Left 4 Dead 2: Why the Boycott Is a Good Thing

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I wonder would it be a valid argument and quell the protesters if Valve(everyone working in the company) just ran around screaming:

"We need the money! We can't go working for free anymore! I want to feed my kids!"

And to all of those who are talking about tf2's great support- I assume you're refering to the PC support, cause so far theres been NOTHING for xbox gamers.

Xan Krieger:
I just wish Valve would direct it's attention to the series that brought it so much fame in the first place. Give me either Half-life 2 episode 3 or Half-Life 3 before Left 4 Dead 2.

Seriously, this has been said so many times before.

Valve is divided into teams. There are individual teams for Valve's products. The Left4Dead team is separate from the Half-Life team. Them making Left4Dead 2 has no influence on the development of Half-Life:Episode 3.

bue519:
Great article. I just don't understand why they couldn't put the stuff in Left4dead2 into an expansion pack.
The only thing it adds is new ugly survivors skins, a few new maps, and one new playable infected. The new weapons are at best just reskins.

I'm willing to bet that you haven't looked into Left4Dead 2 at all.

The new survivors being ugly is a matter of opinion. Not that it matters, as you can play as the old survivors anyways. There are 5 new campaigns, and they all contain different game play mechanics than those featured in the old maps. There are 3 new playable infected, though only the Charger has been shown so far. I don't understand how you could call the new weapons reskins, as we haven't seen them yet. Plus they are adding melee weapons, and calling those reskins makes no sense.

There are also a variety of other new additions being added to the game. There are new types of common infected that have traits that differ from the other common infected. There is an all new game mode, in addition to the 4 game modes from the original. There have been major enhancements to the AI director, which can now alter map structure based on the players performance.

The content in Left4Dead 2 heavily outweighs the content of the original game.

Xan Krieger:
I just wish Valve would direct it's attention to the series that brought it so much fame in the first place. Give me either Half-life 2 episode 3 or Half-Life 3 before Left 4 Dead 2.

HIIIIIIIOOOOOOOOOO

you've got the right idea.

I'm sceptical about the fact that L4D2 is being released within a year (round about) of its original.

But then again I trust valve enough to give them some rope on this one and see what they do with it.

Internet Kraken:

bue519:
Great article. I just don't understand why they couldn't put the stuff in Left4dead2 into an expansion pack.
The only thing it adds is new ugly survivors skins, a few new maps, and one new playable infected. The new weapons are at best just reskins.

I'm willing to bet that you haven't looked into Left4Dead 2 at all.

The new survivors being ugly is a matter of opinion. Not that it matters, as you can play as the old survivors anyways. There are 5 new campaigns, and they all contain different game play mechanics than those featured in the old maps. There are 3 new playable infected, though only the Charger has been shown so far. I don't understand how you could call the new weapons reskins, as we haven't seen them yet. Plus they are adding melee weapons, and calling those reskins makes no sense.

There are also a variety of other new additions being added to the game. There are new types of common infected that have traits that differ from the other common infected. There is an all new game mode, in addition to the 4 game modes from the original. There have been major enhancements to the AI director, which can now alter map structure based on the players performance.

The content in Left4Dead 2 heavily outweighs the content of the original game.

This. I have had 6 months worth of play out of L4D already, and I am still not finished with it...I've had my moneys worth. What is being added justifies a sequel, in my opinion...I know I have bought sequels to games in the past that offered far less new content than is being promised here.

All arguments against Left 4 Dead 2 are pointless. We need the sequels as fast and as much as possible, so we can see the clever name Valve thinks up when Left 4 Dead 4 comes out. Seriously. Think of the bigger picture, boycotters.

"Looking at the DLC provided for their other major multiplayer title, Team Fortress 2, the argument loses its weight. Every time they've added a weapon, update, power-up or drop item, it has 'changed everything'. Any new variable you add to a game changes the whole landscape, so it's easy to see that as a platitude rather than a real response."

You are not a professional game developer. Your name is Mr. Pancakes. Your argument is invalid.

hailmagus:

Xan Krieger:
I just wish Valve would direct it's attention to the series that brought it so much fame in the first place. Give me either Half-life 2 episode 3 or Half-Life 3 before Left 4 Dead 2.

HIIIIIIIOOOOOOOOOO

you've got the right idea.

Internet Kraken:

Seriously, this has been said so many times before.

