or sensible, and it's something drilled into us. It's conditioning.

As a seperate point, games like Rapelay are just rape pornography, catering to a specific sexual fetish. Are we saying now that such material shouldn't be accessible to those who desire it? Porn's allowed, but not if it becomes rape? Are there degrees of interactivity?
Is rape allowable as a plot device, or story sequence? Then why the hell not as an interactive sequence? Surely it's the player's right to choose if they want to play rape games or not?

dogstile:

Vanguard_Ex:

dogstile:

Vanguard_Ex:

Cliff_m85:

WrongSprite:

MaxTheReaper:
Just responding to the question in the OP: Because murder can be justified.
See also: Dexter.

Rape can never serve a good purpose.

And now to read.

I give you GTA4. Is cutting down civilians justified? Then maybe they should both be banned.

Technically you aren't forced to cut down civilians.

Bullseye. It's your choice if you kill any civilians, like it would be in a real city, but there aren't really any consequences. Thus why it is just a game, and does not really merge with real-life.

its someones choice to play rapegames, is it not?

anyway, why are japan banning this game when america's people are outraged, america doesn't give japan profit from rape games, so japan didn't need to try and ban it at all

"we're japan, we'll bend over, for all your needs"

You miss my point. Within the game of GTA, you choose whether or not you kill civilians, whereas this game centres solely around rape.

i get your point just fine, you still choose if you rape people or not, the difference being that if you decide not to rape someone, you save cash because you didn't buy the game

as it is, we as one group of people hold no right to say that what the other people do is wrong, unless it affects us, this doesn't, so therefore the censorship is wrong

What on earth are you talking about? 'If you decide not to rape someone, you save cash because you didn't buy the game'? What?

Of course we have a right to say what other people do is wrong when it doesn't affect us. A man murders a family that you don't belong to or have any emotional ties to, just because he wanted to. Is this wrong? Of course it is. I'm not going to go into the censorship because I'm not talking about that.

MaxTheReaper:

ThatJagoGuy:

MaxTheReaper:

Rape can never serve a good purpose.

What about if aliens invaded and started killing everyone and the only way to dispatch them was to rape them? Not to be overly pedantic, but I think it would be justified in that situation.

As for the game - from what I've read, I can't approve. On the plus side, however, it's nice to see developers thinking outside of the box... or... um... inside. Sorry.

Give me a reason that justifies the continued existence of the human race.
Is it really worth it?

Well, it essentially becomes the same as murder then; an inhumane act justified in being a means of defense. So then it's as worth it as the worth of killing. There's no real answer.

Violence in games is okay because there is a precedent set by television and film that violence is okay. The public mindset, as it were, has been conditioned to accept horrific acts of violence as a routine part of their entertainment diet. Rape, on the other hand, is a cultural minefield and pretty much anytime rape takes place on a television screen it is within a larger, 'serious' context rather than a by-the-by action; the rape is usually part of some big plot arc (inciting action, motivation for revenge, etc). Violence and murder can be slotted in just about anywhere, in any format, in any genre.

I am having trouble thinking of a gaming scenario where rape would be addressed with any degree of sensitivity or maturity. What comes to mind is a schlocky Grand Theft Auto mod. Not sure games, as a medium, have the range to address cultural taboos with any kind of critical perspective just yet.

MaxTheReaper:

Shapsters:
Neither Rape nor Murder can be 'Justified', although I suppose a hero will need to kill, but thats not Murder. Anyways, at what point in a game does this hero need to walk up to a woman, grab her, drag her to his apartment and sexually assault her? Its wrong and unnecessary.

How is killing human beings not murder?
I was fairly sure that was the definition.

No, murder is a legal term and is different from manslaughter, self-defense and whatever "unmittelbarer Zwang" is called in English.

Ziren:

No, murder is a legal term and is different from manslaughter, self-defense and whatever "unmittelbarer Zwang" is called in English.