Valve is divided into teams. There are individual teams for Valve's products. The Left4Dead team is separate from the Half-Life team. Them making Left4Dead 2 has no influence on the development of Half-Life:Episode 3.

bue519:
Great article. I just don't understand why they couldn't put the stuff in Left4dead2 into an expansion pack.
The only thing it adds is new ugly survivors skins, a few new maps, and one new playable infected. The new weapons are at best just reskins.

New AI director and a new melee system. Basically the game is getting a pretty big overhaul and an update would have pissed a lot of people off much like the TF2 updates.

bue519:
Also considering that they havn't released an SDK yet for the game-

Yes they have. Ok granted it's still in "beta" but it still works just fine and once it's out of beta it's cross-compatible with L4D2. It's been out for a whole month I have no clue why nobody knows about it, aside from being blinded by rage.

Also regarding this boycott. Ok fine, so they're expressing their rights. Perfectly fine. However, as former VP Hubert H. Humphrey said, "The right to be heard does not automatically include the right to be taken seriously." And since this protest was built out of a knee-jerk reaction with a manifesto that has been proven to be all but frivolous, I'm not taking it seriously.

It's already been established that they can't just wedge the code into an "expansion" or whatever. They've already said they're hoping to make it so that at some point L4D1 and 2 will be able to exchange content freely (aside from technical differences). In effect they're planning on doing everything the boycotters have accused them of not doing even though the game isn't even out yet.

I mean sure, some people just don't have the money to spend on games these days, and that's fine. That's an understandable reason to not buy a game. But that's really not what we're talking about here.

Kwil:

bue519:
Yeah, its just too bad that people don't play the game for the campaigns. They play it for the gameplay. Also considering that they havn't released an SDK yet for the game, and their making sequel also makes very little sense. Besides, havn't you thought of how this might split the community. Besides I really don't feel like installing two versions of pretty much the same game.
EDIT: Just look at TF2. They released new weapons, new maps and new modes. ALL FOR FREE!! They even added hats, HATS!

You don't get it. Core engine changes. TF2's new weapons are fairly minor, with the most complex so far being the huntsman because it involves sticking corpses to the wall and being able to light the arrows on fire. Combining weapons like that is new, and interesting, but also pretty simple as it tends to revolve around a single "if-then" line.

So let's go through some of the changes they've announced:
New maps. Meh. Whether 2 or 20, could have been done through DLC.
New models. Same. DLC fodder.
New weapons. Okay, some minor amount of coding here, but still DLC worthy.
Melee weapons. Well, this is a little bit more significant, but mostly adjusting the range and ammo of current weapons could handle it as a cheap hack. Still DLC.
New infected. Depending on abilities, probably DLC fodder. From what we've seen, there's nothing hugely new in the new infected we've seen so far. However, a particularly "intelligent" type of infected may be beyond the realm of DLC, if they have any, but nothing announced so far sounds like it.

Director choosing which infected to spawn based on team tactics/performance. Okay. This is new. L4D had the director choosing based on a timer and general location. Play through a few times and you come to realize that. Having the director being able to look at your team and determine from the tactics your using what type of infected might be best? That's a fairly signifcant upgrade. That implies the director is able to recognize certain tactics and figure out how to respond. Possible DLC but probably beyond what you'd get there as it's changing core architecture. (position/time placement to analysis-react placement)

Dynamic weather. Big. Current maps are not designed for weather of any sort. Go through the developers commentary and you'll hear the effort they went to to get the lighting just right. Dynamic weather means that first of all the game has to be able to differentiate between inside and outside.. right now I'm pretty sure it doesn't, because there's no need to do so.. outside is just a bigger inside with a prettier roof. Now, make that weather changeable? That's a significant change not only to the architecture, but to the balance, and to every current map. Probably outside the realm of DLC.

Director adjusting weather based on performance. Back to the Director choosing which infected to spawn. Analysis of team performance. Probably less difficult than choosing the infected to be honest, but still a significant add on to the AI of the game.

Director adjusting maps. Say what? That is.. huge. Take a look at some of the custom map jobs available for TF2.. it's not easy for humans to create decently balanced maps. For the director to be able to do so on the fly, and balanced toward your performance? That's massive. That means adjusting some core code of the game. And it takes maps designed with areas that can be modded by the AI director. Well past the realm of DLC.