Isn't manslaughter accidentally killing another human being?

There is such a thing as evil.
Rape is included.

Erana:
There is such a thing as evil.
Rape is included.

Any action, up to and including genocide, is not inherently evil or good. That depends on context.
Furthermore, I would debate the existence of good and evil. They're human constructs that we use to rationalise things, not universal truths.

ninjanyne:
There are games that make us question are moral values, games that make us justify our actions
like "I killed him cause his a terrorist" or "self-defense" bottom line is you killed him for a cause or you simply wanted to.

Ah, but there's also games that glorify murdering normal civillians (Such as GTA IV or Manhunt). Are those games justifiable?

EDIT: TL;DR

a)Heinous acts = allowed IF justified
b)Rape can be justified
c)Unjustified murder is allowed in video games: Ča
conclusion)Hence either justified rape is allowed (b) OR unjustified rape is allowed (c)

This article was just plainly wrong and it's whole premiss is faulty. It works on the foundation that there are two types of heinous act, a justified and an unjustified heinous act. Murder and rape are both heinous acts yet murder can be justified but rape cannot. Here we hit our first hurdle. Rape, quite obviously, can be justified. Imagine the following hypothetical: Ayush the Space Cowboy has a nuclear device in every city in the world and the only way to prevent him from wiping out the entire population of the earth is to rape him. Is rape still unjustified in this circumstance? No. But in order to look at why we'll have to analyse what counts as justification.

It appears to me that the writer of the article was saying that the consequences of the murders in games are positive and that it's the consequence that justifies the murder. Thus, as long as the consequence of the action produces more happiness than abstaining from the action then the action is justified. Hence, raping Ayush the Space Cowboy would be justified as the happiness produced by the consequence, the survival of mankind, hugely outweighs the happiness that would be produced, by Ayush, if he were not raped and all of mankind were destroyed. To put this into context imagine murder in a video game. For instance, when I kill Lord Lucien in Fable 2 I commit an act of murder, yet the happiness brought to all of Albion through his death outweighs the happiness that Lord Lucien would feel were he left alive. This is why his murder is 'justified'.

But this argument from consequentialism becomes incredibly messy when we start looking at characters in video games such as Niko Bellic. Niko shoots the policeman to death (whilst, I might add, the policeman screams "Oh dear God I'm bleeding, I don't want to die.") and there's no grander reason than he wants to. If Niko 'dies' he'll just get straight back up at a hospital with no wounds. If the policeman dies the policeman will die. The consequence of Niko shooting the police officer is the death of the police officer and the continuation of Niko, but the consequence of Niko abstaining from shooting the police officer is the continuation of both Niko and the police officer. So, from a consequentialist point of view, Niko shouldn't shoot police officers. And yet he does. And it is seen as acceptable. So why is unjustified, no, despicable murder (which the author of the article admits is worse than rape) fine in video games but not despicable rape? How is RapeLay any worse than GTA?

Locque:

Erana:
There is such a thing as evil.
Rape is included.

Any action, up to and including genocide, is not inherently evil or good. That depends on context.
Furthermore, I would debate the existence of good and evil. They're human constructs that we use to rationalise things, not universal truths.

Normally, I'd agree with the whole, "good and evil are constructs" but...
No.
Even in cultures where a husband is expected to kidnap and have sex with a new bride, no matter her will...
Just no.
There is a difference between accepting other cultures and treating them with the distance one does with an animal eating its own young. We're social creatures, and we must follow social rules. Sure, good and evil is relative to the society, but whether or not you want to admit it, you're a part of this culture, and if you don't believe that rape is wrong, then you're a sick, disgusting person.
So if you want to participate in modern Western society, get with the program, or get out.