In comparison, the biggest change to TF2 was payload mode, with a moving control point. It rather pales in comparison to the scope of the changes they're making to the Director for L4D2

Wow. I didn't even know that was they were doing anything with the AI Director, let alone something so massive. You'd think that would be the thing Valve point out more in its defense, rather than the new damage to the normal infected that, while cool, everyone could live without.

Ha! Good luck w/ that boycott ya friggin' nerds! I really am excited for L4D2(too many numbers!) and am totally going to buy it on release day. New maps, new infected, new survivors, new weapons, and fire bullets make this a must-buy for me!

HobbesMkii:

What's interesting about this is that this is sort of specific to companies of high caliber and who have a history of treating each game as a going concern. Compared to other developers (anything with EA on front of it, for instance)

Now hold on, let's be fair to EA; they're getting better at not sucking. Like with the whole "EA Partners" thing where they fund and publish the games and the developers get all the say on what goes into the games. Now I can dig that!

For better or worse, this seems a lot like Rainbow Six Vegas and Vegas 2. Vegas 2 one-upped its predecessor in most aspects, but I doubt it sold very well. It was just too much of the same thing too soon.

I think market forces might play out similar here. L4D owners won't see any point in upgrading, and newcomers will split between the new game and it's half-priced parent. It's the inherent problem in multiplayer-focused games.

As for the boycott, groups like these are important for highlighting issues in the industry. Valve's just getting burned because they set their bar so high.

1. Holy shit the guy's last name is PANCAKES! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mGYnq4L1Swo
2. I just want to point out the irony that a new CoD game, MW2, has taken longer to develop than a Valve game.

I still think Valve made the boycott group to drum up publicity for the game.

I've never bought a Valve game, but from what I've heard of their business practices from their devoted fans, I had a respect for them. I feel that the boycott is on the right track.

What Valve promised to do and what they are doing are completely different things, and being in sales, that's should be against the law. If somebody in an appliance store told you that they were going to sell you a washing machine and tune it up every two months as part of the deal, they couldn't just say "We're not going to do that, but we'll let you buy a new, slightly different one. Look, it's shiny." There needs to be some accountability for Valve.

fix-the-spade:
You didn't like Ghost Bear's Legacy? For shame! You'll have to elaborate on that.

No, actually I really liked it, although I could've done without the underwater mission. It wasn't as good as the original but definitely a worthwhile expansion.

Fans really are just unappreciative, we are all gonna be getting a great game in L4D2.

If Valve wants to make a sequel for a kickass game of their's than I see no reason to complain. And, "but they've started development on it too soon after the release of the original L4D", then you can't complain when they take forever, making the next Half-Life episode!

I really think we shouldn't boycott L4D2. In fact, I think we should all buy several copies of it.

This reason comes from a simple equation: Buying L4D2= Giving Valve more money to make Episode 3

Whenever the boy cotters talk to me, all I hear is "WAAAAH I WANT MORE FREE STUFF"

bue519:
Besides, havn't you thought of how this might split the community. Besides I really don't feel like installing two versions of pretty much the same game.

I never really got this argument. Good multiplayer games will always be played! Lots of people are still playing CS 1.6, Quake 2, Starcraft, etc. What makes you think that people will stop playing L4D?

I still find this L4D2 boycott incredibly stupid.

There's a lot of stuff in L4D2. There's a new A.I director, 3 new special infected, some witches will walk around the map, Tons of new maps, The A.I director will change the landscape and weather of the level according to how you've been playing, a brand new game mode, superior zombie dismemberment 4 new survivors and Melee weapons

And I'm sure they'll be adding even more.

Malygris:

fix-the-spade:
You didn't like Ghost Bear's Legacy? For shame! You'll have to elaborate on that.

No, actually I really liked it, although I could've done without the underwater mission. It wasn't as good as the original but definitely a worthwhile expansion.

I was a die-hard Battletech fan, and loved the Mechwarrior games, and Clan Ghost Bear was always my favourite even before the game. The underwater missions sucked ass though and nearly broke me. =)

But I too am curious of your heartfelt boycott, and it's gotta be a lot more intertesting than the rest of this thread. ;)

As for l4d2, well, I think it's too soon, but I'll buy it. I don't think it is possible for it to be an expansion. That said, I hope there is at least a little more l4d content. Maybe another map or *gasp* a new character. THAT would mess with people. :)

I will miss Francis and Zoey. :(

"I HATE SEQUELS" should be the tagline for l4d2. ;)

bue519:
Great article. I just don't understand why they couldn't put the stuff in Left4dead2 into an expansion pack.
The only thing it adds is new ugly survivors skins, a few new maps, and one new playable infected. The new weapons are at best just reskins.

They're changing too many of the inner-workings for a simple expansion. An expansion is, after-all, little more than new content being added to the current game engine. The updates that TF2 gets or the Survival Pack for L4D are "expansions". They don't change any of the core workings of the game, they just added a couple new weapons or a new gameplay mode.

With L4D2 though, they're changing a lot of the mechanics to the game. So while the game might look and play the same on a gameplay level, on a programming and coding level it's a completely different game all-together.

l Ancient l:
I still find this L4D2 boycott incredibly stupid.

There's a lot of stuff in L4D2.
There's a new A.I director,update
3 new special infected maybe update, what are the new infected? Remakes of the original ones?,
some witches will walk around the map Wow, walking! Update,
Tons of new maps depends on how many, but I'll give you that,
The A.I director will change the landscape and weather of the level according to how you've been playing, and that can't be an update....why?
a brand new game mode update,
superior zombie dismemberment how can that not be an update? A new game for more detailed dismemberment? C'mon man! That's practically EA of them!
4 new survivors eh, reskins, doesn't matter too much
and Melee weapons that could be an update, though I'm this and that for some reason

Alot of that stuff could just be updated to the original, though I'm pretty sure if VALVe made this a simple expansion pack (Like "Left 4 Dead, Back 4 More!" or something) than the whole community would be eating it up with much more gusto.

You've got to admit though, over 9,000 30,000 people angry at VALVe, one of the most prestigeous game companies in the world, isn't anything to scoff at.

Anyone who thinks thta Valve didn't think about the backlash before anouncing this game is so fucking retarded that they don't deserve to play it anyway. They'll probably sell like 3 million units of L4D1 on the xbox platform alone, so Valve might end up just using the game to make money to develope other titles that they probably don't have money for right now like EP3 and Portal 2.

Valve is such an interesting company for me to follow since I've loved so many of their games - yet I still dislike the company itself quite a bit.

I loved Half life 2, Counterstrike Source and LFD.

But I remember buying HL2 at launch and it not activating properly - - terrible fanboy service there!
I remember the game needing to be patched shortly afterward because it was stuttering on high-end machines...
I remember for an entire YEAR the friends application of steam just didn't work for me or my friends - needed to use a 3rd party app to play with friends on Counterstrike.... kind of a joke.
And I think Gabe Newell is a quite a ...loser ...for his PS3 comments about it being 'too hard' to develop for. If every machine out there was supposed to have PC type architecture to make it easy for ol' Gabe, what's the point of multiple platforms in the first place? I equate his comments to whining ... because that's what he's doing.. whining.

It's funny how LFD's add-on content is held back for Xbox live limitations, because no such limitations exist on Sony's console for downloadable content. ZING GABE!

Kwil:
Dynamic weather. Big. Current maps are not designed for weather of any sort. Go through the developers commentary and you'll hear the effort they went to to get the lighting just right. Dynamic weather means that first of all the game has to be able to differentiate between inside and outside.. right now I'm pretty sure it doesn't, because there's no need to do so.. outside is just a bigger inside with a prettier roof. Now, make that weather changeable? That's a significant change not only to the architecture, but to the balance, and to every current map. Probably outside the realm of DLC.

Sorry to rain on your parade here... but it uses "func_precipitaton" brushes to distinguish between where to add rain and where not to... the only thing that changes is the ability to turn them on and off, and maybe some of the water particle effects and thunder sounds.
So no... still update worthy.

Striker1246:
And to all of those who are talking about tf2's great support- I assume you're refering to the PC support, cause so far theres been NOTHING for xbox gamers.

Exactly how it should be :D

I think people have a problem with comprehending the fact that video game developing IS a business. It's even harder with a developer like Valve, because, well, they're sort of nice.

PSNFeisar:
Valve is such an interesting company for me to follow since I've loved so many of their games - yet I still dislike the company itself quite a bit.

I loved Half life 2, Counterstrike Source and LFD.

But I remember buying HL2 at launch and it not activating properly - - terrible fanboy service there!
I remember the game needing to be patched shortly afterward because it was stuttering on high-end machines...
I remember for an entire YEAR the friends application of steam just didn't work for me or my friends - needed to use a 3rd party app to play with friends on Counterstrike.... kind of a joke.
And I think Gabe Newell is a quite a ...loser ...for his PS3 comments about it being 'too hard' to develop for. If every machine out there was supposed to have PC type architecture to make it easy for ol' Gabe, what's the point of multiple platforms in the first place? I equate his comments to whining ... because that's what he's doing.. whining.