Erana:

Normally, I'd agree with the whole, "good and evil are constructs" but...
No.
Even in cultures where a husband is expected to kidnap and have sex with a new bride, no matter her will...
Just no.
There is a difference between accepting other cultures and treating them with the distance one does with an animal eating its own young. We're social creatures, and we must follow social rules. Sure, good and evil is relative to the society, but whether or not you want to admit it, you're a part of this culture, and if you don't believe that rape is wrong, then you're a sick, disgusting person.
So if you want to participate in modern Western society, get with the program, or get out.

There is no logic to be analysed in this post. It is equatable to you posting "Some cultures and people say rape is right. My culture and people say rape is wrong. Therefore rape is wrong." It's just pointless. There's no reason to post that since it isn't an argument.

MaxTheReaper:

Ziren:

No, murder is a legal term and is different from manslaughter, self-defense and whatever "unmittelbarer Zwang" is called in English.

Isn't manslaughter accidentally killing another human being?

More like "causing the death of another person through carelessnes". Also, here in Germany (don't know about anywhere else) a murder charge is dropped to manslaughter if a couple of conditions are met, such as the killing not being planned, not having taken place to cover up another crime and a couple of others.

BGH122:

Erana:

Normally, I'd agree with the whole, "good and evil are constructs" but...
No.
Even in cultures where a husband is expected to kidnap and have sex with a new bride, no matter her will...
Just no.
There is a difference between accepting other cultures and treating them with the distance one does with an animal eating its own young. We're social creatures, and we must follow social rules. Sure, good and evil is relative to the society, but whether or not you want to admit it, you're a part of this culture, and if you don't believe that rape is wrong, then you're a sick, disgusting person.
So if you want to participate in modern Western society, get with the program, or get out.

There is no logic to be analysed in this post. It is equatable to you posting "Some cultures and people say rape is right. My culture and people say rape is wrong. Therefore rape is wrong." It's just pointless. There's no reason to post that since it isn't an argument.

`

And you just posted a straw-man fallacy.
If you need to simplify my post, it goes: "Some cultures say rape is right. This culture says rape is wrong. If you want to participate in this culture, but believe that rape is right, then by this society's standards, you are not properly participating. Therefore, if you want to participate in this culture, then you need to conform to society's standards, or not participate in this society."

That is a logically sound argument. You can write a logical proof for that. Whether it is "right or wrong" is a matter of personal opinion, but it is logical.

As a dedicated /b/tard, I think I speak for most of us when I say that you can only be a hero if rape is involved.

This article really hits the nail on the head. In most circumstances, someone who kills is no better than someone who rapes - they are both crimes of violence that destroy (literally or otherwise) the lives of their victims. But in the real world, soldiers and the like are faced with the necessity of killing their enemy - enemies that would kill them given the chance. Rape however serves no goal other than its inherent violence. A soldier should not rape even if he is required to kill - the crimes are no lesser, but one is a justifiable fact of life and the other a simple expression of individual barbarity and the wish to cause harm to another human being.

In my view, if you were to ban games featuring rape, then games where the objective is cold, calculated murder (Manhunt) should also be banned. Heck, in KOTOR you can kill for the hell of it and I don't remember much outrage concerning that.

Murder has been shown to be accepted as an inevitablity in society where as rape has not been. ((And personally should not be.))

Murder victims don't suffer PTSD for the rest of their lives, Rape Victims do.

I can imagine a thousand things worse than being killed by the way, that the writer of that article can't only shows what a limited imagination he has... By the way, the game in question uses Rape as a pornographic device, and psychology of how people tend to develop sexual fetishes simply makes it a bad idea for simulated rape to be an available medium of pornography.

Anyway, want to have rape in games and argue that it's no big deal since murder is in games? I say we institute life imprisonment or the death penalty for all rapist then.

I'm not afraid of some psycho killer coming at me with laser guns and chainsaws, but I do have to worry about some misogynistic guy trying to violate me if he thinks he can get away with it, and if one ever tries I hope he can live without his testicles because I'll rip them off and dig my nails into his eye sockets :)

By the way I find it interesting that almost all of the people arguing in favor of simulated rape are male. I guess men just don't have to worry about it as often.