It's funny how LFD's add-on content is held back for Xbox live limitations, because no such limitations exist on Sony's console for downloadable content. ZING GABE!

Take you for instance. You're obviously a fan for the PS3, for whatever reason. That's fine. That's not why I'm quoting you. I'm quoting you because your comment lends to the belief that Valve has some sort of duty to develop for the PS3. As a business, Valve chooses what systems to make their games for based on the work/profit margin. If they feel that the work isn't worth the potential profit, why bother? Is his reasoning whining? Maybe so. But, I'm fairly certain of this: he didn't make that comment to bash the PS3. He made the comment because he was asked, whether by the journalist, his wife, or tons of PS3 owners who were pissed at the shitty version of The Orange Box. He was simply expressing his reasoning because someone was curious. Whether you agree with it or not is irrelevant. They don't HAVE to develop on the PS3, and as of right now, they aren't going to. I don't see anything evil in that and I'm not sure why most people do. They're in THIS particular business because they love it, but they're in business in general to make a profit.

On a similar note, I think the worst thing Valve could've done was release the TF2 updates for free. Partly because I'm a bitter XBox owner who has yet to experience them, and partly because whenever you give someone something for free, they get the illusion that they deserve it. Take the Halo maps Bungie released. Every map pack for Halo 2 was, eventually, released for free. Now tons of fans are pissed because Bungie has said that the likelihood of Legendary and Mythic maps being released for free is slim. Those Halo players don't have some claim on the map packs. They don't deserve them. Yet, because Bungie previously released them for free, they think they do. It fits here. Valve fans are furious that the company they love, who release TF2 updates for free, who released 5 games for the price of one, have made a move that can easily be seen as profit motivated. For some reason they think, they really do believe, that they deserve all the content of L4D2, a game that packs the content of a new release whether you wish to admit it or not, for free or a reduced price. Why? Simply because they've been babied and coddled in the past.

Ultimately I think it comes down to PC/console.

They bring up TF2, which is great for PC, but Xbox hasn't seen a major update... ever. All this new stuff that they got? Not on Xbox. The survival mode for L4D? Achievements for PC, none for Xbox. On PC you get expansion packs and upgrades. On consoles you get whole new games. Valve is taking a console approach to this, and as a result they're pleasing half the market while pissing off the other half. To which I say boo hoo, this is no different from someone whining that Halo should be on PS3 so let's boycott Microsoft. Consoles are where gaming is. Don't argue, that's where it is. Even if PCs are 75% of the market, where to advertisers aim? Where do companies focus? What do the MASSES focus on? Consoles. So as long as that is the case, taking a console route is the logical route. Focusing only on PCs would be like Toshiba continuing to release HD DVDs. Do people still have HD DVD players? Yes. Do they still use them? Yes. But do you gear your strategy towards a format that maintains the minority of the population? No.

And the argument that Valve does good and doesn't need money and should release this as updates, that's fucking stupid beyond belief. That's like saying we should all be bound for the rest of our lives to be at the beck and call of every employer we've ever had, for no pay.

Welcome to the real world. Money rules, deal with it or get out of the way.

Jumplion:
Stuff about L4D2 only needing to be an update

Jumplion, meet Kwil. He'll answer your concerns in an intelligent manner.

Kwil:

You don't get it. Core engine changes. TF2's new weapons are fairly minor, with the most complex so far being the huntsman because it involves sticking corpses to the wall and being able to light the arrows on fire. Combining weapons like that is new, and interesting, but also pretty simple as it tends to revolve around a single "if-then" line.

So let's go through some of the changes they've announced:
New maps. Meh. Whether 2 or 20, could have been done through DLC.
New models. Same. DLC fodder.
New weapons. Okay, some minor amount of coding here, but still DLC worthy.
Melee weapons. Well, this is a little bit more significant, but mostly adjusting the range and ammo of current weapons could handle it as a cheap hack. Still DLC.
New infected. Depending on abilities, probably DLC fodder. From what we've seen, there's nothing hugely new in the new infected we've seen so far. However, a particularly "intelligent" type of infected may be beyond the realm of DLC, if they have any, but nothing announced so far sounds like it.

Director choosing which infected to spawn based on team tactics/performance. Okay. This is new. L4D had the director choosing based on a timer and general location. Play through a few times and you come to realize that. Having the director being able to look at your team and determine from the tactics your using what type of infected might be best? That's a fairly signifcant upgrade. That implies the director is able to recognize certain tactics and figure out how to respond. Possible DLC but probably beyond what you'd get there as it's changing core architecture. (position/time placement to analysis-react placement)

Dynamic weather. Big. Current maps are not designed for weather of any sort. Go through the developers commentary and you'll hear the effort they went to to get the lighting just right. Dynamic weather means that first of all the game has to be able to differentiate between inside and outside.. right now I'm pretty sure it doesn't, because there's no need to do so.. outside is just a bigger inside with a prettier roof. Now, make that weather changeable? That's a significant change not only to the architecture, but to the balance, and to every current map. Probably outside the realm of DLC.

Director adjusting weather based on performance. Back to the Director choosing which infected to spawn. Analysis of team performance. Probably less difficult than choosing the infected to be honest, but still a significant add on to the AI of the game.

Director adjusting maps. Say what? That is.. huge. Take a look at some of the custom map jobs available for TF2.. it's not easy for humans to create decently balanced maps. For the director to be able to do so on the fly, and balanced toward your performance? That's massive. That means adjusting some core code of the game. And it takes maps designed with areas that can be modded by the AI director. Well past the realm of DLC.

In comparison, the biggest change to TF2 was payload mode, with a moving control point. It rather pales in comparison to the scope of the changes they're making to the Director for L4D2

Armitage Shanks:

Jumplion:
Stuff about L4D2 only needing to be an update

Jumplion, meet Kwil. He'll answer your concerns in an intelligent manner.

Kwil:
Condense

Yeah, I read it, and some of his points are valid, however some things are off for me.

The first 5 things I feel are mainly all update or DLC as expansion worthy. New weapons and maps I'm iffy about, but models are no big deal and depending on the infected I don't think a suicide-boomer is enough of a difference.

I don't get how a simple upgrade to the AI director can't be implemented in the original, can't you just modify the original and upgrade that? I'll give him the based on tactics thing, but unless it's well shown I don't think it's quite enough to warrant an entire sequel, and it seems odd that you have to buy a game for an upgraded version of an AI director.

For dynamic weather, really? Dynamic weather is nothing new, is it really that hard to make it rain, foggy, or snow in Louisiana by a simple update? What, does the mud from the rain make you slip and slide and trip over everywhere? Unless the weather actually has an effect on the game, instead of being scenery, why can't that be an update?

Director adjusting weather according to team, that falls under paragraph 3 of this post. I still find it odd that you have to pay full price (I assume) for an updated AI director that should easily be updatable. That's what tons of companies do with their programs and such, they do little updates to their programs!

On the changing maps thing, it depends on how much it can change at once. Does it completely change your course every time you go on it? Or does it just switch areas that you can go into, like previously you could go into lot A but now you have to go into lot B and it goes back and forth? If it's the former, I'll give him that, but if it's the latter, then so what?

Now, I will say that I don't really expect this to be free, and I think it has more than enough content to warrant at least some money to be spent, but a full priced sequel doesn't seem warranted for upgrades behind the lot that you will never see and probably not see a difference in.

Jumplion:

Armitage Shanks:

Jumplion:
Stuff about L4D2 only needing to be an update

Jumplion, meet Kwil. He'll answer your concerns in an intelligent manner.

Kwil:
Condense

Double Condense

I haven't acquainted myself with the specifics of the sequel enough to respond to any of that with an informed opinion, but am I right in assuming you don't own/have not played the first L4D very much?

EDIT: Though it might look like it, I'm not trying to ignore your counter-arguments by asking an irrelevant question, I'm just leaving responses to Kwil or someone else who actually knows what they're talking about.

Armitage Shanks:
I haven't acquainted myself with the specifics of the sequel enough to respond to any of that with an informed opinion, but am I right in assuming you don't own/have not played the first L4D very much?

EDIT: Though it might look like it, I'm not trying to ignore your counter-arguments by asking an irrelevant question, I'm just leaving responses to Kwil or someone else who actually knows what they're talking about.

Nope, I do not own, nor have I ever played Left 4 Dead the original. I suppose that does invalidate a lot of what I have said over this issue, but I think that if an "outsider" can criticize VALVe and still have some valid points (which I believe I do) then something's a little iffy here.

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