Tenmar:

Malygris:
Rape, on the other hand, can ever be justified.

Just pointing out the typo.

I'm not sure if this is irrelevent now, but I don't think that was a spelling mistake;t was supposed to say never - the article was about how the writer believes that, although censorship is bad, there should be a judgement based on context in the game. His point was also that there should be a distinction between rape and murder, since murder could be in self-defence, for example, whereas rape cannot be justified (this specific example wasn't in the article by the way).

On topic, I completely agree with the article. I know it's been said alot, but my obsessive compulsive side needed to sort that out ^.

Valentine82:
By the way I find it interesting that almost all of the people arguing in favor of simulated rape are male. I guess men just don't have to worry about it as often.

I don't think that rape is ever right regardless of gender. The men out there that are raped have a harder time of being understood by the public that it actually does happen and its as much a violation to them as when it happens to women.

Rape and murder are seperate entities, they are not comparable. For a start.

For those attempting to play devils advocate torture is a far better analogy. These games dont attempt to make you the hero, they are puerile titillation for impotent men.

The logic of the point is here:-

Valentine82:
the game in question uses Rape as a pornographic device, and psychology of how people tend to develop sexual fetishes simply makes it a bad idea for simulated rape to be an available medium of pornography.)

The same train of reasoning would apply to a torture sim. This is all completely ignoring that killing in a computer game isnt murder it is a component of a games rules. (BTW you do have to run people over in GTA sometimes they drop money :D)

Harbinger_:

Valentine82:
By the way I find it interesting that almost all of the people arguing in favor of simulated rape are male. I guess men just don't have to worry about it as often.

I don't think that rape is ever right regardless of gender. The men out there that are raped have a harder time of being understood by the public that it actually does happen and its as much a violation to them as when it happens to women.

The thing is, Women Raping Men is rare partly because it's difficult. Women are sometimes raped by other women, men are sometimes raped by other men, but normally cross gender rape involves a woman being violated by a man. If by men being raped you're referring to willing underaged male students on the other hand, I don't consider that rape at all, and think we need a new term for that sort of thing.

I'm aware of only a few cases in which women have actually raped men, most of them involving some sort of bondage and more than a few involving viagra... Anyway, yeah, when I suggest the death penalty or life in prison for rapist, I mean for any person who physically forces himself or herself onto another and sexually violates him/her. The definitions would need to be hammered out of course (that's part of why Rape Laws are so lax, it's because they're so vague).

LimaBravo:
Rape and murder are seperate entities, they are not comparable. For a start.

For those attempting to play devils advocate torture is a far better analogy. These games dont attempt to make you the hero, they are puerile titillation for impotent men.

The logic of the point is here:-

Valentine82:
the game in question uses Rape as a pornographic device, and psychology of how people tend to develop sexual fetishes simply makes it a bad idea for simulated rape to be an available medium of pornography.)

The same train of reasoning would apply to a torture sim. This is all completely ignoring that killing in a computer game isnt murder it is a component of a games rules. (BTW you do have to run people over in GTA sometimes they drop money :D)

Typically torture in videogames acts as an outlet for the same type of sadistic tendencies that drives one to enjoy murder in videogames. I'm not aware of an actual torture sim and if there were a game to depict torture the way some of our entertainment media does (IE Saw, Hostel) I would be concerned.

Rape is in a different field of human experience, driven largely by lust and power (typically power over women). People are more likely to enact sexual fantasies than violent fantasies as well, these are just a few reasons rape should not be depicted graphically and/or pornographically in videogames.

To me, rape's no big deal. I am a Nihilist, however, so nothing's a big deal for me. Except Michael Bay.

Fair point actually. I didnt clarify the distinction there.

And thus the media have another 'video games are evil' bandwagon to jump on. I thought they'd been too quite lately.

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